in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 29 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2463 In this digest: Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) IN> Magic in In Nomine Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:40:11 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Well, it's a matter of taste anyway. As it's background flavor, it's pretty easy to change in individual campaigns. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: "Jo Hart" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:15:31 +0000 > >Disagree. The way sorcery is laid out in IN is one of the really brave >design decisions that Derek made (IMO) and has a lot of flavour. And it's >interesting, specifically game related flavour that makes players stop and >think. Sorcery involves people summoning spirits and demons, you can't do >it >without risking your immortal soul -- that's really very cool, when you >think about it. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:21:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> I Need an Ethereal cassandra benner wrote: > Well there is my name sake, The Cassandra, who was about in greek > times, but the thing with her is that no body heeded her warnings, > like pompei (i think it was her in that situation). The destruction of Pompeii was an historical, in 79 AD, by which time Cassandra of Troy was already a figure of ancient myth. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:11:18 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Jonathan Walton said unto us (Although Cameron took it upon himself to snip things away): > Jonathan's Wish List for IN (2nd Ed?) > > 1. In Nomine is not GURPS. Amen. Although I like the idea of GURPS, In Nomine should be far more streamlined. > A variation on Beth's #2 rule, "Keep in IN simple." After the APG and IPG, > sometimes it's hard for me to know every detail of what Resonances can and > can't do. Personally, I wasn't fond of the more advanced uses of Resonances. The increased check digit made it pretty useless in my eyes. > Definitely needs to be more abstract and flexible. Expand the scope > but simplify the mechanics. Hmm...But without a listing of Songs, how do you make it more expansive? I think I am missing something here. > The War is, after all, ultimately leading up to the Final Conflict (not the > Rev Cycle, please) and, even though that day may still be far off, some motion > should be apparent. Good point, although I am working on running my players through Rev Cycle with a LOT of changes. I'd say more, but I know Amanda would read it. -:-) > Saying they have "varying" spiritual beliefs is the equivalent of saying > nothing at all. On this I disagree with you. I like the idea that the spirituality aspect is left open to interpretation. Angels and Demons aren't fighting over who is praying correctly. > Discussions of all manners of Celestial philosophy and thought would be > extremely nice. And about as thick as your average encyclopedia. I'll pass on that. > This is not the fear and dark angst of the World of Darkness; this is the > ineffable. I'm sorry...I have to say it. "What's an angst?" "It's a cross with a loopy thing on top. My people are nuts about them." > Celestials are older than time itself and exist on a level that is very > difficult for humans to fathom. Perhaps, but the average player character isn't that old. > All of the above should be magnified exponentially when dealing with > Word-Bound, especially Superiors. Which is a great idea, but the problem is that the people running them *are* human. > Rules > > 1. No Check Digit Tables/Simplify Resonances Agreed > 2. Simplify Disturbance Rules Agreed, but with a lot more volume. > 3. Abstractify Songs = Greater numbers and greater essence spent > increase what you can do, working within certain reference points: the type > of Song you bought and what you decided to call it. The GM/Player's call on > whether the Song is Corporeal, Ethereal, or Celestial, depending on what it > affects. But you still need a concrete list of Songs and what it's possible for them to acheive. > 7. Forces = Change maximum (from 18 to ?). Ditch Word-Forces (sorry > David, but I find that they complicate the game by quantifying something > best left abstract). I look at it this way...if your players are contemplating taking on an 18 Force opponent (Or any Superior) and it looks like the odds are in their favor, it's time to start a new campaign. > Celestials don't learn skills the way humans do. They're already thousands of > years old and "know" things on a completely different level. And again I say that the average PC isn't that old. I think learning skills makes sense. > You only start out with basic abilities of Angel/Demon-Ness and have to raise > it with points. Hmm...Might make keeping the War secret, but not a bad idea. > 11. "Eden Ban." No moving between planes when not at a tether (increases > their importance dramatically and explains why they even exist in the first > place), means that the remaining Ethereals fight like nothing else to hold > onto the ones they've got (though Ethereal tethers might form a bit easier > than Divine or Infernal ones?) Interesting idea on this one. Makes things more challenging for the players. > 1. Include the Grigori oooh! Nice notion! > 2. Include all living Superiors (Khalid, Chris, Alaemon, etc.) Yes^3 > 3. Organize, Organize, Organize Agreed ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:27:37 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Bevan Thomas wrote: > 3. Make prophets, saints, and sorcerers part of the core rules (prophets and> saints would only require a paragraph apiece, sorcerers would take a little> more work, so they're probably an idle dream). They're also supposed to be rare, and they aren't a central part of the game (unless you're playing a human campaign, in which case you need the CPG. :)) > 4. Don't make sorcery as a whole universally looked down upon. That IS part of the setting. "Magic" is not a morally neutral activity, as it is in a standard fantasy setting. "Magic" is specifically a selfish act that almost invariably draws on infernal powers, and it's intended to be very, very hard to perform it in a non-corrupting fashion. > I think that,> say, Eli wouldn't mind sorcery at all (how did his world-view go? "The world> is chaos shaped by will"? Sounds like a sorcerer's creed), That is very much NOT Eli's world-view. He says the world is CREATION (which is very nearly the opposite of chaos), will against ENTROPY. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:34:21 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Jo Hart wrote: > Disagree. The way sorcery is laid out in IN is one of the really brave > design decisions that Derek made (IMO) and has a lot of flavour. And it's> interesting, specifically game related flavour that makes players stop and> think. Sorcery involves people summoning spirits and demons, you can't do it> without risking your immortal soul -- that's really very cool, when you> think about it. > > You want to play "everyone is right?" go take a look at WW, because that's> their premise. IN isn't like that. It has some absolutes, and I think> they're very important to the feel of the game. Thank you. That's exactly the attitude I tried to preserve in the CPG. I don't WANT sorcery to become just another tool for mortals to acquire special powers. In In Nomine, the powers you wield have consequences in themselves, not merely in HOW you use them. In Nomine NEEDS more moral absolutes, but unfortunately, most fans seem to like throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the setting (if I see one more "Star Trek In Nomine" post my eyes are going to start bleeding), as long as no moral judgments are made. If I had my way, ethereal spirits and pagans would be even more marginalized in the official setting. (If you want pagan gods to be on the same footing as Yahweh, and angels and demons to be just another kind of spirit, then why are you playing In Nomine?) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:58:30 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >From: David Edelstein >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >(If you want pagan gods to be on the same footing as >Yahweh, and angels and demons to be just another kind of spirit, then >why are you playing In Nomine?) > *g* Is this a taster for the EPG? jo (Obviously, I agree with you or else I wouldn't have made the comment, and I really like what you did with the CPG.) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:09:05 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Jo Hart wrote: > *g* Is this a taster for the EPG? Hard to say, since it was written by two people with very different ideas about ethereals, and there's still no editor in sight... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:19:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Wish List David Edelstein wrote: > If I had my way, > ethereal spirits and pagans would be even more marginalized in the > official setting. (If you want pagan gods to be on the same footing as > Yahweh, and angels and demons to be just another kind of spirit, then > why are you playing In Nomine?) Hear, hear. RPGs spring from literature (imposed, initially, on a background of war-gaming). Generic fantasy RPGs spring from modern fantasy -- principally Tolkien, Moorcock, and Vance. SF RPGs spring from SF, etc. IN springs from religious literature. Monotheistic religion. For good or ill (and that is hotly debated), monotheisms are fiercely concerned about Truth. The best way to get the distinctly monotheistic religious flavor in your game is to use David's GM Guide section "In Nomine by the Book" and play a specifically Christian, Jewish, or Moslem game. Second best is to play a generically monotheist game, since the three major monotheisms have a huge about of theology and folklore in common. The more prominence given to paganism in IN, except as a mistake or a lie, the more you dilute the specific flavor, the more you blunt the point, of a game about monotheism. It ISN'T just the same as a random bit of genre-crossing. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:20:34 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List That wasn't my intention. It was more a desire to combine my interests in Abrahamic mysticism with In Nomine, and such people as Hermetics and Kabbalists certainly are not corrupted and selfish entities. However, as I mentioned before, I am the minority, and it is an easy thing to change anyway. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: David Edelstein >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:34:21 -0600 I >don't WANT sorcery to become just another tool for mortals to acquire >special powers. In In Nomine, the powers you wield have consequences in >themselves, not merely in HOW you use them. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:32:27 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List From: "Bevan Thomas" > > Sp 1 does mention that David's favorite vessel is Black, though > that's never shown, and I still think Eli should be Black. Am I the only one who thinks the picture of Eli in the main book portrays him as a black man? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:41:27 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > That wasn't my intention. It was more a desire to combine my interests in > Abrahamic mysticism with In Nomine, and such people as Hermetics and > Kabbalists certainly are not corrupted and selfish entities. If they are good guys, they are Soldiers of God who somehow acquired songs from a Book of Magic McGuffins. Tada! Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:44:41 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Bevan Thomas wrote: > That wasn't my intention. It was more a desire to combine my interests in> Abrahamic mysticism with In Nomine, and such people as Hermetics and > Kabbalists certainly are not corrupted and selfish entities. In the real world, maybe not. I'm talking about the IN setting. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:42:35 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Actually, I agree with you. He does look like he was intended to be Black (the whole Rastaffarian look), and that the colorist made a technical error. As he is rarely pictured (and nevermore in color), this has never been proven either way. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: "Prodigal" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:32:27 -0600 > > >Am I the only one who thinks the picture of Eli in the main book portrays >him as a black man? > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:57:29 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >That wasn't my intention. It was more a desire to combine my interests in >Abrahamic mysticism with In Nomine, and such people as Hermetics and >Kabbalists certainly are not corrupted and selfish entities. You might want to take a look at the Kabbalah source for Ars Magica (Kabbalah: Mythic Judaism), this has some fairly cool ideas in it and most could easily be adapted to IN. Ashley. Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:06:27 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) > He does look like he was intended to be Black (the whole Rastaffarian look), > and that the colorist made a technical error. Am I the only one who truly doesn't care what gender/race/color, etc a Superior is going to show up as or how they are portrayed in the book? I would think that by their very natures, they are going to manifest in a way that is appropriate for the location. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:06:37 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List From: "Earl Wajenberg" > > The more prominence given to paganism in IN, except as a mistake > or a lie, the more you dilute the specific flavor, the more you > blunt the point, of a game about monotheism. My personal take on the ethereals of IN is that they're essentially parasites - each one starts as an idea that manages to gain an existence at least partially independant from its original creator, and which gains strength through the hopes and dreams of mortals. This is why Uriel felt that he had to start his crusade against them - they were gaining enough strength from their worshippers' belief that they were becoming too powerful a third front in the war. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:17:49 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List From: "Bevan Thomas" > Actually, I agree with you. He does look like he was intended to be Black > (the whole Rastaffarian look), and that the colorist made a technical error. I don't agree that it was an error. Then again, I've known black people who were as light-skinned as the picture of Eli. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:20:21 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List I read the review for it on Pyramid, and it looks pretty cool. Ars Magic's supplements are generally pretty accurate, I might pick it up if I see it around. Thanks - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: Omentide >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:57:29 +0000 > > >You might want to take a look at the Kabbalah source for Ars Magica >(Kabbalah: Mythic Judaism), this has some fairly cool ideas in it and most >could easily be adapted to IN. > >Ashley. > > >Ashley >MIB 6660 > >What do you want? > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:21:39 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) Well, it's only a minor quibble really. Just one of those things I find mildly irritating (kinda like all the angels looking like Mercurians), but has really nothing to do with the game itself. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: Cameron McCurry >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:06:27 -0500 > > Am I the only one who truly doesn't care what gender/race/color, etc a >Superior is going to show up as or how they are portrayed in the book? I >would >think that by their very natures, they are going to manifest in a way that >is >appropriate for the location. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:25:19 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Parasites seems a little too harsh a word to me. Though they are dependent on humans and do take Essence from them, they do give things in return (a cohesive belief system, spiritual protection and aid, songs and rites, etc.). It is argueable whether what the Ethereals give is anywhere near what they gain, but it is still a two-way street. A parasite takes, he never gives (for then he is no longer a parasite). - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: "Prodigal" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:06:37 -0600 > > >My personal take on the ethereals of IN is that they're essentially >parasites - each one starts as an idea that manages to gain an existence at >least partially independant from its original creator, and which gains >strength through the hopes and dreams of mortals. This is why Uriel felt >that he had to start his crusade against them - they were gaining enough >strength from their worshippers' belief that they were becoming too >powerful >a third front in the war. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:31:20 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) > Well, it's only a minor quibble really. True, but I've seen minor quibbles in this list go for a week or more. I think the best answer to "What does the Superior look like?" is "Yes." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:32:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Superior Appearance (Formerly Wish List) My own favorite Superior "illustrations" are the semi-abstract ones, like the ones for Marc and Malphas and Jordi. These are spirits, after all, who whip up vessels arbitrarily, for themselves and their servants. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:40:36 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) > Parasites seems a little too harsh a word to me. Though they are dependent > on humans and do take Essence from them, they do give things in return (a > cohesive belief system, spiritual protection and aid, songs and rites, > etc.). > > It is argueable whether what the Ethereals give is anywhere near what they > gain, but it is still a two-way street. A parasite takes, he never gives > (for then he is no longer a parasite). > > -Bevan This argument could be used to defend the relationship between Hell and Sorcerers. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:42:00 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >From: "Bevan Thomas" >Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:25:19 -0800 [snip] >It is argueable whether what the Ethereals give is anywhere near what they >gain, but it is still a two-way street. A parasite takes, he never gives >(for then he is no longer a parasite). Actually, I'd always thought that the more highly evolved parasites were the ones that took care to keep their hosts healthy and productive. A /symbiote/ relationship is, IIRC, an /even/ swap... neither can survive without the other. This is not true of the ethereal/worshipper dynamic... although the mortal worshippers may be better off with their ethereal patron than without him, they could live without it. OTOH, if the ethereal loses all his mortal worshippers, he's dead. Hence 'parasite' -- even if he gives back some, he's still getting more than he gives. More to the point, he'll die without the getting. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:42:37 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) From: "Bevan Thomas" > Parasites seems a little too harsh a word to me. Though they are dependent > on humans and do take Essence from them, they do give things in return (a > cohesive belief system, spiritual protection and aid, songs and rites, > etc.). Of course they give things back in return for the essence that keeps them alive, but they do it out of enlightened self-interest rather than true generosity. Everything they give, they give because it makes their continued existence that much more assured. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:38:26 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) I'm not saying that the Ethereals are not working out of self-interest, I'm merely suggesting that parasite is an inexact word for them. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" >From: "Prodigal" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:42:37 -0600 > > >Of course they give things back in return for the essence that keeps them >alive, but they do it out of enlightened self-interest rather than true >generosity. Everything they give, they give because it makes their >continued >existence that much more assured. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:47:16 -0500 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Charles Glasgow wrote: > although the mortal worshippers may be better off with their ethereal patron > than without him, they could live without it. OTOH, if the ethereal loses > all his mortal worshippers, he's dead. Has it been established in our pre-EPG canon that ethereals *die* without a single worshipper? It's given that since more worshippers means more power, less worshippers means less power, but I can't recall at the moment no worship negating existence. I can think of many ways to handle it in my own game[1], but as many have stated it before, I'm curious to know what the mainline is ere I trot off to the fringes. Any help canon savants? [1] Yes: no worship, no life. No: no worship, wispy half existence in the ethereal realm. Maybe: depends on ethereal's origin, followed up by defining a variety of origins for ethereals. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:57:14 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) From: "Bevan Thomas" > I'm not saying that the Ethereals are not working out of self-interest, I'm > merely suggesting that parasite is an inexact word for them. If ethereals could survive without having to draw essence from humans, then it would be inexact. But since without essence from humans, ethereals fade and eventually die, it's spot-on. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:48:20 -0800 From: "Brian Rogers" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prodigal" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 12:57 PM Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) > From: "Bevan Thomas" > > > I'm not saying that the Ethereals are not working out of self-interest, > I'm > > merely suggesting that parasite is an inexact word for them. > > If ethereals could survive without having to draw essence from humans, then > it would be inexact. But since without essence from humans, ethereals fade > and eventually die, it's spot-on. > Hang on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Ethereals get a single point of "just-being-alive" Essence every day, just like Celestials and humans and everything else? I believe they regenerate at midnight. I think an Ethereal with no worshippers could eke along for a long time, provided he kept quiet and didn't get into fights. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:44:53 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Magic in In Nomine I have to agree with personally the portrayal of Magic in In Nomine is one of it's more unique flavors and while I appreciate Gabriel's "fire sorcerers" and Laurence's excorcists (though I prefer a song of excorcism or something along those lines to normal sorcery) I rather like the idea of sorcery in In Nomine being something that if not innately evil is still wrong on some very real levels. There's a great article at http://www.rpg.net regarding the role of Wizards in history and it extensively studies the link between clerical magic (miracle) and sorcerous magic (effectively mystical science). One of the most interesting things about his article was that while a cleric is content to recieve relevations from God directly (or the gods) a wizard seems this sort of information and power of his own accord. Take even Alchemy of the Medieval times you effectively have a person invoking the power of angels and summoning them to their service at the whitest.... If it is a mere "entreatment" it's little different than prayer but if it is expected and even COMMANDED then it becomes an act of incredible hubris and attempt to usurp the power of God himself. In this age of modern science the Magi is not necessarily a figure so titanically scary and entreating damnation as he might have been in Mediveal times (otherwise we never would have demons as a player character option and Jack Chick In Nomine would be hardly humorous) but in a way demons as described by In Nomine ARE in a manner of speaking all sorcerors. What in fact is Sorcery by In Nomine standards but deliberately being taught knowledge of the Symphony which allows a person to impose his own will on the Symphony just as surely as a demon does? The idea of Wizards being the natural brother to demons and ethereals fits In Nomine and it's themes quite well because in the world created by Steve jackson games there is no doubt (in standard interpretations) that there is a Creator, he is Good, and service to the majority of the divine religions will bring you enlightment as to the universe's true nature as well as save your soul from the pits of Hell. While, sorcery, condemned by most of those very same divine religions will provide you a modicrum of power in the material world but merely dangles you along with brief control over demons who upon your death in a VERY short time later will have extensive words with your spirit. I think an In Nomine sorcerors book would be good but I like the idea of AT least slight majority (55-60%) of all sorcerers recognizably evil and a good 90% selfish dirtbags. This doesn't reflect my opinion of practicers of traditions and mysticism in the real world but merely that in In Nomine practioners of the "true arts" usually get it handed to them by demons. It makes me wonder about the D&D/Haphitas connection. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:46:52 -0800 (PST) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > > That wasn't my intention. It was more a desire to combine my interests in > > Abrahamic mysticism with In Nomine, and such people as Hermetics and > > Kabbalists certainly are not corrupted and selfish entities. > > If they are good guys, they are Soldiers of God who somehow acquired songs > from a Book of Magic McGuffins. Tada! Or Pagans. Very Cautious Pagans. With a direct line to a strong Ethereal that has managed to stay unaligned with Hell. O. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:41:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Wish List In article , Bevan Thomas wrote: > Well, it's a matter of taste anyway. As it's background flavor, it's > pretty easy to change in individual campaigns. I think it's more than a matter of taste. If you do decide to have sorcery be morally neutral, you have a lot of consequences to deal with. Why is Hell promoting sorcery, for starters? Empowering the monkeys isn't high on the average demon's agenda, so what on earth is Hatiphas doing handing out the Sorcery attunement to all and sundry? - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:13:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Burzelic Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > > The War is, after all, ultimately leading up to > the Final Conflict (not the > > Rev Cycle, please) and, even though that day may > still be far off, some motion > > should be apparent. > > Good point, although I am working on running my > players through Rev Cycle > with a LOT of changes. I'd say more, but I know > Amanda would read it. -:-) > Am I the only person in teh world who doesn't want games stories to advance? Well, that was a bit extreme. It seems everybody wants these flowing stories where the setting evolves with each book that extends the game. That makes absolutely no sense to me. That is a story, not what most games are supposed to be. These are supposed to be OUR stories using an established setting and/or conflict. Even if you advance a settings plot slightly each time, the only way to see progression, truly, is through change. When you start changing things, previous information becomes moot. I realize that a lot of games die off if they don't advance their plots and I accept it, I just don't think that needs to be emphasized. It should be a near-last resort. Couple other comments while I'm at it: I disagree about hearts being useless or whatever it was said about them. I think that is one of the neater concepts. It also allows for the GM to advance that story arc in manners that were created by PCs. Example: Your PC is attempting to save the president from assassination. You dive in front of the bullet, saving the target but dying yourself. Let's say your Trauma lasts twenty years. Bam, you come out of it and now you have to catch up not only on the past twenty years but now there's all sorts of possiblity: The president may have passed insane laws suppressing the people and making life worse, now deal with the fact YOU saved him which in turn spawned that crusade. Or maybe because you saved him the last twenty years have been way better because of it. I realize that this isn't very friendly to groups where only a few die and the rest live. But you can play a character in the meantime if it's a slow time advancing game or just fast-forward. Celestials don't age, so twenty years should be a drop in the bucket. I do agree that Tethers should be more important, but i don't thnk that ascension and descension to and from the Celestial plane should be forbidden, just expensive, it should cost a significant amount of Essence and the Will check to ascend should also count for descending (unless at a Tether). Otherwise, I'm all for streamlining rules. Jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:26:57 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Why is Hell promoting sorcery, for starters? Empowering the monkeys isn't >high on the average demon's agenda, so what on earth is Hatiphas doing >handing out the Sorcery attunement to all and sundry? > For good or ill, sorcerers are strong-willed, egoists (not necessarily egotists, they simply have a defined sense of self). These people are dangerous. By activity promoting a demonic pact into sorcery, trying to destroy or at least discredit all non-demonic sorcerers, and painting sorcery black enough that the high-ups in Heaven like Dominic and Laurence hunt down all sorcerers, Hell tries to make certain that all sorcerers are working for them. Ethereals are incredibly weak and most angels will smash a sorcerer as soon as soon as look at them, and therefore the only easy source for sorcery is demonic. If all sorcerers are working for demons, then they don't need to worry about some rogue magus or even holy thaumaturge excorcising, binding, or otherwise screwing them over. By trying to promote their brand of sorcery enough, demons try to corner the market on it. Or at least that's my take on it. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:28:47 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > >I think it's more than a matter of taste. If you do decide to have >sorcery be morally neutral, you have a lot of consequences to deal with. >Why is Hell promoting sorcery, for starters? For the record, technology, sex, and the media are not inherently evil, and yet we have demons trying to force it on mortals as much as possible. It's because they want their own demonic brand embedded on the collective minds of the masses and no other. They want hellish technology, not divine. The same applies to sorcery. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:31:27 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > > Definitely needs to be more abstract and flexible. Expand the scope > > but simplify the mechanics. > > Hmm...But without a listing of Songs, how do you make it more >expansive? I >think I am missing something here. Yes, you're not thinking beyond lists of Powers. Take the power system in Mage, for instance. They have 9 Spheres of Influence with which they may affect realtity (what would be the Symphony), in nearly every/any conceivable way. Each Sphere is divided into 5 levels of "control and influence" within that Sphere of Reality. Something similar could be done with Words, I'm sure. > The War is, after all, ultimately leading up to the Final Conflict (not the > > Rev Cycle, please) and, even though that day may still be far off, some >motion > > should be apparent. > > Good point, although I am working on running my players through Rev >Cycle >with a LOT of changes. I'd say more, but I know Amanda would read it. >-:-) > > > Saying they have "varying" spiritual beliefs is the equivalent of saying > > nothing at all. > > On this I disagree with you. I like the idea that the spirituality >aspect >is left open to interpretation. Angels and Demons aren't fighting over who >is >praying correctly. Um, excuse me, but I think a Malakite of Laurence is going to take issue with praying "incorrectly" i.e. to a God other than the Lord. While as a person I believe that all the major world religions lead one in the direction (with the exception of fanatic/fundamentalist anything), I don't think that most of the Superiors are going to see things that way. Maybe some of the younger AA's would, but I doubt the old ones would (with the exception of Eli). > > Discussions of all manners of Celestial philosophy and thought would be > > extremely nice. > > And about as thick as your average encyclopedia. I'll pass on that. Unless it were written as a story. Ever read a World of Darkness book? Half the damn thing is just a bunch of stories - stories that inspire the reader to what to be able to things like the characters in them, and, oh, look, rules for doing so. Everyone has a world-view, and so by living through their eyes the reader has a chance to experience it. > > Celestials are older than time itself and exist on a level that is very > > difficult for humans to fathom. > > Perhaps, but the average player character isn't that old. Then maybe we should all be playing Soldiers. > > All of the above should be magnified exponentially when dealing with > > Word-Bound, especially Superiors. > > Which is a great idea, but the problem is that the people running them >*are* >human. That's what GMing suggestions are for. That's what a chapter on how to run the game is for. Superior should be very willing to punish their Servants (that's what Servitor means - servant) when they muck fup. > > Rules > > > > 1. No Check Digit Tables/Simplify Resonances > > Agreed > > > 2. Simplify Disturbance Rules > > Agreed, but with a lot more volume. > > > 3. Abstractify Songs = Greater numbers and greater essence spent > > increase what you can do, working within certain reference points: the >type > > of Song you bought and what you decided to call it. The GM/Player's >call on > > whether the Song is Corporeal, Ethereal, or Celestial, depending on what >it > > affects. > > But you still need a concrete list of Songs and what it's possible for >them >to acheive. No. No you don't. Here's what I did for a game in which I had Avatars, each of whom representing a differenet aspect of reality (pre-IN days). 1. Sense 2. Affect 3. Effect That's the simple version, but imagine an Angel of Fire being able to create fire (Effect Fire) at will. Makes sense, don't it? Or control Fire (Affect Fire), shape it, move it. Breath Fire (Effect Fire) if you want, scare the pants out of that Demon. Shield yourself from Fire's effects (Affect Fire) or others. Just using Sense Fire would be useful for rooting out someone smoking a cigarette, where the nearest controllable flame is, locate a moving vehicle. Each power has a rating. Sense Fire + Perception. Affect Fire + Will or Precision (GM's whim) Effect Fire + Will or Precision (GM's whim) Quite frankly, I doubt this system would work very well with the CD, since the CD results in characters whose competencies have NOTHING to do with how skilled they are until they surpass autosuccess range. > > 7. Forces = Change maximum (from 18 to ?). Ditch Word-Forces (sorry > > David, but I find that they complicate the game by quantifying something > > best left abstract). > > I look at it this way...if your players are contemplating taking on an >18 >Force opponent (Or any Superior) and it looks like the odds are in their >favor, >it's time to start a new campaign. I tihnk the major problem is more like: Ok, I have ST 12, how much can I lift? What is the upper max? A car? A house? A car and a house? > > Celestials don't learn skills the way humans do. They're already >thousands of > > years old and "know" things on a completely different level. > > And again I say that the average PC isn't that old. I think learning >skills >makes sense. Well, then be prepared to encounted a "young" Demon (only 150 years old) with A LOT OF HIGH SKILLS. > > You only start out with basic abilities of Angel/Demon-Ness and have to >raise > > it with points. > > Hmm...Might make keeping the War secret, but not a bad idea. It's not a secret, the Church has been telling people about the War for centuries, just no one's listening. > > 11. "Eden Ban." No moving between planes when not at a tether >(increases > > their importance dramatically and explains why they even exist in the >first > > place), means that the remaining Ethereals fight like nothing else to >hold > > onto the ones they've got (though Ethereal tethers might form a bit >easier > > than Divine or Infernal ones?) > > Interesting idea on this one. Makes things more challenging for the >players. Gives the GM a way to actually have the PCs fear for their very souls. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2463 ********************************