in_nomine-digest Monday, November 12 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2438 In this digest: IN> In Nomine Game Quotes IN> Thoughts on Word-Forces Re: IN> In Nomine Game Quotes Re: IN> Alternate Realities RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... Re: IN> HELLLP!! Word Forces RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... IN> Tattered Propoganda Storm - Part 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:37:54 -0500 From: "Brian R. Boyko" Subject: IN> In Nomine Game Quotes Mercurian of Yves on a stealth mission to hell ends up in the realm of the Virtuous Pagans, has alot of fun chatting with Socrates, & leaning on the triclinium, eating grapes with ancient philosophers: "Well, I'd come back here, but the commute is murder." Ofanim of Jean's after putting on evil shoes in hell, and finding that not only are they not coming off his feet but that they're also /arguing/ with each other - the shoes that is: "Bit of a spat, eh?" Followed up with: "This is what happens to evil soles when they die." Mercurian of Yves, when confronted with a cauldron. "Uh, you don't happen to be a _talking_ cauldron, do you?" Cauldron, unexpectedly: "Uh, what of it?" Merc: Uh, nothing, just wondering. At the entrance in hell, there's a line to get in. It SLOWLY moves - going through the line could take millenia. Mercurian: "Uh, Houdini, know how to break out of this line?" Houdini: "Uh, well, I can break out of anything in less than a day, Hell included." Mercurian: "Then why'd it take you 1000 years to break out?" Houdini: "I was waiting in this line." Later on, all hell broke loose, QUITE LITERALLY, and the souls in the line were running out of the gates of hell... 2nd guy on line: "But... but... but... I was next... I was the next guy on line... I... was going to be next... Thousands of years in line... then... nothing... This is just like when it rains at six flags..." Mercurian of Yves who had his wings stripped off of him to make him look like a damned soul on the undercover mission: "Crud. I've been bumped down to 2nd class." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:59:45 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: IN> Thoughts on Word-Forces Hey, > What are word forces, where can I find more info on them, and > > who came up with them? > >Word forces are a way of tracking the relative importance and power of the >words that celestials are bound to. For more detail, find a copy of the >Gamemaster's Guide. It has a section that summarises them far better than I >can right now. :;:) Ah, well, the GMG reference is done, so I might as well throw in some thoughts I've been having about Word-Forces... Word-Forces, as presently defined, are a representation of the Word's importance and pervasiveness on the corporeal plane. A celestial bound to a Significant Word will immediately gain 7-10 Word Forces (GM's call, as per the Word-Forces guidelines in the GMG.) A new Angel of Ships, for example, immediately gains, say, 8 Forces. This is where I beg to differ. This number, 8 Forces, represents the _maximum_ Word-Forces a celestial can gain. When he is bound to a Word, he does not immediately gain the maximum Word-Forces available to him. Instead he must work to understand, define, and embody his Word to gain more Word-Forces. Word-Forces thus become a representation of how much grasp a celestial has on his Word, not on the actual potency of the Word on the corporeal plane. Now, a new Word-bound doesn't have to start out at 1 Word-Force. He can start out at the maximum, or he can start out with a token number of Word-Forces...this is all dependent on how much he's worked towards attaining the Word in the first place. A demon suddenly granted a Word by Lucifer (one he hasn't worked towards) starts out at 1 Word-Force. Same thing for an angel, but since the Seraphim Council doesn't just whimsically hand out Words, newly Word-bound angels should still start out better off than their demonic counterparts. Thus, even a fledgling Demon Prince starts out at 1 Word-Force, even though his or her Word is clearly Superior-level. Same thing for Archangels. They spend the rest of their lives working towards their maximum Word-Forces. Acting against the interests of one's Word costs the celestial in Word-Forces. This is the trade-off, beyond actually having dissonance conditions for Word-bound. A celestial gains Word-Forces by promoting and better understanding his Word...but he cannot go beyond the maximum Word-Forces, unless the GM rules that his work has increased the relative importance of his Word to the Symphony. Compartmentalizing Words like this makes more sense to me. When a celestial loses Word-Forces in celestial combat, the actual Symphonic concept is not affected. (Take note that this is still in line with the GMG's Word-Forces rules.) Just because there isn't a Prince of Sloth doesn't mean that there isn't any more Sloth in the world. This is what didn't exactly make much sense to me in the GMG...if the celestial were bound to the actual Symphonic concept, then his or her losing Word-Forces in celestial combat should have weakened the importance of the Word in mortal society. Of course, older Word-bound should be at the maximum or close to it. Ah, that's it. Questions, comments, clarifications? Thanks, ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools "One alone is much less than half of two." -- Dave Duncan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:17:15 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Game Quotes From: "Brian R. Boyko" > > Mercurian of Yves who had his wings stripped off of him to make him look like > a damned soul on the undercover mission: "Crud. I've been bumped down to > 2nd class." Still laughing at this one... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:07:17 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Realities Hey, I'm surprised no one's mentioned Tattered yet...last I checked, someone was speculating that canon Valefor was Tattered's Janus, who'd found a way to escape to the canon universe. Moe even wrote up a Servitor who'd done the same thing, as I recall. At 11:56 AM 11/10/01 -0500, you wrote: >There were a few more details to the ideas we were kicking around: > >1) None of the Superiors were aware of the multiplicity of the planes, >save only Yves. Yves knows, but doesn't tell -- one of the reasons he >seems so obtuse at times is because he is simultaneously present on all of >them, and so says what he thinks is a direct answer to questions asked of >him, but it's an answer coming from an combination of infinite >perspectives. There is in fact, only one Yves, as there is only one God. Works for me, and if you're working from canon, I suggest a single Kronos as well. >2) There are multiple Lucifers. :) Ditto. *ponders* I wonder what would happen if an Archangel of Light somewhere came into contact with a First Balseraph? >3) There is one way of crossing to an alternate universe. Way, Way, Way >out in the Far, Far, Far Marches, there is an overlap to the next reality. >It is theoretically possible that a Celestial could step across that >boundary and be in another reality. Of course, it is guarded. By either >a gargantuan sentinel with orders to destroy anyone attempting to cross >over, or by Uriel himself. Uriel has standing orders from God that the >realities are not to interfere with each other. God (apparently) does not >want Superiors to know about the alternative worlds: Heveanly Superiors >would want to protect or spread their words there, Hellish Superiors would >want to use them as another battlefield. If any of the Lucifers (or >whoever is running Hell in whatever reality) should find out....it would >be _bad_. Do you mean just one Uriel, or _all_ the Uriels? That could also have interesting effects. The Archangel of Purity, slowly being driven mad by constantly being aware that he exists in many different incarnations. I'd imagine that the only Choir it wouldn't drive mad would be the Kyriotates. I was rereading the LR the other day and I noticed the Songs of Location. Perhaps a variant of the Songs could be used to bridge the universes? You've already got some good ideas for plot seeds, I think I'll leave it at that. Thanks, ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools "One alone is much less than half of two." -- Dave Duncan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:15:06 -0500 From: "Matthew B. Gerber" Subject: RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... > Snarfed this up from .innomine, on Pyramid; though that some of > y'all might be interested: > From: "Brian R. Boyko" > http://www.geocities.com/boyko3/innominealterum.pdf This is a conversion of In Nomine to Storyteller, without target numbers so you can use six-sided dice and with a couple of twists added. One particular oddity is that the system as written rewards large amounts of Essence expenditure, but not small ones. Spend one point of Essence and you only have a 1/3 chance of getting any positive effect, but over a large amount of Essence you'll get half the Essence you expend back in successes. In a low power game, or in a game where you otherwise want small amounts of Essence to mean a little more, you might want to take another page from Storyteller. Let expenditure of (n) Essence give (n) automatic successes on a roll; each rolled 1 would erase one of these, to offset a bit. On the other hand, this probably makes Essence *too* powerful. I'm not too sure about this system. It's interesting, but I have doubts about Storyteller working very well without target numbers, and I wish the fellow had admitted his source material. I suppose it's *possible* that he could have accidentally duplicated Storyteller this thoroughly--especially subconsciously--but it's a pretty complete duplication. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 23:22:45 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> HELLLP!! Word Forces At 2:56 PM -0600 11/10/01, Prodigal wrote: >From: >> >> What are word forces, where can I find more info on them, and >> who came up with them? > >Word forces are a way of tracking the relative importance and power of the >words that celestials are bound to. For more detail, find a copy of the >Gamemaster's Guide. It has a section that summarises them far better than I >can right now. :;:) They are also an optional way of quantifying the power of a Word. They just happen to be a real _useful_ way to do it, IMNSHO. O:> (Because they are, indeed, optional (and because different GMs may assign different values to different Words), Word-bound who have their Word-Forces listed will have the value labled "Suggested.") And that's about all that _I_ can do right now. Wigglebaby! Aie! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 04:37:34 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... > > Snarfed this up from .innomine, on Pyramid; though that some of > > y'all might be interested: > > From: "Brian R. Boyko" > > http://www.geocities.com/boyko3/innominealterum.pdf > >This is a conversion of In Nomine to Storyteller, without target numbers so >you can use six-sided dice and with a couple of twists added. Well, you must be working on inside information, because it's never stated that it's a conversation of In Nomine to Storyteller (I'll assume that you mean WoD). Also, frankly, it couldn't be much of a conversion, seeing as Storyteller uses d10 and not d6 . . . While I will agree that it definitely feels heavily influenced by the WoD Storyteller system, I disagree that it's a conversion. >I'm not too sure about this system. It's interesting, but I have doubts >about Storyteller working very well without target numbers read Exalted yet? and I wish the >fellow had admitted his source material. I suppose it's *possible* that he >could have accidentally duplicated Storyteller this thoroughly--especially >subconsciously--but it's a pretty complete duplication. > >Matt I don't really see much duplication going on here, frankly. While the skill list definitely appears to be a lift, the dice system isn't. Frankly, it reminded me more of Shadowrun than Storyteller (if only for the d6). Storyteller has it's one's negating successes, this system does not. Aside from Exalted (which doesn't use Difficulties/Target Numbers, iirc), Storyteller system rules do use Target Numbers, this system doesn't . . . While I do sense the similiarity, I'm not willing to say that it's a complete duplication - given that the rules are different, use different dice, and similar dice systems are present in game systems other than the Storyteller system. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:40:58 -0500 From: "Brian R. Boyko" Subject: RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... At 04:37 AM 11/12/01 +0000, you wrote: >> > Snarfed this up from .innomine, on Pyramid; though that some of >> > y'all might be interested: >> > From: "Brian R. Boyko" >> > http://www.geocities.com/boyko3/innominealterum.pdf >> >>This is a conversion of In Nomine to Storyteller, without target numbers so >>you can use six-sided dice and with a couple of twists added. > >Well, you must be working on inside information, because it's never stated >that it's a conversation of In Nomine to Storyteller (I'll assume that you >mean WoD). Also, frankly, it couldn't be much of a conversion, seeing as >Storyteller uses d10 and not d6 . . . > >While I will agree that it definitely feels heavily influenced by the WoD >Storyteller system, I disagree that it's a conversion. To be honest, I was probably more influenced by the Palladium system than Storyteller, especially in the combat mechanics. >>I'm not too sure about this system. It's interesting, but I have doubts >>about Storyteller working very well without target numbers > >read Exalted yet? > >and I wish the >>fellow had admitted his source material. I suppose it's *possible* that he >>could have accidentally duplicated Storyteller this thoroughly--especially >>subconsciously--but it's a pretty complete duplication. >> >>Matt > >I don't really see much duplication going on here, frankly. While the >skill list definitely appears to be a lift, the dice system isn't. Yeah, about that - I lifted skills pretty much from everywhere. Where there was an In Nomine skill, I tried to use that terminology, where there wasn't, I tried to use broad terminology. I took skills from In Nomine first, then looked through other books - mostly GURPS but also D&D and, yes, Storyteller, to get a list I felt was complete. Then again, how many different synonyms for "Shooting Stuff With A Gun" are there? Almost every system uses the same skill list, just different terminology. "Empathy" in In Nomine, is "Sense Motive" in D&D, is "Detect Lies" in GURPS... slightly different, but all similar. I tried to use the broadest terminology available - "Ranged Weapon" instead of "Firearms", "Savoir-Faire" instead of "Etiquette" >Frankly, it reminded me more of Shadowrun than Storyteller (if only for >the d6). >Storyteller has it's one's negating successes, this system does >not. Aside from Exalted (which doesn't use Difficulties/Target Numbers, >iirc), Storyteller system rules do use Target Numbers, this system doesn't >. . . > >While I do sense the similiarity, I'm not willing to say that it's a >complete duplication - given that the rules are different, use different >dice, and similar dice systems are present in game systems other than the >Storyteller system. There's going to be similarities in any game system that uses "asymptotically-approaching-one" probabilities, just as there will be similarities in any game systems that use percentiles, 3d6, or any other of a number of systems. If you look hard enough, of course, there's going to be similarities in all systems - I personally can't think of one that doesn't use one form of "base score + modification for skills". Brian >-Perry > >perrylloyd@hotmail.com >pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu >http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:54:44 -0500 From: "Brian R. Boyko" Subject: RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... At 12:15 PM 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > > Snarfed this up from .innomine, on Pyramid; though that some of > > y'all might be interested: > > From: "Brian R. Boyko" > > http://www.geocities.com/boyko3/innominealterum.pdf First off, thanks for looking at the thing. >This is a conversion of In Nomine to Storyteller, without target numbers so >you can use six-sided dice and with a couple of twists added. For the record, if I wanted to do a IN/Storyteller true conversion, I could have, there's even one on Pyramid that's _compatible_ with the storyteller system as written, using d10s, target numbers, attributes & abilities, etc. I didn't. There's probably a bunch of them already out there, and I didn't particularly feel a need to make a new one. >One particular oddity is that the system as written rewards large amounts of >Essence expenditure, but not small ones. Spend one point of Essence and you >only have a 1/3 chance of getting any positive effect, but over a large >amount of Essence you'll get half the Essence you expend back in successes. I disagree - in fact, that's part of the problem I wanted to avoid. Let's take a person with a normal dicepool of 2. Spend 1 essence on an ability you have say a total of 2 dice on, you've increased your chances dramatically -from 55% to. 70% - That's 15% for one essence! The second point of essence only increases the ability to succeed to 81% - an increase of only 6%. The system was designed to reward small expenditures of essence as well as large ones - but it was designed to reward them differently. Spending a little bit of essence is useful for actions where you're not sure you're going to succeed, and could use a little "boost" to increase your chances of success. Spending large amounts of essence is really for when you _need_ tons of successes. The essence points are a big bonus when you spend them on stuff "you don't have a prayer" on, and a small bonus when you could do something in your sleep. After all, when really *is* the time for miracles? Let me put it this way - John Connor is trying to avoid being crushed under the wheels of the 18 wheeler driven by the T-1000. The evil robot gains on John... he needs to make a drive roll... just to keep out from under the wheels... just to keep ahead - barely. He might spend a little essence to make sure that he doesn't gets crushed. Later on, T-1000 is advancing on Sarah Connor in the metal factory - The Good Terminator will probably spend all of his essence in that one shot from the grenade launcher to make sure that the evil robot goes down and _stays_ down. The Good Terminator could hit the T1000 in his sleep - it was doing the damage that was important. This was a big problem, IMO, with the original In Nomine system - you're typically either competent in an ability or not competent, and spending a little essence neither made you much more competent or much more likely to succeed, unless you were near 6 or 7 to begin with. >In a low power game, or in a game where you otherwise want small amounts of >Essence to mean a little more, you might want to take another page from >Storyteller. Let expenditure of (n) Essence give (n) automatic successes on >a roll; each rolled 1 would erase one of these, to offset a bit. On the >other hand, this probably makes Essence *too* powerful. It does, which is why I didn't do it that way. Essence increases luck, not guarantees luck. >I'm not too sure about this system. It's interesting, but I have doubts >about Storyteller working very well without target numbers, and I wish the >fellow had admitted his source material. I suppose it's *possible* that he >could have accidentally duplicated Storyteller this thoroughly--especially >subconsciously--but it's a pretty complete duplication. I did look at Storyteller, but I also looked at Palladium, Shadowrun & D&D, taking what I liked. Specifically, I took the idea of "dodge vs. parry" & "more than one action per round" from Palladium. The only thing "storyteller" about it is that the odds of success are asymptotically approaching zero - by that same logic, you could say that Deadlands is a ripoff of Storyteller which was in turn a ripoff of Shadowrun. For that matter, you could say that Champions is a ripoff of GURPS (They both use bell curves and they both use 3d6 for skills.) You could also say that Palladium is a ripoff of D&D. (They both use a d20) But I think, importantly, combat is radically different. (I hate Storyteller combat.) Attack and damage are figured in the same roll (with modifiers directly to damage from weaponry), there's a difference between dodge & parry, "soak" is determined, not asymptotically, but linearly, increasing the chances that your constitution score won't do anything at all until you get up to high levels, and you get more than one action per turn, based on your forces. >Matt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:11:06 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> For Those Who Hate The d666... >>> > Snarfed this up from .innomine, on Pyramid; though that some of >>> > y'all might be interested: >>> > From: "Brian R. Boyko" >>> > http://www.geocities.com/boyko3/innominealterum.pdf >>> >>>This is a conversion of In Nomine to Storyteller, without target numbers >>>so >>>you can use six-sided dice and with a couple of twists added. >> >>Well, you must be working on inside information, because it's never stated >>that it's a conversation of In Nomine to Storyteller (I'll assume that you >>mean WoD). Also, frankly, it couldn't be much of a conversion, seeing as >>Storyteller uses d10 and not d6 . . . >> >>While I will agree that it definitely feels heavily influenced by the WoD >>Storyteller system, I disagree that it's a conversion. > >To be honest, I was probably more influenced by the Palladium system than >Storyteller, especially in the combat mechanics. >>I don't really see much duplication going on here, frankly. While the >>skill list definitely appears to be a lift, the dice system isn't. > >Yeah, about that - I lifted skills pretty much from everywhere. Where >there was an In Nomine skill, I tried to use that terminology, where there >wasn't, I tried to use broad terminology. I took skills from In Nomine >first, then looked through other books - mostly GURPS but also D&D and, >yes, Storyteller, to get a list I felt was complete. My only beef with the skill selection was leaving out Artistry - since in In Nomine that skill can be used to by Celestials leave messages in works of art, like street wall art, or in doodles passed in class. >Then again, how many different synonyms for "Shooting Stuff With A Gun" are >there? Almost every system uses the same skill list, just different >terminology. I prefer "Shootin' things with . . . guns" as found in HoL :) "Empathy" in In Nomine, is "Sense Motive" in D&D, is >"Detect >Lies" in GURPS... slightly different, but all similar. I tried to use the >broadest terminology available - "Ranged Weapon" instead of "Firearms", >"Savoir-Faire" instead of "Etiquette" /Why/ is Savoir-Faire paired with Agility, btw? >>Frankly, it reminded me more of Shadowrun than Storyteller (if only for >>the d6). >>Storyteller has it's one's negating successes, this system does >>not. Aside from Exalted (which doesn't use Difficulties/Target Numbers, >>iirc), Storyteller system rules do use Target Numbers, this system doesn't >>. . . >> >>While I do sense the similiarity, I'm not willing to say that it's a >>complete duplication - given that the rules are different, use different >>dice, and similar dice systems are present in game systems other than the >>Storyteller system. > >There's going to be similarities in any game system that uses >"asymptotically-approaching-one" probabilities, just as there will be >similarities in any game systems that use percentiles, 3d6, or any other of >a number of systems. > >If you look hard enough, of course, there's going to be similarities in all >systems - I personally can't think of one that doesn't use one form of >"base score + modification for skills". At the moment, INS/MV is the only one I can think of that doesn't, and even then, your upper skill limit is determined by your Characteristic score (a skill associated with the characteristic "Appearance," for instance, can't exceed 3 if you have Appearance 3). That's a pretty minimal modification. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:58:16 +0000 From: "Jonathan Walton" Subject: IN> Tattered Propoganda Storm - Part 2 Hmm ... Sorry the propoganda's slowed down folks, but I've been working on cranking out the HTML for the Tattered Netbook's official release. Here's another few tidbits ... Oh My God! He Killed Michael! http://www.godmachine.org/tattered/propoganda/prop-mikedies.jpg And Moe's piece on the feel of Tattered, secretly leaked to the press... http://www.godmachine.org/tattered/index-mood.html The rest of the website is still (appropriately) in tatters, but I'm going to be making a major revision in the next few days that should get us reeeeeeeal close. Jonathan as Salathiel Elohite of Glory ISO the Sword Angel of Propoganda _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2438 ********************************