Lilim and Malakim

By Emily K. Dresner (


I've been trying to get closer to 'how to say this' for about a week. The whole Malakim and Morality topics got the cogs in my brain turning.

I started with a few presumptions - WHICH MAY BE WRONG - that I worked with. And a warning... the logic here is off. I'm having problems getting it dead on.

On Lilim and Malakim

1. Malakim are demons. Thus, they cannot fall. The idea is that you cannot fall off the floor. This idea has been beaten to death in previous emails, along witht he rational, so if you don't subscribe to this, then don't go any farther. If you haven't heard it, I hoarde mail, and I have most of the argument archived.

2. The second is the specifications for "What are Lilim, exactly?" I haven't seen a conversation yet which really explores this except 'they are Demons', so I'm gonna take a wack at it. Here's some facts, though.

a. Lilim are children, one way or another, of Lilith.
b. No one else can make Lilim except Lilith.
c. Lilith is a direct human creation of God analagous to Adam.
d. Lilith's Word can be either Good or Evil.

I had originally made Lilim a variation on humans, making them first generation Man like Cain and Abel. Then I changed my mind, and decided to make them the opposite/analog of Malakim. I worked it out that they are the children of a direct creation of God, and in never Falling, can be considered Divine. "But Lilim are greedy little love buckets! They start in Hell!" you say. Well, I keep the following in mind:

a. Lilim have the choice of using their Geasa for good or evil.
b. Lilim don't change form when they go "Bright", not in power, not in dissonance, not in Celestial manifestation.
c. Lilim are not beholden at birth to a Demon Prince.
d. Lilim never Fall either. They just stay Lilim. e. Anyone can go to hell and stay there.

So what if.... Lilim are actually divine beings who live out their lives in Hell, like the Malakim being infernal living out their lives in heaven? Their power to Geas is no more evil then any other resonance power of any angel's, and the power only becomes evil when it is used in the process of bringing about evil ends. Much like the Malakim need to bathe themselves in blood is, in fact, evil, but good in the big picture.

Weird weird weird....

A bit about Lilith -

So what is Lilith? Well, she's a human made by God who walked out of the Garden of Eden of her own free will without waiting around to be tempted by Satan or eating from the Fruit of Knowledge. If one thinks about it, she's a Celestial Human, still more or less in her divine state, who didn't hang around to be cast out and forced into the trap of death and rebirth. She still has all of her powers given to her by God, and she passes a small subset of these along to her children. She's a "pure" human, which may in fact be on-par with a normal ArchAngel/Demon Prince, depending on what divine powers God felt to originally give his creation. (Fill in book of Angel Raziel and the Knowledge of God stuff here.)

By divine, in this case, I don't mean "Heavenly". I mean, up to par with the rest of the crowd. There's a difference. (I imagine a few others who have broken the cycle, and wander around scouting out Hell and the Marches, like Leonardo diVinci or whatnot... who figured out that they were still part of the Symphony and figured out how to give themselves access to it, and just stopped dying.)

On Good and Evil -

So I have this analogy =

Very bad Malakim, Discord-free.

Very good Malakim. Very good Malakim are likely to be consumed by Discord like any other demon trying to go Renegade.

Very bad Lilim. Very bad Lilim are likely to be consumed by Discord like any other angel Falling, from the whiplash of too harsh failed Geasa, to themselves and others. "Kill your wife," has a possibility of failing...
Very good Lilim, Discord-free, from using Geasa to help people do what they really want to do, or internalizing their Geasa to become oaths.

So what is going on?

I'm not sure. It looks like a Band/Choir is in the wrong place. :) Lilim only can go up, and Malakim are already down.

So there are these, when they get enough dissonance:

Lilim changes -> Bright Lilim or Malakim Malakim changes -> Bright Malakim or Lilim (starts imposing it's Oaths on others as well as itself.)

Change the bands/choir probably requires a little force reconstructive surgery.

It's the oath thing that gets me - and the fact that a Lilim can make a promise, geas itself, and it HAS to follow it or get dissonance.

So where do the Malakim come from? I don't know. Maybe Lilith plays both sides of the fence. It would permenantly solidify her power base - in Heaven and in Hell.

- Em, searching for a case of symmetry


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