in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 29 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2462 In this digest: Re: IN> Triad 314 (Inspired by Dominican Tank Police) Re: Star Trek Races (Was: Re: IN> Re: Klingons) IN> Bracers of Brotherhood Re: Star Trek Races (Was: Re: IN> Re: Klingons) IN> Re: Triad 314 Re: Star Trek Races (Was: Re: IN> Re: Klingons) IN> Big Red, Flaming Red IN> Eden Ban/Heartless Re: IN> Eden Ban/Heartless Re: IN> Eden Ban/Heartless IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal IN> Wish List IN> Beven Was: ReI Need an Ethereal Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Beven Was: ReI Need an Ethereal Re: IN> Wish List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:00:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Triad 314 (Inspired by Dominican Tank Police) I like this very much. Of course, I like more "Dominic isn't really a jerk" schticks. It makes him seem more, I dunno, angelic. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:29:31 -0500 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: Star Trek Races (Was: Re: IN> Re: Klingons) > > > > > (looking up from scribbling) > > > > Oh, good. There'll be at least one person who won't > > be scratching his head at the Diane Duane references > > when I finally finish the writeup... :) > > > > (/looking up from scribbling) > >Two people. *g* > Up to at least 3 here. *g* BTW, for those who read her "you want to be a wizard" series, I have been wondering about using the song of the 12 in IN. Would the cetaceans be angels in vessels from Jordi or soldiers of Jordi or a combination? Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:48:20 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood This is a relic I used to Teach A Lesson to my group's angel of Stone. It doesn't have any points a la Liber Reliquarum mainly because it's a plot device, but also because I never really got the hang of the LR design system. The Bracers of Brotherhood are tools used by David when he wishes to encourage teamwork or correct excessive solo action among his servitors. They appear to be plain iron wristguards and will shrink to fit any size arm, and only after they have locked onto the Davidian will their true nature become apparent. Bracers typically come in pairs, though sets are not unheard of if Stone is trying to instruct a group. They are worn individually, not in pairs, usually on the dominant arm. The weaker arm is used only on particularly troublesome angels. When worn, the following effects activate: 1. The angel may not remove the bracer until either it, or its opponent, is defeated or surrenders. 2. The angel may not go celestial. 3. All corporeal damage done to the wearer becomes celestial damage instead. 4. Body hits replace -- not add to, replace -- Soul hits. 5. When a wearer strikes something, the damage is not done to the target. Instead, it is dealt to everyone else wearing a bracer. This damage is not divided, and -- you guessed it -- it's celestial. 6. Exception to the above: if everyone wearing a bracer strikes the same target at the same time (a coordinated effort as a team), then damage is dealt to the target instead and no injury is dealt to wearers. Opponents are typically powerful angels of Stone, usually Seneschals, with the Vassal distinction and attunements like Rock Hard and Armor. Angels being chastised through use of the bracers are not told about effects 2-6. David punishes those servitors who give the secret away. After surviving an ordeal like this, most Stonies shudder at the thought of what David might consider crueller than the bracers themselves... The reasoning behind the creation of the relic is typically Stone. David feels that the group is greater than the individual, and whenever an individual acts contrary to the goals of the group, that individual begins killing the group. The bracers make this philosophy literal: act as a group, or you kill each other. - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:16:04 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: Star Trek Races (Was: Re: IN> Re: Klingons) >Up to at least 3 here. *g* BTW, for those who read her "you want to be a >wizard" series, I have been wondering about using the song of the 12 in IN. >Would the cetaceans be angels in vessels from Jordi or soldiers of Jordi or >a combination? > >Jeffery Sentient beings. :^) Seriously, considering the multiple possible combinations, and the "dark" nature of some of the singers, it could be a joint Heaven-Hell project for some deep and ineffable reason. William *So many hooks, so few authors, so little free time... ;^) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:16:54 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Triad 314 > Which was precisely what Dominic was waiting for. Bravo [snicker] I've had SO many PC's it would have been fun to stuff into this Triad....:-) Cheers, James. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:25:46 -0500 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: Star Trek Races (Was: Re: IN> Re: Klingons) > >Up to at least 3 here. *g* BTW, for those who read her "you want to be a > >wizard" series, I have been wondering about using the song of the 12 in >IN. > >Would the cetaceans be angels in vessels from Jordi or soldiers of Jordi >or > >a combination? > > > >Jeffery > >Sentient beings. :^) > > > >Seriously, considering the multiple possible combinations, and the "dark" >nature of some of the singers, it could be a joint Heaven-Hell project for >some deep and ineffable reason. > >William Except in the series itself the song was to keep a form of Lucifer bound in the ocean's depth. He reperesented entropy and death in the sea. Perhaps a Heaven-Ethereal project. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:09:31 +0000 From: "Jonathan Walton" Subject: IN> Big Red, Flaming Red Hmm ... he's right, it is very ... red. Still, having been a part of the playtest, I think it does a better job of evoking the contents ("Flaming Might of Gabriel Power Smash!") than the blue one did (which had more of the post-modern, existentialist feeling common in newer anime). Let's hope it sells millions. Later. Jonathan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:22:05 +0000 From: "Jonathan Walton" Subject: IN> Eden Ban/Heartless Actually, I've been playing with the equivilent of the "Eden Ban" (though obviously, I don't call it that) for almost as long as I've been playing "In Nomine." Letting players spend some essence to go directly to Heaven or Hell is just _dumb_, in my opinion. I suppose it made sense to allow that in the main book (since it doesn't include rules for tethers), but it doesn't make sense otherwise. Celestials should only be able to travel between the three Realms using tethers. Why can't you follow a human soul to Heaven or Hell? Because human souls don't travel along tethers. Why are the Towers of Blandine and Beleth so important? Because they are the _only_ connections (besides Gabby's volcano) between the Celestial and Ethereal planes. Why do you think Laurence created the Guardians of the Vale? How did Lilith break the Fallen out of Hell? Hell was a Celestial prison cut off from Heaven and originally had no tethers until Lilith created the first tether to Freedom. Basically, so much of IN's background and mechanics makes _more_ sense if you have something like "the Eden Ban" in place, which is why, like I said, I've always ignored the real rules on that point. If SJGames ever gets around to printing a second edition (hah!), I really, really hope they make a change to canon. As for the "Heartless" concept, I must say that I haven't thought along those lines, but I really like that idea as well. Still, the only problem is that it makes going Outcast/Renegade incredibly easy, with little consequences as far as I can see. Still, there are some things you could do to discourage that ... Later. Jonathan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:34:04 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Eden Ban/Heartless - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Walton" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:22 PM Subject: IN> Eden Ban/Heartless [snip] > As for the "Heartless" concept, I must say that I haven't thought along > those lines, but I really like that idea as well. Still, the only problem > is that it makes going Outcast/Renegade incredibly easy, with little > consequences as far as I can see. Yes, that is a big one. OTOH, in a campaign where celestials on Earth duty are supposed to be rare and elite, the problems aren't quite as big. Plus, if Tethers are now complete and total chokepoints, you can do a lot to figure out who's gone Renegade this week merely by keeping excellent access logs -- and cross-referencing. And Dominic and Asmodeus have lots of Servitors on the celestial plane anyway... and of course, certain Superiors will try to keep Tethers loosely monitored, or hold out 'secret' Tethers in far-off and little visited portions of their Cathedrals/Principalities... .... ahhhh, the possibilities. Plus, who knows? If you want to run an all-Outcast or all-Renegade campaign, this be the stuff. Or a low-contrast campaign where the players really are free to choose whether they want to stay with the War... or just walk... > Still, there are some things you could do to discourage that ... Celestial Song of Affinity. Cherubim of Judgement and Djinn of the Game attunements for "flight-risk" celestials. And heck -- remember, any Superior can impose Discord on their own Servitors (obviously, the "holding your Heart" rule has to be changed for this one) -- if the Servitor agrees. What if those Superiors who would be inclined to work it this way made it a condition -- you must "voluntarily" (1) accept a Geas/6 ("Don't go Renegade/Outcast this year") in return for Earth assignments? (More a demonic tactic than angelic, admitted... at least in Bright campaigns.) Going Renegade/Outcast just became a big act of Will, didn't it? (2) - -- Chuckg (1) In much the same way that the American IRS collects taxes via a "voluntary" payment system -- you can voluntarily file your tax returns on time, or you can suffer the unpleasant legal consequences of not doing so. Your choice. (2) Rulebooks temporarily not available, and the ol' memory is a bit fuzzy re: Geasa. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:36:04 -0600 From: toadpooka@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Eden Ban/Heartless On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:22:05 +0000 "Jonathan Walton" writes: > How did Lilith break the Fallen out of Hell? Hell was a Celestial > prison cut off from Heaven and originally had no tethers until Lilith > created the first tether to Freedom. Actually, The Fallen got out of Hell by way of the Marches, not by way of an Infernal Tether (GMG, 92). From Whom It May Concern, Rich Ranallo "Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." - -Prof. Michio Kaku ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:38:55 -0600 From: toadpooka@juno.com Subject: IN> I Need an Ethereal I need information on a mythological or otherwise good Ethereal being that might have/grant the ability to see into the future. I don't really care what mythology he/she/it is from, but I need a decent adversary for my group. From Whom It May Concern, Rich Ranallo "Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." - -Prof. Michio Kaku ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:43:08 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal >I need information on a mythological or otherwise good Ethereal being >that might have/grant the ability to see into the future. I don't really >care what mythology he/she/it is from, but I need a decent adversary for >my group. Well there is my name sake, The Cassandra, who was about in greek times, but the thing with her is that no body heeded her warnings, like pompei (i think it was her in that situation). It wont take long to find the legend associated with her if you put in cassandra in to google or greek cassandra in to any search engine really. Hope thats a help. Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:46:41 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal In Greek mythology, Apollo is the god of prophesy (as well as the sun, poetry, healing, music, and archery). In Norse mythology, Odin fulfills a similar role (along with rulership, death, magic, poetry, madness, war, and anything else the Norse value). In both Greek mythology and Norse, there are three women who spin out people's fates (called the Fates in Greek and the Norns in Norse). Thoth is the god of learning and magic in Egyptian mythology, and his Greek counterpart is Hermes, god of communication and crossroads. Both might grant it. So might Papa Legbah, the Voudoun loah of the crossroads and magic. I hope that helps. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: toadpooka@juno.com >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: IN> I Need an Ethereal >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:38:55 -0600 > >I need information on a mythological or otherwise good Ethereal being >that might have/grant the ability to see into the future. I don't really >care what mythology he/she/it is from, but I need a decent adversary for >my group. > >From Whom It May Concern, >Rich Ranallo > >"Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." >-Prof. Michio Kaku _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:47:36 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal >Well there is my name sake, The Cassandra, who was about in greek times, >but >the thing with her is that no body heeded her warnings, like pompei (i >think >it was her in that situation). > She was at Troy, that's the principle legend about her. I'm not sure about Pompei. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:48:52 -0700 From: Timothy Groth Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Apollo was a god of prophesy if I remember correctly. This is in addition to his station as a sun god. I believe the oracle at Delphi was his, but this might be late night misremembering. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:52:49 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Yeah, he took Delphi from the monstrous serpent Python (probably Python originally was the god of an earlier, earth-based faith). In In Nomine, perhaps Python was a Balseraph, corrupting the people of Delphi with false prophesies. > >Apollo was a god of prophesy if I remember correctly. This is in >addition to his station as a sun god. I believe the oracle at Delphi >was his, but this might be late night misremembering. >-- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:55:34 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal >She was at Troy, that's the principle legend about her. I'm not sure about >Pompei. Ah that was the one. Thats what i get for watching -up pompei- to often. Heres some more stuff on The Cassandra http://list.gatech.edu/archives/LCC2401D/old/0101.html http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa100300a.ht Greek prophetess, helper of man also inflaming men with love (Greek). Cassandra was (in Greek mythology) the daughter of Priam and Hecuba, the prophetic Trojan princess. Apollo loved her but she declined him. Apollo cursed her so that noone would believe her and her prophecy of destruction of Troy Prophet in Troy during the Trojan War whom nobody believed. Now we refer to a Cassandra as anybody who predicts bad news. With a name like mine, i dont stand a chance in life, yay. Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:00:31 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal >Yeah, he took Delphi from the monstrous serpent Python (probably Python >originally was the god of an earlier, earth-based faith). > >In In Nomine, perhaps Python was a Balseraph, corrupting the people of >Delphi with false prophesies. I think i recall various -pagan- deities reffered to as Python Set. So he might well be a Soldier or High level Roled celestial. Hmm, im whittering, time for coffee. Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:02:34 -0600 From: toadpooka@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Ye Gods! I ask a question and get five replies in less than 20 minutes in the wee hours of a weekday morning! Jim Burzelic, if you're listening, I think you might be right; this IS the coolest list out there. Thanks, everyone; I think I'm gonna go with Thoth/Hermes, mainly 'cos I've got a special fondness for Egyptian mythology, and he becomes a nice setup for the big baddie, the new Angel of Light. From Whom It May Concern, Rich Ranallo "Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." - -Prof. Michio Kaku ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:08:36 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Well if you use thoth/hermes be prepared for a sorcerer based game. Thoth/Hermes was the principle incitement of the magic in the world. Hermes trimagestus was one of the well educated blokes with a good amount of books and odd thinking. Said oddthinking brought about the hermetic arts as we know them today, which inturn brought about the templars and masons and a whole slew of mystery cults. Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff >From: toadpooka@juno.com >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:02:34 -0600 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [199.170.88.15] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBDCF449600A840043792C7AA580F6AE80; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:02:17 -0800 >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id >DAA27446for in_nomine-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:02:08 -0600 >Received: from m14.jersey.juno.com (m14.jersey.juno.com [64.136.16.77])by >lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27443for >; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:02:05 -0600 >Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for ><"Ef+k8jXP/x08NrT6mdTLFtQBx+IrY+0CYztnfBefD1tfRiwciPRsdg=="> >Received: (from toadpooka@juno.com) by m14.jersey.juno.com (jqueuemail) id >GMECFGJR; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 04:01:15 EST >From owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:04:18 -0800 >Message-ID: <20011129.030235.216.4.toadpooka@juno.com> >X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 >X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2,4,7-12 >Sender: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Precedence: bulk > >Ye Gods! >I ask a question and get five replies in less than 20 minutes in the wee >hours of a weekday morning! >Jim Burzelic, if you're listening, I think you might be right; this IS >the coolest list out there. >Thanks, everyone; I think I'm gonna go with Thoth/Hermes, mainly 'cos >I've got a special fondness for Egyptian mythology, and he becomes a nice >setup for the big baddie, the new Angel of Light. > >From Whom It May Concern, >Rich Ranallo > >"Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." >-Prof. Michio Kaku _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:10:30 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Cool. And the cool thing about Thoth, is that according to legend, he created Sorcery. Actually, according to legend, Thoth in the identity of Hermes Trismegistus (Hermes "Thrice-Great," for he was the greatest king, priest, and philosopher) reigned as a king of Egypt and wrote books on every possible subject, including the most powerful mystic tome ever. If this was true, it would make Thoth an Ethereal capable of using Sorcery. An interesting character to say the least (and as a baboon with a feathered rump, he was the god of the moon). - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: toadpooka@juno.com >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:02:34 -0600 > >Ye Gods! >I ask a question and get five replies in less than 20 minutes in the wee >hours of a weekday morning! >Jim Burzelic, if you're listening, I think you might be right; this IS >the coolest list out there. >Thanks, everyone; I think I'm gonna go with Thoth/Hermes, mainly 'cos >I've got a special fondness for Egyptian mythology, and he becomes a nice >setup for the big baddie, the new Angel of Light. > >From Whom It May Concern, >Rich Ranallo > >"Rock and Roll will be the new planetary culture, believe it or not." >-Prof. Michio Kaku _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:10:52 +0000 From: "Jonathan Walton" Subject: IN> Wish List Hey all, This is something I've been slowly compiling over the last few months, as I've had a chance to get away from running my face-to-face game (being in Beijing, which has even less In Nomine players than North Carolina) and get over my complete love of IN to look at the problems that exist within the game itself. Note that the following is completely based on my own experience and that YMMV. Some of what's listed here became "house rules" in my face-to-face game, and the rest may quickly follow (whenever I get a chance to run one again). Originally, this wasn't intended to be shared, but the talk about the Eden Ban and playing in a Heartless world made me dig it out and rework it. I'd love to have comments on it, if anyone else wants to tackle some of the big issues. Still, there are a bunch of places where I just come out and say "I don't like that," and those should be taken literally. I'm not suggesting that no one else should like those pieces, or that somehow I should mandate what is canon, I'm just saying that I don't like certain things. That said ... Jonathan's Wish List for IN (2nd Ed?) Aims 1. In Nomine is not GURPS. Taken from Beth, actually, but I think the point needs to be pushed further. Just because IN is published by SJGames doesn't mean that it needs a complicated point-based system for calculating stuff. Personally, I'm not fond of the way IN determines the cost of Artifacts, Vessels, Roles, or Servants, and boy do I hate CD Tables and the Disturbance rules. All of this needs to be streamlined. 2. Simplify. A variation on Beth's #2 rule, "Keep in IN simple." After the APG and IPG, sometimes it's hard for me to know every detail of what Resonances can and can't do. I don't like that. I also hope no one cringes when I say that I despise most of the Liber Canticorum. You don't know how many times I've had players surprise me with obscure (or even fairly common) Songs that I had no clue existed. No, it's not that I can't deal with it, it's just annoying, frankly. Manipulating the Symphony shouldn't be like casting spells, which is what it seems to have turned into. Definitely needs to be more abstract and flexible. Expand the scope but simplify the mechanics. 3. No Restrictions. These are Celestials we are talking about here, cosmic beings far beyond what we can even imagine. Then why is it that I often feel like the various Choirs and Bands are just races in a standard fantasy campaign? Why can their abilities be neatly listed and defined? Shouldn't Celestials (and Ethereals) be given something of a wider range of ways in which to operate? 4. Dynamism, Excitement. Sure, Celestials are thousands of years old, but this is _the_ War we're talking about here and it has cosmic importance. It's the only game in town. I want to feel the emotional significance of the War, feel the gains and losses, and overall I want some idea of movement. The War is, after all, ultimately leading up to the Final Conflict (not the Rev Cycle, please) and, even though that day may still be far off, some motion should be apparent. 5. Confront this Religion Thing. Quit pussy-footing around religion. Of all the topics discussed in all the IN books put together, belief and spirituality have got to be the least talked about. Sure, David took a hand at tackling _human_ spirituality in the GMG, but we still have next to no information about what kinds of beliefs Celestials have (and they're the main character types). Saying they have "varying" spiritual beliefs is the equivalent of saying nothing at all. The different Choirs have "varying" abilities, but we sure as hell need more information than that. In S4, we finally got some notes about what Muslim angels take as Truth and what things they brush aside, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. Discussions of all manners of Celestial philosophy and thought would be extremely nice. 6. Symphony, Symphony, Symphony. The last time that an IN book talked significantly about the Symphony? If it's the basis of all creation, if it's what the War is about, shouldn't it be fairly significant? Celestials manipulate the Symphony all the time with Songs, Resonances, spending essence, moving between Realms, etc. Why then is Disturbance the only influence it seems to have on the game? 7. Multi-Genre, Multi-Time, Multi-Place. As the Mailing List reflects well, a good many IN GMs like heresy, and they like it a lot. Sure, we may not be reflective of the IN community as a whole, but it's safe to assume that there are a good many people twisting canon until it's strained. Though Aim #1 should be carefully kept in mind ("IN is not GURPS!"), there should be some more built-in maneuvering room. Feel 1. Awe. This is a game about cosmic beings, some of whom have existed from the dawn of time. Angels, Archangels, Demons, Demon Princes, all supernatural creatures should be somewhat frightening and awesome to the mortals, and in comparison to the Corporeal world. This is not the fear and dark angst of the World of Darkness; this is the ineffable. 2. Celestials don't think like humans. "They are very much like us?" Bull. Celestials are older than time itself and exist on a level that is very difficult for humans to fathom. Maybe Mercurians are "very much like us;" maybe Kyriotates and Lilim and Malakim could be said to be "somewhat like us;" but when you get up past the Habbalah and Elohim, Celestials are most definitely NOT like us. All of the above should be magnified exponentially when dealing with Word-Bound, especially Superiors. Rules 1. No Check Digit Tables/Simplify Resonances 2. Simplify Disturbance Rules 3. Abstractify Songs = Greater numbers and greater essence spent increase what you can do, working within certain reference points: the type of Song you bought and what you decided to call it. The GM/Player's call on whether the Song is Corporeal, Ethereal, or Celestial, depending on what it affects. 4. Simplify Calculating Roles = Roles can cost one, two, or more points per level, depending on the difficulty, status, and resources of the role. Roll against Role for related skills, masking disturbance, and anything else. 5. Simplify Calculating Artifacts = Artifacts cost X points per level, depending on the power and rarity. Powers, damage, embedded Songs, etc, are all based on the level of the artifact. 6. Simplify Calculating Vessel Stuff = (Vessel + CF x Strength = Hits) rule is too strange, come up with something that works but is more sensible and easier to learn. Ditch Charisma (why a part of Vessels?). 7. Forces = Change maximum (from 18 to ?). Ditch Word-Forces (sorry David, but I find that they complicate the game by quantifying something best left abstract). 8. Ditch Servants. This kind of thing should be roleplayed and not quantified. 9. Ditch Experience System for Celestials and Ethereals (just for mortals). Rewards are totally based on the amount of power your Superior is willing to invest in you, explains why being an Outcast or Renegade is so scary (no advancement, no healing). Also explains why there are so few Grigori left. Celestials don't learn skills the way humans do. They're already thousands of years old and "know" things on a completely different level. 10. Angel and Demon-ness. All Celestials have the ability to manifest their nature corporeally in a kind of Numinuous Corpus: Angel/Demon, providing the appropriate wings, claws, halos, glowing aura, surrounded by flames, etc. Maybe an ability to Corporeally or Celestially manifest aspects of your Word. You only start out with basic abilities of Angel/Demon-Ness and have to raise it with points. 11. "Eden Ban." No moving between planes when not at a tether (increases their importance dramatically and explains why they even exist in the first place), means that the remaining Ethereals fight like nothing else to hold onto the ones they've got (though Ethereal tethers might form a bit easier than Divine or Infernal ones?) 12. No hearts? This is a new addition based on ideas from the mailing list. Do they really serve a purpose that's worth the extra complication (since they deviate from standard myth a great deal)? If you can only advance (i.e. get "experience" points) through a connection with a Superior, becoming an Outcast or Renegade already has a strong deterrent. Material 1. Include the Grigori 2. Include all living Superiors (Khalid, Chris, Alaemon, etc.) 3. Organize, Organize, Organize 4. New fiction that actually reflects the reality of the game 5. Get Chris Shy and Ramon Perez to be the official IN artists (silly final comment) And that's what I've got right now. It's still obviously a work-in-progress, and I could end up changing my mind about Hearts or even Word-Forces. Some of it needs to be fleshed out more too (and it will be when I actually put it to use), but I didn't want to piss of the resident Demon Princess (look, 9K!). Thoughts? Later. Jonathan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:18:52 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Beven Was: ReI Need an Ethereal Oh My God. Bevans in my head. EEEEEEEPPPPPPPP Great minds think alike. Either that or we just know what follows on from what in various mystery traditions and how to translate it in to IN. :) Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:24:15 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Those are some pretty good points, and I definetly agree with most of them. Here's what I'd add. 1. In pictures of Superiors, make them a little more ethnically diverse. Gabriel and Khalid are the only ones that I can think of that don't like White. I dunno, I'd just prefer if we saw some Japanese, Indian, or Black superiors. Sp 1 does mention that David's favorite vessel is Black, though that's never shown, and I still think Eli should be Black. 2. In pictures of angels, show them in seperate choirs, not just people with wings (though obviously non-Mercurians). When you do show Cherubim, make them look a little less like cartoon animals. 3. Make prophets, saints, and sorcerers part of the core rules (prophets and saints would only require a paragraph apiece, sorcerers would take a little more work, so they're probably an idle dream). 4. Don't make sorcery as a whole universally looked down upon. I think that, say, Eli wouldn't mind sorcery at all (how did his world-view go? "The world is chaos shaped by will"? Sounds like a sorcerer's creed), just how it's frequently utilized. Make the sorcery issue more complex (views of certain archangels like Dominic and Laurence versus the views of people like Eli and Blandine). - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: "Jonathan Walton" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: IN> Wish List >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:10:52 +0000 > >Hey all, > >This is something I've been slowly compiling over the last few months, as >I've had a chance to get away from running my face-to-face game (being in >Beijing, which has even less In Nomine players than North Carolina) and get >over my complete love of IN to look at the problems that exist within the >game itself. Note that the following is completely based on my own >experience and that YMMV. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:30:29 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Beven Was: ReI Need an Ethereal Hey, well, magic and mysticism (especially Abrahamic stuff like Hermetica and Kabbalah) are my big interests, so whenever someone mentions prophesy, magic, or say, Thoth, I'm all over it. Actually, I think In Nomine's got one of the coolest magic systems (in the sorcery rules)(and yes, I will continue to call it "magic," because it is, IN's distinction is one of the weirder background elements). Though if I ever started GMing it, sorcery would be put on a little more positive spin (not evil, or even inherently selfish, just Hell's trying to corner the market on it, and the more hard-nosed AAs like Dominic and Laurence blacken its name; bad PR in Heaven). - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: "cassandra benner" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: IN> Beven Was: ReI Need an Ethereal >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:18:52 +0000 > >Oh My God. >Bevans in my head. >EEEEEEEPPPPPPPP > >Great minds think alike. >Either that or we just know what follows on from what in various mystery >traditions and how to translate it in to IN. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:15:31 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > >4. Don't make sorcery as a whole universally looked down upon. Disagree. The way sorcery is laid out in IN is one of the really brave design decisions that Derek made (IMO) and has a lot of flavour. And it's interesting, specifically game related flavour that makes players stop and think. Sorcery involves people summoning spirits and demons, you can't do it without risking your immortal soul -- that's really very cool, when you think about it. You want to play "everyone is right?" go take a look at WW, because that's their premise. IN isn't like that. It has some absolutes, and I think they're very important to the feel of the game. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 ********************************