in_nomine-digest Wednesday, September 19 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2382 In this digest: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) IN> The unluckiest Malakim of all time IN> The unluckiest Malakim of all time Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> News - In Nomified Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN>Impudites and Violent Words Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> What if Uriel wore a dress, had poppies in her hair, and a magic wand? Re: IN> IN Game Line - Rev Cycle stuff IN> Opinions are like navels Re: IN> I'm a fair man, I like to think. Re: IN> Opinions are like navels Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> The Nine Theses/Game Line stuff Re: IN> IN Game Line - Rev Cycle stuff Re: IN> Opinions are like navels Re: IN> News - In Nomified Re: IN> The unluckiest Malakim of all time Re: IN> Opinions are like navels Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) IN> Faith, Fanaticism and the double barrel shotgun.. Re: IN> Opinions are like navels IN> Murmurs in the grove Re: IN> Faith, Fanaticism and the double barrel shotgun.. IN> So, WHY did the Revelations Cycle suck? (was re: Game Line) Re: IN> Faith, Fanaticism and the double barrel shotgun.. Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> Murmurs in the grove ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:01:33 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) From: "Rolland Therrien" > > No, I'd say Stone earns the spot: And in your games, that is what matters. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:57:53 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The unluckiest Malakim of all time Zucckar Outcast Malakim Demon(?!) of Hunting Demons Cor-3 Str-6 Agi-6 Eth-3 Int-1 Pre-11 Cel-3 Will-6 Per-6 Vessel: Human 2/ Skills: Dodge 2/, Fighting 2/, Throwing 1/ Songs: Dreams (Corporeal 6/, Celestial 6/), Charm (Celestial 3/) Attunements: Malakim of Dreams, Dreamwalking, Demon of Hunting Demons Zucckar can track down the nearest demonic presence towards him Zucckar can also with a sucessful willpower roll blow a demon to kingdom come Special Rites: * Kill a Demon (+5 Essence!!!) Word Forces: 21(!!!) Dissonance: Varies TREMENDOUSLY Oaths: Currently about 27 including (Never chew a stick of gum, Never dance the tango, Never buy anything pokemon related....) Discord: Obsessed 4/, Bezerker (Demons) 2/, Stigmata 1/, Nervous Twitch (Dancing foot) 1/ Sometimes Lucifer just really wants to mess someone over and when that happens you just better pray to God your not the unlucky low level servitor that attracts his attention. Zucckar (don't pronounce it the way it looks) was a newly fledged Malakim who was immensley proud of his physical prowess in the service of Dreams and anxious to take his work to the corporeal plane. He boasted rather foolishly that he wasn't afraid of any demon whatsoever and if the Devil himself popped in front of him that he would honor his oaths to suffer not an evil to live and try to destroy him, confident that God was on his side to see him to oblivion if nothing else. Well Lucifer was bored that day so during one of his boasts he popped in and said he'd like to test out that theory. Zuccar a dumb angel agreed and promptly beat the crud out of Lucifer as Lucifer explained that God had stript him of his forces and he was in fact actually the weakest demon in all of Hell and God had given him the power to grant words in order to keep all the demons unorganized and in pain..or something like that. Zuccar of course being led by the Liar Prince to this exact exchange then said.. "Ha if you had that sort of power you could grant me _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:04:21 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The unluckiest Malakim of all time Zucckar Outcast Malakim Demon(?!) of Hunting Demons Cor-3 Str-6 Agi-6 Eth-3 Int-1 Pre-11 Cel-3 Will-6 Per-6 Vessel: Human 2/ Skills: Dodge 2/, Fighting 2/, Throwing 1/ Songs: Dreams (Corporeal 6/, Celestial 6/), Charm (Celestial 3/) Attunements: Malakim of Dreams, Dreamwalking, Demon of Hunting Demons Zucckar can track down the nearest demonic presence towards him Zucckar can also with a sucessful willpower roll and 5 points of essence blow any demon to kingdom come Special Rites: * Kill a Demon (+5 Essence!!!) Word Forces: 21(!!!) Dissonance: Varies TREMENDOUSLY Oaths: Currently about 27 including (Never chew a stick of gum, Never dance the tango, Never buy anything pokemon related....) Discord: Obsessed 4/, Bezerker (Demons) 2/, Stigmata 1/, Nervous Twitch (Dancing foot) 1/, Celestial Turettes syndrome (Bible Quotes) 3/ Sometimes Lucifer just really wants to mess someone over and when that happens you just better pray to God your not the unlucky low level servitor that attracts his attention. Zucckar (don't pronounce it the way it looks) was a newly fledged Malakim who was immensley proud of his physical prowess in the service of Dreams and anxious to take his work to the corporeal plane. He boasted rather foolishly that he wasn't afraid of any demon whatsoever and if the Devil himself popped in front of him that he would honor his oaths to suffer not an evil to live and try to destroy him, confident that God was on his side to see him to oblivion if nothing else. Well Lucifer was bored that day so during one of his boasts he popped in and said he'd like to test out that theory. Zuccar a dumb angel agreed and promptly beat the crud out of Lucifer as Lucifer explained that God had stript him of his forces and he was in fact actually the weakest demon in all of Hell and God had given him the power to grant words in order to keep all the demons unorganized and in pain..or something like that. Zuccar of course being led by the Liar Prince to this exact exchange then said.. "Ha if you had that sort of power you could grant me the power to kill all the demons of Hell!" "Would you want that sort of power?" Lucifer asked politely. "Yes!" Zuccar said. "Then you are now the Demon of Hunting Demons." Lucifer popped the word onto the angel who promptly felt the MASSIVE dissonance banging against his skull. Now you can imagine what Zucckar who is more embarassed that his fellow Malakim will SEE him like this than honestly ashamed about what he's become went to do....he's now hunting demons the world over in the decision to put himself to use before his head explodes with the fact by his standards he's an evil and he's suffering himself to live. Lucifer of course has gone back to watching the tely in the Lower Hells while the Demon Princes are wondering what the hell is up with the twitching foot Malakim with the perpetually bloody nose walking into tethers and blowing everything to hell. Eventually of course Zucckar will descend into a steaming pile of dissonance and discord (probably in a few days unless Zuccar figures out he should head to Hell to work off this dissoannce) or the first Malakim which resonates this guy will wipe this splotch off their honor. But by then Lucifer's damage will have been done. Really, don't catch Satan when he's bored. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:29:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) - --- Rolland Therrien wrote: > To be honest, the calls for peace aren't the vast > majority of > American's opinions. The average American feels angry > and hurt, and is now ready to defend itself. Most definitely. As an American, I don't want peace right now. I want to see serious butt kicked. The one real argument against Stone is the widespread willingness to hit first that so many of us currently have. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:06:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> News - In Nomified I found the In Nomified news bulletin entertaining, in its dramatic way. For more ordinary and local news, I expect it could often be funny. Local celestial news somehow makes me think of Garrison Kellior's weekly bulletins from Lake Wobegon, Minn., though I suppose a somewhat larger setting -- celestial activity in Seattle or St. Louis or wherever-- would have more potential. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:14:54 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Prodigal wrote: > > Er... You mean David, right? > > Not in this case. With the calls for trying to find a peaceful resolution to> the situation, the leading chrub of the peace faction strikes me as a more> natural candidate than a member of the war faction. The calls for a "peaceful" resolution are few and far between. The international show of solidarity is very definitely oriented more towards uniting to strike back and destroy the aggressors, which is much more David. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:34:34 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN>Impudites and Violent Words Wow Charlemagne. That was really good. It gave me a nice handle on Imudites under the various DPs. So entertaining and useful all rolled into one. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2001 11:10:11 -0400 From: "Matthew B. Gerber" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) On Wed, 2001-09-19 at 09:29, Michael Walton wrote: > Most definitely. As an American, I don't want peace > right now. I want to see serious butt kicked. The one > real argument against Stone is the widespread willingness > to hit first that so many of us currently have. Somehow, I get a feeling that David would count what happened Tuesday as a provoking attack. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:22:42 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) >Somehow, I get a feeling that David would count what happened Tuesday >as a >provoking attack. >Matt Speaking of which, what are the relations between David and Khalid? i know that faith keeps folks close together but it also drives them apart and seeing as david really dislikes the whole groups going againts groups thing, it is in his word, does it affect so much as to make his reactions to khalid cool at best? Toodles Cas *where you come from is gone, where you're going was never there, and where you are aint no good unless you can get away from it* In Nomine groups http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inmundi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semperin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infabula AD&D groups http://communities.msn.co.uk/ADD http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:23:19 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> What if Uriel wore a dress, had poppies in her hair, and a magic wand? That was wonderful! What a change and a good way to start to make peace between the ethereals and the host. I hope you get enough feedback for to write up more. This is definitely a keeper and I am looking forward to introducing her into the game. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:43:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line - Rev Cycle stuff At 5:43 PM -0700 9/17/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Jason McBrayer : >>Except that this was tried with In Nomine from the beginning, with the >>Revelations Cycle. It didn't work very well, but the books did have >>other problems. > >I should point out the Elizabeth wasn't there to curb that author's attempts >(correct me if I'm wrong, but I tihnk there was a baby in there somewhere), Actually, I wasn't the Line Editor at the time that the Rev Cycle was proposed, accepted, and plotted out. I saw the outlines after the fact, and I gained the prickly throne around the time the FotM manuscript was finalized, IIRC. By that time, there was too much development in the plotline for me to be doing much, and I was too new to the post to really understand: A - what might help things, B - how much authority I had to change things (I still am not sure of B, at that time!), or C - how to get the whipstrokes _just_ right on the authors... The previous Line Editor was a much better priest and person than a Line Editor, I feel, for various reasons. (And poor Scott was too over- worked to compensate for that lack.) This meant that authors in general were basically running free, without guidance. That caused one interesting (but _so_ _NOT_ In Nomine-style) draft to have to be rejected entirely, when some well-placed guidance might have saved it. >I think that Historical IN is the BEST way for the producers of the IN line >to go if they're unwilling to define set game world events. It would also be, potentially, a good way to _practice_. With real-life events that are already 'set in stone,' figuring out Superior and other non-human reactions to things is much easier than worrying about, say, Armegeddon... Not to mention that there _is_ rather a wealth of GURPS books to draw from if necessary. Truth is, if the 32-pagers did well enough, _those_ might be the way to go on such things. Have the "static" stuff in regular books, and the changing material in them? But I speculate, without my LE hat on. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:04:46 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Opinions are like navels So here's mine. 1. I like In Nomine the way it is, with the following exceptions: the main rule book needs reorganization; the disturbance rules need clarification; some of the characteristics need more clarification on how to play them (Strength and Agility, for example); and the Revelations Cycle belongs in a landfill somewhere. 2. I've resigned myself to In Nomine: Anime on the grounds that at least they're publishing *something.* And I happily await the Ethereal Player's Guide. But *please* finish the Superiors series -- it's easily my favorite of what's gone before. As to what comes in the future, may I add my vote for In Nomine Dark Ages? 3. I'd also like to cast my vote *against* any messing with the carefully neutral tone In Nomine takes in the matter of real-world religions. I belong to a real-world religion and I don't find (much) that In Nomine as it is written is unfair or offensive. I have seen some posts (mostly on the Pyramid list) claiming that In Nomine is slighting this or that religion, but what these posters actually seem to want is a rewrite that *favors* their religion. Leave it alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Janet Anderson * * * * Beware the anger of a patient bard. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:18:05 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> I'm a fair man, I like to think. Very inventive and useful. In general most relics don't come up in a game, but this one definitely has possibilities. It seems like it could even be used to 'save' someone from impending disaster if they were at ground zero of something they couldn't survive. Just 'zap' them into Limbo. Though I might be misinterpreting this use of the cannon. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:36 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Opinions are like navels In article , dorigen@hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) wrote: I can but agree with all that you say. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:21:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line At 9:46 PM -0400 9/17/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >1. The Rulebook >The In Nomine main sourcebook is the most horrofically organized thing I've It's been on my list to re-organize that when a second _edition_ is printed for, oh, lessee, how long have I been LE? I've made two trial-run practice attempts to see how they work. One of them is GURPS IN, which I call "organization edition 1.5." Another pertains to some vaporware that I've been working on, which has its own organization. Heck, I _tell_ people, "Okay, here's how to read the book, and note that the Song rules are in two separate places," when I pitch things. So shocking? No shock here. The organization is wretched. I don't know what the editors were on, let alone Derek, when they organized it. I wish they'd give me some, though -- it looks like it was fun. O:> >(Yes I've been playing and writing for this list for years and I still can't >explain to you in a hundred words or less how to make a beginning character >and what skills equal what) I bet I can... >Yeah great giving us Compas of Attunement, Fiery Sword, etc and not saying >what power level they are! You buy them at 3 points per level. The effects are level-based, IIRC, and you may not have them at the same level as the other guy. >Well frankly they were nice but are these all the songs, what ARE songs, and >do all superiors and sides possess the same? p. 78, the first sentence beneath the SONGS header, explains that both sides know these Songs. p. 46, first paragraph under SONGS header, explains what Songs are. Between the explanations on those two pages (yes, I _know_ they're separated by over 30 pages; yes, I _know_ that's daft), and the Song descriptions themselves, it's pretty clear -- at least, to me -- that Songs are what other games would call spells. Does that help? >3:) Index card sized character sheets The character sheets in the main book are rather unhelpful; I like my own Excel character sheets better. (I have a feeling that they're a design from a previous draft where skills were somehow based on Forces instead of characteristics.) There are some nice PDF ones at the INC, though, IIRC. >4:) Awful Sourcebooks I believe I've said, before, that the APG was done without much input from me as LE. The IPG is, however, much better. I didn't think it was nothing but rehash. I suppose people's tastes differ. O:/ >6:) The Revelations Cycle > >I love these books, I honestly do. My only problem is that they read like a >gaming magazine rather than a adventure and occasionally they didn't make >sense...also with the Superior guides the "fleshings" out of the Superiors >were the biggest wastes of space I've ever seen. Do remember that the Rev Cycle came BEFORE the Superior writeups. The "10 page expansion per major Superior" format was the original one, which people said wasn't _enough_. It had interesting things about the Superiors, and some nice new attunements, but little information on how a Servitor of that Superior would be likely to act; little on what the Word-culture was, etc. Thus, the Superior books. Minor Superiors typically get less space than majors (Khalid being an exception, but he needed the extra space and it fit the theme better anyway). But the Superior books came _after_ the initial fleshing out of Superiors in the Rev Cycle. (Yes, Superiors 1 used Superiors which were already partly fleshed out. This was A: the way it just worked out for which authors wanted to write what, and B: a good time-saver for coming up to speed on what things needed to be in such books.) The rather... lackluster performance of the Revelations Cycle is also what slows down just about everything that _is_ what you seem to want. Was the failure of the Rev Cycle linked to... the disorganization? The _lack_ of tightly-linked adventures in each one? The fact that there were adventures at all? The size of them? The all-in-one packaging that they had? The metaplot? The fact that there was a metaplot at all? The holes the size of the Enterprise that you could poke in LA? Not enough Bright Lilim in spandex and leather? Not enough dark Lilim in latex and studs? All of those are things that have to be thought about, at least a little. And, since IN is not the bread-and-butter of SJGames that GURPS is (and cannot be; there are simply more GURPS Basic Sets out there, not to mention the cross-system purchases), when the gaming market gets tight and the books don't balance (see the Daily Illuminator archives), SJ needs to focus his attention on the bread-and-butter -- not the relish with the angel-feathers. The line is getting some support with In Nomine Anime and the EPG, but it's going to be slow and even implementing the changes that I _intend_ to make can't happen overnight. This is the publishing industry; "hurry up and wait" _applies_. (Took me a while to adapt to that, myself.) Heck, I've got a nigh-totally reworked APG 2nd edition in mind; but nothing can happen there till it sells out. >I once got an e-mail saying they'd never do anything on "deathbed >repentence" because it was too controversial. I doubt it was from me. I wouldn't do much with something like that because it's a fiddly bit, myself. Maybe whoever does Kronos would work in something about that, though, and whether it will allow someone to avoid fate (thus inspiring Fate Servitors to suddenly kill anyone who's reached fate, in the fastest way possible, so as to avoid such things). BTW: p. 202 (if my memory serves me) is where you want to look, for the basic Character Point Awards box. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:19:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Nine Theses/Game Line stuff At 5:11 PM -0400 9/18/01, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Now, if there were some way to set up a hack so that _only_ one address >could post to a yahoo group, and then set up an account somewhere that >forwarded to it, thus making an archive site... We're working on this idea right now. O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:50:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line - Rev Cycle stuff Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > The previous Line Editor was a much better priest and person than a > Line Editor, I feel, for various reasons. Actually, he was a very good Line Editor.....until he dropped off the face of the earth. - -David ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2001 13:51:56 -0400 From: "Matthew B. Gerber" Subject: Re: IN> Opinions are like navels On Wed, 2001-09-19 at 13:04, Janet Anderson wrote: > 3. I'd also like to cast my vote *against* any messing with the > carefully neutral tone In Nomine takes in the matter of real- > world religions. I belong to a real-world religion and I don't > find (much) that In Nomine as it is written is unfair or > offensive. I have seen some posts (mostly on the Pyramid list) > claiming that In Nomine is slighting this or that religion, but > what these posters actually seem to want is a rewrite that > *favors* their religion. Leave it alone. If it ain't broke, > don't fix it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'd like to second this. I'd even like to third and fourth it, if nobody minds me stepping on the rules of order a tad. SJG:IN manages to tread a very fine line very nicely. Other than being more or less monotheistic (and even that can be made debatable, with a bit of effort) it is entirely agnostic with respect to which religion is the true one. Yet it sets up a deep enough and well enough realized world that religious, philosophical, and other debates are doubly possible: by GMs importing content of real-world religions, and even without that, by differing points of view within what the game itself officially acknowledges. It's a remarkable dance of flexibility, contains some real examination of good and evil without proselytizing, and contains some healthy irreverence without being offensive to those who truly do hold to the faiths potentially implicated. (Well, except those who are perpetually offended. But no RPG worth the name is going to satisfy them.) This is the primary reason that I'm, personally, glad SJG:IN is *not* a direct translation of INS/MV: if it were, I simply wouldn't be interested. At all. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:11:07 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> News - In Nomified though I suppose a somewhat larger setting -- celestial activity in Seattle or St. Louis or wherever-- would have more potential. I also lean this way. Too local news and it loses meaning or impact. I do admit, I would like to see a global news report. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:02:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The unluckiest Malakim of all time That's a really dirty trick to play on a poor, innocent Malakite. Shame on you, Charles. };> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:20:17 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Opinions are like navels 3. I'd also like to cast my vote *against* any messing with the >carefully neutral tone In Nomine takes in the matter of real-world >religions. I belong to a real-world religion and I don't find (much) that >In Nomine as it is written is unfair or offensive. I have seen some posts >(mostly on the Pyramid list) claiming that In Nomine is slighting this or >that religion, but what these posters actually seem to want is a rewrite >that *favors* their religion. Leave it alone. If it ain't broke, don't >fix it. I agree with Janet. The only reason I am a late comer to IN is because I thought the game was another religeous-basher and so it was only recently when I gave it a chance and found it had a pretty decent treatment of religeons that I fell in love with the game. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:09:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) - --- cassandra benner wrote: > i know that faith keeps folks close together but it also > drives them apart Nope. Faith brings people together, _fanaticism_ drives them apart. IIRC, Fanaticism is a demonic Word. If not, it should be. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) - --- "Matthew B. Gerber" wrote: > Somehow, I get a feeling that David would count what > happened Tuesday as a provoking attack. Hey, if it avoids Dissonance, I'm all for it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:49:03 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Faith, Fanaticism and the double barrel shotgun.. >--- I said: > > i know that faith keeps folks close together but it also > > drives them apart Mr Walton Replied: Nope. Faith brings people together, _fanaticism_ drives >them apart. IIRC, Fanaticism is a demonic Word. If not, >it should be. And i reply... Ah but what about the crusades? Christians against the moores?, all the hatred in ireland between the two main christian groups. Ah yes we all call the middle east groups fanatics, but when we act the same way it is zeal and righteous. Hmm perhaps a fallen Elohite of Khalid, or perhaps a Shedite holds that word in the service of Malphas. Toodles Cas *where you come from is gone, where you're going was never there, and where you are aint no good unless you can get away from it* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inmundi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semperin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infabula _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:31:25 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Opinions are like navels At 1:51 PM -0400 9/19/01, Matthew B. Gerber wrote: >Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. > >I'd like to second this. I'd even like to third and fourth it, if >nobody minds me stepping on the rules of order a tad. > >SJG:IN manages to tread a very fine line very nicely. Other than being >more or less monotheistic (and even that can be made debatable, with a >bit of effort) "A bit?" Ask any Ethereal. Yahweh's just another Ethereal in the Pantheon. He just got massively jacked up. Or, alternately, consider the Yves/Gabriel/Metatron trinity. Or the thought that perhaps the Angels (and Demons) are in fact God-subdivided. >It's a remarkable dance of flexibility, contains some real examination >of good and evil without proselytizing, and contains some healthy >irreverence without being offensive to those who truly do hold to the >faiths potentially implicated. (Well, except those who are perpetually >offended. But no RPG worth the name is going to satisfy them.) Let me add in here that it allows Moe Lane to be happily weird or creepy without difficulty, and further allows me to write the kind of thing *I* write ('epic' seems to be what people ascribe to it), without either of us or any of the other dozens of writers who contribute to this list needing to Mod the background. And that I consider a very good thing. >This is the primary reason that I'm, personally, glad SJG:IN is *not* a >direct translation of INS/MV: if it were, I simply wouldn't be >interested. At all. INS/MV seems to be a truly great game. It's just a completely different one, and if it were directly translated, some of us would still be here, and others might come in, but the fanbase would significantly change. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Impudite of Secrets -- or Mercurian of Revelation (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:32:19 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Murmurs in the grove *in the grove, tents lay clustered about, from inside on of the tents 2 voices can be heard* 1: Are you sure? 2: yup, i got the orders about an hour ago 1: so they REALLY want to do a soldier Exchange 2: yup, i have to go to thor, and one of his gets to come here, i think theres about 50 of us all in all thats gonna do the cross training 1: Wow, so have you been told why you have to train with them? 2: nope, i reckon its cos they want us to learn new stuff to surprise the war tether we're gonna smash in a few weeks 1: well good luck. 2: yeah thanks cya in a few weeks 1: yup Thankyou for convincing me to send this in kish. ;o) Shall we see if it convinces folks to look in on the veritas group... Toodles Cas *where you come from is gone, where you're going was never there, and where you are aint no good unless you can get away from it* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inmundi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semperin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infabula _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:41:14 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Faith, Fanaticism and the double barrel shotgun.. cassandra benner wrote: > > >--- I said: > > > i know that faith keeps folks close together but it also > > > drives them apart > > Mr Walton Replied: Nope. Faith brings people together, _fanaticism_ drives > >them apart. IIRC, Fanaticism is a demonic Word. If not, > >it should be. > Hmm perhaps a fallen Elohite of Khalid, or perhaps a Shedite holds that word > in the service of Malphas. It's Khalid's Word if he Falls and becomes a Habbalite (in the Revelations Cycle). - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:42:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> So, WHY did the Revelations Cycle suck? (was re: Game Line) On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > The rather... lackluster performance of the Revelations Cycle is also > what slows down just about everything that _is_ what you seem to want. > Was the failure of the Rev Cycle linked to... the disorganization? The > _lack_ of tightly-linked adventures in each one? The fact that there > were adventures at all? The size of them? The all-in-one packaging that > they had? The metaplot? The fact that there was a metaplot at all? The > holes the size of the Enterprise that you could poke in LA? Not enough > Bright Lilim in spandex and leather? Not enough dark Lilim in latex and > studs? You know... this question is actually worth tossing around, methinks. If we can get a good enough idea of what truly caused the RC to be such crud, maybe we could figure out what NOT to do again. So, what made you guys hate the Revelations Cycle, and how could it have been 'fixed', if at all? Here's my views: The RC was not what it claimed to be, or aspired to be, in any way, shape, or form. It was supposed to be an overarcing metaplot/adventure/storyline, tied across all five books, culminating in Armageddon itself (possibly). What it WAS was five separate books, only TWO of which (the last two) were tied together in ANY way, each book packed with 2-4 completely different sections of 'stuff'. IOW, it was wishy-washy as all hell. IF it had honestly been a grand, sweeping adventure, tied across five different books, even with ONE additional dose of "stuff" in each (like the Superior writeups, or a setting writeup), I bet we'd all still be gazing in wonder at how well it all worked. Truth is, it was just a random collection of stuff, with no unified tone, style, feel, or even organization. Combine that with the fact that the final, "grand" adventure came in two parts: The plot-holes-you-could-ride-Haagenti-through part, and the hey-player-characters-why-don't-you-watch-all-this-happening part, and I think you have the two biggest reasons why the line sucked. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "People love to be told what to do. They love not doing what they've been told even more. They love it the most when they are made to do it anyway." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Faith, Fanaticism and the double barrel shotgun.. - --- cassandra benner wrote: > Ah but what about the crusades? ?? I don't recall saying that Muslims had a monopoly on fanaticism. That would be just as inappropriate as saying that Muslims had a monopoly on faith -- which attitude, IIRC, is what contributed to Khalid's near-Fall in the first place. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The next time someones says "Talk is cheap," remind them of how much Oprah Winfrey makes. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:28:55 GMT From: "prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) David Edelstein writes: > Prodigal wrote: >> > Er... You mean David, right? >> >> Not in this case. With the calls for trying to >> find a peaceful resolution to the situation, >> the leading chrub of the peace faction strikes >> me as a more natural candidate than a member >> of the war faction. > > > The calls for a "peaceful" resolution are few > and far between. But the fact that they are there is enough justification for me to have Novalis be the contender on Heaven's side, rather than David, in any game I run or setting material I write for my own use. Because that was what my participation in this thread involved: How I would run it in *MY* games. I have no objections to people having a different opinion, and using that as the basis for their own treatments of how things turn out. But when they tell me that my own opinion is invalid for games I run and that they aren't involved with (and while it may be due to a failing on my part, I see no other way that I can interpret someone telling me that I really meant David when I wrote Novalis otherwise,) it gets my hackles up. My choice of Novalis was a personal one, and never meant to be otherwise. This is why I made a point of mentioning that it was my personal take on things in the first message I posted about her contending with Beleth for the tether. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:13:21 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Murmurs in the grove I like the possibilities here. Do develope it please. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2382 ********************************