in_nomine-digest Sunday, September 9 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2365 In this digest: IN> He who is like God Re: IN> He who is like God Re: IN> He who is like God IN> Iron Rev 4 -- one week warning Re: IN> [Successors] And The Bands Played On: A Post Armageddon Campaign Setting IN> In Nomine: Anime? Re: IN> Re: Peter Re: IN> In Nomine: Anime? Re: IN> Blackouts Re: IN> Re: Peter IN> The Angel of Passion IN> The Shipley Heresy IN> Angelic Nirvana Re: IN> Re: Peter IN> RE: Peter RE: IN> Angelic Nirvana Re: IN> In Nomine: Anime? Re: IN> The Ethereal Space Program Re: IN> RE: Peter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 20:29:10 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> He who is like God A friend of mine recently cued me into a strange interpretation of Revelations which downplays Celestial intervention in that the name "Michael" is not actually meant to speak of one of God's angels but actually God himself. Which led me to this little interpretation... "I command myself to split into so that I may look upon myself in all my glory." *Yves pops into existence* "Tell me my child, looking upon me, what is my name?" Yves: Hmmmmmm I think I shall name you Michael for you are he who is like God. "But am I not God?" Yves: Not as long as we are divided. "Very well." Michael seems like a very strange candidate for the Supreme Being given life. People have wondered about Yves, they've wondered about the Metatron, they've wondered about Eli, and they've even wondered about Lucifer but they never seem to wonder about Michael. Maybe it's because Michael is so...accesible. In truth Michael actually is nothing less than the Supreme Being and the Will of Heaven given life which should come as no shock to anyone since he defeated Lucifer fairly toot sweet despite not having a word until the Rebellion. If Michael wished tommorow to have the Word of say "Pikachu" he could however. While it might be comforting to know God is actually a fairly tough hombre with little tolerance for B.S. (pardon my langage) and determined to plow through Evil the most direct way, some people might have a few questions such as.... Why hasn't Michael ended the war toot sweet? Why hasn't Michael assumed his divine mandate? Why has Michael barred angels from the Higher Heavens? Why does he appear as a Seraph? Why is he hostile to Yves then? Why didn't he just @@*@* slap Dominic at his trial? Why Laurence? Kind of make the Baal duel pointless doesn't it? What about Gabriel? Answer 1. Michael could technically speaking wade down through Hell tommorow and carve his way to Lucifer's palace before cracking the skull of the Second Seraph wide open and declaring the war finsihed. Unfortunately Michael posseses his Mercurian attunement like of course the Deity was and recognizes that the Price of Peace is far too high at any point but one that he long ago figured out, catalyzed, and is still preparing for. Armageddon. 2. As for why Michael is "pretending" to be different than God in truth he's really not but operating on a myriad bit of levels he understands perfectly well that its' just more efficent this way. His focus is the War between Good and Evil which has become the focus of his Existence and the Quest for truth for all of his children.... Setting himself up as a King would just be too complicated and wouldn't encourage the type of Growth he needs to win this war? 3. Simply put humans are differently built than angels who are either "on" perfectly or "off" perfectly. A human in the Higher Heavens has faced the mundane conflict between good and evil moreso than the average angel does in 50 million years or so. Angels thus are better equipped as his SERVITORS rather than "children" to fight in the War though any of his children (saints) who want to enlist are perfectly okay in doing so in his book. Hence civilians stay behind enemy lines in the "safe world" The only exception was Uriel whom he thought would make a perfect soldier because he was so attuned to the HH but unfortunately he went beyond the call of his orders and needed to be discharged....he was an idiot not evil. The War just got to him 4. Michael actually appears a a blood stained old solider not a seraph but nobody seems to have noticed this just like Novalis the Cherub looks like a hippie chick. When you reach a certain powerlevel really it's just semantcis. As for being the first Seraph...he is...along with the first Malakim and Kyriotate....it just stuck. Some humans have figured it out though and said Michael is a choir above and before all choirs...the same choir Jesus was of. Very close if not QUITE right 5. Because Yves is getting soft and mystical that's why! The appearence of Kronos has greatly unnerved Yves because the First born Spirit (not angel) doesn't understand the necessity for the Demon Prince of Fate. Well Michael does and Yves better shape up and get to fighting him or things will get messy real soon for his side. "He's necessary for the War Yves." "BUT WHY MICHAEL!?" 6. Believe me when I say even God can be tempted While Dominic is a very fine functionary doing his job as an MP he unfortunately is scandelously afraid of his own minor misgivings. In effect Dominic is looking for the great and powerful truths of existence under rocks and around corners rather than in people's hearts where he so often finds fault. Michael's pure confidence and trust and honesty he mistook the faith for Pride...so Michael pardoned himself. Dominic is exactly in fact the reason Michael doesn't reveal himself, it would be shattering to him until Armageddon is passed and everyone is ready for all truths to be revealed. 7. If Michael is God that means he picked Laurence. Yes indeed and Michael thinks Laurence is a bit more steady as a champion of God than Uriel and less prone to mistaking belief for reality Laurence Michael thinks can be modified into the Champion he was to Heaven but without the pitfalls of his own hidden divinity and fanaticism to trip over. It doesn't hurt Laurence is willing to listen to Michael 24-7 when need be eithr 8. Not especially Baal admittadly has no chance against Michael despite the fact that as the Third Born Archangel he should by all rights be powerful enough to tear Michael close to shreds. That of course would be true were not Michael the sum of EVERYTHING Michael hving lived billions of years believes Baal is fairly salvagable as an Archangel he just needs to get his self confidence issues in check....hence Michael has his counselling sessions in bars about the only topic Baal can relate to on. But should Baal get to the fight...Michael will crush him toot sweet 9. Gabriel is Michael's voice piece for the majority of his prophecies because she's more trustworthy than Yves right now and communicating through her muddies up the message enough that people can honestly believe it's God communicating. Certainly it would pain Michael to lose Gabriel to falling but it pains him when ANYBODY falls so he must keep on giving her his prophecies and is doing what damage control he can. Eh life sucks, live with it. Thoughts? - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 01:14:32 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> He who is like God It might amuse you to know that in the French game, INS/MV, "Michel" the Archangel of War is actually a converted viking some thousand years old, though he is indeed the toughest scrapper in Heaven. (He also has links with his old viking friends, though he keeps those fairly quiet.) The real Mikael, "Who Is Like God" -- is Yves. Just another name. ;) In the big fight with Satan during the Fall, Gabriel (with a big fiery sword) did the actual fighting. (Gabriel has vanished since, under a lot of circumstances which I won't go into here.) But Mikael is Yves, and Yves is Mikael. Explains a lot, no? Genevieve Cogman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 20:09:18 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> He who is like God At 08:29 PM 9/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >Yves: Hmmmmmm I think I shall name you Michael for you are he who is like God. Interesting. Very interesting. There's an interesting factoid that a lot of people forget, though: In many (I daren't say most, though I remember it to be true) interpretations, the name Michael is a -question-. Not "He who is like God", but "Who is like God?". (In many interpretations, that question also has an answer, which is "Nobody".) Just a thought. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:02:57 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: IN> Iron Rev 4 -- one week warning Since a lot of folks seem to be taken by the "Successors" thread, I wanted to remind everyone who wishes to participate that you have only one week left to craft your Iron Rev 4 "Special Lyric Edition" seed. The deadline for submission is Saturday, Aug 15, 11:59 pm. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:57:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> [Successors] And The Bands Played On: A Post Armageddon Campaign Setting Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:04:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> [Successors] And The Bands Played On: A Post Armageddon Campaign Setting >This is in no way subtle attempt to inspire a certain >unnamed individual to write him up or give tips on >writing him up. Nope, not at all. (Offstage) WHUMP! "ARRGH! Not ANOTHER proposal! I have five going on at once right now ... and that's not even including the net.book!" "Shall I toss it, then?" "Yes... no. Gimme the precis, at least." "You sure? That's how you got sucked into doing the AA of Steam..." "Just read the bloody thing out loud." Fine, fine. Hmm. It's a suggestion for writing up Sparky as a Prince - with no real personality change." Pause. "Boss?" "Tanj dammit." (Sigh) "Fine. Put it on the pile, underneath the latest Iron Rev entry and the Dunkirk Tether." ;) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 07/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 20:53:14 +1200 From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: IN> In Nomine: Anime? What on earth is going on here? I just browsed the site to see that SJ is converting IN for some kind of Japanimation rules? Why? Can someone please tell me why? In Nomine: Ancient Times. Extended write ups of Eli, Jordi, Jean, Marc and all the other Superiors who got the shaft in the Superiors books. How about some more major Adventures. How about an In Nomine: Backwards source book? I can't believe that the demand for an Anime conversion was so high that these other ideas were ignored or not even considered. The EPG coming next year? Kick Ass! That rocks. Someone tell me about this Anime thing. It might fit the genre well, but why on earth are they doing a source book around it??? It just doesn't add up. I mean I can understand doing a GURPS: Anime then adding GURPS In Nomine to it..... but adapting the main system? Alex _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: 09 Sep 2001 11:42:14 +0100 From: "Richard C Hanton-Rutherford" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Peter >>At 9:32 AM +0100 9/8/01, Richard C Hanton-Rutherford wrote: >>>However, why did an essentially Jewish sect need to go to such >>>lengths to atract Gentiles? Because they'd been kicked out of the >>>synagogue, persecuted and disowned for their heretical beliefs. It >>>keeps coming back to this, I'm afraid. And no, I don't believe >>>Jesus was stoned by Jews, but there are enough accounts to suggest > >>>that plenty of Christians were. >> >>Forgive me, but what does this *possibly* have to do with anything? >> >>This isn't "slightly off topic," it's a positive *veer.* Forgive _me_, but it's a response to a direct criticism of my previous posting made by Jo Hart. It is entirely relevant to the comments she made, and I would appreciate being allowed to defend my concepts. Richie H-R - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 07:39:30 -0400 From: Harris Bias Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Anime? >What on earth is going on here? I just browsed the site to see that >SJ is converting IN for some kind of Japanimation rules? Your words betray you. Firstly, look at the page again. This is a 32 page splatbook with no rules in it, it's AFAIK setting and style guidelines. >Why? Can someone please tell me why? > >In Nomine: Ancient Times. >Extended write ups of Eli, Jordi, Jean, Marc and all the other >Superiors who got the shaft in the Superiors books. >How about some more major Adventures. >How about an In Nomine: Backwards source book? All of these things take time. The implication has been given that they wanted to put out something that would be quick and easy. >I can't believe that the demand for an Anime conversion was so high >that these other ideas were ignored or not even considered. First, who says they were? Second, how long have you been on the list? Go back and read the IN Collection and ask yourself that question again. > >The EPG coming next year? Kick Ass! That rocks. > >Someone tell me about this Anime thing. It might fit the genre >well, but why on earth are they doing a source book around it??? It >just doesn't add up. I mean I can understand doing a GURPS: Anime >then adding GURPS In Nomine to it..... but adapting the main system? It's not an "adaptation" it's just a style guide. Read more carefully and research more before posting next time. - -- G. Harris Bias hbias@earthlink.net "He had some measure of the infuriating trait that causes a young man to be a nonconformist for its own sake and found that the surest way to shock people, in those days, was to believe that some kinds of behavior were bad, and others good, and that is was reasonable to live one's life accordingly." -Neal Stephenson, "The Diamond Age" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:50:51 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Blackouts >Is there a demon of blackouts? Habbalite of Drugs, I think. Maybe a Calabite, with the ability to destroy memories of hours on a successful Resonance check. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:40:58 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Re: Peter Richard C Hanton-Rutherford wrote: > Forgive _me_, but it's a response to a direct criticism of my previous> posting made by Jo Hart. It is entirely relevant to the comments she> made, and I would appreciate being allowed to defend my concepts. Your previous posting was also off-topic. How about finding some other venue to "defend" your concepts about Jews? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:47:25 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Angel of Passion Special thanks to Charles E. Smith and Alex Liddell for inspiring this character. Isaiah Seraph of Fire Friend of the Divine Spark The Angel of Passion "The only true crime is to deny what is within your heart." Cor- 4 Str-8 Agi-8 Eth- 3 Int-6 Pre-6 Cel- 4 Will-9 Per-7 Artifacts: Flaming Sword 3/ Vessel: Human 3/ (Chr+3) Skills: Driving (Car 3/, Plane 3/, Sailboat 2), Dodge 4/, Fighting 3/, Poetry 3/, Long Weapon (Sword 6/), Seduction 4/, Savoir Fair 4/ Songs: Song of Dreams (Corporeal 3/, Ethereal 3/, Celestial 4/) Song of Attraction (Ethereal 6/), Song of Protection (Corporeal 3/), Song of Tongues (Corporeal 3) Word Forces: 13-18 Attunements: Seraph of Fire, Elohim of Fire, Kyriotate of Fire, Mercurian of Fire, Smite, Friend of the Divine Spark, Angel of Passion As the Angel of Passion Isaiah can instantly tell how much passion a person has in their hearts and what it would take to incite them to it. Isaiah can also enter a trance like state where he focuses all his energies on the object of his present passion to the point that he can gains twice as much benifit from however much essence he spends on the project. Isaiah posseses other abilities which fluctuate due to humanity's fickleness and these should be left at the Referee's discretion. Special rites: * Kill someone destroys another's passions cruelty *Inspire roaring passion in another living being * Spend half an hour reciting poetry in a public place * Spend an hour in consenusal love making (a gift from Eli) Appearence: Isaiah cuts a memorable figure in the physical world or Celestial realms and everyone in his presence feel the force of emotion smoldering beneath his austere chiselled features. His vessel appears as a stunning man entering into his mid thirties of Greek-Italian descent who prefers to dress in formal wear ala James Bond even in casual situations. In the Celestial realms Isaiah transforms into a golden scaled Seraph with one hundred and eleven gem like eyes, his wings composed of flame, and tongue long and serpentine. The Angel of Passion is never without his bronze serpent tipped cane that transforms into a flamming sword whenever he assumes his natural form. Roleplaying Hints: Isaiah takes his job as the Angel of Passion very seriously and every moment of his life is lived like it might be his last in Heaven or on Earth. An insult to him is as likely to invoke a present and thanks as it to have him try to kill the offender on the spot. As a Seraph he is never dishonest about his motives or words and he can shockingly frank with all those around him in matters of heresay, love, sexuality, revenge, and devotion. His friendship should not be cultivated lightly nor his enimity because it is everlasting and oftentimes more than even the most tolerant can bear. Still angels looking for excitement will never want for it again, provided they don't get killed in his care. Background: Isaiah's personal history probably a reiteration of most of the major events of Heaven's history because to put it simply, the angel of passion "likes to be where the action is". It is known however that the Seraph was supposadly once a "muse" of Gabriel's leading an artistic core with Eli before the Fall that dissolved with the increasing focus of the Archangel of Fire's on punishing the Cruel. Isaiah who was then known as "Hiram" and a female gradually switched with her mistress to a male orientated avenger to react with humanity's love of throwing themselves fully into battle. By the time Gabriel exiled herself from heavengly politics Isaiah had been born and the devonaire swashbuckler determined to slay all those who stood in the way of lovers, artists, and poetic knights because of wicked hearts. The Seraph's way of promoting his word is a rather simple one and one that has drawn criticism from Judgement on more than one occasion for endangering the secrecy of the War. Isaiah simply promotes passion in everything he does after he sets a goal to be reached and accomplishes that goal in such a way that it becomes famous and inspiring to other's passions. Rumors of association with everyone from Lancelot Du Lake to the Scarlet Pimpernel to the Madness of Mozart have been said to be the product of Isaiah's tamperings and while certainly he'd be willing to set the record straight should he be found, the trouble is finding him in one place for more than a few days. The Seraph of Passions lately has been taking on a great deal of "side kicks" in hopes that his M.O. might spread and rather selfishlessly draw off demonic pursuers but LESS selfishlessly promote the heroic ideal. Truth be told if you have to be someone other than yourself, there are worse people to be than a Patron of Artists, Lovers, and Warriors. It is actually thus somewhat sad that the Angel of Passions finds his greatest passion, that for his Archangel, denied because she herself is already given to another...and the Lord our God is a lover even the Angel of Passions admits he cannot compete with. - -Charlemagne Hopes his ST sees this when considering his character's creativity for a word. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 16:16:23 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> The Shipley Heresy This came to me while reading Arthur C. Clarke's "The Ghost From The Grand Banks". Don't ask me why - I think it has something to do with the discussion of Mandelbrot sets. (8k) - -EDG The older man sat down next to me in the bar, ordering a Bud Lite as he slumped. It was obvious that he was tired - from the leaflets he carried, whose lettering I could not see, it was apparent that he had been advertising something - but he also obviously wasn't a bum; his clothes were far too new and clean for that. "Busy day?" I asked. He looked at me, and he nodded. "The day just gets longer when nobody listens," he said quietly, and turned back to the bar as his beer arrived. I downed my scotch sympathetically, and he grinned slightly as he took a drink. "In another world, I might never have met Frank, and this whole thing might never have started. Glad it did, though. Just wish other people saw how it works." I was curious now. "How what works?" The man turned to look at me again. "You sure you want to know, son? This is religion we're talking about." I laughed. "My parents were Catholics. I'm not. I'm used to talking about religion." That got a chuckle from the older man, and I stuck out my hand (now free of the shot). "John Faulkner." "Charles Bitter. It's a pleasure to meet you, John." Charles smiled and shook my hand. "I'm out advertising Shipleyism." He laughed. "Hell of a name, don't you think? But we couldn't think of another one that you wouldn't need a dictionary to figure out. Newspapers - and the Church - call it the Shipley Heresy." I'd read about the Shipley Heresy in the opinion columns of the local rag, but didn't know a lot about it, and said as much. "Something to do with alternate dimensions, right?" Charles winced. "Alternate universes, John, if you please. Are you familiar with the concept that every time we make a conscious decision, there's an alternate universe where we take the opposite choice?" I nodded, and he continued. "Well, that's the first precept of Shipleyism. Nate Shipley discovered that this was, in fact, true - nobody really knows how, but he's got evidence." Charles pulled out a pamphlet and opened it up to the first page, which had "ALTERNATE UNIVERSES" written in large text above a lengthy description of the concept he'd just summed up. "Now, there's the second precept. Do you know of the question that supposedly disproves an omnipotent God? Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?" Again I nodded. "Shipleyism states that God is omnipotent within the universe that he governs. He can create a rock larger than he can lift - but that rock is larger than the universe within which we live, and therefore he cannot lift it." He flipped to the second page: "LIMITED INFINITE POWER". I stopped him. "Wait a second. That means that there must be thousands - millions - of Supreme Beings each governing their own universe." Charles chuckled. "We prefer to use the term 'Supreme Being' to indicate the font of existence, the Creator, He who governs the first universe of which all others are merely facets. Our God is but a face of the Allfather, as the Vikings would have called Him." "And can He create a rock that He cannot lift?" "Of course. Because He only operates through His facets." I nodded. This was starting to make sense. "So the Allfather is omniscient as well?" "Limited omniscience. Each facet knows all that occurs in His universe, but only has inklings of what goes on in other realms." He opened a third page: "LIMITED INFINITE KNOWLEDGE". "But then the question becomes 'why doesn't God remove all evil from the world?'." "You have to understand that free will is what this is all about. In this scheme, logically there are entirely evil universes, which become Hell. Likewise, there are entirely good universes, which become Heaven." I blinked in astonishment. "So all we have to do to reach Heaven..." "Do good deeds for the rest of your life, and you'll get close. If our faith holds, God will judge us after death and give us rebirth in a better universe." I laughed. "It's all so simple. Do you mind if I keep this?" I gestured to the leaflet. "Not at all!" Charles smiled. "Take my card, too, John. We don't have an established chapel yet, but we meet at Greene Gardens every Sunday at ten. I think it's better than a church anyway." He shook my hand again, and downed the remains of his beer. "Thanks for listening, John. You've made my day. See you Sunday!" Before I could respond, he'd walked out the door. I looked, bemused, at the pamphlet in my hand, and at the card - which identified Charles Bitter as a fairly successful area businessman. "Is this real?" I asked the bartender. She shrugged. "If it's not, they're quiet and don't bother anyone, and it sure sounds like something I'd like to believe in." I smiled and handed her a tip that was easily half of what I'd paid for the line of empty shots along the bar. "I'll let you know." *** Shipley Shedite of Factions Demon of the Shipley Heresy Shipley is a rare Shedite; he displays a sense of humor in an organization that tends to discourage anything but pure gravity, and his idea of corruption actually has a positive effect on people's lives. (After being granted his Word, Fate also handed him an attunement; this caused some dissention until Hell's upper echelons realized how frighteningly effective Shipley actually was.) Shipley's modus operandi has nothing to do with depravity and everything to do with leading people away from the Right Path. As a snot in the basest pits of Hell, he enjoyed talking with the imprisoned souls about their earthly beliefs, and slowly formed the basis for what would become the Shipley Heresy. After possessing Nathan Haverdish and convincing him to change his name (thereby alienating his upper-class English parents), Shipley began disseminating the ideals of Shipleyism through young Nate, eventually forming a large following along the East Coast of the United States. When Shipley (and, with him, Nate, who was now a primary host even though Shipley had not corrupted him for several years) migrated to California, the religion suddenly grew by leaps and bounds, and the Shipley Heresy is now one of the largest fringe religions in North America. The basis principles of Shipleyism are as described above: that there is a system of alternate universes based on the concept that every conscious decision we make has an opposite in another universe; that every universe has a God who is omnipotent and omniscient within His own universe, who is merely a facet of the all-encompassing Supreme Being; and that at the extreme ends are Hell (where every decision furthers evil) and Heaven (where every decision furthers good), and that by doing good deeds one can come closer to Heaven. At Judgment Day, the universes will collapse but for Heaven and Hell, and the Allfather will pass judgment on every soul and relegate them to one of the two universes. Nate Shipley (nee Haverdish) is now dead; it is, Shipley has found, surprisingly easy to manufacture evidence that someone has stepped permanently into an alternate, better dimension, even when that someone has actually started fighting the Shedite's control and been taken into a dark alley by several large, unpleasant Calabim. Shipley now routinely sweeps among the Shipleyites, possessing each in turn, detecting their fate with his attunement from Kronos, and then steering them ever-so-gently toward it and away from their destiny, while still convincing them that they're doing good deeds. All in all, it's a good life. If only the bar where many of the Shipleyites like to hang out weren't manned by a Malakite of the Sword who's decided to scope out the situation... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 17:13:00 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Angelic Nirvana All this talk about the WoD has gotten me a few ideas about a common thread in the WoD games in the form of "The State of Understanding" which in WoD includes Golconda, Siochiandom, Transcendence, Ascension, and probably something for werewolves as well though for the life of me I can't think what. It then occurs to me that In Nomine for all of it's religeous underpinnings lacks some of it's own form of the matter. This makes a certain amount of sense because In Nomine is Judeao-Christian and the idea of Salvation through God's will alone is a predominate theme to Christian/Islamic/Judeao-Christian thought. However recently it occured to me that it might be interesting for someone who was familiar with Buddhist line of thought among the angels to be seeking his own form of "universal enlightment" which once achieved will grant him an understanding of the "Pyramid of Light" or Jacob's ladder (I admit I stole it from Tombraider) So what does everyone think about an idea of angels having their own legend of a state of ultimate understanding? What exactly would an angel have to do to achieve this mystical state and what would be the benifits/failings of such? Would an Angel who achieves such enlightment be allowed into the Higher Heavens? Would he instantly ascend to the status of Archangel? Would he be able to develop word forces without a word? (Giving ideas on Michael and Lucifer) Develop their own attunements/rites? Recieve images from God? It might be possible that demons have their own version of this cult which allows them to "transcend" the state of demonkind to something entirely new which does not bear any similarity to the state that God has "trapped" their spirits in. Some demons might indeed believe that they too were omnipotent or at least have the potential to be but God has stripped them of this divine strength. Some ethereals might seek it as well, believing this state is the source of YVHS power. Seraphim might abandon their lofty positions to dwell among mortals, Mercurians might seek communion with the highest of the high, Malakim might abandon violence, and Cherubim might examine the inner self to discover the higher state. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:35:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Peter On 9 Sep 2001, Richard C Hanton-Rutherford wrote: > >>Forgive me, but what does this *possibly* have to do with anything? > >> > >>This isn't "slightly off topic," it's a positive *veer.* > > Forgive _me_, but it's a response to a direct criticism of my previous > posting made by Jo Hart. It is entirely relevant to the comments she > made, and I would appreciate being allowed to defend my concepts. Forgiveness denied. Both you and Jo need to take this to email private *now*. You have the right to defend your concepts on the list ONLY to the degree that it has some tiny speck of IN relevance. When there is no longer any relevance to IN whatsoever, take it to private email. I don't presume to speak for the list moderator, but I do presume to be familiar with the list rules. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! It is a sad commentary on today's society that this .sig file must be considered "offensive" simply because it contains the word "fuck". ------------------------------ Date: 09 Sep 2001 19:01:42 +0100 From: "Richard C Hanton-Rutherford" Subject: IN> RE: Peter >Richard C Hanton-Rutherford wrote: >> Forgive _me_, but it's a response to a direct criticism of my >previous> posting made by Jo Hart. It is entirely relevant to the >comments she> made, and I would appreciate being allowed to >defend my concepts. > >Your previous posting was also off-topic. How about finding some >other >venue to "defend" your concepts about Jews? My previous posting was very on-concept - an answer to a question Michael asked about my Archsaint Peter write-up. I haven't made this into a forum for my views, and apologise that several people seem to have taken offense at what I wrote, As I said, I am an agnostic, and have never intended to attack Judaism - Michael asked a question about my Peter write-up, and I responded. Since then I have been attacked and accused of wasting time, and spouting anti-semitism, neither of which I am guilty of here. I am prepared to leave this matter to lie, though I believe I have been badly treated by several people on this list over what was originally an In Nomine posting, and at which a great deal of unnecessary offense has been taken. If you do not believe me, reread the original Peter posting, and Michael's question. Richard Hanton-Rutherford - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:11:34 -0600 From: "Julian Mensch" Subject: RE: IN> Angelic Nirvana I've had some thoughts along these lines myself. For a game about angels and demons, there really isn't a strong spiritual focus to IN. I'm not sure the answer lies in incorporating pseudo-Eastern philosophy or WoD-style Golconda, though. For one thing, WoD beings searching for some kind of spiritual higher state are generally damaged or imbalanced in some way, which I just don't see being true of angels. Vampires are monsters, and Golconda is salvation. Wraiths cannot accept their death; Transcendance is peace. Changelings cannot reconcile Glamour in a Banal world. Becoming Siochain allows them to do that. Only mages are really seeking enlightenment for enlightenment's sake alone. Mage is, in many ways, the counterpoint to IN, the argument for Why It's a Good Thing to have your own personal Symphony, just as IN casts that as Bad. I don't think internal enlight- enment is necessarily thematically appropriate to angels, or to demons in anything other than Backwards. I'll fully agree that there should be some kind of a spiritual search in the game, though. In my own variant setting, I have an angelic priesthood and spiritual community leadership of sorts in Heaven, run in joint effort by angels of Flowers, Purity and Faith. Many of the angels who have a somewhat Christianized perspective have "knowing the mind of God" as something of a spiritual goal. As the theory goes, God dwells in the Higher Heavens and does not usually speak /directly/ to His angelic children. But he has not stopped speaking entirely; it's just that angels have to learn how to listen for Him and His guidance, and to do that they have to open themselves fully, be free of sin and pride and be willing to accept what- ever He has to say. That isn't easy. Many born-again Christians speak of God as a part of their life, almost as if He's an invisible buddy that's never seen but always around. That's sort of how I see this -- angels make an effort, through religious ritual, faith, mysticism and community, to "include God in their lives" and develop a personal relationship with Him even though they can only percieve Him in their hearts and souls. That requires trust, of course, and a degree of "spiritual intuition," for lack of a better term, but it is possible (in IN). Many angels talk to God, as opposed to just repeating memorized prayers; they actually tell Him, confident that He in His omniscience can hear, what they are feeling, why they did things they did, what has been happening in their lives, and so forth. They also ask Him for guidance, and hope that he will offer it, will "open their eyes" to what is already there to be seen. And perhaps he does -- who can tell? Angels with a more Judaic or Islamic mindset tend to view this practice as somewhat strange at best, and vaguely blasphemous at worst. After all, God transcends all human and angelic understanding; treating Him like He's your buddy or your personal minister smacks of anthropomorphizing the Godhead -- something quite repellant to the distant and transcendant monothiesm of Judaism and Islam. - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:28:16 +1200 From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Anime? >It's not an "adaptation" it's just a style guide. Read more carefully >and research more before posting next time. That is what I thought the mailing list was for. Comments and explaination. I was totally confused, I don't have time to root through archives looking for answers that someone can just post. BTW. Direct quote from the website. "It's a new take on In Nomine . . . but it works. This book showcases how perfectly the world of angels and demons fits the "anime" style of art and fiction. Just shout "Gabriel's Flame of Vengeance!" and fry those evildoers .. . . or serve the Archdemon of Technology by building a giant mecha and piloting it against Heaven! Includes discussions of character types, hints for in-genre roleplaying, and complete campaign backgrounds." Now forgive me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't say style guide here. This is where I got my info from because I didn't have time to go a-looking through the archives for information about it. Complete campaign backgrounds doesn't scream "a light plug-in" does it? I just wanted an explaination. (I've been away for ages, so sorry if I have missed the plot.) Alex _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:13:19 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> The Ethereal Space Program Very, very nice James. Also very useful in an IN Space campaign. I wonder if Ouric, the Ofinte of Wind going for the Word of Space Exploration, would get involved? Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 18:35:29 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> RE: Peter Richard C Hanton-Rutherford wrote: > Since then I have been attacked and accused of wasting time, and spouting anti-semitism, neither of which I am guilty of here. The latter is debatable, the former is not. And it's really not that hard to make a thread about Jesus and the Jews IN-relevant. If your argument is about nothing BUT Jesus and the Jews, then you really need to stop and think about what you're arguing, and why. Even if you didn't intend to spout your views, you should have realized that making statements of fact about matters that are very much historically questionable and subject to interpretation could only precipitate a non-IN-related argument. > I am prepared to leave this matter to lie Good. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2365 ********************************