in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 29 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2464 In this digest: Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List IN> Superiors 1 Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Magic in In Nomine Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:47:14 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Bevan Thomas wrote: > > 3. Make prophets, saints, and sorcerers part of the core rules (prophets >and> saints would only require a paragraph apiece, sorcerers would take a >little> more work, so they're probably an idle dream). > >They're also supposed to be rare, and they aren't a central part of the >game (unless you're playing a human campaign, in which case you need the >CPG. :)) No you don't. You just need a creative GM. > > I think that,> say, Eli wouldn't mind sorcery at all (how did his >world-view go? "The world> is chaos shaped by will"? Sounds like a >sorcerer's creed), > >That is very much NOT Eli's world-view. He says the world is CREATION >(which is very nearly the opposite of chaos), will against ENTROPY. But entropy is creation, too. It creates a space for new things to fill. It creates struggle, which is required for growth. Sounds like Eli isn't very well thought out on that point. Does this mean that if Eli had his way, nothing would ever rot or crumble, that everything would either be static or "improving?" hrm . . . plot idea - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:00:45 +0800 From: " Cameron McCurry" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >>Take the power system in Mage, for instance. If I wanted to do that, I would play Mage and not In Nomine. >>They have 9 Spheres of Influence with which they may affect realtity I think that this could lead to a lot of "discussions" in games about whether or not a Song could acheieve a desired effect. I prefer having a concrete listing of Songs. >>>>Angels and Demons aren't fighting over who is praying correctly. >>Um, excuse me, but I think a Malakite of Laurence is going to take issue with praying "incorrectly" i.e. to a God other than the Lord. And watch the fun as the Jewish Malakite of Michael's slaps the Laurencian around, since Laurence supports Christianity (Specifically Catholicism). To repeat: The War is *NOT* about religion. >>While as a person I believe that all the major world religions lead one in the direction (with the exception of fanatic/fundamentalist anything), I don't think that most of the Superiors are going to see things that way. I have only seen three Superiors mentioned specifically as supporters of a specific organized religion though. >>Unless it were written as a story. Ever read a World of Darkness book? I own one of the Clan books, yes. >>Everyone has a world-view, and so by living through their eyes the reader has a chance to experience it. I prefer taking a few lines of description and using my imagination to figure out what a character's world view is. >>>>Perhaps, but the average player character isn't that old. >>Then maybe we should all be playing Soldiers. If that is what you want, fine. I was making the observation that player characters are generally not that old. >>>>But you still need a concrete list of Songs and what it's possible for them to acheive. >>No. No you don't. o·pin·ion noun A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof In other words, the statements I have made about Songs are my opinion. >>Well, then be prepared to encounted a "young" Demon (only 150 years old) with A LOT OF HIGH SKILLS. I have noticed that if you create a starting level character (Which is what I am focusing on here) with a high amount of skills, they are going to be lacking in other areas. >>It's not a secret, the Church has been telling people about the War for centuries, just no one's listening. It IS a secret though. Angels and Demons do not openly advertise what's going on. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:08:15 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Superiors 1 page 23 Under the Lace Coral Meander "inductees have fed their blood to" Do beings bleed in Heaven?? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:18:49 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >If ethereals could survive without having to draw essence from humans, >then it would be inexact. But since without essence from humans, ethereals >fade and eventually die, it's spot-on. Sure and where precisely do Celestials get their essence from? Milking tortured souls in Hell. Tapping nicely on willing souls in Heaven which has never really been explained. Do these souls have a choice? In Hell certainly not. In Heaven I doubt it, I mean would a mortal soul dare to stand up to an Angel and say no? The economy of Heaven and Hell will not stand up if they exists purely on what comes at dawn or sunset. Do Angels and Demons ask for what they get at dawn and sunset? Do they ask for what they take from humanity and human souls? Are Humans willing providers of essence and by willing I mean 'fully informed' of what they are doing? Does Heaven inform its willing servants that a prayer in a church is going to cost? - No it does not. Strikes me that Heaven and Hell are far bigger parasites. Ultimately they both suck essence from humanity and from human souls for the sole purpose of fighting the war, a war that in which humans are usually nothing but helpless and (ab)used pawns Ethereals trade in essence because they must, it is their only way of surviving, and that trade often includes deals with humans. Celestials do not trade, they take. Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:20:05 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Omentide" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) > Sure and where precisely do Celestials get their essence from? Milking > tortured souls in Hell. Tapping nicely on willing souls in Heaven which > has never really been explained. Do these souls have a choice? In Hell > certainly not. In Heaven I doubt it, I mean would a mortal soul dare to > stand up to an Angel and say no? Ectually, I don't recally any mention that blessed souls in Heaven are required to Essence-tithe. In Hell, of course, cruel exploitation is the order of the day. But that's why they're called 'demons'. More to the point, celestials don't die without an Essence feed from mortals. Celestials lived for billions of years before humans ever populated the mudball. Some of them (i.e. -- demons, and angels in really Dark campaigns) might be exploitative... but they're not, properly speaking, parasitic. [snip] > Ethereals trade in essence because they must, it is their only way of > surviving, and that trade often includes deals with humans. Celestials do > not trade, they take. Demons take. Angels just collect what's already discarded. Or what is the bounty of God. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:34:08 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >Jo Hart wrote: > > Disagree. The way sorcery is laid out in IN is one of the really brave > > design decisions that Derek made (IMO) and has a lot of flavour. And >it's> interesting, specifically game related flavour that makes players >stop and> think. Sorcery involves people summoning spirits and demons, you >can't do it> without risking your immortal soul -- that's really very cool, >when you> think about it. > > > > You want to play "everyone is right?" go take a look at WW, because >that's> their premise. IN isn't like that. It has some absolutes, and I >think> they're very important to the feel of the game. > > >Thank you. That's exactly the attitude I tried to preserve in the CPG. I >don't WANT sorcery to become just another tool for mortals to acquire >special powers. In In Nomine, the powers you wield have consequences in >themselves, not merely in HOW you use them. > >In Nomine NEEDS more moral absolutes, I agree totally. And while we're at it, why not some actual world development using adventures that DON'T railroad the PCs. but unfortunately, most fans seem >to like throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the setting (if I >see one more "Star Trek In Nomine" post my eyes are going to start >bleeding), as long as no moral judgments are made. Frankly, all this crap sprouts up to fill the VOID, the complete lack of stability. Oh, yeah, Uriel *might* be beneath Gabriel's Volcano, or he *might* be in the Marches, or, he *might* . . . I think we need fewer "nice ideas" and more solid development. Take Superiors 1, for instance . . . Stone's new Servitor Attunements rock! The Catacombs, pp22-23 are awesome (and a solid addition to the game world, not just a "suggestion") The sites and artifacts (S1pp23-34) are also introduced as definitely existing in the IN Canon game world, and reading through this section makes me want to run a Stone adventure, not because they are cool "you could do this" ideas (because they aren't), but because they're "these cool places/things" exist ideas. Authority and making the game world concrete does wonders. Now, if only there were a cool story in there about an Angel of Stone (there's a dialogue conveying Stone philosophy, but . . .) If I had my way, >ethereal spirits and pagans would be even more marginalized in the >official setting. Hey, go for it, people hate diversity, frankly, and the ideas of Dreams made Flesh is extremely boring. And besides, Ethereal beings would have to have their own cool powers, but no one buys supplements because of cool powers . . . or cool stories about the Old Gods points of view, their secret societies, or the lay out of the Far Marches. Besides, you'd just end up writing something like the Book of Worlds for WoD that I just shelled out $20 or so bucks for. I just bought it for the art, not the cool creatures, Things Man was Not Meant to Know, its nice description of Heaven (told through story, of course). (If you want pagan gods to be on the same footing as >Yahweh, and angels and demons to be just another kind of spirit, then >why are you playing In Nomine?) Because In Nomine provides a simple system for spirit powers, or To fight the Power, to Take Back the Night for the Old Gods! The Old Ways!! Because you are the Jedi Masta!!!! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:45:50 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >Demons take. Angels just collect what's already discarded. Or what is the >bounty of God. This does not make sense. For a start the war is about human souls, souls are the coin of the war. Demons milk souls for essence. It would be fair to assume the amount of essence reaching Heaven and Hell are roughly equal since otherwise there would be no war, one side would have won. Hence Heaven must be getting roughly the same amount of essence as Hell. So either God provides exponentially as the human race expands (unlikely), or both sides take from humanity and humanity is torn in the war between Heaven and Hell in roughly equal parts. Sure some might be discarded, but this would in no way make up for what is milked in Hell. Essence is coin in Hell and by implication it is also coin in Heaven. It is the coin of celestial being, what they need to survive. Without essence and angel or a demon is nothing and as far as I can remember the only Celestial likely to ask a human for essence is a Lilim reclaiming a favour. Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:41:12 -0600 From: "JamesStein" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > >That is very much NOT Eli's world-view. He says the world is CREATION > >(which is very nearly the opposite of chaos), will against ENTROPY. > > But entropy is creation, too. It creates a space for new things to fill. > It creates struggle, which is required for growth. > > Sounds like Eli isn't very well thought out on that point. Does this mean > that if Eli had his way, nothing would ever rot or crumble, that everything > would either be static or "improving?" Entropy embodies both decay *and* chaos/randomness. This is perfeclty within the realm of Creation, and even in Eli's description. However, Creation requires Will *against* Chaos as well - Chaos without order has no Form to it. It is a touch of both, that truly Creates. ....and that leads back into the issue of Eli's word very well encompassing...everything( with the exception of God himself, unless of course one follows the technicalities of reality being defined by the beliefs of mortals, in which case Mortals created God created Mortals created God ad inf., and makes *everything* (including God) fall into the realms of Eli's word. ....ok, *now* I'm off the topic... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:47:32 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >From: "Bevan Thomas" > > > > Sp 1 does mention that David's favorite vessel is Black, though > > that's never shown, and I still think Eli should be Black. > >Am I the only one who thinks the picture of Eli in the main book portrays >him as a black man? If Bruce Willis with dredlocks is black, then so be it. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:51:23 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Omentide" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:45 PM Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) > > >Demons take. Angels just collect what's already discarded. Or what is the > >bounty of God. > > This does not make sense. For a start the war is about human souls, souls > are the coin of the war. Angels are selfless, demons are selfish. Angels fight to save human souls because they care and because they don't want humans to get used and abused by demons, not because it's good for their economy. > Demons milk souls for essence. It would be fair to assume the amount of essence > reaching Heaven and Hell are roughly equal since otherwise there would be no war, > one side would have won. Not really. Remember, Essence does squadoo unless it's carried to where it can be used... and a celestial can carry only so much Essence at a time, and Heaven and Hell can make only so many reliquaries at a time. [snip] > Essence is coin in Hell and by implication it is also coin in Heaven. Essence is coin in Hell (actually, Sup4 makes it plain that damned souls and reliquaries are the /real/ currency base of Hell) because Mammon set it up that way, and because Asmodeus considers it useful to his Games to keep the system going. In Heaven, the economy is largely Marc's province -- and its against Marc's word to use souls as currency, because that's not a fair trade for the souls. Money can be entirely arbitrary with no actual specie base, after all -- the US currency system is an example of that. > It is the coin of celestial being, what they need to survive. Without essence > and angel or a demon is nothing False. *Celestials do not need continual Essence input from other beings merely to keep existing*. Ethereals *do*. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:46:13 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Bevan Thomas wrote: > Parasites seems a little too harsh a word to me. Though they are dependent> on humans and do take Essence from them, they do give things in return (a> cohesive belief system, spiritual protection and aid, songs and rites,> etc.). Some do. Most are just parasites. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:50:02 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Magic in In Nomine Charles Phipps wrote: > I think an In Nomine sorcerors book would be good but I like the idea of AT> least slight majority (55-60%) of all sorcerers recognizably evil and a good> 90% selfish dirtbags. More like 90%/99%, since Hell kills any sorceror it finds who ISN'T selfish at best and preferably evil, and has a near-monopoly on the means to sorcerous power. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:18:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jonathan Walton wrote: > 1. In Nomine is not GURPS. Taken from Beth, actually, but I think the > point needs to be pushed further. Just because IN is published by SJGames > doesn't mean that it needs a complicated point-based system for calculating > stuff. Personally, with the obvious exception of Artifacts, I don't find the point system at ALL complicated. Comparing it to GURPS is like comparing a pocket calculator to a PC. > 2. Simplify. Definitely needs to be more abstract and flexible. > Expand the scope but simplify the mechanics. Easily said. Now... How? > 3. No Restrictions. These are Celestials we are talking about here, > cosmic beings far beyond what we can even imagine. Then why is it that I > often feel like the various Choirs and Bands are just races in a standard > fantasy campaign? Why can their abilities be neatly listed and defined? > Shouldn't Celestials (and Ethereals) be given something of a wider range of > ways in which to operate? So, what you're saying is no more choirs/bands? Every celestial starts off on the same footing, and then buys their abilities, with all abilities available to every celestial? Heck, I thought you said you wanted it to be LESS like GURPS. Their abilities are "neatly listed and defined" so that the player and GM both know just what said celestial can DO. I don't understand this reasoning at all... why do we neatly list and define ALL characters' abilities on a character sheet? Unless you're doing just straight interactive storytelling and not pencil-and-paper classic roleplaying, in which case I guess you can get away with a paragraph of description instead of a character sheet with abilities listed on it. > 4. Dynamism, Excitement. Sure, Celestials are thousands of years old, > but this is _the_ War we're talking about here and it has cosmic importance. > It's the only game in town. I want to feel the emotional significance of > the War, feel the gains and losses, and overall I want some idea of > movement. The War is, after all, ultimately leading up to the Final > Conflict (not the Rev Cycle, please) and, even though that day may still be > far off, some motion should be apparent. You mean a metaplot? > 5. Confront this Religion Thing. At least the GMG *finally* bit into that apple. > we have next to no > information about what kinds of beliefs Celestials have (and they're the > main character types). Saying they have "varying" spiritual beliefs is the > equivalent of saying nothing at all. The GMG went into the various beliefs that were compatible with the angelic and demonic mindset. That's more than enough of a jumping off point for anyone lacking the creativity to come up with a religious viewpoint for their own character (or for NPCs, for the GM). Our group has yet to run across this conversation: GM: "What religious viewpoints does your character have?" Player: "Um... I don't know. The book doesn't have any information on what sort of beliefs my angel might have." > 6. Symphony, Symphony, Symphony. The last time that an IN book talked > significantly about the Symphony? If it's the basis of all creation, if > it's what the War is about, shouldn't it be fairly significant? Celestials > manipulate the Symphony all the time with Songs, Resonances, spending > essence, moving between Realms, etc. Why then is Disturbance the only > influence it seems to have on the game? I like what we're doing in Tattered, too... make all that Disturbance start to HURT. Sort of like the whole Star Trek Warp Speed Limit... > 7. Multi-Genre, Multi-Time, Multi-Place. Eh. I find this stuff boring as all hell, personally. If left in, it should be in ADD-ON BOOKS, not in the CORE book, definitely. > 1. Awe. This is a game about cosmic beings, some of whom have existed > from the dawn of time. Angels, Archangels, Demons, Demon Princes, all > supernatural creatures should be somewhat frightening and awesome to the > mortals, and in comparison to the Corporeal world. This is not the fear and > dark angst of the World of Darkness; this is the ineffable. Here you're talking style. This one is up the GM. A few lines about it in the book wouldn't hurt, though, under GM Advice or some such. > 2. Celestials don't think like humans. No, but humans are playing them, so don't expect completely alien viewpoints. They're going to be played much more humanlike than alienlike just because of who's playing them... as it is, I think the books do a decent job of encouraging more remote and alien viewpoints. They could do more, true. > 1. No Check Digit Tables/Simplify Resonances I don't have a problem with the resonances as written, personally. The normal CD tables are easy to use. The "Expanded APG Tables" have already been officially labelled "an embarrasment" and will be cut in the next edition, if any. Beth said so. > 2. Simplify Disturbance Rules Well, YEAH. I mean, that one's just a big huge joke. > 3. Abstractify Songs = Greater numbers and greater essence spent > increase what you can do, working within certain reference points: the type > of Song you bought and what you decided to call it. The GM/Player's call on > whether the Song is Corporeal, Ethereal, or Celestial, depending on what it > affects. Don't really see the need for this at all. > 4. Simplify Calculating Roles = Roles can cost one, two, or more > points per level, depending on the difficulty, status, and resources of the > role. Roll against Role for related skills, masking disturbance, and > anything else. Sounds pretty much exactly like what we've already got, except you'll be replacing the calculation with a table. > 5. Simplify Calculating Artifacts = Artifacts cost X points per > level, depending on the power and rarity. Powers, damage, embedded Songs, > etc, are all based on the level of the artifact. Artifacts need a much more major overhaul than that, even. They need a completely new approach, IMHO. What that approach is isn't exactly clear to me yet, though. > 6. Simplify Calculating Vessel Stuff = (Vessel + CF x Strength = > Hits) rule is too strange, come up with something that works but is more > sensible and easier to learn. We use the Total Forces + Corporeal Forces + (Vessel x 5) from the GMG and it works great. > Ditch Charisma (why a part of Vessels?). Yup. > 7. Forces = Change maximum (from 18 to ?). Ditch Word-Forces (sorry > David, but I find that they complicate the game by quantifying something > best left abstract). Disagree completely on both points. Don't see any reason why 18 isn't a good max, and Word Forces are both elegant and easy to use. > 8. Ditch Servants. This kind of thing should be roleplayed and not > quantified. Sure. > 9. Ditch Experience System for Celestials and Ethereals (just for > mortals). Rewards are totally based on the amount of power your Superior is > willing to invest in you Hmm. I think GMs just need to be encouraged to give out miserly XP rewards, and reserve the rest for what the Superior thinks of you, myself, along with taking an active hand in what the PCs buy. I have had NO problem with power inflation, myself. > 10. Angel and Demon-ness. All Celestials have the ability to manifest > their nature corporeally in a kind of Numinuous Corpus: Angel/Demon, > providing the appropriate wings, claws, halos, glowing aura, surrounded by > flames, etc. Maybe an ability to Corporeally or Celestially manifest > aspects of your Word. You only start out with basic abilities of > Angel/Demon-Ness and have to raise it with points. That'd be neat, sure. > 11. "Eden Ban." No moving between planes when not at a tether > (increases their importance dramatically and explains why they even exist in > the first place), means that the remaining Ethereals fight like nothing else > to hold onto the ones they've got (though Ethereal tethers might form a bit > easier than Divine or Infernal ones?) I REALLY liked this idea, and I think it would fit IN much better than the current rules. No celestial ever has to lose a Force in canon - they can just zip up to their home. This fixes that. > 12. No hearts? This is a new addition based on ideas from the mailing > list. Do they really serve a purpose that's worth the extra complication > (since they deviate from standard myth a great deal)? If you can only > advance (i.e. get "experience" points) through a connection with a Superior, > becoming an Outcast or Renegade already has a strong deterrent. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe. > 1. Include the Grigori Yes. > 2. Include all living Superiors (Khalid, Chris, Alaemon, etc.) Khalid, yes. The others... maybe a book of just minor Superiors. We need to save SOME space, y'know. > 3. Organize, Organize, Organize I trust Beth on this one. > 4. New fiction that actually reflects the reality of the game No kidding. Hands up here, anyone who's had to explain to a player that NO, their Mercurian can NOT do the things that Nicole did? > 5. Get Chris Shy and Ramon Perez to be the official IN artists (silly final > comment) For the most part, I do like them much better... except for Perez' "Dominic of the thousand eyes", which I *hate*. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Human germ!" -- Shrapnel (Decepticon), _Transformers: The Movie_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:23:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Bevan Thomas wrote: > 1. In pictures of Superiors, make them a little more ethnically diverse. > Gabriel and Khalid are the only ones that I can think of that don't like > White. I dunno, I'd just prefer if we saw some Japanese, Indian, or Black > superiors. Sp 1 does mention that David's favorite vessel is Black, though > that's never shown, and I still think Eli should be Black. That's a good point. David always galled me quite a bit... maybe Smif just can't draw anything but white people... > 2. In pictures of angels, show them in seperate choirs, not just people with > wings (though obviously non-Mercurians). When you do show Cherubim, make > them look a little less like cartoon animals. No kiding. > 3. Make prophets, saints, and sorcerers part of the core rules (prophets and > saints would only require a paragraph apiece, sorcerers would take a little > more work, so they're probably an idle dream). A paragraph for prophets, and a few for saints, would be good. I don't think Sorcerors would justify the space needed. > 4. Don't make sorcery as a whole universally looked down upon. No way. Consorting with demons and selfishness SHOULD be considered evil in a game like In NOmine. The CPG makes it VERY clear that there are some "white" sorcerors who do good and aren't all that evil, but that they're rare as hell. That's enough. BTW, of my list of "house rules that I'd like to see become canon", I'd like to mention one: 1. Sorcery shouldn't disturb the Symphony. Seriously. Sorcery is a JOKE, as written... the only reason Sorcerors are considered dangerous is because they can also learn Songs. Making Sorcery more subtle makes it actually worth learning. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Yes, yes, yes, I'm the one that's been killing all those people, but I'm also the creative force behind Happy Noodle Boy, so forgive me and shut up." -- Johnny the Homicidal Maniac ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:14:48 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Perry Lloyd wrote: > >They're also supposed to be rare, and they aren't a central part of the> >game (unless you're playing a human campaign, in which case you need the> >CPG. :)) > > No you don't. You just need a creative GM. True enough. The CPG is just useful. (Hence the smiley.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:16:50 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Omentide wrote: > Sure and where precisely do Celestials get their essence from? The Symphony. Essence from humans is a bonus. Celestials existed before there were any humans. > In Heaven I doubt it, I mean would a mortal soul dare to > stand up to an Angel and say no? Angels don't go around asking for human Essence, especially in Heaven. > The economy of Heaven and Hell will not stand up if they exists purely on> what comes at dawn or sunset. And Words. Fundamental aspects of reality. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:20:04 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Perry Lloyd wrote: > And while we're at it, why not some actual world development using > adventures that DON'T railroad the PCs. That would be nice, if we ever publish any more adventures. > Frankly, all this crap sprouts up to fill the VOID, the complete lack of> stability. Oh, yeah, Uriel *might* be beneath Gabriel's Volcano, or he> *might* be in the Marches, or, he *might* . . . > > Don't blame me -- if I had my way, we WOULD make more canon statements. However, for every fan like you that wants more canon certainty, there's another one who screams that SJG had better not dare to decide such things rather than leaving them up to individual GMs. > If I had my way, > >ethereal spirits and pagans would be even more marginalized in the > >official setting. > > Hey, go for it, people hate diversity, frankly, and the ideas of Dreams made> Flesh is extremely boring. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Making ethereals second-fiddle to celestials hardly precludes either diversity or "Dreams made Flesh." > And besides, Ethereal beings would have to have their own cool powers, but> no one buys supplements because of cool powers . . . or cool stories about> the Old Gods points of view, their secret societies, or the lay out of the> Far Marches. That's a shame....guess they won't like the EPG then. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:31:41 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > > 2. Simplify Disturbance Rules > > Well, YEAH. I mean, that one's just a big huge joke. Once again, I take the opportunity to trot out a favorite concept of mine: what I call "Metric Disturbance." The rule is simple: 1 note of Disturbance = lasts for 1 minute = travels 1 mile. Perception is used as a skill to determine whether or not Disturbance is heard; if so, CD results are used. For a discussion on how this works out in game, I refer you to http://www.web-melange.org:81/in-nomine/inwod/disturbance.html . - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:38:44 -0500 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >>That is very much NOT Eli's world-view. He says the world is CREATION >>(which is very nearly the opposite of chaos), will against ENTROPY. > >But entropy is creation, too. It creates a space for new things to fill. >It creates struggle, which is required for growth. Not quite. The way I define it, entropy is a spiral where destruction/creation are a circle. Entropy would heavily support Oblivion, inasmuch as it eventually leads to nonexistance. Not 'this can be fixed', not 'this can be recycled', but 'this is *not*.' Destruction, on the other hand, would be supported by Eli, for precisely the reasons you described above. >Sounds like Eli isn't very well thought out on that point. Does this mean >that if Eli had his way, nothing would ever rot or crumble, that everything >would either be static or "improving?" Oddly enough, this is really close to the way I see Backwards IN Heaven. Hell wants change and growth, Heaven wants perpetual stasis. ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Akin (OOC): "...My ST is funny and evil. Good to know." Sidra (OOC): "...our ST's the Demon Prince of Dark Humor?" [blink blink] ST: "That is but one of my *many* names, Shady." Sidra (OOC): "...coooooool!" ^^ Akin/Relian, Sidra/S.D. Ryukage, and ST/Wanderer, 'A Night of Dark Intent' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:46:25 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Eric Bertish wrote: > > > > 2. Simplify Disturbance Rules > > > > Well, YEAH. I mean, that one's just a big huge joke. > > Once again, I take the opportunity to trot out a favorite concept of mine:> what I call "Metric Disturbance." The rule is simple: May I also point out that there are several alternate Disturbance rules in the GMG. Does no one find them useful? :( - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:53:47 -0600 From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List > May I also point out that there are several alternate Disturbance rules > in the GMG. Does no one find them useful? :( I did! :) My only "wishlist" for In Nomine is for SJGames to publish the EPG (it is finished, right) and the rest of the blasted Superiors books -- that'd be a merry Xmess.