in_nomine-digest Sunday, September 16 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2375 In this digest: IN> Iron Rev 4 Extension Re: IN> Iron Rev 4 Extension IN> IN Game Line IN> A comedy source of IN ideas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:00:09 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: IN> Iron Rev 4 Extension Since many folks have been preoccupied by the events of this week, I am considering extending the deadline for Iron Rev. (Well, also because we haven't had enough entries to make me happy.) Entries will be accepted until Monday morning, 9/17. If there's enough of a hue & cry, I could be persuaded to extend it for another week. - -- Casca PS to James Walker: Get your rewrite in NOW, bucko! ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:26:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Iron Rev 4 Extension - --- Eric Bertish wrote: > Since many folks have been preoccupied by the events of > this week, I am > considering extending the deadline for Iron Rev. [snip] > Entries will be accepted until Monday morning, 9/17. Cool. I may get one in, but no promises. Hard to get inspired in light of the fact that I'm not familiar with any of the songs on the ingredients list (some of us don't listen to much pop or rock while jazz is an option). ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:32:03 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> IN Game Line To those who are in charge of In Nomine (and those who aren't but are getting this anyway), I've been noticing, getting the feeling, have been told that the In Nomine game line isn't doing so well. I note that the two upcoming supplements to be released are In Nomine Anime and the Ethereal Players guide. I've noticed some worry on the list that In Nomine may become "just another GURPS" and that got me thinking about the likely future of the In Nomine game line and how/why it will (is) likely fail. Today I reflected on three successful game lines, D&D, Vampire:TM, and INS/MV (the very game In Nomine is based upon). (Definition of successful : still exists, is still popular and is still regularly releasing supplements.) I then asked myself, what do these game have that In Nomine lacks? Dungeons & Dragons has lots of books full of spells, equipment, monsters, places to explore, adventures, entire series of novels based on the game world, and an entire genre (FANTASY) from which it can draw ideas and generate plots, stories and characters. I note that within the novels were game worlds that were growing, developing, changing and could be used by a DM as places to set her game. Also, to help players who don't focus so much on "roleplaying" but do like to wield power (social, magical, physical, etc), D&D characters start off at a low power level, from which they grow and increase in power as the game progresses, using a leveling system that increases attributes, skills, and spells. Vampire: The Masquerade has -lots- of flavor text, excellent artwork, an "official" game world that's growing, changing and developing (with the disclaimer that the GM need not follow the plot of the game world as presented in the books). V:TM also has an entire genre (VAMPIRES) from which it can draw ideas and generate plots, stories and characters. The game also takes place in a version of the "real world," so its meshed the history of its game world with the real world, helping to make the game world feel more authentic. It also draws upon "universal" emotional states to draw in its players: feelings of isolation, feeling powerless, political struggle and despair vs hope. Also, to help players who don't focus so much on "roleplaying" but do like to wield power (social, vampiric, physical, etc), V:TM characters start off at a low power level, from which they grow and increase in power as the game progresses, using experience point system to increase attributes, abilities and vampiric powers. In Nomine Satanis / Magna Veritas has nice flavor text, an official game world that's growing, developing and changing, supplements with places to explore, emerging secret societies, plotting within Heaven and within Hell, and lots of new powers (they lump equipment, contacts, roles, artifacts, servants, songs/attunements, and tether equivalents all under the title "power"). The game has attitude (including "these are the rules, if you change ANYTHING, don't blame us if your game falls apart before your eyes") and humor (lawyer jokes anyone?). INS/MV also has an entire, not genre per se, but known set of beliefs (CATHOLICISM) from which it can draw ideas and generate plots, stories and characters (oh, and it does). The game also takes place in a version of the "real world," so its meshed the history of its game world with the real world, helping to make the game world feel more authentic. Also, to help players who don't focus so much on "roleplaying" but do like to wield power (social, magical, physical, etc), INS/MV characters start off at a low power level, from which they grow and increase in power as the game progresses, using an award system to increase number of power points (essence pool), characteristics, and powers. I noted that all three of these game lines has an official set living, developing and changing game world. I note that IN -does not- (not since the revelation cycle at any rate). Still, I realized that GURPS, another successful RPG product; doesn't have a set game world like that, and yet its still successful. However, its successful because GURPS doesn't take place in a single game world, but is a set of rules used to emulate/create -any- gaming world, genre, time, place, ad infinitum. GURPS is successful, so far as I can tell, because it produces lots and lots of supplements that provide new abilities, powers, plots, characters, monsters, spells, psi, gear etc, much like D&D . . . but also, each supplement includes something of a story; the game world with in the supplement unfolds before the reader's eyes, thus the consumer likes the product and will likely go back and get another GURPS book. In Nomine has provided gear, songs, background on its Superiors, characters/monsters, places to explore and interact with, guide books for its choirs/bands (not unlike clan books for V:TM, the character class books for D&D or the Liber Angelis / Liber Daemonis for INS/MV) but, I feel has failed its audience and consumers in one greatly tragic way : lack of a game world that's developing, changing, and growing. Anyone can create lists of spells, powers, equipment, and the like, after all GURPS has tons and tons of ideas along those lines, but ONLY the producers of a game line can create the official game world, set the official course of events and DEFINE what's going on in the game line. That definition grants an authority to the story within the game world, an authority that those looking for more than a set of rules can enjoy. While there has been something resembling this in the Superiors books, it doesn't hit the mark. I've seen many many "options" and "optional" ideas presented to GMs and players. But, frankly, that's not what the majority of consumers of RPG's want/enjoy. (Note that most of the people on the IN-list do not fit norm of RPG consumers, so I'm not necessarily talking about you.) Most people who buy RPGs are looking for a story, be it a story about fighting hoards of monsters, struggling with being one of those monsters, or simply adventuring in the wide world of . . . fiction, or even non-fiction, but it's adventuring in a defined game world. I've felt that the producers of In Nomine are afraid of telling their audience that "this is what is happening in the game world" for fear of upsetting the more creative types who would rather have a set of rules and use them to create a game world. Unfortunately, that's NOT the majority of people out there buying RPGs. Most of my friends buy a new RPG book because of the stories within the book, and the best way to get people to keep buying a series of books is to have an on going story within it (ask any novelist). Anyone who loves Babylon 5 will probably agree with me, anyone who loves Vampire:TM will also probably agree with me (and will buy more V:TM books than they can afford). I, for one, am not surprised at all to see a book like In Nomine Anime being released. If a company is unwilling, or unable, to provide a set game world for its consumer audience, then it must provide them with something else, such as alternative game worlds, as in done with the GURPS line. Most of the websites I see devoted to the World of Darkness game series or INS/MV are devoted to new abilities and personal characters. Most of the websites I've seen devoted to In Nomine are devoted to game world and plot developments, attempting to fill the gap in the product line. What's necessary, so far as I can tell, is simply creating a sense of continuity and development within the plot of the game world, like inter-superior politics for instance. Tell it like it is, state it as though it were so, and then put a note in the front of the book: "NOTE: the GM and players are not required to use the ideas presented in this book. While this is the canon game world of In Nomine, you are more than welcome to do your own thing." Or something of that ilk, it's what White Wolf does and their game lines have been a success, they have told stories that people like to read (and buy). Define your game world, give it some depth and something solid, perish, or become another GURPS. Thank you for your precious time, A loyal, but disheartened, fan of GURPS and In Nomine, - -Perry M. Lloyd perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:22:07 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> A comedy source of IN ideas http://www.theonion.com/archive/archive_religion.html Just came across this and thought of y'all. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd "Friends will keep you sane, Love could fill your heart, A lover can warm your bed, But lonely is the soul without a mate. " - --David Pratt ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2375 ********************************