in_nomine-digest Monday, September 17 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2378 In this digest: Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line - Fiction Re: IN>Impudites and Violent Words Re: IN> Mishandling Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> Mishandling Re: IN> [Successors] Sandalphon: The Senegorin Re: IN> [Successors] Sandalphon: a few notes IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #2377 Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> How long do I hold it? [OT - Private Replies Only] Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line IN> When I grow up, I want to be.....Part IX IN> When I grow up, I want to be a.......Part X ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:45:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line At 9:48 AM +0000 9/17/01, cassandra benner wrote: >Perry has brought a a very good point here, its one that has been raised a >few times in the list aswell and still the bosses do nothing about it. > >I Thought this was an official IN group, insomuch as that it is used to >sound out the players for thier wants and needs. I'm afraid that you've gotten some of the nuances wrong on that count. It's not used to sound out players per se. That's a happy accident when it happens -- and it has gotten some results in the past, such as the Superior books. (Those were The Most Wanted Books for a time.) >Why dont we just base it on the real world? >Well, we do but we have no feedback from SJG about how the AA's and DP's and >others are represented in this world. I'm not sure I understand that -- what exactly do you want to know there? What questions come to your mind, what _precise_ questions? (Because, "more stuff" is just useless for actually having a prayer of giving someone what they want.) What do you need that isn't being provided by the Superiors books, for instance? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:45:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line - Fiction At 6:58 AM -0400 9/17/01, S.D. wrote: >Has anyone ever thought about trying their hand at an In Nomine fiction series? SJ Games does not, at this time, have the license for IN fiction. Believe me, should SJ Games _get_ the license, there'd be this huge manuscript stack landing on SJ's desk, with a pair of glasses barely peeking hopefully over the top of it... I don't know what the license would cost, I don't know if it would be cost effective, etc. If people want, really want, fiction and would buy it (not, "buy it if I had the money," but "buy it" with a price range), then send ME personal email, with [FICTION VOTE] in the title, and if I get enough of them I will make the number known to SJ. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:45:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Impudites and Violent Words At 8:50 AM -0700 9/17/01, Charles E Smith wrote: >I have a question about Impudites and their service to violent Words. >Maybe its' me, but I have problems wrapping my mind around the concept of >an Impudite of Death, or the War, Cruelty, or Nightmares. Those Words >specialize in terrorizing and hurting mortals, and Impudites are people >demons. Any thoughts on how an Impudite of Baal's or Beleth's can >function without becoming a puddle of Discord? They have exceptions in their Band Attunements, to start. Well, Baal's do. Beleth's get off on terrifying humans -- in such a way, presumably, that the poor mortal will then cling to the Taker (Mmmm, Essence!) as a "savior" or some such. But Death Impudites -- who can steal Essence from corpses -- and Baalite Takers (who get to kill in 'fair' combat), and even Kobalites (it's okay if a human dies so long as it's Funny) have a Band Attunement that specifically exempts them from their dissonance condition to a greater or lesser extent. Belial's, presumably, are really stuck on abandoned buildings and such, but hey, no one's accused Belial of being a rocket scientist. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:45:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Mishandling At 10:03 AM -0500 9/17/01, David Edelstein wrote: >First: the Angels of Final Judgment wouldn't make that mistake. Now, now, when one tacks IMC onto things, it's possible to do a lot of weird stuff -- a Prince whose speciality is subterfuge might be able to do something like that. I will make no judgments on it unless I hear the explanation, and I don't need to hear the explanation. O:> >Second, if they did, Heaven would probably feel obligated to mount an >assault to rescue the damned soul. Dominic would, certainly, though cooler heads might squawk. Swapping prisoners might be suggested. Commando teams might be suggested. Having some would-be defecting demons prove their loyalty might be suggested. Brainwashing Habbalah (of _course_ you're angels! Put in Hell under the Prince's noses for this VERY event!) might be suggested. If you want to use it in a game, I'd stick the Council in undefined wrangling, let the PCs know, listen to what the players discuss about it, and go with what the _players_ think is most logical. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:53:45 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line From: "S.D." > > You could publish the 'Consider...' stories in one book and I'd > buy it, despite being on the list for them all. I would do the same for the Caliah stories, if we could ever swing the publishing rights for fiction... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:03:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Mishandling Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Brainwashing Habbalah (of _course_ you're angels! Put in Hell > under the Prince's noses for this VERY event!) might be suggested. Oh, I *like* that one! Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:41:18 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> [Successors] Sandalphon: The Senegorin I like it! Very epic in its crafting. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:26:41 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> [Successors] Sandalphon: a few notes Some folks have asked me about the historical/theological/mythological underpinnings of the Sandalphon stuff, so I thought I'd type some up. Note that I'm taking disparate elements of multiple traditions, throwing them against the wall, and seeing what sticks, so *please* don't think Sandalphon is supposed to represent anything particularly Orthodox. Sandalphon (Sandelphon) herself is in fact associated with Metatron, and Sandalphon equates to "Co-brother" in Greek. Sandalphon is reputed to be the tallest of all the angels, being equal in height to 'a 500 year journey,' which I tried to invoke with Sandalphon's monumental appearance in Heaven. Sandalphon is 'co-brother,' but is also seen as female, especially in his/her role as bearer of he Ark of the Covenant, which itself seems an appropriate role for the Angel of the Presence (which is another of Sandalphon's appelations). Sandalphon is a Kyriotate by convention, and because I've applied the thematic device of the 76 (or 105, depending on source) names for the Metatron to her, and therefore want to allow her to be many beings at once. Said 76 names, as I said, were originally the Metatron's, and I'm using them wholesale from the Davidson _Dictionary of Angels._ The Shekinah principle also reinforces a feminine image of Sandalphon, as the Shekinah is seen as the female manifestation of God in Man. Christian theology equates the Shekinah with the Holy Spirit, and the Talmud of the Jews uses it to represent God's Presence. In her female visage she also blesses unions between men and women. The Senegorin are indeed the Advocate Angels, associated with the Metatron, and so they make a nice group name for Sandalphon's Servitor's. As for Jaldabaoth, Jao, Sabaoth, Adonaios, Astanphaios, Ailoaios and Oraios -- well, they don't have a thing to do with any of the above originally, but are instead the seven great Archons (leaders) of Ophitic Gnosticism. They happened to be on the same page as the 76 names of Metatron, so they got pressed into service since 7 Archons = 7 Major Choirs very nicely. The Hebdomad comes from that same Gnostic system. (For those who care, Saklas, the page of the Seraphim Council, is an Archon in another Gnostic system.) The Words given to the 7 aren't anything but my own invention, and they're all pending SJGames deciding it's about time to fix all the In Nomine server stuff so I can check the InCyclopedia and see if I've repeated Words from official sources (if there isn't already an Angel of Sanctuary, I'll be *stunned.*) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Impudite of Secrets -- or Mercurian of Revelation (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:33:48 -0400 From: "T Howell" Subject: IN> RE: in_nomine-digest V1 #2377 My thoughts on the In Nomine line: Three things first attracted me to the In Nomine game - the religious aspect, the evocative color artwork, and the story at the beginning of the rules. The religion made me say, "wow! so much background to draw from, so many stories, so many moral conflicts!". The story made me rethink my preconceptions about what angels and demons were like. The art just impressed me. No other book in the line has made such an impression - perhaps that's the problem. No other book was as ambitious. What we need is a book with ambition. Like a "Beyond the Mountains of Madness" style campaign setting/adventure. Like a sourcebook for dealing with angels as long-lived beings (flashbacks to earlier encounters Highlander-style). Like Neil Gaiman's "American Gods" or even GOO's "Heaven and Earth." In Nomine MUST NOT be written like it is GURPS. In Nomine should not be dry rulebooks - it should read like Deadlands sourcebooks. TJ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:43:53 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line > > I feel has failed its audience and > >consumers in one greatly tragic way : lack of a game > >world that's developing, changing, and growing. Moe : > Nice sentiment: only thing is, who takes it on the > chin? > > That's not facetious, actually. Look around, and > you'll see that most of the people on this list* do > not agree on what the world of IN should look like. > Then you've got people like me. Damned if _I_ know > what my favored style is, unless weird counts. I hear that. > All of this is all very well, of course, except that > choosing one world, one setting, one paradigm (can you > tell that I bought another Mage product?) will > eliminate the others. Nature of the beast, and all > that. That means that a large portion of your > existing fan base is now sucking air, /no matter which > category you pick/**. Not good for short term sales - > especially since you lose the associated writers, too. While I do agree with you, I'm playing Elohite here, an Elohite who's main concern is the financial survival of a game line. WoD states over and over again that the players and Storytellers are more than welcome to change whatever rules they want and change the setting in whatever way they want, yet they maintain a general official feel for their games, they maintain growing official game worlds, and you know what ? I -think- their sales are better than ours. There are lots of people out there who prefer to play the games they want to. They're going to do that whether or not there's an official setting. But there are more people out there who are more comfortable with an official setting, and even more who are buying WW's books if only to see what cool new stuff is happening in the WoD universe. Cas : >Why dont we just base it on the real world? >Well, we do but we have no feedback from SJG about how the AA's and DP's and >others are represented in this world. I think that this is an excellent idea, if only judging from the GMGpp92-94, where there is some clear interplay between real world events and Celestial politics, Christopher and the Children's Crusade, Laurence and the Reformation, Eli and Zoroaster . . . if IN can have a canon past rooted in real world events, why not a present and future ? Omentide : >The problem with adding colour and background is that it can become >restrictive. As stated elsewhere the more background material produced the >more the game world can become set in stone. This could well drive away >just as many players as it brings in. Except that . . . those who wish to change a game world will, with or without a "set/canon" setting. Establishing a canon game world with canon events and canon secret socieities opens up the game line to those who enjoy reading about the developments in the game world. Most of my friends who are WoD fan *never actually play* with the books they buy. They buy the books because they're fun to read, and they're fun to read because stuff happens in them, and because of the "authority" that a canon game world lends to such stuff, it becomes important, and the reader can feel like they're privy to something special. WW cashes in on that. I don't buy GURPS supplements that have stuff in them I don't need for my games, the same has been true for In Nomine. I *do* buy INSMV books because of the cool stories, art, and game world plot developments inside them, and I don't even get to play INSMV (and probably never will). >>--- Maurice Lane wrote: >> So, is there anyone here that wants to sacrifice their >> own favorite interpretation of the game line for the >> betterment of all? Michael Walton : > Actually, yes. WW, TSR and the makers of INS/MV have all >presented set storylines and game worlds with the >disclaimer that the GM is free to change them. This works. I don't even have to give up my vision, since I create my vision of a game world with or without the permission of the producers of the game. >I, for one, would be more than willing to see canon >take a 90 degree turn from my interpretation. After all, I >can only buy future supplements if the line is still alive. > And I can always change things to however I want them to >be in my campaign. Agreed. Jason McBrayer : >Except that this was tried with In Nomine from the beginning, with the >Revelations Cycle. It didn't work very well, but the books did have >other problems. I should point out the Elizabeth wasn't there to curb that author's attempts (correct me if I'm wrong, but I tihnk there was a baby in there somewhere), and his "adventures" were fundamentally flawed : PCs can't be put in a position to "define" the events in the _fixed_ game setting. That doesn't work, instead they should be sent in to investigate, deal with clean-up, or with minor plots that surround the metaplot. >Metaplots are a problem. Some people really like them, some people >really don't. I can't really judge from the web press (places like >RPG.net) whether gamers in general like them, because sites like that >really aren't representative. Metaplots may or may not sell well, but >they certainly generate a lot of ill-will in some circles. This is true to a certain extentm I know that many Ravnos and Tremere fans are pissed that their favorite clans gots messed up recently in the official WoD universe, but (a) GMs can do whatever they want and (b) games that take place in a single game world and have a continuing official plot line are evidenced to sell better, bottom line. I also note that the members of those circles in which there is still ill-will, they're still buying the products, to see what happens next. _To see what happens next._ Ben Glickler: >So I'd like to add my voice to this. Instead of giving players a plot >(we've proven we can make our own), we need more books like this: > >In Nomine Dark Ages (i'm begging you, here!) >The Fall >The Ethereal Player's Guide >The Disavowed Player's Guide >More Superior Books (more begging. i want eli. badly.) I think that Historical IN is the BEST way for the producers of the IN line to go if they're unwilling to define set game world events. Here they can provide the "canon" IN history/intrigue, with an adventure, then alternative histories, "what else could have caused history to turn out this way." History is over, we know how it all turned out . . . unless the Truth has been covered up and new one put in its place. This gives you plenty of material from real life to use, plenty of conspiracy theories/myths to draw upon (GURPS Cabal springs to mind), and the best part is, since the history has already been "defined" in real life, the GM can ignore everything that she doesn't want or need in her game. Sorry not to flood the list with a whole lot of posts and instead with one large post than no one will really bother to read. :-) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd Qu'est qui de vert devient rouge et frappe frénétiquement à la porte ? Un scout dans un four à micro-onde. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:00:32 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> How long do I hold it? [OT - Private Replies Only] From: "EDG" > > As I read it, the intent was not to use the songs for > inspiration, or the lyrics in the context of the songs, but the lyrics > themselves, as separate entities. That was how I read it, also. Which reminds me: Could somebody forward me a copy of the lyrics? Because I forgot to print them out, and I have time to do some intensive work on my submission (should be done and ready for submission within the next couple of days.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:31:22 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:38:08 -0400 "Eric Bertish" writes: > From: "Maurice Lane" > > > > Then you've got people like me. Damned if _I_ know > > what my favored style is, unless weird counts. > > More like "Kicking over the anthill to see what boils out." > > 's one of my favorites, too. ;) Moe Lane as: The Celestial Hunter. "Ooh, let's poke this Malakite in the bum with a stick! Oh, he's REALLY pissed off now! (poke poke)" - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:46:32 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line Guys I feel the need to speak up. Moe, David, Michael,Alex, Charles, Beth, everyone what I'm going to say is going to be shocking so if anyone feels any loyalty to me as a poster please forgive me for what I'm about to say as to why the In Nomine game is troubled. I want to establish singing "God Bless America" that I love the In Nomine game and I only say the following because I love this game and want to see it recovered. It's a fantatic concept and my favorite game and the writers are geniuses....but... THE NINE THESIS 1. The Rulebook The In Nomine main sourcebook is the most horrofically organized thing I've ever seen in my life. The art is wonderful and sticking the Archangels and Angels/Demons and Demon Princes together is what a NORMAL rulebook should do. However the actual rules... I STILL HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT (Yes I've been playing and writing for this list for years and I still can't explain to you in a hundred words or less how to make a beginning character and what skills equal what) Theres sidebars for "Sex and the Single Celestial", Falling, Redemption, and Tethers when these things have no business not being more formally discussed....the first three at least should be part of a greater psychology section and not just hanging around! The combat sections are equally poorly organized with no examples that really explained to me any better the system and the artifact section the worst of them all... Yeah great giving us Compas of Attunement, Fiery Sword, etc and not saying what power level they are! The Skills section was inadequate with the haphazardly chosen it seems selection and no explanation for additional skills and the songs....and whether angels/demons actually make use of skills all that much in Heaven/Hell! (Gabriel in the Prophecy) Well frankly they were nice but are these all the songs, what ARE songs, and do all superiors and sides possess the same? 2. The Rules I'll say this up front I absolutely hate the In Nomine system and as I've explained it above I still haven't figured out character creation let alone how to run a honest to God game (Thank my ST for being very generous) The 3 1d6 is cute because it's 666 but it is not simpler its' confusing as hell! Power, Armor, Vessel and Charisma ties and the relationship between essence and forces all ties things too much together. The relationship between gaining skills, awards and experience points, etc all have been outlined in the Gamemaster's handbook but that information should have been given out in the main supplement! I understand Call of Cthulhu after reading it, I understood Star Wars after reading it, I understood D&D vaguely, and I understand WHite Wolf wonderfully but In Nomine again is hard to catch the drift of... Which brings me to another point... 3:) Index card sized character sheets You'd think dealing with immortal omnipotent beings such as celestials that you would have LARGER character sheets than this particular point. However these things righteously suck. And not just for PCs who want to record information but also the method for NPCS. Underneath Lauren the Stripper after skills, attunements, etc we get a few paragraphs that describe her appearence, personality, and background all in one. It would help if we adopted even D&D's (Not known for it's 3 dimensional characters) method of Appearence:, Roleplaying Hints:, and History. 4:) Awful Sourcebooks I'll keep my complains to a minium but reading the Book of Artifacts, Infernal Players Guide, and Book of Angels I was struck dumb by a amazing sensation.... I paid 20 dollars for this? The sheer banality of saying "what we already know" in these sourcebooks and I suspect the rest was amazing. I mean let's compare the sections of the Seraphim of the rulebook with the writeup in the Angel Player's guide.... There's really no new information there. I mean the Trisanogists and some cool sounding NPCs but that's it. I mean WHY are they the Most Holy? What's the Seraphim's general opinion on each superior? I mean I love the books but the only thing that I could really say "shocking revelation wise" was the idea the Malakim couldn't kill anyone following their own moral code and we know that was a typo. I'm glad I had the books but they were frankly more boring than anything. Where's the Nephilim organization about to take over or the "Freak Legion" aspects of them? Why did the Grigori harbor such putrid @@(@? 5:) The Superior Guides Superior Guide 3 was a work of Art and I have no complaints about that book and it's wonderfully warm babe, absolutely dreamy Blandine, or ultra cool Khalid....plus Yvesy baby. Superiors 1 however I'm not unhappy I bought and it had considerable info and cool works of art but again... "What you see is what you get" Dominic it turns out is GASP an okay cool guy but a hardass (What his writeup says he is), Laurence is this Catholic Knight boyscout (Surprise), and Michael the Most Holiest Defeater of Lucifer really is only leading his own private war on Hell. Again so freaking what? I mean I know angels are supposed to be One dimensional as part of their words but I was hoping for alittle bit more like Michaelite secret societies devoted to Michael as Mithras, Bringing World peace, diversity here. Like Clanbooks for Vampire or whatnot. I much prefer to the List for rumors like "Michael loves Novalis", "Laurence loves Blandine" and other things which flesh out the Archangels as characters and their plots. 6:) The Revelations Cycle I love these books, I honestly do. My only problem is that they read like a gaming magazine rather than a adventure and occasionally they didn't make sense...also with the Superior guides the "fleshings" out of the Superiors were the biggest wastes of space I've ever seen. I mean you cannot flesh out a 2 page superior writeup really with four pages. Occasionally I was proven wrong and some of my favorite superiors such as Magog, Christopher, and Mammon came from this. But they were cut off too soon! (By the way I found it annoying that Magog was killed by the way-he was an interesting character in the fact he was an archetypical demon. Personally I think some one-dimensional evil fleshed out a bit would help Hell actually rather than the ambiguious one size fits all at present. Even Bright Hells could beneifit from him-I mean we have Saminga!) 7:) Directionless The In Nomine game just seems to me to be floating along no matter how many ways you slice it. Okay let's write corporal players guide now....now ethereal etc, There's no sense of urgency and one of the coolest concepts of the War "the stalemate" has never actually been touched upon. People who complain about "too much" background information may look at me as an average gamer. Speak up if YOU YOURSELF are any different. I buy @*@* let's be perfectly honest that I have no business buying. The Gangrel, Nosferatu, etc sourcebooks...I don't have any Gangrel, Nosferat, etc in my party...I don't need any. I don't intend to have any.... Yet I bought them like I bought the In material such as the Revelations Cycle (which I'd never run) becuase of the IDEAS and STORIES (i've actually bought entire RPG supplements I'll never run just to read) Even a person who runs an "UP WITH HELL" supplement will buy the Angel's players guide where angels are LG softies in hopes of twisting some of the stuff around It would help the In people to drop a few plotlines here and there and see them come to fruitation later on. or say upfront "The Apcolypse is comming" even if most people prefer running nonapocolyptic games....there should be a "feel" for such a thing permating In or at least specific books. Which brings me to my next point. 8:) Religeon I appreciate In Nomine not trying to be offensive like the French Game while still maintaining some of it's satiric elements along with reverence.... Old In (not the French but first) reminds me of Dogma and present In....well that's the problem (Superiors 3 Excepted) Angels can and might interestingly be critters which fit into any religeon (including atheism) but it might be nice to so completely downplay it that it never comes up. You could if you want invent an entirely fictional "angelic" and Demonic spirituality...the GM's Guide goes into this and that makes it one of the most fun (along with Superiors 3) but more could have been done with it. Liber Religeons talking about Khalid's Jihad groups and how they react to the withdrawal of their Support, Laurence and the Catholic Church's army described in Night Music (WHAT THE *HELL* was that doing there? Really?), and General Celestial opinions such as Wicca and Angels. We arn't so utterly PC to create a game about angels I think that we can avoid things completely, also I think optional rules about Destiny and Fate like the resonence in GM might be helpful. I once got an e-mail saying they'd never do anything on "deathbed repentence" because it was too controversial. 9:) Untouched History The In Nomine world is rich with history but again it's just hanging there it seems. The Grigori Nephilim Lost Superiors Uriel and his Crusade (why Ethereal's player guide is so beloved) Higher Heavens Lower Hells Hell the very mysteries described in the back of the GM guide, yes campaigns can be done around them but some "possible" solutions are not entirely without question. For those who say that doing "too much info" risks alienating the fanbase I can sum it up.... If too much info did that then why the hell would I have shelled out 250 bucks for all these IN NOMINE books when I could just go.... "Hmmm I'll write my own game about angels tommorow." I like In Nomine's multi-levels of brightness and contrast, truly spectacular stuff but if that's a straight jacket dump it! There's enough grey in the real world to stick with something! - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:11:10 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line Charles Phipps wrote: > The In Nomine main sourcebook is the most horrofically organized thing I've > ever seen in my life. This has been a known issue since shortly after it came out. > I'll say this up front I absolutely hate the In Nomine system and as I've > explained it above I still haven't figured out character creation let alone > how to run a honest to God game (Thank my ST for being very generous) GURPS is available if you hate the IN system. I can't imagine that SJG is going to design a _third_ game system to use with IN, however. > 3:) Index card sized character sheets > > You'd think dealing with immortal omnipotent beings such as celestials that > you would have LARGER character sheets than this particular point. However > these things righteously suck. I've never seen a beginning celestial who wouldn't fit on them. Even among powerful celestials, they're not supposed to have laundry lists of powers. (OK, I write mine that way, but I can't help it, I'm a rules mechanics junkie. The game is _supposed_ to be simple with a fairly high level of abstraction.) > 4:) Awful Sourcebooks > > I'll keep my complains to a minium but reading the Book of Artifacts, > Infernal Players Guide, and Book of Angels I was struck dumb by a amazing > sensation.... > > I paid 20 dollars for this? > > The sheer banality of saying "what we already know" in these sourcebooks and > I suspect the rest was amazing. I mean let's compare the sections of the > Seraphim of the rulebook with the writeup in the Angel Player's guide.... Most people find sections of the APG that are deficient. The IPG is somewhat less so, but still problematic. I'm biased re: the Liber Reliquarum, but I really don't see it being among the Bottom 3 IN supplements. > There's really no new information there. I mean the Trisanogists and some > cool sounding NPCs but that's it. I mean WHY are they the Most Holy? What's > the Seraphim's general opinion on each superior? These are very much "The book has stuff someone else was interested in, not stuff *I* was interested in" complaints. > 6:) The Revelations Cycle > > I love these books, I honestly do. My only problem is that they read like a > gaming magazine rather than a adventure and occasionally they didn't make > sense...also with the Superior guides the "fleshings" out of the Superiors > were the biggest wastes of space I've ever seen. Again, a known issue. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:29:25 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line Granted, I haven't been playing the game for long, and I got in through GURPS, so now you know where I'm coming from. I think In Nomine can easily change, and has changed in the past. Hasn't Khalid gone from exile to acceptance? ...Okay, that's pretty much the single major change, and it stems from the Revelations Cycle. But it lays the groundwork for others in the same pattern. However, aren't the events that make the news every day a "storyline" that constantly grows and develops and provides new mulch for the Secret War? Here's an idea: regular short 'bulletins', based on real world news. Nothing any more earthshattering than what actually happened -- it's *all* a suggestion -- but outlining ways in which human events shape the War, and providing adventure seeds for players. An example from a typical week in the months ahead: - ---------------------- In Nomine News Bulletin, Sep. 30 -- Oct. 6 Belial and Saminga continued internecine fighting in Hell over who shall assign the Seneschal for the forked Tether at the WTC. The last Fire demon was soul-killed in the latest round of fighting, and the latest Seneschal is a 17-Force Samingan. Rumors that he is animating body parts are false, and put about by him to make him seem more formidable. Davidian Mercurians and Cherubim have successfully worked a dozen or so agents into the workers moving rubble and the engineers exploring the tunnels beneath the site. They maintain low profile but gain some intelligence on the Fire-Death struggle. Marc's angels, encouraged by the ability of Jeanites to reconstruct the exchange's technological infrastructure, were nevertheless disheartened at the extreme drop in U.S. and global financial markets Monday. They are working to restore some sense of confidence, but Marc expresses little hope that the impending global recession will be staved off. Baalites and Michaelites are struggling already in isolated areas of Afghanistan. Baal is believed to have infiltrated Taliban counsels and is pushing for the government to act as militantly as possible under international pressure to exile Osama bin Laden. Michael has stabilized a minor Tether at the United 93 crash site, but is not expected to assign a full Seneschal. Dominicans and Temoins have successfully stifled several voices calling for hasty and violent U.S. action, encouraging calmer and more reasoned heads to prevail for the moment. Janus is following investigative leads indicating Vapulan interest in replicating the planes' effects on other large buildings. Khalid has been briefly bolstered by the number of people turning to religion for solace; however, he is under increased attack from Malphas in the Middle East, as that Prince has also been strengthened by religious hatreds in the region. Jordi has reluctantly agreed to conscription as a 'perimeter watch' in areas abandoned by other Archangels, or left staffed with a skeleton crew, as angelic and demonic forces converge on New York. Animal angels express a general desire to be relieved of this duty soon, as many are in uncomfortably close contact with humans and towns. Not all the news is WTC-oriented. The new alliance between Mercurians of War and several Flowerchildren is holding, and indeed strengthening, through the modest success of joint efforts to repoen talks between North and South Korea. The project is, of course, long-term, but the alliance members are hopeful that they will hold the course. Jean reported success in eliminating two Vapulans from the FDA's primary advisory bodies on biotechnology and genetic engineering. Hit hard by the reduction of the heroin poppy population in recent years, Fleurity is experiencing success with synthetics and additives. Recent news reports show honey and artificial sweeteners encouraging youth smoking in numerous Third World countries where such additives are not illegal. Eli Watch: Eli was spotted more times than usual this week, appearing at several places of entertainment and education in the New York area. Gabriel Watch: Gabriel has not been reported this week. - ---------------------- William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:23:13 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> When I grow up, I want to be.....Part IX When I grow up, I want to be a Shedite. Most demonlings are fond of Shedim. In the status conscious world of Hell, demonlings are so insignificant that they are sometimes outranked by humans. How galling. But when a Shedite turns up, the demonlings can operate fine, while humans cower and cringe stunned by the Corruptors evil presence. It's nice to be reminded how insignificant the Damned really are. And to stick the boot in while the Damned are too stunned to respond. And some demonlings love nothing better than to hurt others. Not necessarily damage; they're not proto-Calabim. Hurt. To tear up their hopes and dreams, make them whimper. Sometimes, the demonling has been repeatedly hurt by demons, or more powerful demonlings, and just wishes to hurt as he has been hurt - humans are just convenient. Other times, the demonling is simply plain evil, and revelling in it. Hell is, after all, the best place in the Symphony to celebrate being evil. Other times, the demonling is fascinated by his prey. The Damned are a different species, after all, and do strange things for strange reasons. While a proto-Impudite is learning by befriending, the proto-Shedite learns by tormenting. After all, a demon is bound to pick on the demonling sooner or later; tormenting countless humans and seeing how they respond is a great way of learning new techniques for coping with abuse. They rarely learn anything about Earth; not much point really. A handful do, and may end up on Earth, tormenting the locals. Most don't bother; when they finally become Shedim they'll rely on their host's memories. It's worth noting that many demonlings won't know that a Shedite's resonance is possession. After all, you can't use that in Hell. Nor can you use the Song of Possession (so unless a demonling was using it while posted to earth, they won't know it at more than level/1 when they finally become Shedim). To a demonling, a Shedite's resonance is the horror they inspire in the Damned. And the Damned are a good target for horror. If a demonling picks a fight with another demonling, he risks making an enemy who will wax strong; Haagenti is his role model, after all. The Damned though - sure, Lilith made it, but she was alive when she did. The souls already in Hell will never amount to anything. You can torment them as much as you like. The proto-Shedim are hell's budding sadists, rapists and torturers. And one day, they'll be able to torment humans from the inside, twist them on to the path of darkness; draw them closer to the darkness, so that they will go to Hell; there to be tormented by the next generation of proto-Shedim. James. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:20:35 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> When I grow up, I want to be a.......Part X When I grow up, I want to be a Ofanite. It's a beautiful Symphony. While other angels concern themselves with humans or each other, the Ofanim are the most elemental choir. Fire, Wind and once Water are the most powerful Words they hold. Many will express surprise that Lightning isn't held by an Ofanite, until the nature of Lightning is explained; that lightning is about balancing energies, and tends to travel by the same route every time. Ofanim deal with the primal universe, spun out of chaos by God; and they love it dearly. While other angels discuss what they have learned by examining a human, the Ofanim revel in what they have seen; the joys of racing a sunset or hiking across a mountain range. There is so much to see and do. But surely they have eternity to do this in? Why the rush? No, they don't. The world is continually changing; today's sights will be gone tomorrow. True, tomorrow's sights will be gone the day after, but slower angels can witness those; the Ofanite can get the other angels to describe the changed site to him later. It is this love of God's creation that allows the Ofanim to obey the rule not to go to Hell. Sure, after killing a Soldier of Hell, a newbie Ofanite will follow the Damned Soul back to the Gates of Hell to see what it's like; but he won't be impressed. It's so ugly and pointless. The Ofanite wants to glory in God's work, not be depressed by cheap knock-offs. he'll leave and never return - there's so much more to see. He may, of course, keep an eye on a Child of the Grigori, waiting for the human to die a natural death, making sure they fulfil their Destiny - then he can follow that soul! Much more interesting. So how does this relate to relievers? A reliever can follow an Ofanite's path from day one - he has feet, after all. (And wings!) Heaven is a beautiful place, and there is much to explore. Each Cathedral is essentially limitless in size, making it a complete universe. The young reliever will soon know his way around his Superior's cathedral, and will likely become a guide, helping visiting angels and the Blessed. As he continues wandering, he will master the geography of Heaven. He's unlikely to be used as a messenger; full Ofanim fulfil that task. He will find himself being asked to escort other people around though - the fact that the reliever travels no faster than his charge will be greatly appreciated. As he travels Heaven, he will come to the attention of the Ofanim. Noting that they have seen him in several locations, they will recognise him as a fellow soul and question him on his travels. And be less than pleased if they don't get detailed answers. Where is the point of going somewhere if you don't SEE it? Where is the point of seeing it if you don't REMEMBER it? The reliever will be sent back to the sites he has visited, with a set of questions. What was the ceiling like? Where was worn? And so on. When he returns, the reliever will be questioned again - ignoring the questions they gave him. What was the most beautiful thing there? The most fragile? The most uplifting? Open your eyes and see! Even by the standards of Heaven, the reliever will be expected to become incredibly Perceptive. And then remember it! Again, the reliever will acquire a high Precision. The rewards for living up to the Ofanim's high standards are great - the ability to glory in God's universe; the ability to describe it, to help others to travel in it. Those relievers who also acquire a reasonable Will can expect guided tours of Blandine's March; once the reliever has met the Ofanim's standards he can run tours of Heaven for the Blessed. It's a good life, but not always easy. One grief that the reliever may share with his mentors is the aching desire to travel up Jacob's Ladder. This is probably the only time he'll actually get (or, to be fair, need) sympathy from the Ofanim. Born to move, to serve God, the inability to travel to God will sting. Also, the reliever may be surprised when his mentors insist that he acquire a modicum of book learning. Part of the Ofanite resonance is the ability to research in a hurry; failure to understand this until it's actually needed could Trip the newly fledged angel. Finally, the day comes when he Fledges. The new angel will be surrounded by Ofanim - and with good reason. This is a dangerous time for the new Wheel. He belongs to the only choir which routinely risks dissonance in Heaven. His mentors will watch him closely, ready to grant advice, to help him remove dissonance by succeeding at a failed task - even if the only way is to pump him full of essence. Still, they won't let him Trip; and success will prepare him for earth - and the Marches - and travelling to the moon, sun and stars! James. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2378 ********************************