in_nomine-digest Monday, September 17 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2377 In this digest: Re: IN> Mishandling Re: IN> IN Game Line IN> When I grow up I want to be....VII IN> When I grow up, I want to be....VI IN> When I grow up, I want to be a .....Part VIII IN> The In Nomine Setting Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> Mishandling Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> Mishandling Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> Mishandling IN>Impudites and Violent Words Re: IN> Mishandling Re: IN>Impudites and Violent Words Re: IN>Impudites and Violent Words Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> When I grow up, I want to be a .....Part VIII Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> How long do I hold it? [OT - Private Replies Only] IN> Web site's up! IN> [Successors] Sandalphon: The Senegorin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:10:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Mishandling - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Hypothetically speaking what happens now that the mistake > is known to Heaven? Before or after Dominic gets through smacking Daniel and Hutriel around? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:23:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line - --- "S.D." wrote: > Has anyone ever thought about trying their hand at an In > Nomine fiction series? I would absolutely _LOVE_ to collaborate with a couple of the people on this list on a series of IN novels. I even have some titles already. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:17:54 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> When I grow up I want to be....VII when I grow up, I want to be a Balseraph. Balseraphs don't lie. It's a strange truth. A demonling who learns the Lying skill had best avoid becoming a Balseraph - if he is foolish enough to do so he will be twisted by Dissonance whenever he uses the skill. Demons make great liars - so long as they are not Balseraphs. Balseraphs really don't lie. Nor do the smartest demonlings. Where's the point? It's not like anyone will believe you. Lying is pointless. The truth is pointless. The only thing that matters is that some people are bigger than you are and they hurt you when they feel like it. How do you stop them feeling like hurting you? A demonling lives in a demon's world. Everything around him is owned by beings much bigger and more powerful than himself. Whenever he makes a mistake, he gets punished. When a demon storms in demanding to know why the demonling has taken something, he's in trouble. Unless... He lies? No. He tells the 'truth'? No. What will either achieve? The demon has already made up his mind. The demon says I stole the cup? Then clearly I stole the cup. Do I have the cup? Yes? Then yes, I TOOK the cup, because I thought that if I polished it you'd be pleased. I'm sorry. Should I finish polishing it? No? Is there any other way I can show I'm loyal? Perhaps I don't have the cup. But I stole it - the demon says so, and if I contradict him he'll hit me. Perhaps: "He made me take it, he wanted it himself, so he made me take it and then ran off with it! Who is he? [insert name of bigger demonling who demon will believe the worst of - that's almost anybody]. The last I saw he was going..." Of course, the cup may have been misplaced. But our little demonling isn't foolish enough to say that. If he finds the cup, he can hide it in the lair of the framed demonling. See? He did take it! In game terms, this is Fast-Talk being twisted. In roleplaying terms, it's something much deeper. The demonling lives in a world where everybody is bigger and stronger and brighter than he is. And they're always right. If the demon believes that the demonling is guilty, then he's guilty. This is clearly true, because he gets punished. That's what 'guilty' means, after all. It doesn't have anything to do with what you've done. If he doesn't punish you then you are innocent. So the demon can never be wrong. The only place they aren't always in control is in his mind. They normally control his mind, of course; his emotions are the toys of the habbalah, his beliefs the toys of the balseraphs. Still, his mind is the closest thing the demonling has to a possession. He can't control who tramps through it, any more than he can prevent a demon wandering into whatever hovel or cardboard box he calls home; but he gets to choose what to hang on the walls. When a Balseraph tells him that he's better off telling the truth, he must believe - - but he can decide what the truth means. The demonling masters the intricacies of helltongue; the innuendoes and implications, learns to shift the emotional baggage associated with words. There's nothing 'relative' about the demonlings view of the world. He feels the soft song of his personal symphony, knows that what he perceives as the truth is true - in his symphony. He knows that bigger demons have stronger symphonies, so what they say is true, because they can enforce their world on him. And strongest of all is God. But not different. The demonling who aspires to being a Balseraph knows something that makes a Habbalah's delusions seem quite reasonable - every Balseraph is God. They speak the word, and it becomes so. Unfortunately, their Symphony is smaller than God's, so they're at a disadvantage. For now. But Lucifer is playing well; how long before he defeats God? And Lucifer must win, because he says he's the First Balseraph. If God was mightier, then Lucifer would only be the second Balseraph, and claiming to be the First would cause him dissonance. So the demonling feels smug about his future. But not complacent. Who created the world he is walking through? Did he? if not, then he is in another Balseraph's world. A world created for the benefit of that Balseraph. Maybe he is a brain in a vat, deluded by a rival. Sure, he's walked past the banks of vats with brains in them, but wouldn't you put that image in the world, to ensure complacency? Paranoid world that he lives in - - better become a Balseraph quickly, so that he can protect himself..... James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:18:09 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> When I grow up, I want to be....VI Sorry about not writing anything recently; hopefully I'm coming out of shock sufficiently to get back into the swing of writing. =========================================================================== When I grow up, I want to be an Mercurian. Heaven is a glorious place; a majestic place; a mighty place. Imagine a reliever opening his eyes for the first time. He is in Heaven, and is full of awe and respect for what God has done. Imagine how he wanders the gleaming streets wondering what he should do, how he can contribute to this amazing place; how he sits in awe watching the pageantry of The Sword or an open session of the Seraphim Council. And then a Mercurian sees him, smiles, and greets him by name. The Mercurians, as "people" angels, are the most accessible choir. While humans may call them the Friends of Man, in Heaven they might well be called the Friends of All. To a newly made reliever, heaven will be a bewildering place (delightful, yes, but still bewildering) and the advice and friendship of an Intercessionist is a great boon. No matter what choir the reliever finally fledges as, the Mercurian's friendship will be remembered fondly, and if possible the friendship maintained. A friendship with a Mercurian will teach the Reliever a great deal about their fellow angels, and about the Blessed. Whenever the Reliever needs advice, his friend will be able to explain the intricacies of relationships and politics, speeding the fledglings integration into Heaven's ranks. Small wonder that many choose to become Mercurians themselves, and help others the way they were helped, when small and weak. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:17:18 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> When I grow up, I want to be a .....Part VIII When I grow up, I want to be an Elohite. A reliever is guarded by Malakim, befriended by Mercurians, inspired by Menunim. But when he needs specific advice, he turns to the Elohim. They know his moods, his feelings; when he is speaking with the heart and when with the head. And what to do when they disagree. It's a choice every reliever has to make sooner or later: which does he trust, heart or head? Many will choose the heart. They are drawn to Words like Dream or Fire; their choir of choice is likely Ofanite, Cherub or Kyriotate. Others are calmer. They still have emotions, but are not ruled by them. They're not 'Spock' - no one can be, at the end of any chain of reasons is "because I wanted to" even if what they wanted was to be logical. What they are is thoughtful, willing to postpone an emotion on the advice of their intellect. Willing to ask themselves what the fundamental purpose of everything is. And turn to God. Walking the streets of Heaven, meeting the Blessed, those human most likely to have had their lives touched by God; serving the Archangels, who have spoken with God; able to read the record of God's word in Yves' library; God isn't a theory or possibility to a reliever. Instead he is the guiding force behind the universe, the basic reality that the reliever cannot doubt. For in addition to how God has revealed Himself to heaven, the reliever has access to the wisdom of the finest philosophers, who can introduce him to natural religion, and show him how such basics as absolute morality and the existence of logical truth require the existence of God. And help the reliever decide how he can best serve God. To a degree, the reliever can follow his instincts. He was sculpted to a plan laid down by God long before the Fall; he knows that his selflessness is both a gift from and a command by God. Further, Destiny and Fire can guide him towards God's plan for him. But to know what God has planned for him, he needs to know what he is. He's selfless, heavenly; and if he's got this far, rational. But how rational? Is he meant to rely solely on his reason, or should he follow his desires as well? In part, that is a personal choice. But it is a permanent choice. The reliever is immortal; if he chooses reason over emotion he must accept that his reasoning abilities will grow and mature with practice, while his emotions will atrophy. There's nothing inherently wrong with his emotions; they're a gift from God, after all. But once neglected they will be useless, and to turn to them, perhaps centuries later, would be insane. Many relievers will decide that they can't make that choice. Their emotions are a gift form God, and they will use them as such. They will be respected by the Elohim. Others will claim that they wish to rely exclusively on reason, and be turned back by the Elohim; able to sense the emotions of those they deal with an Elohite will see if the decision made is actually an emotive leap later rationalised. But others will say yes. For many years, they have sought answers in reason and logic, and that has turned them into basically intellectual beings; becoming an Elohite will be the culmination of the path they choose, perhaps unconsciously, long ago. From now on, they will seek objective, rational goals. But is becoming an Elohite actually objectively good? It's likely that the reliever has friends who disagree; friends who plan to become Malakim. The objectively right choice, these friends will argue, is to be immune to Falling, to Trauma, to prevent Hell from corrupting or crippling you. The answer the proto-Elohite will give is breath taking: Hell is not important enough to matter in an objective decision. The Symphony has been unfolding for billions of years in it's intricate complexity. The fact that a few traitors are loose on a single planet simply isn't worth considering when making a decision which will still matter billions of years from now. True, Hell is annoying, and must be defeated. But the Symphony isn't about Hell, it's about God, about his creations, about Heaven. And an Elohite can operate knowing this, something a Malakite finds difficult. So the reliever plans to become an Elohite, confident that he will still be ready to serve when Lucifer is just a distant memory. James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:36:20 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> The In Nomine Setting > nto, if absolutely *nobody* else, your Superior. So the Superiors are > constants. Unless you completely rework the universe, the Superiors in the > core book *will* show up in one form or another, so you have someone you > can expect. It makes the RP more interesting if you can recognize some of > the NPCs, to me. Yes, I'll second that. One of the things which caused havoc in the Shadowkin* freeforms in OZ was the PC's had no idea how they fitted into the world. Because In Nomine is a war setting, there would be major NPC's responsible for regions. Fleshing these out might create some useful depth. For example, A freeform which I've got sitting on the backburner, waiting to be finished, has as it's premise the guardian angels of the European nations getting together in 1939 to try and prevent/exploit the impending war. Everyone on both sides would know who these angels, and their infernal counterparts are; would they really be that difficult for us to design? James. *(basically a home spun version of Minds' Eye that existed 10-5 years ago). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:45:05 -0400 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:08:53AM -0700, Michael Walton wrote: > > --- Maurice Lane wrote: > > So, is there anyone here that wants to sacrifice their > > own favorite interpretation of the game line for the > > betterment of all? > > Actually, yes. WW, TSR and the makers of INS/MV have all > presented set storylines and game worlds with the > disclaimer that the GM is free to change them. This works. Except that this was tried with In Nomine from the beginning, with the Revelations Cycle. It didn't work very well, but the books did have other problems. Metaplots are a problem. Some people really like them, some people really don't. I can't really judge from the web press (places like RPG.net) whether gamers in general like them, because sites like that really aren't representative. Metaplots may or may not sell well, but they certainly generate a lot of ill-will in some circles. All I can say is that metaplot is not something I really want to see in IN. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:03:57 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Mishandling Charles Phipps wrote: > One of the Angels of Final Judgement missed a Hellsworn who repented with> their last breath and fufilled their destiny. It was really ingenious the> way Asmodeus snuck his former soldier past. > > It was the princible of the thing you know. > > Hypothetically speaking what happens now that the mistake is known to > Heaven? First: the Angels of Final Judgment wouldn't make that mistake. Second, if they did, Heaven would probably feel obligated to mount an assault to rescue the damned soul. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:31:31 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line > All I can say is that metaplot is not something I really want to see > in IN. I'd like to add my voice to this. I remember being excited about BattleTech, and then they put out the Clan wars stuff, which I thought was a load of hooey, so I stopped being so excited about it. I'm afraid to get into Vampire, because I know that my obsolete sourcebook (it doesn't even have faults and other character things in it) is, well, obsolete, and it'll take me ages to catch up the storyline. It's kind of nice to have a crutch, sometimes, but whenever I've had a world background, I'm always having crazy GM problems, because I want adventures, but I don't want to change the world so much that the next few sourcebooks will be useless to me. "Oh, a New Orleans sourcebook? I guess that war you fought there wasn't so big... or something. No, no, they must've rebuilt the French Quarter much faster. Oh, and it's a perfect replica of the way it looked before you blew it up. Really." That's why I could never run a good Middle Earth game. And the only reason we were able to run a good Star Wars game was because we forced it, and, since the world was so big anyway, you could actually get away with having a plot. And the only way I did *that* was by *making up* the planets the players went to and ignoring the printed material, only using it as background to the plot at hand. And that kind of makes it all pointless. So I'd like to add my voice to this. Instead of giving players a plot (we've proven we can make our own), we need more books like this: In Nomine Dark Ages (i'm begging you, here!) The Fall The Ethereal Player's Guide The Disavowed Player's Guide More Superior Books (more begging. i want eli. badly.) And I'd pay $20 for Tattered Symphony, if someone had the presence of mind to make it into an official supplement printed by SJG. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:39:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line "Jason F. McBrayer" wrote: > Except that this was tried with In Nomine from the beginning, with the > Revelations Cycle. It didn't work very well, but the books did have > other problems. The "other problems" are what killed it. While some people do indeed hate metaplots, plenty of game lines have demonstrated that they tend to be more popular than not, IF executed well. The trick with a metaplot is not to make it impossible to run a campaign that deviates from the plot. - -David ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:48:04 -0400 From: "Matthew B. Gerber" Subject: Re: IN> Mishandling On Mon, 2001-09-17 at 01:58, Charles Phipps wrote: > One of the Angels of Final Judgement missed a Hellsworn who repented > with their last breath and fufilled their destiny. It was really > ingenious the way Asmodeus snuck his former soldier past. > > It was the princible of the thing you know. From the very odd thoughts department.... it seems to me that you need a really, really, really high-Contrast scenario to get Asmodeus to even *try* this. This is about as Against The Rules as you get in In Nomine. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:39:07 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line At 9:31 AM -0600 9/17/01, Ben Glickler wrote: > >And I'd pay $20 for Tattered Symphony, if someone had the presence of mind >to make it into an official supplement printed by SJG. Sadly, there's already more than a sourcebook's material in Tattered - -- I doubt we could get away with a single $20 supplement. And don't even start on how long the damnable Bramswitch Folio would be in its complete form.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Impudite of Secrets -- or Mercurian of Revelation (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:56:23 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line >And I'd pay $20 for Tattered Symphony, if someone had the presence of mind >to make it into an official supplement printed by SJG. I must have missed something here. Tattered Symphony????? Illumionation requested. Cheers. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:54:34 -0300 (ADT) From: Philip Vincent Barkow Subject: Re: IN> Mishandling On 17 Sep 2001, Matthew B. Gerber wrote: > On Mon, 2001-09-17 at 01:58, Charles Phipps wrote: > > > One of the Angels of Final Judgement missed a Hellsworn who repented > > with their last breath and fufilled their destiny. It was really > > ingenious the way Asmodeus snuck his former soldier past. > > > > It was the princible of the thing you know. > > >From the very odd thoughts department.... it seems to me that you need a > really, really, really high-Contrast scenario to get Asmodeus to even > *try* this. This is about as Against The Rules as you get in In Nomine. It doesn't need to be high-Contrast, it just needs to be Dark. The Angels of the Final Judgement might just be there for symbolic reasons. Allowed to stay there by the forces of Hell as long as they don't make too much trouble. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:50:12 -0700 From: Charles E Smith Subject: IN>Impudites and Violent Words I have a question about Impudites and their service to violent Words. Maybe its' me, but I have problems wrapping my mind around the concept of an Impudite of Death, or the War, Cruelty, or Nightmares. Those Words specialize in terrorizing and hurting mortals, and Impudites are people demons. Any thoughts on how an Impudite of Baal's or Beleth's can function without becoming a puddle of Discord? ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:15:02 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Mishandling >From: Philip Vincent Barkow > >It doesn't need to be high-Contrast, it just needs to be Dark. The Angels >of the Final Judgement might just be there for symbolic reasons. Allowed >to stay there by the forces of Hell as long as they don't make too much >trouble. > Or maybe it's quite common for Hell to smuggle in souls through secret routes that the angels don't (yet) know about, such that the angels of final judgement never see them. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:15:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN>Impudites and Violent Words Charles E Smith wrote: > Maybe its' me, but I have problems wrapping my mind around the > concept of an Impudite of Death, or the War, Cruelty, or > Nightmares. Those Words specialize in terrorizing and hurting > mortals, and Impudites are people demons. I don't think Nightmares poses a problem. Impudites can't physically harm humans, but there's nothing against making them emotionally miserable. As for The War, those Impudites probably go after angels; no dissonance for whacking *them*. I don't recall the band attunement for Death Impudites. Maybe it includes a waiver. Or maybe they can connive and persuade mortals to kill themselves and each other, so long as they're not at the scene when it happens. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:46:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN>Impudites and Violent Words On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Charles E Smith wrote: > I have a question about Impudites and their service to violent Words. > Maybe its' me, but I have problems wrapping my mind around the concept of > an Impudite of Death, or the War, Cruelty, or Nightmares. Those Words > specialize in terrorizing and hurting mortals, and Impudites are people > demons. Any thoughts on how an Impudite of Baal's or Beleth's can > function without becoming a puddle of Discord? Well, Death and the War both waive the Impudite's Dissonance conditions! So I don't see the issue there... obviously, other Impudites will look at these Takers funny, but those violent Imps found a home... Nightmares isn't violent, IMO, unless you count make-believe violence, so no issue there. Cruelty, OTOH... well, I don't have my books with me so I don't know if Magog has a Dissonance waiver as well. At any rate, Cruelty can be mental as well as physical, and considering that when I think "Impudite", I think "date rapist", I have no problem picturing them being *quite* cruel. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Anything sounds profound if you put it in quotation marks and sign it Anonymous." -- Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:30:39 +0100 From: "Adam Benedict Canning" Subject: Re: IN> What with one thing and another, this subject came up last night > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:30:06 +0100 > From: Omentide > > >It would be entirely defensible to have a vampire be > consumed by holy > >fire from the inside-out if they drunk from an > angelic/saint's vessel. > >(Demonic ones, on the other hand... in a game where vampires are > >definitely"evil", a demon's blood should be potent but > damaging, I'd say. > >Kind of a vampiric super-stimulant.) > > Not sure. A vessel is a vessel whether made in Heaven or > Hell. It is > simply a celestial vessel. A fallen angel can still > inhabit the same > vessel. A vessel is therefore a shell in which the > celestial can reside no > matter whether angel or demon and the content of flesh, > blood and bone etc, > remain the same. Given that Normal humans in WoD can have blood poisonous to vampires I can see that being one of the characteristics the Aechangle who makes the vessel will add quite frequently. Besides an angel is a self aware symbol of faith, and given the way faith affects vampires in WoD, any vampire that tries to aquire angel snacks is truly dead. See Hunters Hunted for what drinking communion wine does to vampires as an example. Worryingly one could equally well argue the same for hell. > Drinking a saint is a different matter..... Thier bodies not being designed with the war in mind. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:52:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Omentide wrote: > > >And I'd pay $20 for Tattered Symphony, if someone had the presence of mind > >to make it into an official supplement printed by SJG. > > I must have missed something here. Tattered Symphony????? http://www.godmachine.org/tattered http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tattered Seems like someone has to answer this question at *least* once a week, doesn't it? :) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Human germ!" -- Shrapnel (Decepticon), _Transformers: The Movie_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:53:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Sadly, there's already more than a sourcebook's material in Tattered > -- I doubt we could get away with a single $20 supplement. And don't > even start on how long the damnable Bramswitch Folio would be in its > complete form.... Well, pure flavor like that could remain online, in a "Resources" section... but you're right. Tattered would require a book the size of the main book, quite frankly. It's one hell of a HUGE add-on. Personally, I'd also love to see Dark Victory done as a normal-size book; it would fit just fine, and represents yet another wonderful universe to game in. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "People love to be told what to do. They love not doing what they've been told even more. They love it the most when they are made to do it anyway." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:44:20 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line > Sadly, there's already more than a sourcebook's material in Tattered > -- I doubt we could get away with a single $20 supplement. And don't > even start on how long the damnable Bramswitch Folio would be in its > complete form.... I'd pay $20 for Tattered Symphony and $20 for Tattered Symphomy II, then. :-) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:38:08 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line From: "Maurice Lane" > > Then you've got people like me. Damned if _I_ know > what my favored style is, unless weird counts. More like "Kicking over the anthill to see what boils out." 's one of my favorites, too. ;) - -- Casca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:16:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> When I grow up, I want to be a .....Part VIII - --- james walker wrote: > When I grow up, I want to be an Elohite. Wow. I _still_ like this series. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:29:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line - --- "Jason F. McBrayer" wrote: > Except that this was tried with In Nomine from the > beginning, with the > Revelations Cycle. It didn't work very well, but the > books did have other problems. How much of the failure was due to the Revelations metaplot and how much due to those other problems? Until that question is answered, it's unfair to blame the metaplot. > Metaplots are a problem. Some people really like them, > some people really don't. Which is why it pays to know your target audience. WW knows who their core audience is -- goth types and goth wannabes who like the dark, angsty stuff. The metaplot goes over big with that crowd. By the same token, Shadowrun pulls in the action junkies who want a combat system that realistic (or at least realistically deadly). What's the target audience for IN? Does anybody know? How would we based on the vague setting available in the material published so far? Bottom line; metaplot isn't good or bad in and of itself. If it sells to the intended audience, it's good. If it doesn't, it's bad. But the makers of the game have to decide who the intended audience is before that determination can be made. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:14:10 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> How long do I hold it? [OT - Private Replies Only] At 09:54 AM 9/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >I personally think that the ingredients you selected were a little to >restrictive. >They rely on the folks being in to that scene and thus gettign ides from it. No, they don't. I have never heard of any of the listed songs, let alone heard the music itself. (I think I might have heard of one of the three performers.) As I read it, the intent was not to use the songs for inspiration, or the lyrics in the context of the songs, but the lyrics themselves, as separate entities. It's sort of like complaining that lettuce isn't a valid ingredient because you've never eaten a salad. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:21:16 +0800 From: "Manny Nepomuceno" Subject: IN> Web site's up! *clears throat* I am pleased to announce that I have finally put up an In Nomine-related Web site at http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools/ . That's all. Thanks. ;) Manny Neps ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:15:33 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> [Successors] Sandalphon: The Senegorin This is coming out later than I'd planned. Last week threw some monkey wrenches into everyone's plans, of course. Hopefully by the end of the week you'll see some codification of Sandalphon's Servitors et al. *** *** *** SANDALPHON The Senegorin The coming of the Shekinah to Heaven created a considerable stir -- in part because of Sandalphon's mere existence. By appearing as the Archangel of the Presence, Sandalphon had restored an immediacy of the Divine in Heaven. However, where the Metatron was God's Voice, and therefore able to explain God's Will, the Shekinah was God's Presence -- in a way, His Eyes. For Laurence, the explanation was simple. Sandalphon was the Holy Spirit made manifest. That the Holy Spirit appeared in many forms and guises, and used many different names throughout Heaven and Earth did not disturb Laurence -- the Lord was mysterious, and His ways were not to be questioned. And, as the General of the Host felt this way, the rest of the Host was content to accept Sandalphon. Not, it should be said, that the Archangel of the Presence made this easy. "Sufficient has been quoted to demonstrate how untenable is the view that the Talmudic conception of God is wholly transendental. However reluctant the teachers of Israel were to identify God with His Universe and insisted on His being exalted high above the abode of men, yet they thought of the world as permeated through and through with the omnipresent Shechinah [sic]. God is at once above the universe and the very soul of the Universe. (Abraham Cohen, _Everyman's Talmud_, Schocken Books, New York 1995)" The Emanations of Sandalphon became a common sight among the Angels of the Heavenly City. Her numerous incarnations could be seen wandering the mosques and churches, partaking of the Bazaar and the Library's ambiance, moving through the Halls of Progress and the Celestial Tribunal. Ozah of Sandalphon, an Emanation who appeared as a blue-black, smooth metal ball, reflecting images around it and speaking with the lips of those reflections, took to floating in the Council Spire, observing the workings of the Seraphim Council. But not partaking. While Ozah of Sandalphon was willing to talk to Angels and Archangels, Bodhisattvas and Saints alike, Ozah of Sandalphon never offered insight, advice or a vote in meetings of the Seraphim Council itself, and no other Emanation appeared in the Council Spire. It seemed the Shekinah was content to let the Host make its own decisions. However, those decisions did not seem to apply to Sandalphon herself. When Dominic ordered Sandalphon's presence in an inquiry -- as a witness, not a defendent -- no Emanation of Sandalphon appeared. When asked about this, Malmeliyah of Sandalphon, who appears as a hazy cloud of symbols, letters, hieroglyphs and other significators, said "the Justice of the Host is righteous, but the Presence of the Lord is not found in Books of Law, whether the Laws of Angel or Man." It also became clear that Sandalphon did not intend to follow the commands Laurence issued, but instead held herself apart, observing and commenting without ingratiating or subordinating to the hierarchy of the Host. This clearly began to cause problems, especially when the Angels of the Host began seeking out the counsel of Sandalphon in lieu of obeying their Superiors. This could not be allowed to continue, but Laurence was loathe to command the Holy Spirit as he might the Host, and even Dominic had pause when considering subjecting the Shekinah to the Holy Inquisition. Sandalphon chose to resolve this conflict with the creation of the Senegorin, which began with contrasts, and the calling of the Advocate Angels. Seven of Sandalphon's Emanations descended from the Crystal Mount, and moved to the Cathedrals and gathering places of other Archangels. They did not ask permission, but neither were they turned away. The first of these to reach his goal was Veryah of Sandalphon, whose aspect was of fiery men, powerful and destructive, who moved into the Gardens of Novalis, his feet smoldering the grasses when he walked. He ignored the distress and movement of the Novalians, seeking out one who meditated quietly before an oak tree, kneeling next to Novalis herself. Silently, Veryah of Sandalphon extended his burning hand towards Sabaoth, Master of Peace and one of the strongest of Novalis's Malakim. And just as silently Sabaoth turned away from Novalis, and kissed the burning hand of Veryah of Sandalphon, and followed Veryah of Sandalphon out of Novalis's garden, her former Superior stunned to see it. Yahsiyah of Sandalphon, cloaked in the mists of a summer morning, with hints of green grass and broad trees, and bright flowers first opening for the day slipped among the Groves of War next, and where she walked, the Michaelites paused in their practice and training, watching her pass and filled with an uncomfortable peace -- the quiet of animals before the Earth quakes. There she moved to where Astanphaios, Mercurian Master of Valor was consulting with his fellows on a diplomatic issue. As Astanphaios turned to face her, she flowed over him, submerging him in her green essence. As she flowed off, Astanphaios followed, heedless of the protests of his comrades. Saktas of Sandalphon, who moved as a cloud of icy and roiling cold, images of terrible bear's claws and fox's teeth in its depths, flowed into the lip of the Volcano, its frigid form hissing and steaming in the neverending Fire. And there, Saktas of Sandalphon sought out Jao, Elohite Master of the Flame of Heaven. Jao stared into the glacial depths of Saktas of Sandalphon with luminous red eyes that slowly turned ice blue, and followed Saktas of Sandalphon back to the Crystal Mount. In the depths of the Catacombs, where David's Servitors meditate in the heart of Stone itself, Gale Raziya of Sandalphon entered, wearing the seeming of the brightest of lights, with searing points of light darting all through it and driving back the eternal night of the cave. There, Gale Raziya of Sandalphon found Adonaios of the Silent Ones, an ancient Ofanite Master of the Granite Hand who, like all of the Silent Ones, lay within a crystalized form after millions of years of contemplation. Adonaios was one of the few Ofanim to even attempt such a feat -- which courted Dissonance -- and was the only one to succeed, by remaining fully active in meditation, if not celestial body. Gale Raziya of Sandalphon let its burning motes of light flow through the crystal of the frozen Ofanite for a long moment, before its crystal flame turned hot and spun once more. And then, Adonaios followed Gale Raziya of Sandalphon out from the Catacombs and into the light. In the windswept trees where the Servitors of Janus perch and speak, there was a hue and cry as Tetrasiyah of Sandalphon, made to appear a collection of ever shifting, ever changing stones in a pile, did sweep up and along, bending the branches and deflecting the wind itself, and surround Oraios, Cherub Master of Motion. Oranios cocked her horse's head and listened to words only she could hear, and then flew after Tetrasiyah of Sandalphon, leaving Janus behind -- and this was no scandal, for it was a change, after all. Jaldabaoth, Master of Law and oldest Kyriotate in service to Dominic, Archangel of Judgement, was startled as Miton of Sandalphon, wreathed in lightning and steel appeared at the Gates of the Divine Inquisition, sweeping in and striking with cacophany and chaos where Jaldabaoth lay nestled. After long moments, the Kyriotate's infinite shifts stopped being of eyes and scales and books and robes, and instead became motes of light in the darkness, and Jaldabaoth left with Miton of Sandalphon, breaking the Law of Judgement's Service without care. The last of the goals was reached by Eved of Sandalphon, hidden in shadows that sometimes held eyes. Eved of Sandalphon slipped into the Bazaar and came upon Ailoaios, Seraph Master of Finances, engaged in quiet debate with Marc himself. Marc moved to speak to Eved of Sandalphon, who answered him amiably, not speaking of any mission, but as Marc turned back to his Servitor, Ailoaios was already gone, now and forevermore. As these powerful, heretofore loyal Angels defected from their Service to enter into the Service of the Shekinah, Ozah of Sandalphon, who appeared as a smooth metal ball, blue-black, reflecting all around it, drifted close to Saklas, Mercurian of Destiny who was honored to serve as the page of the Seraphim Council, and gave him a message. Saklas entered the Seraphim Council as it was assembling, half in shock and half in outrage at this purported "Archangel of the Presence" who dared bewitch the loyal Servitors of loyal Archangels. As Saklas approached, and asked to speak, Ozah of Sandalphon once again drifted into silent place, observing. Saklas said "I have been asked to present this message to you, the Seraphim Council, from Sandalphon, the Shekinah, she who is Co-Sister to the Metatron and Archangel of the Presence. She begins: my honored comrades -- you have come to desire my involvement with Celestial Affairs and my support in the War, and both are my duty as Angel and Child of Heaven. However, as the Shekinah, mine is the responsibility to oversee other responsibilities, of which I may say no more. "It has been said that none may serve two Masters, and so here this is true as well. And so, while my mission must take precedence, I have called upon seven of the most honored and special of Servitors of Heaven, each chosen from where he might be most rare. A Malakite of Flowers. A Seraph of Trade. A Mercurian of War. An Ofanite of Stone. An Elohite of Fire. A Kyriotate of Judgement. A Cherub of the Wind. All honored, and all perhaps the First among the unWordBound of their Choir, at least among their Superior's Service. Each has answered that call. "And He who is our Creator has visited his Presence upon them, making them Servitors of the Presence, and naming each among the WordBound: Sabaoth, the Angel of Sanctity; Ailoaios, the Angel of Illumination; Astanphaios, the Angel of Mystery; Adonaios, the Angel of Rapture; Jao, the Angel of the Confessional; Jaldabaoth, the Angel of Tongues; and Oraios, the Angel of Sanctuary. And these seven, along with Sandalphon herself, shall be the only Angels of the Presence to be named and given Words from without the Seraphim Council. "These Seven shall form the Hebdomad -- the Advocate Angels, who shall command all the Servitors of the Presence who come, be they recruits given leave by their Superiors, Relievers who Fledge into Service, or Angels crafted by Sandalphon. The Hebdomad in turn will participate in the Seraphim Council, and will accept the commandments of that body and Laurence, the General of the Host. And the Servitors of the Presence shall be called the Senegorin, and the Senegorin will accept the commands of the Hebdomad, of Laurence and the Seraphim Council, as members of the Heavenly Host. "And, where their duties allow, they shall participate in the work of the Shekinah, for they remain Servitors of the Presence, and Sandalphon is their Superior. "This ends the message of the Shekinah, conveyed by Ozah of Sandalphon to me." And Saklas grew silent. The Seraphim Council debated this, of course. Dominic in particular resisted Sandalphon's assertations. Yes, Dominic accepted the word of God before the word of *any* Angel, including himself. But while Sandalphon was undoubtedly the Angel of the Presence, there was no way to know if the calling of the Servitors came from God or came from Sandalphon herself. An investigation and perhaps trial were clearly warranted. However, Laurence actively argued against either of these courses -- Sandalphon had, he believed, been sent by God to do God's Work, and it was not mete to judge God. In the end, Laurence -- supported by Michael, Novalis and David, who all had lost Servitors -- carried the meeting, and the Seraphim Council recognized the Senegorin. And, from that day forward, the Senegorin began working in Heaven and on Earth, loyally serving in the War while still working the will of Sandalphon herself. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Impudite of Secrets -- or Mercurian of Revelation (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2377 ********************************