in_nomine-digest Thursday, September 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2383 In this digest: Re: IN> IN Game Line - Rev Cycle stuff Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> IN Game Line - Rev Cycle stuff Re: IN> Faith, Fanaticism and the double barrel shotgun.. IN> Disadvantage: Allergic Re: IN> Opinions are like navels IN> (Seed) Buoyancy IN> My problems with the Revelations Cycle IN> Iron Rev 4 Closed! Re: IN> My problems with the Revelations Cycle Re: IN> Opinions are like navels Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> Iron Rev 4 Closed! Re: IN> Iron Rev 4 Closed! Re: IN> The Nine Thesis Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) Re: IN> IN Game Line Re: IN> IN Game Line IN> Babel.. Re: IN> Murmurs in the grove ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:52:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line - Rev Cycle stuff At 12:50 PM -0500 9/19/01, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> The previous Line Editor was a much better priest and person than a >> Line Editor, I feel, for various reasons. > >Actually, he was a very good Line Editor.....until he dropped off the >face of the earth. I dunno -- I didn't interact much with him, and a _lot_ of silly little errors got into Night Music which I think he should have caught. (Considering how many _I_ caught when I did a pass on the IPG, I've come to believe that the LE _must_ do a quasi-copyedit pass on nigh everything.) Besides, dropping off the face of the earth isn't a very good thing, right? O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:02:49 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) prodigal wrote: > My choice of Novalis was a personal one, and never meant to be otherwise. > This is why I made a point of mentioning that it was my personal take on > things in the first message I posted about her contending with Beleth for > the tether. That's fine, and my personal take on it is that David makes much more sense, and Novalis makes very little sense. No one is telling you what you can or can't do in your campaign. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:10:45 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line - Rev Cycle stuff Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I dunno -- I didn't interact much with him, and a _lot_ of silly little > errors got into Night Music which I think he should have caught. > (Considering how many _I_ caught when I did a pass on the IPG, I've > come to believe that the LE _must_ do a quasi-copyedit pass on > nigh everything.) The tone of IN changed a great deal in the changeover from the period when Moriah/Derek Pearcy/SJ were the guiding hand behind IN, and when a bunch of newcomers (including you and me) came on board. It was losing that original tone and consistent vision which, IMO, caused IN's downward slide...that and the long period of no LE and a lack of direction. (The fact that two of the most brilliant original writers -- Derek Pearcy and S. John Ross -- were also two of the most obstinate personalities and unwilling to accept suggestions didn't help either.) > Besides, dropping off the face of the earth isn't a very good thing, > right? O:> No, it wasn't. To be frank, I blame Moriah for destroying the line more than I blame anyone else. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:57:38 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Faith, Fanaticism and the double barrel shotgun.. >Ah but what about the crusades? >Christians against the moores?, all the hatred in ireland between the two >main christian groups. >Ah yes we all call the middle east groups fanatics, but when we act the >same way it is zeal and righteous. Malphas does indeed have a great deal to answer for, and his side kick the Djinn of Revenge. Factions, obsessiveness and Revenge is a real nasty combination. Some day I will write up that Djinn for this list. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:10:13 +0800 From: "Manny Nepomuceno" Subject: IN> Disadvantage: Allergic For all those among us who find themselves sniffling for no reason we can fathom. ;) Manny Neps Disadvantage: Allergic The Symphony finds ways to fight back. Humans were meant to be more than celestial vessels, after all. This Disadvantage manifests in one human out of a thousand. At the moment of his possession, a human with this Disadvantage finds himself crippled by a bizarre coughing fit. Every hour, the human’s body attempts to expel the offending celestial - roll a Contest of Wills, but add the human’s Corporeal Forces to his Will roll. Until the celestial is expelled, or leaves of its own volition, the human is incapacitated with flu-like symptoms, unable to perform even the simplest of actions without extreme discomfort. Other psychosomatic symptoms surface while the human is possessed - tears flow, his nose runs, and (on occasion) ears bleed. Bizarre rashes and symptoms resembling asthma are also known to occur to humans suffering from this Disadvantage. Needless to say, Shedim hate encountering Allergic humans (Kyriotates are much more graceful about it). No possession, no corruption, after all. Despite various attempts (usually by Jean and Vapula, although other Superiors have tried), the exact nature and causes of the Allergy haven’t been pinned down, although rumor has it that Eli is capable of making a vessel with this Disadvantage. No one knows, of course, why the Archangel of Creation would want a vessel that rejects celestials, but then again, it’ s all just hearsay. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:12:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Opinions are like navels - --- Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 1:51 PM -0400 9/19/01, Matthew B. Gerber wrote: > Or, alternately, consider the Yves/Gabriel/Metatron > trinity. No, thank you: the Yves/Michael/Eli Trinity that one of my PCs is currently gibbering at* is quite evil** enough. Especially since the Eli part is apparently not dealing with apotheosis well... Moe *Well, as much as a Malakite Vassal of the Sword CAN gibbber, which is (now that I think of it) not much at all. :) **I mean 'evil' in a good way, you understand - although my character would probably vehemently disagree. Like I ever listened to one of _them_. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 07/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:15:54 +0800 From: "Manny Nepomuceno" Subject: IN> (Seed) Buoyancy This eats up my 10k allotment...of course, you folks _do_ know this is also on my Web site, right? ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools/ Seed: Buoyancy The image in the window took a long time to resolve itself, but when it did, there was no doubt about it - the being on the other end was Dominic himself. The cloaked and cowled Seraph was looking at the Webcam with two of his eyes, his other four focused elsewhere. It was noted that the Archangel of Judgment was not a touch-typist. "Report," he pecked out on the keyboard. Fortunately, Donovan was used to his Archangel's eccentricities. As an Ofanite, he was often accused of being eccentric himself. "Sixteen interviewed, Most Holy. Two with dissonance, but they're working it off at a Tether. Angels of the Sword." "Have they been dealt with?" Dominic asked. "Yes, Most Holy. They are being watched. And one of Eli's reports that he's seen him lately." "Eli? In San Francisco?" "Yes, Most Holy." "What was he doing?" "According to the angel of Creation, he was auditioning, sir." Dominic paused. "Auditioning?" Half an hour later, a triad of Judgment was dispatched from Heaven to San Francisco with newly-minted vessels and very, very detailed instructions. No Malakim were assigned to the triad, but all three of its members were grim - this was dangerous duty, and the most unpleasant kind. None of their fellows envied them their earthside assignment. Donovan met them at the nearest Tether. "Greetings, I am Donovan," he addressed the senior member of the Triad, a Seraph who had seen the fall of the Grigori. "Ack-sellent," replied another member of the Triad, stressing the first syllable. An Ofanite like himself, Donovan noted. The Seraph glared at him, but said nothing. "He's under orders not to talk unless he absolutely has to," the third member of the Triad offered. A Mercurian this time - clearly, this Triad didn't intend to get into any fights. "I see...were you briefed beforehand?" Donovan asked. "Thoroughly," the Mercurian replied, smiling. "Let's get to work." It's Heaven's worst nightmare. Eli, Archangel of Creation, has finally surfaced, and he's involved in one of Nybbas's biggest projects. This time around, he's a 19-year old boy named Kevin Neil Simons, and one of the five members of Buoyancy, the hottest new boy band to hit the charts since N'Sync. (Or Westlife. Or Plus One.) Two members of a Judgment triad are also in the band, ostensibly to observe the Archangel, but with orders to report back to Dominic the instant they discover anything even remotely alluding to collusion between Nybbas and Eli. Of course, they're in the limelight too, and loving every moment of it. The third member of the triad is one of their roadies, and is widely believed to be mute. The great thing about having the Archangel of Creation in a band is that the songs are always catchy. Even dour Michael has been heard to hum the latest Buoyancy hit, although he denies having heard of the band. The difficult thing about having Eli in the public eye is that he hogs the spotlight - the fan mail addressed to "Kevin Neil" is carted to the agency twice a day. That hasn't kept Eli from crafting all sorts of artifacts, however - just the other day, one of the Dominicans had to pilfer a microphone that had the Ethereal Song of Attraction bound into it, courtesy of the Archangel of Creation. Unfortunately, things are coming to a head - Dominic wants some results, Eli is getting more and more temperamental with each passing day, and Nybbas (who is, after all, nobody's fool, unlike certain other Demon Princes) is beginning to notice a lot of angelic interest in Buoyancy. Time is running out for the three members of the triad, and there's no telling what will happen when Eli decides he wants to do a duet with Britney Spears... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:14:51 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> My problems with the Revelations Cycle Special thanks to High Queen Beth the Administrator for her comments on my work and everyone else who have given their advice and opinions on my Nine Thesis. Now for what presumably was a less controversial point here's why I dislike the "Revelations Cycle" and in a note of positive what I *DID* like about it. The Good... Individually: I> Night Music: The Good: The Demon of Suicide, The Tether to Saminga, Soldier Rules, Christopher, Fleurity, Drug rules, the Majority of the Cast from Austin Texas were very cool and have showed up in my campaign at varying points....The Demon Prince of Rock and Roll is a favorite of mine though his rules I didn't much care for nor did I feel the authors felt he had much chance of displacing the status quo. The Bad: Laurence I felt was not sufficently fleshed out nor did I feel was Saminga in terms of history and work though the "world of the dead" was a very funny concept I love today. I felt that the Austin chronicle premise of there being a Truce in a specific city highly unrealistic, I also felt the idea no Malakim were there or new unrealistic too (Laurence and David know obviously) II> The Marches The Good: The Sorcery Rules, the Ethereal pantheons even the slightest bit written up (the kahones also to kill off alot of gods! Whoo hoo! Athena deserves her own pantheon!), The Blandine and Beleth writeups were very good in my opinion, Gabriel and Belial felt extremely out of place but I love them both so very much, and the Sorcery rules. The Bad: The above fact Belial and Gabriel have no place in the Marches book, the "adventure" was extremely weak and I didn't exactly think it was an adventure so much as a weird group of NPCs who frankly while...interesting...I suppose I didn't think had much use for everything. Heaven and Hell: Mammon is a very fun and very traditional demon prince who needs expansion on his "fall" i think, Zadkiel has her uses but is also in serious need of an Eowynizing (giving her a personality and maybe a crush on Laurence hehehe), the depictions of Heaven and Hell very very vivid in art and works and I liked them as well with Uriel's cathedral still sticking in my mind. The Bad: The above plus the fact felt something was missing from certain places in Hell despite that yes it was a very good campaign setting it felt too much like a tour guide and not enough for a system of running a campaign (Heaven I think should have SOME adventures despite what they say). I also questioned some of the historical figures present in Hell (Rockerfeller?) but that's personal preference. The adventure was the most awful part for me not only did it involve LOKI (who has nothing to do with Heaven and Hell) but the setting didn't strike me at all interesting whatsoever for all but the local gritty style play. Not too interesting for the people who like The Demon Prince of Rock and Roll epicness. Fall of the Malakim Didn't buy it so couldn't tell you. The Final Trumpet The Good: I *love* this supplement's adventure and have stolen so many adventures from it, it's not even funny. The Signs are all beautifully done and the information on Baal, Khalid, and Magog were great! The story was wonderful and the picture of gabriel on the cover I'd magnify and put on as a poster if I could. Khalid had some flaws addressed in Superiors 3 it's noted and also I felt that for the only Habbalah RELIGEOUS prince (as opposed to Vapula) that they didn't dwell on how obviously perfectly suited the Demon Prince of Fanatacism was as a foe of Heaven and God. The Bad: This adventure is the most railroaded overstuffed thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Worse it isn't railroaded in a SANE way with the Archangels/Demon Princes of the PCs gathering together to say "We want you to investigate this, that, and it's brother" but relying on the players to do bizzare actions.... Also the idea that proving a Malakim didn't fall (They SHOULD have had him Fall....that would have been much cooler) stopping the War also was ludicrous as was surviving a Trip to Hell let alone the Lower Hells with one's sanity not severely effected or without Superior level Help (even Lucifers would have been interesting at this point) Overall: There was no connection to call this a metaplot and it really was overall a "grab bag" of ideas that seemed like they'd been gathered off someone's desk and put together in random Order. There is no unifying theme for the most part and the adventures for the most part suck in connection due to the wildly varying tone and content. A better system probably would have been to have the Ascension of Fufur (And a Prince shall rise to power with 10,000,000 followers) be the First sign and built adventures around each til Armageddon breaks out and some MASSIVE event such as Magog's defeat or whoevers breaks the will of the battle. That would have been betetr to MY campaign at least. Also to have the content linked by theme like the Superiors books with Night Music about "Modern Princes" or whatnot, the Marches about "Dreams, children, ect". and so forth. My .02 - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:39:53 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: IN> Iron Rev 4 Closed! Since I didn't get any emails begging for extensions, I figure now is a good time to announce the end of the contest. Ladies and Gentlemen, the Contestants: EDG with "Temple on the Edge of Yesterday", wherein awaits a pre-Fall conspiracy, a brainwash slab, and hot angel sex. Well, maybe not that last part. Maurice 'I've got a Ferret in my Trousers' Lane with "The Love Song of Djinn Asmodeus, Prince", wherein Hell's answer to Herman Goering prufrocks up. Anthony Damiani with "Radio Free Heaven", wherin angelic PCs attempt to beat Nybbas at his own game. Suckers. and The Right Reverend Pee (is for Persian) Kitty with "Eponymous", wherein a good ex-Vapulan, lost love, and the equivalent of a celestial cell phone intersect. Hijinks ensue. Unfortuately, I must disqualify James Walker and his seed "Angel Dust" for exceeding the 10k limit. Sorry James, no humorous quote for you. The entries should be posted on Moe's website this weekend. Right, Moe? - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:43:29 -0700 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> My problems with the Revelations Cycle >The Good: The Sorcery Rules, the Ethereal pantheons even the slightest bit >written up (the kahones also to kill off alot of gods! Whoo hoo! Athena deserves her own pantheon!), The Blandine and Beleth writeups were very good >in my opinion, Gabriel and Belial felt extremely out of place but I love >them both so very much, and the Sorcery rules. > Personally (though I haven't actually used them in game, just read them), I think that In Nomine has one of the best and most evocative magic rules (yeah, I call them magic, one of my personal quibbles with IN). Though if I ever run an IN campaign, they will be a little less tied with Hell, more neutral. That said, when I read the IN rulebook the first time, I fel that it was a very complete book, lacking only information on how to play Ethereals. So I was very put-out at the lack of information on Ethereals in the Marches (honestly, the superior write-ups are much longer then the Ethereal section). I agree that Gabriel and Belial shouldn't have been in the book, and the extra space should have been spent on playing Ethereals. I also >questioned some of the historical figures present in Hell (Rockerfeller?) >but that's personal preference. Frankly, any universe that puts Richard the Lion-Hearted (a bigoted and power-hungry butcher) in Heaven and Jim Morrison (one of the greatest and most mystical of modern musicians) in Hell is SERIOUSLY screwed-up. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:00:32 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Opinions are like navels > No, thank you: the Yves/Michael/Eli Trinity that one > of my PCs is currently gibbering at* is quite evil** > enough. Especially since the Eli part is apparently > not dealing with apotheosis well... > *Well, as much as a Malakite Vassal of the Sword CAN > gibbber, which is (now that I think of it) not much at > all. :) I seem to recall Invictus doing a fair bit of stammering before his Archangel as he attempted to reconcile Truly Revealed Knowledge and deeply rooted beliefs. Just how DO you restore a broken Godhead, anyway? - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:27:27 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line > > I'll say this up front I absolutely hate the In Nomine system and as I've > > explained it above I still haven't figured out character creation let alone > > how to run a honest to God game (Thank my ST for being very generous) > > GURPS is available if you hate the IN system. I can't imagine that SJG > is going to design a _third_ game system to use with IN, however. They don't have to, the original French system is cleaner, makes more sense (especially in terms of combat), and actually statisically satisfying (songs at level 1 don't suck, for instance, you can actually succeed using them !) Frankly, having to buy a Song at level 5 or 6 just to be able to use in the first session REALLY SUCKS - it gives you nothing to look forward to, except raising your Forces, which, surprisingly enough, is exactly the first thing my players wanted to do with their XP. At least in WoD and INSMV the beginning levels of the powers can be used. > > 3:) Index card sized character sheets > > > > You'd think dealing with immortal omnipotent beings such as celestials that > > you would have LARGER character sheets than this particular point. However > > these things righteously suck. > > I've never seen a beginning celestial who wouldn't fit on them. Even > among powerful celestials, they're not supposed to have laundry lists of > powers. (OK, I write mine that way, but I can't help it, I'm a rules > mechanics junkie. The game is _supposed_ to be simple with a fairly high > level of abstraction.) Since when is a character merely a bunch of numbers ? (At least when you're /roleplaying/, not playing a hack and slash game with "plot.") > > There's really no new information there. I mean the Trisanogists and some > > cool sounding NPCs but that's it. I mean WHY are they the Most Holy? What's > > the Seraphim's general opinion on each superior? > > These are very much "The book has stuff someone else was interested in, > not stuff *I* was interested in" complaints. Actually, you'd be surprised just how many gamers share common interests and disinterests. > > 6:) The Revelations Cycle > > > > I love these books, I honestly do. My only problem is that they read like a > > gaming magazine rather than a adventure and occasionally they didn't make > > sense...also with the Superior guides the "fleshings" out of the Superiors > > were the biggest wastes of space I've ever seen. > > Again, a known issue. So, fix it already. :-P - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd "A person's character is his destiny." - --fortune cookie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:35:53 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line > However, aren't the events that make the news every day a > "storyline" that constantly grows and develops and provides new mulch for > the Secret War? > > Here's an idea: regular short 'bulletins', based on real world > news. Nothing any more earthshattering than what actually happened -- it's > *all* a suggestion -- but outlining ways in which human events shape the > War, and providing adventure seeds for players. First, Hey, I can think of something from last week that could be used to bring Ouikka the DP of, essentially, Terrorism, into the American game . . . You guys brought in Khalid as a Muslium AA, why not bring in a Demonic Superior to oppose him ? (from the original INSMV Islam sourcebook nonetheless, which I happen to own, should you need an author for that) Second, I strongly feel that maintaining an official IN game world storyline would be best, thus presenting the suggestions as "official" with a notice in the front that everything can be ignored if the GM wishes to. People, in general, like the security of what's official AND they like to have something to follow, something to look forward to that's actually connected to whatt's happened before. Frankly, merely lumping together a lot of suggestions and publishing them in books is, well, lame. I can get better stuff off the fan-sites on-line. I want to know the _real_ storyline, which only the IN producers can give me. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd Qu'est qui de vert devient rouge et frappe frénétiquement à la porte ? Un scout dans un four à micro-onde. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:01:33 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Iron Rev 4 Closed! From: "Eric Bertish" > Since I didn't get any emails begging for extensions, I figure now is a good > time to announce the end of the contest. I had posted a message to the list about needing a couple of days to finish my submission... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 04:30:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Iron Rev 4 Closed! On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Eric Bertish wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, the Contestants: What about Richard's "Survive the Temptation of Maze Island"? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! :: Prayers are like junk mail for Jesus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:54:50 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Nine Thesis > > Gurps: In Nomine is a wonderful supplement and I hope it's selling well for > > Steve Jackson games but I'm a glutton for punishment. Like Vampire fans the > > problem is that while the Vamprie system may suck all the supplementary > > information is in the old format. > > For what it's worth, I *like* the d666 system. It works very well for the > game, allowing all levels a chance at spectacular success or failure. I > like GURPS better, but for In Nomine, the d666 is perfect, IMO. Um, the statistical spread sucks ass, and isn't worth the time of day, SFAIC. From merely a mathematical perspective, the die system is too grainy for the way the points are spent in character creation. The difference in the % chance of success betwen a Target Number of 5 (27%) and 6 (42%) is HUGE . . . isn't that an issue for you guys ? Didn't someone do the math when designing the system ? Granted, it's about as bad as the difference between 1 and 2 in the French game : http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/insmv/umtablepercents.html (standard difficulty is moderate) but after 2 it levels out, in the American game it goes from 6 (42%) to 7 (58%) to 8 (72%) that's 30% of your statistical spread in three digits . . . and it's REALLY INEXPENSIVE to buy a skill/target number up through those levels . . . > > Yes David and I being the customer the question becomes who exactly is right > > the developer or myself. > > No, Charles. The question becomes who is right... YOU or the OTHER > customers. Lump me with Charles, as well as the seven gamers in my group . . . none of whom have any interest in buying even the core book for themselves . . . they spend all their money on WW stuff (they like the WoD storylines, actually). > I disagreed with all of your complaints about those three books, for > example. I found all the stuff interesting that you didn't. This has > nothign to do with the developer. It has to do with the customers. And it > doesn't come down to "Who's right, you or me?"... it comes down to "Do I > represent the majority of IN players, or do you?" > > That's the question of the day. And he does, at least in Athens, Ohio. (I know of no others in town.) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd "A person's character is his destiny." - --fortune cookie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:57:42 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line (And something that's been in my head) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd Qu'est qui de vert devient rouge et frappe frénétiquement à la porte ? Un scout dans un four à micro-onde. > > > Belial and Saminga continued internecine >fighting > in Hell over who shall assign the Seneschal >for the > forked Tether at the WTC. > > _Demonic_ Tether? > > Not in _my_ home universe, thank you very much. IMG, the towers were (will have been) a tether to Greed and to Trade, respectively. Maybe a split Greed/Freedom. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:09:28 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line > >WoD states over and over again that the players and Storytellers are more > >than welcome to change whatever rules they want and change the setting in > >whatever way they want, yet they maintain a general official feel for > >their games, they maintain growing official game worlds, and you know what > >? I -think- their sales are better than ours. > > World of Darkness has fixed concepts at it's core unlike those in In Nomine > which are variable and dependant on interpretation. Once you have these > fixed concepts it is far easier to move into creating game worlds. From my > experience you are probably right, most players do prefer to be fed candy > and White Wolf are very good at providing the candy. nod. I like candy, so do most consumers, and they're the ones buying the books. (Or not buying.) > Another advantage of World of Darkness is that the characters are (or at > the very least were) human. They have a human mindset for the player to > fall back on, past experiences and belief systems. > > In Nomine Celestials are not human and yet to play them it is almost > inevitable they will take on human characteristics. They start to gain > free will purely because they are being played by humans, and of course as > soon as an angel starts doing this it is in danger. IMHO the whole free > will thing needs a rethink, as does other areas of why celestials are in > part 'just like us' and in part utterly alien. This needs to be made more > accessible to roleplaying especially in the concept of a long term game. One idea I've toyed with is having the celestials inserted into human bodies (as they are in the French game) and have them start off with all those human's memories, and at first having to "realize/remember" who they really are, kind of like Changeling, it occurs to me. > >There are lots of people out there who prefer to play the games they want > >to. They're going to do that whether or not there's an official setting. > >But there are more people out there who are more comfortable with an > >official setting, and even more who are buying WW's books if only to see > >what cool new stuff is happening in the WoD universe. > > I accept this point. I must admit I do at times get annoyed at White Wolf, > not all their books are up to scratch, too many feel rushed and incomplete > and IMHO are put out purely for the collector mindset. OTOH it is also the > way to ensure the continuation of a line. Yes. > >Cas : > > >Why dont we just base it on the real world? > > >Well, we do but we have no feedback from SJG about how the AA's and DP's > >and > > >others are represented in this world. > > > >I think that this is an excellent idea, if only judging from the GMGpp92-94, > >where there is some clear interplay between real world events and Celestial > >politics, Christopher and the Children's Crusade, Laurence and the > >Reformation, Eli and Zoroaster . . . if IN can have a canon past rooted in > >real world events, why not a present and future ? > > Once you do this you start to create what will in reality be an alternative > world for a secret war, a world were powerful beings struggle for power and > domination unknown to the masses of humanity. Its already been done, it's > called World of Darkness, it's huge. In Nomine would always be playing > catch up, it would inevitably be compared and found wanting. Has been compared and found wanting already. I think that's the problem. (Compared to all other games, not just WoD.) > >Omentide : > > >The problem with adding colour and background is that it can become > > >restrictive. As stated elsewhere the more background material produced the > > >more the game world can become set in stone. This could well drive away > > >just as many players as it brings in. > > > >Except that . . . those who wish to change a game world will, with or > >without a "set/canon" setting. > > True. > However you are probably right that In Nomine does suffer for the lack of a > canonical and supported game world. The issue is how to do this and that > assumes Steve Jackson Games actually wants to take on such a large > project. Right now I am far from convinced SJG does want to do this or > that there is a sufficiently large fan base to make it worthwhile. The fan base won't expand until it has a reason to. > The easiest way may be to go along the Cabal concept. Secret societies > that operate on the Corporeal and perpetuate te war and strggle for human > souls. and not actually touch the real world at all other than by stating > these societies havwe influence in high places and listing their potential > areas of interest. I highly agree. (Especially since this is the model is use for my game, since it works seemlessly.) > > >I, for one, would be more than willing to see canon > > >take a 90 degree turn from my interpretation. After all, I > > >can only buy future supplements if the line is still alive. > > > And I can always change things to however I want them to > > >be in my campaign. > > > >Agreed. > > Me too. But the issue is how. The starting point needs to be how > celestials interact with the real world and each other. IMHO this needs > examining carefully and a solid rethink. All the stuff in Superiors can be > left as is, most Celestials never go to the Corporeal, it would be easy > enough to assume those that do receive special training and as a result are > not quite like those who do not. > > Unless you want a combat game (and I don't) the contrast needs to be turned > down. If you want politics and Live Action Games the same is true. ::nod:: And I see the American game as moving far from a combat orientated game, as the French game seems to be. > Ultimately I too want to see In Nomine survive and develop. I think there > is a great deal within the game which is original and good. I'm of the > opinion certain parts of the core book need a rethink and rewrite before > any sort of canonical world (or world background) can be introduced. Agreed. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd "J'ai vu Dieu. Elle est noire, communiste et lesbienne." Anne-Marie Fauret ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:13:42 -0700 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> IN Game Line > So he has to roll a 9 or less with two dice and the CD indicates the level > of success or failure. This works great. It's simple. > > Now take a human with an agility of 2 and driving 3. The chance of success > is greatly reduced despite the fact that humans are likely to be far more > familiar with driving than most celestial beings. The mechanics do not > work very well with humans. The fact that skills etc are based on number > of forces does not help. IMHO humans should be far more skilled at dealing > with the Corporeal realm that Celestials, not less. > > There are various fixes for this but none seem to really work as they should. > > Ashley. Ahem, using the French system http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/insmv/umtablepercents.html typical humans have stats of 1 or 2, human max is 3. Starting Angels and Demons start off with stats at about this same level, only they can go up to 4 or 5 if they want. With a stat of 4 or 5, you use something akin to the Risk rules to gain (sick) bonuses to the CD. Basically, a +1 to the Cd for every column you shift left. :) Needless to day, this system allows celestials to -clearly- outshine human beings, without leaving human beings completely helpless as they are in the American game. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd "The man who strikes first admits that his ideas have given out. " - --Chinese Proverb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:55:09 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Babel.. *a video tape is given to who ever and you get to see it..* scene: a cafe, town center, two men at a table, one of them older, perhaps in his fifties, severe looking, salt and pepper beard, well dressed, the other, skin the colour of chocolate, hair in dreads, trimmed goatee, casually dressed. Both men drinking mocha's, the cups hiding thier lips. Once they finish thier drinks both men get up, shake hands, you can then see them but not hear them talk. Olderman: very well, i shall see if i can build such a thing Dark skinned man: good, well i shall you back in the council hall, let us see what they think of the idea, i wanted to run it past you first, i have thought about for some time, but i think the tower of babel should be rebuilt, well until later jean Olderman: yes, i think the idea has merit, i will get some of my finest to contact some of your finest and they will draw the plans up for it. Good day to you dave. *the video tape ends with both men going in different directions* Toodles Cas *where you come from is gone, where you're going was never there, and where you are aint no good unless you can get away from it* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inmundi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semperin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infabula _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:59:30 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Murmurs in the grove >I like the possibilities here. Do develope it please. > >Jeffery It would be best if folks add thier own slants to it, that way it fits in to the style of the game, but if pressed i'll do a cursory write up about a Heaven/Ethereal soldier exchange, and i'll make it suitably twisted as per my own style. Toodles Cas *where you come from is gone, where you're going was never there, and where you are aint no good unless you can get away from it* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inmundi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/semperin http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infabula _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2383 ********************************