in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 13 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2372 In this digest: IN> Snuggles Choir Re: IN> Tattered Question RE: IN> GIN Rules, Rulings, clarifications & descriptions Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> Successors: Winter IN> Successors: War on webpage Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Divine Logic (was Re: IN> The Subroutine System) Re: Divine Logic (was Re: IN> The Subroutine System) Re: IN> Snuggles Choir Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night IN> A good day for Hell... Re: IN> A good day for Hell... RE: IN> GIN Rules, Rulings, clarifications & descriptions IN> Tattered IN> christian values Re: IN> Successors: Winter Re: IN> christian values Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night IN> Some thoughts Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> Some thoughts Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:44:12 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Snuggles Choir >Okay, I suspended my disbelief just fine for this silly thing until I >came >to this part ... explanation? I'll be perfectly honest. David is a man with alot of stress as a Malakim because not hitting first almost seems like suffering evil to live sometimes. I mean as a Malakim you REALLY want to hit something sometime. So these cute little stress balls were created for him and just sort of grew from there. *whap* *whap* *whap* Watch em bounce too! - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:22:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Tattered Question On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Cameron McCurry wrote: > > I've heard several references about the Tattered Universe. What is it, and > > where can I find information on it? > > http://www.godmachine.org/tattered/ And http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tattered/ That's the mailing list on which we're creating this thing. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! There will be no taxes. Everyone will be rich without working. We will germ-warfare all other nations out of existence so that our Armed Forces can be disbanded, and there can finally be World Peace. -- Ivan Stang (for President) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:53:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> GIN Rules, Rulings, clarifications & descriptions At 4:33 PM -0400 9/11/01, Mike Bruner wrote: [...] >Yet another reason Lilith probably doesn't mind Renegades; they can't >escape HER by breaking their Hearts. It may be implicit in them that if you _reject_ her Rites and dissonance, they self-strip. That's unclear, and I've never heard anyone want it clarified. [dark campaigns; Outcasts as demon-bait] >> Well, _really_ dark ones, sure. But if you're that dark, you'd >>better be shattering your Heart before you go Outcast, angel... > >CAN they actually shatter their own Hearts without falling/Outcasting? Without Falling? Unclear. Without Outcasting? Almost certainly not -- the lack of a Heart means that they cannot return to Heaven unless they follow someone else or use a Tether, which is the same state that a cracked-Heart Outcast is in. In my PERSONAL view, I would not make the angel Fall from that. But it _would_ get the three levels of Discord... >Speaking of matters dark and evil, I hope nobody on the list was caught up >in what happened today. Not personally, thankfully. Though at our vetrinarians', one of the vets' husband was on the second Trade Center plane. O:< >[...] Well, let's hope purely >human evils can be tracked down and dealt with by the purely human good guys. Amen. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:18:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night At 1:56 PM +0000 9/12/01, Janet Anderson wrote: >Can angels give blood? I would think so. >Do angels have blood type, compatible with humans, >as part of having a credible vessel? Ditto. Angels may tend to ask for O- blood-type -- especially Servitors of Creation and Flowers. (The reason why I'd think they had perfectly normal blood types is that if they _didn't_, the humans would start figuring it out soon... Very ancient vessels may _not_ have blood type, if you want to figure that they were updated when medical tech was updated -- or they might, if you decide that a vessel is made "to a Symphonic pattern," and therefore includes blood type as part of the package deal.) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:01:04 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Successors: Winter At 10:35 AM 9/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >ORIARES >CALABITE PRINCE OF WINTER > > "The world is cold. So must you be." This is nice. Not weird or squicky, just outright scary. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:05:52 -0400 From: Amanda Kilgore Subject: IN> Successors: War on webpage The compiled fiction, the epilogue not published on this list, and the (mostly) complete writeup. Suggestions are still most welcome, it's not hard to change the page once it's up. http://home.earthlink.net/~aekilgore/War.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:23 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night In article <3B9F79C7.7C39@mc.com>, earlw@mc.com (Earl Wajenberg) wrote: > Janet Anderson wrote: > > Can angels give blood? Do angels have blood type, compatible > > with humans, as part of having a credible vessel? > > I would think that they do. I'd expect them to have O negative, > the universal donor. > > > (Or demons, for that matter, but I can't see a demon doing > > anything so helpful or unselfish, except for Lilim for the > > obvious reason and with the obvious drawback.) > > I'd expect non-Lilim demons to have AB positive, the universal > receiver... I suspect that these are the defaults, but if a sensible Superior is building a vessel for a deep role, or that has to be plausibly someone's child, or the like, you change it. After all, if a simple blood test could tell large proportions of the population from angels or demons, it would be a bit of a giveaway. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:48:53 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Divine Logic (was Re: IN> The Subroutine System) >Was the "Divine Logic" attunement. > >Which makes sure that of course this theory explains everything... > >-Charlemagne I never did like that Attunement; I don't believe it'll exist in my game. Sorry, but giving Destiny's angels the Balseraph resonance just doesn't appeal to me. William ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:58:16 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: Divine Logic (was Re: IN> The Subroutine System) "William J. Keith" wrote: > I never did like that Attunement; I don't believe it'll exist in my game. > Sorry, but giving Destiny's angels the Balseraph resonance just doesn't > appeal to me. > > William Hee. Part of why Michael distrusts Yves, no doubt. - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:30:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Snuggles Choir - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Inspired by Pokemon, Tribbles, and the Works of > Roger Baum. > > Snuggles > > The best description of this minor choir has been > summed up as "the most > nausiatingly cute things that have ever come into > existence" this is not so > troublesome until you realize that Novalis was the > Archangel who said it. (blink) (blink) Ok, that was weird. _Good_ weird - it made me laugh - but really fragging bizarre. You'll need to add the Elohite response/counterresponse, though... Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 07/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:33:37 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night > Janet Anderson wrote: > >> Can angels give blood? Do angels have blood type, compatible >> with humans, as part of having a credible vessel? They'd have to be able to, as their vessels are supposed to be indistinguishable from humans, and the police routinely test blood stains found at crime scenes. >> (Or demons, for that matter, but I can't see a demon doing >> anything so helpful or unselfish, except for Lilim for the >> obvious reason and with the obvious drawback.) Actually, an Impudite might gain dissonance if he refused to give blood when stocks were very low; a sneaky Djinn could attune himself to the blood he gave. A subtle Calabite of Drugs (yeah, I know, what are the odds) should be able to use his band attunement to kill the recipient of his blood (or anyone else's, for that matter). Used carefully this could discredit blood transfusions. A Shedite in service to Tania might persuade his host to break into the blood bank in the middle of the night and hook himself up to all of the machines at once...He'd gain to two points of dissonance (one for the host's death, the other for violating Saminga's dissonance conditions) but Tania would likely gain a Word Force when the story broke. James. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:09:34 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> A good day for Hell... I hope I don't offend anyone by this post, but after all that's happened, today at work, I couldn't help but think about what one of Hell's most infamous Princes would think about it... I hope you like this. Sometimes, Belial had to admit, those little monkeys could warm his heart. He'd heard through his Servitors infiltrated into the world's Terrorist Organisations about the Attacks as they were being planned, but unlike his usual habit of taking direct control of a project, he decided to use a "hands off" approach, in case it went South on him. Wisest choice he'd ever made, it turned out. He multi-tasked to watch the whole event unveil, using some Vessels at each key location, and waited. At 8:56 AM, the waiting first paied off, as he saw the first plane crash on top of the North tower. Knowing more was to come, he decided to take a short walk around town, trying not to look to conspicuous as he enjoyed the reaction of the citizens, then, at 9:40am, went on top of a roof with a view, and, as the second plane crashed into the middle of the South tower on Live Television, cheered "Ha! That one's for you, Nybbas!" He then went back down to get a closer view of the carnage, mustering as much acting ability as he could to avoid looking too happy about the sight, then, at 9:53 am, shifted his attention to the Vessel he had in the Washington monument, and watched as another plane crashed into the Pentagon. That one wasn't as satisfying, as fewer people died, but he enjoyed the sight of the terrified people just the same. He focused his attention back in New York, where the blaze was still burning hotly, and where rescue efforts were underway. And then, at 10:05 AM, he grinned as he saw the first tower collapse, right on top of the rescue operations that were underway. And again at 10:28 AM when the second tower collapsed. He felt some disappointment when the 4th plane never made it's target, suspecting Angelic involvement, but he still felt very happy with his day. Especially when he saw Gabriel walking amongst the ruins of the collapsed World Trade Center, the death of so many innocents grating in her ears to the point she barely noticed him. "I figured you'd come here, Gabby...", the Prince said as he snuck up on her. She had collapsed onto her knees, rocking back and forth, barely registering him through the word dissonance. "I'm having a wonderful time here, just watching all this beautiful carnage... My word's getting one heck of a boost, I'm telling you... And you know the best part?" Gabriel suddenly turned to look at him through teary eyes, almost begging for some explination. "I didn't have to lift a single finger... All this wonderful destruction was planned, prepared and executed... By Humans!" He grinned and leaned forward to look Gabriel in the eyes, as he continued: "And even better... These Humans were Muslim... That's right, Gabby... Followers of the Religion YOU helped create! So, in a way, YOU're responsible for this! ....Isn't that ironic?" Belial laughed loudly as he left the completly shocked and grief-stricken Gabriel, then turned Celestial and went back to Hell as he felt more Archangels arrive to investigate the situation. He'd already stabilized his new Tether, and had the pleasure to rub his victory into Gabriel's face. He didn't need another confrontation. Not when he'd already won. Overall, Belial felt he'd had a very good day indeed... Sorry if this post offended someone... But I had to get this off my chest... - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:42:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A good day for Hell... Rolland Therrien wrote: > Overall, Belial felt he'd had a very good day indeed... Actually, I see Belial's reaction being more like Saminga's to the Holocaust: raw fury that after all the damage he's done, with all the destruction his demons wreak across the world, a few _humans_ managed to do something that makes all his work for the past century look like a joke. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:28:35 -0400 From: Mike Bruner Subject: RE: IN> GIN Rules, Rulings, clarifications & descriptions >[...] >>Yet another reason Lilith probably doesn't mind Renegades; they can't >>escape HER by breaking their Hearts. > >It may be implicit in them that if you _reject_ her Rites and dissonance, >they self-strip. That's unclear, and I've never heard anyone want it >clarified. Actually that makes sense for Freedom to allow you to reject a gift like that, although I suppose any Demon Prince that one does not serve directly is generally willing enough to strip their Rites from someone if asked (no sense supporting someone who is that uncertain about helping your Word). Mind you, they'll take offense at the request... >[dark campaigns; Outcasts as demon-bait] >>> Well, _really_ dark ones, sure. But if you're that dark, you'd >>>better be shattering your Heart before you go Outcast, angel... >> >>CAN they actually shatter their own Hearts without falling/Outcasting? > >Without Falling? Unclear. Without Outcasting? Almost certainly not -- >the lack of a Heart means that they cannot return to Heaven unless they >follow someone else or use a Tether, which is the same state that a >cracked-Heart Outcast is in. > >In my PERSONAL view, I would not make the angel Fall from that. But it >_would_ get the three levels of Discord... Not to mention I imagine there would be a great hue and cry in Heaven if you were caught (and Dominic would certainly get you exterminated for such a deliberately treasonous act, Fall or not). >>Speaking of matters dark and evil, I hope nobody on the list was caught up >>in what happened today. > >Not personally, thankfully. Though at our vetrinarians', one of the vets' >husband was on the second Trade Center plane. O:< My sympathies for their loss. My parents commented that given how the casualties were, it's likely everyone either knew somebody involved or knows somebody who knows someone involved. >>[...] Well, let's hope purely >>human evils can be tracked down and dealt with by the purely human good guys. > >Amen. Apparently they're doing a good job so far; I was amazed how much progress the FBI already made by today according to what I heard. - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:51:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Tattered The Tattered webpage is in a current state of chaos. Not that it isn't always in a current state of chaos, but just more so. I'm in the middle of putting all the edited information up, and Moe's in the middle of editing the rest of it as fast as ... well, let's just say he's editing it. However, for the first time in a while, it looks like this thing might actually get finished. Right now, I wouldn't recommend trying to read the Tattered mailing list archives, since we have probably close to 2,500 posts up there now, of varying quality and length. If you give me another week or so, I plan to have the webpage in good enough shape for people to look at, getting rid of dead links and posting enough of the bare bones that people will have some idea of what's going on. Anyway, if you want more information, feel free to contact the mailing list (http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tattered). Later. Jonathan He-Who-Taketh-On-Too-Many-Projects ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:59:49 +0100 From: "Dave" Subject: IN> christian values If Laurence is Malakim, with the usual "Thou shalt not suffer an evil to live, through choice" oath, amongst others. And the patron of Christianity - how does he reconcile his nature and duties with the Christian credo of forgiveness, turning the other cheek and all that jazz. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Successors: Winter - --- EDG wrote: > This is nice. Not weird or squicky, just outright scary. [blushes] ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> christian values - --- Dave wrote: > If Laurence is Malakim, with the usual "Thou shalt not > suffer an evil to > live, through choice" oath, amongst others. And the > patron of > Christianity - how does he reconcile his nature and > duties with the > Christian credo of forgiveness, turning the other cheek > and all that jazz. By remembering that verse where Christ told his disciples to go out and buy swords (I forget which of the Gospels has it; I'm terrible with addresses). Turning the other cheek is the Christian policy for dealing with individuals; for institutionalized persecution, it is permissible to fight back. As the AA of the Sword, Laurence knows this only too well. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:49:27 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night >Can angels give blood? Do angels have blood type, compatible with humans, >as part of having a credible vessel? My view is not. Vessels do not suffer disease etc. Vessels are not actually living things, they can be stored for future use and only gain any sense of life when inhabited by a celestial spirit. Related to this, I have run some games involving Celestials and the Kindred (GURPS stuff) I have ruled that Celestials cannot be embraced and that drinking a Celestial provides no nourishment. The only thing it does is create a very angry Celestial. The only Angel I would allow to give blood would be a Kiriotate, and the only Demon a Shedite. Eek, the motivations of a Shedite giving blood, this could be truly horrible. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:27:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Omentide wrote: > >> Can angels give blood? Do angels have blood type, compatible >> with humans, as part of having a credible vessel? > > My view is not. So what do you think would happen if the experiment was tried? Does the blood not come out? (But surely vessels bleed.) Does the receiver of blood not get any benefit from it? What happens if an unconscious celestial is hustled into an emergency room and someone takes a blood sample for analysis? ("Hey, what *is* this guy? A Toon? His veins are full of something that looks like red ink!") Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:45:52 -0400 From: Amanda Kilgore Subject: IN> Some thoughts While I don't normally post things like this, I think it's worth sharing. A friend sent me the link, and it has some interesting things to say. http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/eye12sep01.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:11:09 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night >So what do you think would happen if the experiment was tried? >Does the blood not come out? (But surely vessels bleed.) >Does the receiver of blood not get any benefit from it? >What happens if an unconscious celestial is hustled into an >emergency room and someone takes a blood sample for analysis? >("Hey, what *is* this guy? A Toon? His veins are full of something >that looks like red ink!") An unconscious Celestial is unlikely to happen but I do get your point. Remember a vessel can survive without its host, it does not do very much but it does not die. It does not need to eat, drink, sleep. Vessels do breathe and get nourishment through breathing. They have navels etc. They appear to be normal human beings but they are not. The blood would therefore appear normal but it is not. In an accident room the medics are hardly likely to put the blood under a microscope. If the injury is serious they will immediate pour in the universal donor before typing since the test takes time and saving life is priority. From that point onwards any test they do will react to that donor and if nothing else crops up they will assume a perfect match. Blood typing is simply a matter of adding reagents, whether these work I'm not sure. According to In Nomine vessels are immune to disease and all external pathogens etc, as such the blood should probably not react to any test. And then the Smoking Man turns up end everything goes quiet. Result, nobody knows anything. A new role for the servitors of Secrets??? Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:11:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Omentide (Ashley) wrote: > According to In Nomine vessels are immune to disease and all > external pathogens etc, as such the blood should probably not > react to any test. And then the Smoking Man turns up end > everything goes quiet. Result, nobody knows anything. Who's the "Smoking Man"? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:36:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Omentide (Ashley) wrote: > > > According to In Nomine vessels are immune to disease and all > > external pathogens etc, as such the blood should probably not > > react to any test. And then the Smoking Man turns up end > > everything goes quiet. Result, nobody knows anything. > > Who's the "Smoking Man"? The "Man in Black" or "Man from the shadows" who comes in and covers everything up, Illuminati-style. It's an X-Files reference. (Don't even watch the show myself, but I've asked the same question before....) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "If this television craze continues...we are destined to have a nation of morons." -- Boston University president Daniel Marsh, 1950 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:28:44 -0400 (EDT) From: ydobyns@princeton.edu Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Omentide wrote: > > > >> Can angels give blood? Do angels have blood type, compatible > >> with humans, as part of having a credible vessel? > > > > My view is not. > > So what do you think would happen if the experiment was tried? > Does the blood not come out? (But surely vessels bleed.) > Does the receiver of blood not get any benefit from it? > What happens if an unconscious celestial is hustled into an > emergency room and someone takes a blood sample for analysis? > ("Hey, what *is* this guy? A Toon? His veins are full of something > that looks like red ink!") How much of a vessel's unique, biology-defying properties come from its innate construction, versus the fact that it's the corporeal manifestation of a Celestial or Ethereal spirit not native to the corporeal plane? If vessels are tireless organic robots that would display their unnatural properties even if "uninhabited", then one does need to worry about questions like how "natural" their blood is. But one could also presume that a vessel has *no* physical differences from the species it purports to be; that features like "no need to sleep, no need to eat", etc., come from the structure of Forces it's designed to house, rather than from the physics, chemistry, or biology of its own composition. In the latter case, a human vessel will automatically have some human blood type, and moreover one appropriate to its apparent ethnicity (I seem to recall that B and AB are confined to certain groups). York Dobyns ydobyns@princeton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:42:59 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night > > > According to In Nomine vessels are immune to disease and all > > > external pathogens etc, as such the blood should probably not > > > react to any test. And then the Smoking Man turns up end > > > everything goes quiet. Result, nobody knows anything. > > > > Who's the "Smoking Man"? > >The "Man in Black" or "Man from the shadows" who comes in and covers >everything up, Illuminati-style. It's an X-Files reference. Slightly more than that. A human (or human organisation) who knows of the presence of Angels and Demons etc and is not exactly in support of them. The Informed from CPG p103 and dedicated to power and protecting their knowledge. Or the Men in Black. Which are of course also SJ Games event and convention support. The conspiracy gets ever deeper..... Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:57:05 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night >How much of a vessel's unique, biology-defying properties come from its >innate construction, versus the fact that it's the corporeal manifestation >of a Celestial or Ethereal spirit not native to the corporeal plane? > >If vessels are tireless organic robots that would display their unnatural >properties even if "uninhabited", then one does need to worry about >questions like how "natural" their blood is. But one could also presume >that a vessel has *no* physical differences from the species it purports >to be; that features like "no need to sleep, no need to eat", etc., come >from the structure of Forces it's designed to house, rather than from the >physics, chemistry, or biology of its own composition. > >In the latter case, a human vessel will automatically have some human >blood type, and moreover one appropriate to its apparent ethnicity (I seem >to recall that B and AB are confined to certain groups). Sure, I guess ultimately it is possible to go with this any way anyone wants. If you want Vessels to have blood groups etc then why not. If you want them to appear to have blood groups but on real close examination the blood does not pass the test then again why not. And I suppose if you want them to have red ink, why not. Canon would indicate that vessels appear human, just how much effort has been put into the appearance is a personal judgement call. My thoughts come largely from a game where there are both Celestials and Kindred. I did not want to think about the implications of Kindred drinking Celestial Blood, if it is richer, more nourishing, stronger, purer etc the implications are bad. Worse is stuff like what happens then if a Celestial gets embraced? Sure, OK the Celestial can jump vessel. But what if blood bound? What about a Celestial who decided it was cool to be of the Kindred as well, and then started diabolising to get even more powers and abilities? So I can up with the idea that this sort of thing cannot happen and the simple way is to decide that Celestial blood, although it looks completely normal is not. It does not give any nourishment to the Kindred. Sole result is a very annoyed Celestial.... And if it cannot nourish the Kindred my thoughts would be that it would do little good to humans either. Once again this is just my thoughts. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:34:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Some thoughts Thank you, Amanda. I needed this, whether or not anyone else did. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:43:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night - --- Omentide wrote: > Vessels do > breathe and get nourishment through breathing. Animals process oxygen by means of their blood. A Vessel might well do the same. > They > appear to be normal human beings but they are not. The > blood would therefore appear normal but it is not. Probably true. > Blood typing is simply a matter of adding reagents, > whether these work I'm > not sure. According to In Nomine vessels are immune to > disease and all > external pathogens etc, as such the blood should probably > not react to any test. Envesseled Celestials are not exempt from the laws of physics. Vessels and the components thereof are made of matter. Thus, adding reagents to a Vessel's blood will produce a reaction (whether or not it's the usual reaction is a matter for debate). For game balance reasons, I'd say that the blood of a Vessel is so close to that of a living being that it would take a _very_ sophisticated test to tell the difference. Otherwise, Celestials don't need anything but a blood sample to identify each other. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:54:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Since the host of a kyriotate -- or of any celestial using the Song of Possession -- acts just like a vessel while being used, this suggests that a vessel is, in fact, a perfectly real and normal human body. It just has a celestial (or saint) attached to it instead of a (mortal) human soul. The two are attached quite differently, and in the case of the vessel, it is the celestial's Corporeal Forces that supply the energy, rather than food and drink. Those Forces also supply the energy for a celestial's usually superhuman strength. And, since the vessel needn't really metabolize, it ages very slowly if at all. That's my theory, anyway. Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2372 ********************************