in_nomine-digest Tuesday, September 18 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2379 In this digest: Re: IN> IN Game Line Re:IN>Impudites and Violent Words IN> In Nomine News Bulletin, Sep. 30 -- Oct. 6 IN> The Nine Thesis Re: IN> The Nine Thesis Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) IN> Ok Righty Ho Re: IN> Ok Righty Ho Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:43:25 GMT From: ben@zianet.com Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line I disagree, categorically, with every thing Charles Phipps finds wrong with the game -- the source books are awesome, the d666 system is awesome (it's something that made me love the game), everything is awesome. I think the Corporeal/Game Master's Guide are excellent. The Superiors line -- especially #2 -- are spectacular. Every time I show the game to everyone, they want to play it. They want to get the books. And they have a huge blast playing. Without a single exception, this is the reaction the game receives when I show it to people. So maybe it's *not* the game, guys, but the marketing? Except he's right that the rules are disorganized, but they are so much fun to read that it doesn't hurt anyone who really gets into it. And they are such easy rules, too, that we can make characters and be playing within a couple of hours. So, to say it again: More, please! Ben (did I say In Nomine Dark Ages?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:40:18 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: Re:IN>Impudites and Violent Words > I have a question about Impudites and their service to violent Words. > Maybe its' me, but I have problems wrapping my mind around the concept of > an Impudite of Death, or the War, Cruelty, or Nightmares. Those Words > specialize in terrorizing and hurting mortals, and Impudites are people > demons. Any thoughts on how an Impudite of Baal's or Beleth's can > function without becoming a puddle of Discord? Sure. The things is, it's a different reason for each. First point, though: Impudites like humans they way a connoisseur likes a fine wine - they're there to be enjoyed, savoured. An Impudite seeing a human killed feels the way the connoisseur would if you used a fine wine for washing your dishes. But remember, he always intended to drink the wine. Humans exist for the benefit of the Impudite. So long as the humans perceive the Impudite as the most important person around, all is well. Death - An Impudite of Death knows that dying isn't the end. So you're dead. I can fix that. Welcome to zombidom. Or maybe I can't be bothered. No matter; you're still useful, I can still strip you for essence! The War - The Impudite is the war hero; all eyes are on him. Sure, he'll only kill a human if it's in a 'fair' fight. Where's the point otherwise? Any Impudite will surround himself with admiring groupies; the Impudite of War deems his slain opponents to be the ultimate proof of his prowess. In a very real sense, the Impudite has bought into the warrior ethos; he hasn't really killed his foes; they'll live on forever as part of his glorious reputation. Cruelty - these guys, are well, warped. If an Impudite is a rake, taking essence with virtue, the leeches of torment are rapists. They take what they want, and to blazes with the concerns of others. Remember that even Andre was horrified when Magog was released! Nightmares - A very strange book I have includes the quote "if you must take a girl to the movies, go to a horror film so that she'll cling to you during the icky bits." You can't avoid the nightmares, the Impudite knows that. But you shouldn't. It's a very dangerous world, and if you're aren't frightened, you'll get hurt....you need me to defend you, to protect you; hope that I'm always here for you, you know how bad things will become if I have to leave you...... James. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:16:10 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> In Nomine News Bulletin, Sep. 30 -- Oct. 6 I disagree strongly about news bulletins. Frankly these things are better left untouched and it annoys me to hell to think that the Superiors are so utterly banal as to take credit/shift power over the horrofic events of today that mortals perpetuate. I'm of teh belief they are much more interested in trends. While some events might take their interest (DC and WW2 for instance and the superheroes vs. Nazis or India's caste system being a subject of great concern to angels) and this is all well and good...too much Archangel influences gives In Nomine angels far too much power over what has always been described as NOT a game about mortals being manipulated like pawns. Not to mention the shockingly bad taste. For instance while it's concievably possible that two Demons were behind the bombing (at least in In Nomine) up to masterminding it a tether only would exist if MORTALS did it and truly I can imagine Belial's reaction being? Belial: Yeah yeah, big fire, good for you. However what I want now is bombing in Afghanistan! It's not even distinction worthy. While a good adventure might be how horrofied Khalid is when he discovers that one of HIS groups was responsible with a soldier involved it might make for some good angst but again Superiors have better things to do than think on such 'Trivial things' as the individual horrors that change a generation such as us. Not to mention the Khalid thing is in shockingly bad taste as well though that would be a fun series of adventures to examine Khalid vs. his former servitors. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:24:37 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Nine Thesis >This has been a known issue since shortly after it came out. That's because it's true and people have higher than average perception scores David. The point is that the conversation was drifting to what was a problem with In Nomine selling and I wanted to give a few good reasons. >GURPS is available if you hate the IN system. I can't imagine that SJG >is going to design a _third_ game system to use with IN, however. Gurps: In Nomine is a wonderful supplement and I hope it's selling well for Steve Jackson games but I'm a glutton for punishment. Like Vampire fans the problem is that while the Vamprie system may suck all the supplementary information is in the old format. >I've never seen a beginning celestial who wouldn't fit on them. Even >among powerful celestials, they're not supposed to have laundry lists >of >powers. (OK, I write mine that way, but I can't help it, I'm a rules >mechanics junkie. The game is _supposed_ to be simple with a fairly >high >level of abstraction.) Just because it's supposed to be something doesn't make it necessarily right. New Coke was supposed to taste different than Old Coke but did that help it's sales? It's also something to be rather complimentary but only where credit is due that your webpages are among the most popular In Nomine sourcebooks I've seen used including in my games. In Nomine as the game for mature minds might due better than a system that sometimes seems designed for 3 year olds with math degrees. >Most people find sections of the APG that are deficient. The IPG is >somewhat less so, but still problematic. I'm biased re: the Liber >Reliquarum, but I really don't see it being among the Bottom 3 IN >supplements. I wasn't saying all three supplements suck my friend. The Liber Reliquarium was filled to the rim with funny artifacts though very few aside from the grail that I would build a campaign about. The fact I mentioned those three is because I own all three and thought they could be better. What are your bottom three? >These are very much "The book has stuff someone else was interested in, >not stuff *I* was interested in" complaints. Yes David and I being the customer the question becomes who exactly is right the developer or myself. The Angelic players guide I felt could have been done better and I was listing things that I felt have been "glossed over" painfully in In Nomine and that includes the psychology of celestials. My favorite section to this day remains the childbearing section and the Archanegl policies. >Again, a known issue. And again David, a Relevant one. The Sky is Up and frankly if people want to talk about journeying to the Moon it's important that one bring up they should aim it not at the earth. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:12:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> The Nine Thesis On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Charles Phipps wrote: > >This has been a known issue since shortly after it came out. > > That's because it's true and people have higher than average perception > scores David. The point is that the conversation was drifting to what was a > problem with In Nomine selling and I wanted to give a few good reasons. And that one has definitely been addressed, you know. Beth has made it clear that a second edition of In Nomine will feature, if nothing else, VASTLY revised organization to clear things up. > Gurps: In Nomine is a wonderful supplement and I hope it's selling well for > Steve Jackson games but I'm a glutton for punishment. Like Vampire fans the > problem is that while the Vamprie system may suck all the supplementary > information is in the old format. For what it's worth, I *like* the d666 system. It works very well for the game, allowing all levels a chance at spectacular success or failure. I like GURPS better, but for In Nomine, the d666 is perfect, IMO. > In Nomine as the game for mature minds might due better than a system that > sometimes seems designed for 3 year olds with math degrees. This last metaphor completely missed me... 3-year olds with math degrees? > I wasn't saying all three supplements suck my friend. The Liber Reliquarium > was filled to the rim with funny artifacts though very few aside from the > grail that I would build a campaign about. The fact I mentioned those three > is because I own all three and thought they could be better. The LR wasn't designed to have campaigns built around it. It was a book of nifty artifacts, along with some extra rules for making 'em. It never intended to be more. > What are your bottom three? Mine are Revelations II, V, and IV, in that order. > >These are very much "The book has stuff someone else was interested in, > >not stuff *I* was interested in" complaints. > > Yes David and I being the customer the question becomes who exactly is right > the developer or myself. No, Charles. The question becomes who is right... YOU or the OTHER customers. I disagreed with all of your complaints about those three books, for example. I found all the stuff interesting that you didn't. This has nothign to do with the developer. It has to do with the customers. And it doesn't come down to "Who's right, you or me?"... it comes down to "Do I represent the majority of IN players, or do you?" That's the question of the day. > The Angelic players guide I felt could have been > done better and I was listing things that I felt have been "glossed over" > painfully in In Nomine and that includes the psychology of celestials. The APG was weak. The IPG, which was released later, was much stronger. > >Again, a known issue. > > And again David, a Relevant one. The Sky is Up and frankly if people want to > talk about journeying to the Moon it's important that one bring up they > should aim it not at the earth. David was acknowledging that that issue has been conceded, and is ALREADY on the chopping block, Charles. He was trying to spare you wasting your time by filibustering about them pointlessly. In other words. "You're right, and that's already up for fixing. So let's skip past it." And I can't help but wonder why you capitalized Sky, Up, and Moon, but not Earth... unless earth was being used in the sense of generic dirt... sorry, but these are the kind of things I wonder about when I'm sleep deprived.... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Ninety-nine percent of life is what you make of it, so if your life sucks, you suck." -- Mike Muir ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:28:13 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line From: "Charles Phipps" > > 1. The Rulebook I agree with you on the main book needing to be organised better. That being said, allow me to address some of your other points from my own POV... > However the actual rules... > > I STILL HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT Each of the skills lists one (or sometimes two) attributes that they combine with to give you the target number (hereafter abbreviated as TN) that you roll against. It's similar to the way that White Wolf games have attribute and ability totals as their dice pools. Let's take Driving as an example. Joe, Fearless Vampire Hunter has Dexterity 3 and Drive 2, giving him 5 dice to roll when driving. Joeiel, Malakite of the Sword (whose Oaths include "I will destroy all vampires I can find,") has Agility 6 and Driving 3, giving him a TN of 9 when driving (I'll go into more detail about TNs later.) > Well frankly they were nice but are these all the songs, what ARE songs, and > do all superiors and sides possess the same? Songs function much the same way that Disciplines work in Vampire games, insofar as each one allows those that know it to perform some sort of supernatural stunt. With a few execptions, each song is divided among the three layers of In Nomine reality (Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial,) and you add the appropriate Force type to the level of the song to get the TN. Joeiel has 4 Corporeal forces, and knows the Corporeal song of Healing at level 4. When using Corporeal Healing, Joeiel's TN is 8 (those of you who guessed, based on the "driving" example, that Joeiel has practiced driving more than healing may well be right.) > The 3 1d6 is cute because it's 666 but it is not simpler its' confusing as > hell! Not to me, at least. You take 2d6 of one color, and 1d6 of another color. When checking to see whether your character succeeds, you roll all 3 dice, and if the 2d6 of one color are equal to or less than your TN, you succeed. If not, you fail. The remaining 1d6 (called the "check die,") determines the degree of success or failure. In combat, the power of your character's weapon is added to the check die is the amount of damage done. > The relationship between gaining skills, awards and experience points, etc > all have been outlined in the Gamemaster's handbook but that information > should have been given out in the main supplement! It's in the main book, although the layout problems may have caused you to miss it. Don't have my copy handy, so I can't say exactly what page it's on. > 3:) Index card sized character sheets Agreed on this not being a good thing, but the downloadable sheets that SJG posted are almost perfect. :) > Dominic it turns out is GASP an okay cool guy but a hardass (What his > writeup says he is), I loved the way they played up Dominic's ongoing crisis of faith - it turned him from my least-favorite archangel into one of my most favorites. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:38:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: I like the idea of bulletins - it's interesting, apropos and topical, but I really have to comment on this one - > Belial and Saminga continued internecine >fighting in Hell over who shall assign the Seneschal >for the forked Tether at the WTC. _Demonic_ Tether? Not in _my_ home universe, thank you very much. Moe "Although Thornlord's works very nicely for a Dark Campaign, I must say" Lane Belial should have been happy. It was *just* like Sheol, down to the breeze. As he inhaled, he could feel the robust tang of carbon monoxide, the sultry warmth of burning hydrocarbons .... and even a faint teasing hint of asbestos, dark and rich and lingering on the tongue. There was smoke everywhere, coyly framing the lascivious flames that caressed the rubble. It was _good_ rubble, too. So much like home ... but not quite. *Where was the Tether?* Belial had /felt/ the link spark into life, broadcasting the appearance of yet another fragment of Hell on Earth, and had eagerly jumped up to stabilize it ... but he had been temporarily distracted by yet another - oh, wonderful day! - fireball to the south of whatever human nation he was in today. Of course, he had to go see that one, too. No Tether there, but it was nice and toasty while it lasted. But when he went back north, the spark was gone ... and Belial couldn't figure out why. If anything, it should have been stronger: the Prince of Infernal Fire had arrived just in time to see all those firemen be buried under hundred of stories of burning wreckage. That should have cemented things nicely - but Belial had been looking for 20 minutes, now, and nothing was happening. No, wait. There was a hum of power ... but it wasn't for his Word. The Prince of Infernal Fire stopped, shocked, as the connection went Up, rather than Down. "Surprised, traitor?" Belial turned as Laurence leaned tiredly against a soot-covered car, his fireman's jacket covered equally with mud, glass, burn marks and less savory substances. The Prince looked around quickly and snapped his fingers, thus silently commanding every mortal in the area currently leaning towards Hell to go elsewhere. Laurence snorted at the ostentatious display: his eyes narrowed for a moment as he relayed a similar suggestion to nearby mortals currently leaning towards Heaven. There were notably more of them. While weary, the Archangel's voice had a certain satisfaction as he continued, "Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm afraid that any potential link to Hell died twenty minutes ago. Of natural causes. If it makes you feel any better, Saminga never even got a nibble." "Natural causes? NATURAL CAUSES?" The Prince of Infernal Fire is not given towards phelgmatic behavior. "Impossible! Two planes! Two fireballs! Two buildings going down, down, down! Fires raging unchecked! People burning to death! All for my glory! Mine!" The Prince of Infernal Fire is also not given towards humility. Laurence shook his head as he removed his fire jacket and helmet. "Not this time, traitor. You got the chance for a Tether when those scum embraced their Fate ... and then you promptly lost it, thanks to the humans you so foolishly despise." The Archangel waved a hand. "They killed your Tether when these oh-so-cynical and uncaring humans stopped to unstinctingly help anyone who needed it. They killed it when they rushed in, heedless of their own safety, simply because someone *might* still need rescuing. They killed it at the price of their own lives when the towers finally collapsed on them. None of them regretted the trade, you see. I asked. "There were two acts of cowardice done here this morning - and several thousand acts of selfless bravery. That makes this place MINE, demon, and you have no place here." The Archangel of the Sword straightened, his apparent fatigue suddenly dropping from him like a cloak. His smile was serene as a sword appeared in his hand, its blade already covered with a thin film of frozen oxygen. "Which brings us to our next topic of discussion. Feel free to stay as long as you like: frankly, I need the exercise..." ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 07/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 05:57:41 GMT From: ben@zianet.com Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) You're a good man, Moe Lane. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:05:54 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) >From: Maurice Lane >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:38:13 -0700 (PDT) > >--- "William J. Keith" wrote: > >I like the idea of bulletins - it's interesting, >apropos and topical, but I really have to comment on >this one - > > > > Belial and Saminga continued internecine >fighting >in Hell over who shall assign the Seneschal >for the >forked Tether at the WTC. > >_Demonic_ Tether? > >Not in _my_ home universe, thank you very much. > Nice writeup, but I'm sorry. I don't buy it. Whatever happens now, when anyone thinks of the WTC, they will remember the heartstopping shock and disbelief they felt when they first saw the newsclip about it being destroyed. People *all around the world* felt that. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:47:58 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) From: "Jo Hart" > > Nice writeup, but I'm sorry. I don't buy it. Whatever happens now, when > anyone thinks of the WTC, they will remember the heartstopping shock and > disbelief they felt when they first saw the newsclip about it being > destroyed. People *all around the world* felt that. I'd have it be contested between Beleth and Novalis, personally. Yes, we all felt shock and horror at the attack itself, but the international shows of solidarity makes Flowers a contender for it in my book. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:54:01 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Ok Righty Ho Hullo again folks, i just finished setting up some groups in Yahoo for In Nomine. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inmundi This one is for current day In Nomine settings, so place whatever info you want here that is pertinant to Modernday Settings. If folks want to focus on just one AA or DP or Ethereal then fine, just come along and lay claims to it, that way we can all benefit from the other folks ideas. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semperin This group is for various defining ages in history. Age 1: PRE AD (ie BC) Age 2: The times of the Christ Age 3: 00 AD-500AD Age 4: 500AD-1000AD Age 5: 1000AD-1500AD Age 6: 1500AD-1800AD Age 7: Victorian Era Age 8: WW1 Age 9: Gangster America Age 10: WW2 Age 11: From the 40's til present day Like before, if folks want to focus on just one AA, DP or Ethereal then fine, just come along and post what you want. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas And finally, a group for all those little rumours about the AA's, DP's or Other stuff. It can be used for plot hooks or just a laugh. Posting this message might be a breach of the list rules, and i will fully accept the responsibility for posting this message, but in light of recent topics i think that we all need some where to post what we want and not worry about file size or time restrictions or offending other folks. These lists are open to everybody, lurkers or pro's. Finally if certain folks join i will more than likely make them moderators on the list and thus keep flaming to a min. And yes there will be some list rules, but they are not typed up yet, nothing to bad, just the usual, no flaming, play nice and remember to bite the heads off of jelly babies as they taste better that way, those kinds of rules. If things go well in the lists the i will expand them so the time lines have a list each and so forth. Toodles Cas *where you come from is gone, where you're going was never there, and where you are aint no good unless you can get away from it* http://communities.msn.co.uk/ADD http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inmundi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semperin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:04:01 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Ok Righty Ho oh and lets not forget... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infabula Stories and fanfic and so forth. ;o) Toodles Cas *where you come from is gone, where you're going was never there, and where you are aint no good unless you can get away from it* http://communities.msn.co.uk/ADD http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:37:40 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line >Sorry not to flood the list with a whole lot of posts and instead with one >large post than no one will really bother to read. :-) Ok, after having read this ;-) > > > I feel has failed its audience and > > >consumers in one greatly tragic way : lack of a game > > >world that's developing, changing, and growing. > >Moe : > > Nice sentiment: only thing is, who takes it on the > > chin? > > All of this is all very well, of course, except that > > choosing one world, one setting, one paradigm (can you > > tell that I bought another Mage product?) will > > eliminate the others. Nature of the beast, and all > > that. That means that a large portion of your > > existing fan base is now sucking air, /no matter which > > category you pick/**. Not good for short term sales - > > especially since you lose the associated writers, too. I'm not convinced you would lose the writers. It may well be that you would lose some, but for every writer that feels he or she cannot or does not want to do xxx you will almost certainly get others who will make formal submissions. >While I do agree with you, I'm playing Elohite here, an Elohite who's main >concern is the financial survival of a game line. What you are actualy asking for is a rewrite of the whole game as a starting point or at the very least the core book. There are numerous variables within In Nomine. Brightness and Contrast to name two of them. On top of this is the whole free will isssue, which IMHO has been handled badly to date, and the various posible reasons behind certain events. For example I could think 'in game' of various possibly reasons for a terrorist attack on a major financial centre and not all of them originate in Hell. As a result In Nomine ends up as a game which on the surface appears confused and confusing. >WoD states over and over again that the players and Storytellers are more >than welcome to change whatever rules they want and change the setting in >whatever way they want, yet they maintain a general official feel for >their games, they maintain growing official game worlds, and you know what >? I -think- their sales are better than ours. World of Darkness has fixed concepts at it's core unlike those in In Nomine which are variable and dependant on interpretation. Once you have these fixed concepts it is far easier to move into creating game worlds. From my experience you are probably right, most players do prefer to be fed candy and White Wolf are very good at providing the candy. Another advantage of World of Darkness is that the characters are (or at the very least were) human. They have a human mindset for the player to fall back on, past experiences and belief systems. In Nomine Celestials are not human and yet to play them it is almost inevitable they will take on human characteristics. They start to gain free will purely because they are being played by humans, and of course as soon as an angel starts doing this it is in danger. IMHO the whole free will thing needs a rethink, as does other areas of why celestials are in part 'just like us' and in part utterly alien. This needs to be made more accessible to roleplaying especially in the concept of a long term game. >There are lots of people out there who prefer to play the games they want >to. They're going to do that whether or not there's an official setting. >But there are more people out there who are more comfortable with an >official setting, and even more who are buying WW's books if only to see >what cool new stuff is happening in the WoD universe. I accept this point. I must admit I do at times get annoyed at White Wolf, not all their books are up to scratch, too many feel rushed and incomplete and IMHO are put out purely for the collector mindset. OTOH it is also the way to ensure the continuation of a line. >Cas : > >Why dont we just base it on the real world? > >Well, we do but we have no feedback from SJG about how the AA's and DP's >and > >others are represented in this world. > >I think that this is an excellent idea, if only judging from the GMGpp92-94, >where there is some clear interplay between real world events and Celestial >politics, Christopher and the Children's Crusade, Laurence and the >Reformation, Eli and Zoroaster . . . if IN can have a canon past rooted in >real world events, why not a present and future ? Once you do this you start to create what will in reality be an alternative world for a secret war, a world were powerful beings struggle for power and domination unknown to the masses of humanity. Its already been done, it's called World of Darkness, it's huge. In Nomine would always be playing catch up, it would inevitably be compared and found wanting. >Omentide : > >The problem with adding colour and background is that it can become > >restrictive. As stated elsewhere the more background material produced the > >more the game world can become set in stone. This could well drive away > >just as many players as it brings in. > >Except that . . . those who wish to change a game world will, with or >without a "set/canon" setting. True. >Establishing a canon game world with canon events and canon secret >socieities opens up the game line to those who enjoy reading about the >developments in the game world. Most of my friends who are WoD fan *never >actually play* with the books they buy. They buy the books because >they're fun to read, and they're fun to read because stuff happens in >them, and because of the "authority" that a canon game world lends to such >stuff, it becomes important, and the reader can feel like they're privy to >something special. WW cashes in on that. WW cynically cashes in on the collector mentality and rewrites which mean my older versions of stuff cannot be used in a cononical game. I have to go out and buy new stuff, it's annoying, but as stated it does ensure the continualtion of the line, or at least for as long as people keep buying their material. However you are probably right that In Nomine does suffer for the lack of a canonical and supported game world. The issue is how to do this and that assumes Steve Jackson Games actually wants to take on such a large project. Right now I am far from convinced SJG does want to do this or that there is a sufficiently large fan base to make it worthwhile. The easiest way may be to go along the Cabal concept. Secret societies that operate on the Corporeal and perpetuate te war and strggle for human souls. and not actually touch the real world at all other than by stating these societies havwe influence in high places and listing their potential areas of interest. >Michael Walton : > > Actually, yes. WW, TSR and the makers of INS/MV have all > >presented set storylines and game worlds with the > >disclaimer that the GM is free to change them. This works. WW and TSR/WotC/Hasbro including the RPGA have also had their problems. WW struggles with the Cam and maintaining global consistency. Living City drowned under its own weight of generated matering, Living Greyhawk will probably do the same. The set game worlds in AD&D although colourful are not that good, they are riddled with inconsistencies and just about every religion falls over as soon as it is pushed or examined. WW took the real world, developed and expanded it, this instantly produces a great deal of background material which they do not have to detail. WW got it right here, and is a big reason for their success. >I don't even have to give up my vision, since I create my vision of a game >world with or without the permission of the producers of the game. > > >I, for one, would be more than willing to see canon > >take a 90 degree turn from my interpretation. After all, I > >can only buy future supplements if the line is still alive. > > And I can always change things to however I want them to > >be in my campaign. > >Agreed. Me too. But the issue is how. The starting point needs to be how celestials interact with the real world and each other. IMHO this needs examining carefully and a solid rethink. All the stuff in Superiors can be left as is, most Celestials never go to the Corporeal, it would be easy enough to assume those that do receive special training and as a result are not quite like those who do not. Unless you want a combat game (and I don't) the contrast needs to be turned down. If you want politics and Live Action Games the same is true. > >Metaplots are a problem. Some people really like them, some people > >really don't. I can't really judge from the web press (places like > >RPG.net) whether gamers in general like them, because sites like that > >really aren't representative. Metaplots may or may not sell well, but > >they certainly generate a lot of ill-will in some circles. > >This is true to a certain extentm I know that many Ravnos and Tremere fans >are pissed that their favorite clans gots messed up recently in the >official WoD universe, but (a) GMs can do whatever they want and (b) games >that take place in a single game world and have a continuing official plot >line are evidenced to sell better, bottom line. I also note that the >members of those circles in which there is still ill-will, they're still >buying the products, to see what happens next. Bottom line here. This is VtM, Ultimately VtM belongs in LARP where the Vamps can plot and intrigue to the hearts content, rather than around a table and the endless plethora of secret messages and actions which pull the ST away from any maintaining any sense of group play. If I want to play in the Cam I have to get the updated books, because by concept I can walk into any game anywhere in the world. Consistency has to be maintained for this. Ultimately I too want to see In Nomine survive and develop. I think there is a great deal within the game which is original and good. I'm of the opinion certain parts of the core book need a rethink and rewrite before any sort of canonical world (or world background) can be introduced. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:16:22 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line >Let's take Driving as an example. > >Joe, Fearless Vampire Hunter has Dexterity 3 and Drive 2, giving him 5 dice >to roll when driving. > >Joeiel, Malakite of the Sword (whose Oaths include "I will destroy all >vampires I can find,") has Agility 6 and Driving 3, giving him a TN of 9 >when driving (I'll go into more detail about TNs later.) So he has to roll a 9 or less with two dice and the CD indicates the level of success or failure. This works great. It's simple. Now take a human with an agility of 2 and driving 3. The chance of success is greatly reduced despite the fact that humans are likely to be far more familiar with driving than most celestial beings. The mechanics do not work very well with humans. The fact that skills etc are based on number of forces does not help. IMHO humans should be far more skilled at dealing with the Corporeal realm that Celestials, not less. There are various fixes for this but none seem to really work as they should. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:56:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) - --- Jo Hart wrote: > > > > >From: Maurice Lane > >Not in _my_ home universe, thank you very much. > > > > Nice writeup, Thanks. > but I'm sorry. I don't buy it. > Whatever happens now, when > anyone thinks of the WTC, they will remember the > heartstopping shock and > disbelief they felt when they first saw the newsclip > about it being > destroyed. People *all around the world* felt that. A good point... hmm. Now that I think of it, the most likely result of something like this could quite possibly be no Tether at all. Here's my thought. Tethers are caused by watershed events and how humans to react to them, right? Sort of like a Symphonic cliche. What happens when over a billion people (I have no idea how many tuned into the WTC) are all providing that all-important first reaction? After all, every single one of those people walked away with a different _conclusion_ about what the event meant, ranging from despair at the world to raging jubilation*. I suspect that this lack of consensus would doom any Tether. I _still_ like the image of Laurence as a fireman, though. It just /sounds/ right. :) Moe *I know that the anonymous heroism of thousands and thousands of my countrymen was what I took as the lesson that day, once I got through the first shock. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 07/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:49:58 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) >From: Maurice Lane >After all, every single one of those people >walked away with a different _conclusion_ about what >the event meant, ranging from despair at the world to >raging jubilation*. I suspect that this lack of >consensus would doom any Tether. I'd be inclined to say Belial. It's not forked. Everyone had a moment of indrawn breath at the *destruction*, and then they reacted or drew conclusions. At least, that's my guess. > >I _still_ like the image of Laurence as a fireman, >though. It just /sounds/ right. :) > Sure. I'd think ground zero of a disaster relief effort would also be a good place for angels to recruit soldiers (although one would probably need to be an Elohite to actually chase up disasters just for this reason). And any heroic mortals who died before their time might be potential hosts for Kyrios of Laurence -- if they make especially unlikely recoveries ... jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2379 ********************************