in_nomine-digest Sunday, December 2 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2469 In this digest: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] IN> Dunno what to call this... Re: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood Re: IN> Dunno what to call this... IN> Ethereals from Charles Phipp's perspective Re: IN> Ethereals from Charles Phipp's perspective Re: IN> Ethereals from the EPG's perspective Re: IN> Ethereals from the EPG's perspective IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Re: IN> Dunno what to call this... Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) Re: IN> Superiors 1 Re: IN> Wish List IN> Development... (Re: Wish List) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 03:48:32 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Omentide wrote: > Never said they were morally equivalent. There is a difference between> needing souls and how and why they are used. Nowhere in canon is it implied that Heaven NEEDS souls. Indeed, the angels were doing just fine without humanity. Hell needs souls, because they don't have the Symphonic connection that Heaven does. Angels receive Essence from the Symphony; demons have to beg, borrow or steal it. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 03:54:19 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Omentide wrote: > By all means within IN portray the Sidhe, or Odin, or Apollo as dangerous > parasites Ethereals on that level don't need to be so parasitic, and rarely prey on individual humans. (Well, the Sidhe do, but that's 'cause they enjoy it.) >but this is purely the theological perspective of Heaven and > Hell. This is a game about Heaven and Hell. > By all means portray them as dangerous, selfish or whatever Actually they vary a great deal in their motives. Some are benevolent. But most are self-interested at best. > bit this> is only one perspective and bear in mind that many of us do not see them > this way. Well, yeah, and many Christians, Jews, and Muslims don't see angels and demons the way they're portrayed in IN either... > If people like miners are or were frightened of certain spirits it is > because they were to told to be and believed it, rather than those spirits > actually being dangerous. Sure they can be dangerous but with proper care > and respect they generally are not. Uh, right. How would you know this, even assuming such things actually existed? Talked to any brownies lately? > IMHO the APG and IPG should portray ethereals as dangerous, but the CPG and > the EPG should present different opinions based on various perspectives. I think the CPG did. The EPG will certainly present the ethereals' own opinions about themselves, as well as how Heaven and Hell see them. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:28 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] In article <20011201200241.22419.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com>, moelane_1999@yahoo.com (Maurice Lane) wrote: > moes busy you see > so > the keyboard is free > and i know that he wont mind Welcome, stranger! (they don't get a lot stranger). But you could use the shift key if you were in two vessels, surely? > also, i wanted to tell you that > we appreciate the thought > but you really should take out the trash As Snow White put it: Spring winds stir the willow, A distant star flickers, Empty the dustbins. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 11:43:00 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Coming up next... Joe, Soldier of Jordi and Servant of the Angel of Cockroaches. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 08:53:13 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Dunno what to call this... Intellectual exercise? 'NPC race'? Attempt to get myself in a suitably Dark state of mind for tonight's game? Beats me. :) Moe Hellburners To begin with, do not use that name around Laurence or Novalis. Neither Archangel likes it - or the concept that it covers. Indeed, both of them decline to officially recognize the group's existence: it isn't precisely a condition that one would wish to encourage. However, neither Archangel gets to make the final call on this one. You see, the problem with fighting an enemy that is, well, vile, is that the aforementioned enemy will seldom hesitate to fight dirty. Obscenely dirty, if necessary ... and it's amazing what Hell can rationalize as being 'necessary'. Most angels learn to accept this as a matter of course, but it can come to a surprise to many Soldiers. There's a reason why so many human servants of the Host don't have much of a social life, outside of their colleagues: Hell does its damnedest to take it away, often messily. Some Soldiers rise above this test. Some are broken by it. Some become Hellburners. There's only one 'requirement' to be a Hellburner (in game terms, at least): a Will of 7. That's in game terms. The background, however, is a different story: Hellburners are invariably Soldiers who have seen demonic cruelty up close and personal. They've watched as their families or friends or lovers were targeted, tortured or damned. Many times they themselves were the unwitting agents of such activities (Hellburners often get that way as a direct result of Shedite machinations). The experience drives them mad - but it's a functional madness, really. They can still act effectively, after all. Just don't expect them to ever again demonstrate a full range of human emotions. Contrary to popular belief, not all Hellburners are combat monsters. For every zombie-like gunman, there's a emotionless hacker that trashes entire financial networks to target one demonic bank account: for every chainsaw-wielding fanatic there's a silent paramedic prepared to make sure that a suspected Hellsworn never makes it to the hospital. What does distinguish all Hellburners is their collective willingness to not shrink from any activity that will hurt Hell. Demon holed up in the abandoned building with hostages? Break out gasoline and matches. Evidence that a human is Hellsworn? Introduce him or her to a tree shredder. Shedite possessing an innocent? Pull out an ice pick. Shedite possessing a colleague? Pull out an ice pick. Shedite possessing you? Quickly pull out an ice pick. As the above might suggest, Shedim and Hellburners have a very, very interesting relationship. Inexperienced Corrupters are drawn to them ... only to discover that these half-broken Soldiers are usually quite cognizant of what it feels like to be ridden, and have no compulsion against forcing the demon out by any and all means necessary. Some Hellburners have even been known to use Force Catchers (or Will-Shackles on themselves), then calmly sit in the locus of a Tether and savor the screams. A more experienced Shedite can overcome this kind of conditioning, but it is still not a pleasant experience at all. Indeed, most of Hell's street-level operatives find an encounter with Hellburners to be highly unpleasant. Aside from their high Will, Hellburners have no inherent added resistance to being affected by a demonic resonance ... but they don't particularly care. For example, an inexperienced Balseraph might try to convince a foe that he or she isn't actually attacking a demon, but no Hellburner will ever stop using a chainsaw on someone simply because he cannot remember why he chose to start doing so in the first place. Lilim (and Calabim) will find that Hellburners are indifferent to pain: they can feel it and be physically affected by it, but it won't stop them. Impudites are usually terminally shocked to discover that a Hellburner will kill someone that he or she 'likes', if the situation calls for it. A powerful, experienced demon can play a Hellburner like a violin, of course - but the average demon would be well advised to simply avoid finesse and either shoot to kill, or run. There is no formal Hellburner organization: it's more of an epithet than anything else. 'Members' usually work in groups of (at most) three or four. They tend not to socialize with each other too much, but then they never really socialize at all. Hellburners never consider themselves off duty, after all. This fact, coupled with their complete lack of self-preservation, helps explain why so few Hellburners seem to last very long. 95% of them are dead within a year of whatever it was that half-broke them; none have lasted more than a decade before full madness or death. Nobody in Heaven likes the idea that humans are capable of getting this bad, but there's a wide difference of opinion about the appropriate response. Every Archangel has his or her own method of dealing with the situation (many would say 'problem'), ranging from reassignment to involuntary care to a painless death and intensive therapy in Heaven. Active, open Hellburners serve War, Stone, Lightning or Creation - Eli's walkabout has had some extremely unfortunate consequences - but there are always rumors about most of the other Archangels, and how they may have one or two available, at need. Any tool at hand, after all. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 19:30:39 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood >From: "Eric Bertish" >Subject: Re: IN> Bracers of Brotherhood >Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:13:49 -0500 >I guess it goes back to how I see David. In my games, at least, he's the >Anvil of Heaven, with the rest of the War faction (but especially Michael) >as the Hammer. >David *must* be strong, *must* be dependable, *must* be the very bedrock of >Heaven. If any of his angels falter through weakness, then David falters, >and so does the Host. Since the group is greater than the individual, David >will kill any angel who threatens the solidarity of that group -- but only >if he must. He much prefers to teach, and the lessons of Stone are harsh. The problem is, in FotM there is *no* way for that poor Malakite to avoid Dissonance. The generic 'Suffer not an evil...' oath can be set aside by David's orders, and was -- but he had more specific oaths that couldn't be, but that he was under David's orders to not do anyway. Any Superior who deliberately places a servitor in a situation where he's Dissonant if he does and Dissonant if he doesn't -- and then leaving him there for *decades* -- is somebody who /deserves/ to have Dominic clog-dance on his (pun intended) stones wearing golf cleats. [snip] >The Bracers are designed for use against recalcitrant PCs. You know, the >ones who don't get the hint when they get chastised for engaging in >unauthorized solo action because they had the luck or the skill to pull it >off. If David was up front about these, the lesson would not be learned, as >the player would go, "Oh, is that all I need to do," coordinate a joint >attack, then go his merry way. >Nothing grabs a PC's attention quite so much like soul hits. Especially if >his loose cannon antics nearly soul-kill the fluffy non- >combat Mercurian in the group. > >But then, I'm a bastard. I still don't think that's the best way to go about it -- especially given that any PC of the type you describe really wouldn't /care/ if he killed the fluffy non-combat Mercurian in the group. Macho idiots like those think that the fluffy non-combat characters should all die anyway, because they "eat up valuable game time" with all that mushy role-playing stuff, time that could be more "profitably" spent killing things. To my mind, Heavenly punishments -- even David's worst ordeals of legend -- should all be on the 'tough but fair' principle. Which means: a) No hidden booby traps. You are told what the rules are, and they're not impossible to follow. *Difficult*, yes, but not impossible. (A *Hellish* punishment would be to drop two Geas/6 on somebody -- "Stand absolutely still" and "No matter what, don't stop moving" -- and then watching the poor SOB explode. But that's not Heaven's way.) b) If you screw up, give up, or just refuse to go along, you hurt nobody but you. You might hurt yourself lots, but the punishment will not be such that it will force collateral damage out upon the general populace. Only upon your own person and/or any accomplices you might have had in the offense that you're being punished for. The Bracers fall down on both counts. - -- Chuckg PS -- Another rule of thumb I use for Heavenly punishments -- if it's something that *Dominic* would think was excessively harsh, then it probably is. *eg* _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:46 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Dunno what to call this... In article <20011202165313.34361.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com>, moelane_1999@yahoo.com (Maurice Lane) wrote: > Hellburners .... > Any tool at hand, after all. Not nice at all, but very apposite. The Psycho Killer rules from GURPS Horror might well be a useful guide to playing these unfortunates. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 16:21:13 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Ethereals from Charles Phipp's perspective I'd like to add my two cents in on this particular piece of interest. In Nomine Monotheism: This is the first thing I'd like to address in that I for one happen to find In Nomine's Judeo-Christain mythology rather refreshing in it's complete OPPOSITE to the normal portrayal in myth. While I'm sure many people who would follow the Greek and Norse faiths would be highly offended by the portrayals of their gods in the majority of RPGs (Dungeons and Dragons for instance) the fact remains that they do exist. It's one of the draws for me that In Nomine by very defination is a game about "angels" whether demon or loyalist and whether God is good, evil, etc he's still a major factor in the game and a sort of unstated by law of the universe that he exists (okay actually fairly stated). We already have Call of Cthulhu, Werewolf the Apcolypse/Mage the Ascension, and even Star Wars to provide non-Abrahamic religious origins for the universe. It reminds me of a article about Christian priests in Call of Cthulhu.... Do you realize how awkward it is to explain as a minister in the Bible Belt to fellow strong Bible Belt fellow gammers that in Call of Cthulhu there is no ambiguity whatsoever....God does not exist? There's not even plausible deniability like the High god of Dragonlance, Ao's Boss in Forgotten Realms, and the Athar's Greater Unknown. In Nomine if it loses it's Abrahamic/Christian MYTHOLOGY (as opposed to honest theology) roots then it has basically lost what seperates it from the vast majority of spiritually themed games on the market. By playing so close to the subject matter it keeps itself from becomming another Kult or Nephilim yet ironically still gives the diversity needed to avoid becomming a Jack Chick... Good guys vs. Bad guys. HOWEVER let's look at basically where that leaves Ethereals. I'm reminded of the frequent chats about Rape in RPGing (only once has the subject come up in my game with my friend Chris who both agreed that it was a subject we didn't want to touch upon after an awkward silence in a game) in the fact that "ethereals are parasites". I don't want to open this particular long standing can of worms but it basically comes down to playing 'Evil' characters. I'm currently running in a game where I am a Demon pretending to be a Soldier of an angel and more or less it comes down to it that while I can admire my character's tenacity, fortitude, and even vision...he's still the bad guy. Furtheremore my last In Nomine character before that was a Sorcerer with a Lilim master and he was such WHINING pathetic scum that I wanted to kill him myself...as well as the player's did. To avoid going WAY too off topic there's a chance in a backwards game of Demons being the good guys or walking the edge of Anti-Hero, Demons for freedom/Guys in a bad situation as opposed to being the remorseless Slasher villains of Myth. Really it's a long running debate about whether you can blame a Hellspawn demon for being evil when he has no choice of being anything else and he has no good to compare himself to....and there's the chance he might become something better. With ethereals we stand at the possibility of a disturbing idea that no matter what they do they are parasites on humanity's dream life and they will always be because they have no other choice but oblivion. There's no redemption, no possibility of change, no fate or destiny that has an afterlife thus far we've seen. While some might be intrigued with playing such a character more others will be turned off by the concept. Furthermore and I don't want to seem like a real jerk for writing this but Ethereals as they stand are not really much different from Chimera as portrayed in Changeling the Dreaming. *raises hand* Don't get me wrong I love Changeling the Dreaming and I absolutely think it's a wonderful themed game that deserves a GURPs writeup and alot more press than a bad system gave it. However one has to ask oneself what really the point is for the Developers (who spend their hard earned money here) and for the Players (who do likewise) to produce/purchase a game which has already been more or less regulated to Cult status despite being a commercial failure? Like the Buffy the Vampire Slayer Movie or the Evil Dead Trilogy there's not much point in exploring something already well traversed and from a strictly financial perspective not very healthfully in an already small hobby subgroup. In effect as a consumer, admittadly one of many and my voice is small compared to the multitudes...and heck I'll even buy it just to support my line. I have to ask you upfront what exactly is the Ethereal player's Guide going to provide me in terms of themes, history, and psychology that my campaign is currently missing? What conflicts will exist there that have not been explored in say a High Contrast/Highly religious game? One thing I definately want to ask is how the subject of Divinities vs. "Normal Dreams". In what will probably seem like gross hypocrisy in the In Nomine universe I'd like the ethereal players guide to touch on the idea that ethereal "gods" do not believe themselves to be dreams at all. While it may seem like gross lunacy it might be prefferable to exploring a new theme that Apollo, Athena, etc REMEMBER being gods and goddesses of immeasurable power and even the creation of the world in some places yet somehow were stripped of that power. They were thus bansihed to the Marches to live among the 'phantasms' of the dreaming. Also the option of playing a variant on Word Bound, that dreams which fade away depend a great deal on a certain concept. Perhaps certain dreams like Valor etc only fade away if they do not choose to adapt themselves... Just some ideas. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:03:05 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals from Charles Phipp's perspective From: "Charles Phipps" > > In what will probably seem like gross hypocrisy in the In Nomine > universe I'd like the ethereal players guide to touch on the idea > that ethereal "gods" do not believe themselves to be dreams at all. I don't see anything hypocritical about it at all; such a subjective viewpoint on their part is exactly what would be needed for them to rise to the level of power they once held. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 16:25:57 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals from the EPG's perspective Prodigal wrote: > > From: "Charles Phipps" > > > > In what will probably seem like gross hypocrisy in the In Nomine > > universe I'd like the ethereal players guide to touch on the idea > > that ethereal "gods" do not believe themselves to be dreams at all. > > I don't see anything hypocritical about it at all; such a subjective > viewpoint on their part is exactly what would be needed for them to rise to > the level of power they once held. As currently written (and I have no reason to believe that this particular aspect of the EPG will change): The EPG describes ethereals with a variety of viewpoints and motives and attitudes. Some are benevolently disposed towards humans, some even regarding themselves as guardians, teachers, and guides for humans, much as (some) angels do. Some are selfish parasites who really don't care about humans except as a source of Essence. Some don't need human Essence at all (at least, not directly), and therefore have little or nothing to do with mortals. Some are actively evil and take delight in tormenting and/or killing humans. Some of the latter are working for Hell, and some just do it because they're nasty. Most probably fall somewhere between the two extremes above (i.e., in the "selfish and/or don't care" category). As for what they believe about themselves: many subscribe to the "ethereal heresy" and claim that Yahweh was just another pagan god who got lucky, and that celestials are therefore merely ethereals with some extra juice. Some basically agree with celestials and believe that they are in fact just constructs of human imagination, animated dreams (which makes them no less self-aware, or desirous of perpetuating their own existence). Some have other theories, believing that Yahweh and celestials are indeed a different order of being than ethereals, yet maintaining that ethereals are independent entities in their own right. And of course, a lot of ethereals have little or no self-awareness or inclination to philosophize about their origins, and are merely driven by survival instincts. Ask a bogey-monster what he thinks of the ethereal heresey, and he'll probably blink once before trying to eat you. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:34:22 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals from the EPG's perspective From: "David Edelstein" > > As currently written (and I have no reason to believe that this > particular aspect of the EPG will change): Thank you for passing that along, David; I look forward to the playtest on this one. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:12:06 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? What with all this talk of an IN Wish List, and White Wolf's upcoming "Daemon: The Fallen" Demon-oriented RPG (Bound to be on that year's Fundie Hitlist), maybe now would be a good time for SJGames to consider having someone (Maybe Ken Hite, hint hint?) write a revised, 2nd Edition of In Nomine, so as to compete with the WW one. I think the Wish List covered most of what could be improved on the current Edition, but here are my thoughts on the matter: - -Resonnances should be more versatile: Seraphim, for exemple, should be more then lie-detectors. With their ability to tell Truth from Fiction, they should be able to see through disguises or Illusions, I figure. And perhaps Calabim could have more tricks up their Ressonant sleeves: Entropic Auras for self protection, charging physical attacks with Entropic energies, focused Entropic blasts, etc. - -Songs: The Songs should, in my opinion, be redefined along more basic, Universal themes. perhaps the Song of Attraction could manipulate gravity in limited ways (1 lb per Essence Point), for exemple, rather then it's current, somewhat useless application. The Classification of Songs could also use work, as well. Why are all the best songs in the Liber Canticorum? ([Cynic]To sell that book[/Cynic]) The Song of Fire, both Angelic and Infernal, should be one of the more basic Songs, if only because of the Superiors on both sides. Likewise, Angels of each Superior should have a Song of Choice, either created by their Superior or Favored by him/her. You could call those Favored Songs (automatically known at basic level by Servitors, free of charge) their Word's "Leitmotiv" (to preserve the Musical theme) Oh, and just as a side note: How about writing down the songs with Latin Titles, for added flavor? Other Games tend to have fancy names for their Spells, so why not IN? Instead of calling it the "Song of Dreams", why not call it "Canticorum Onirii"? - -The Eden Ban: Workable Idea, even in the Canon Universe. You could explain the Eden Ban as a recent peace treaty negociated following the False Apocalypse, limiting Heaven and Hell's transit to and from Earth to Tethers, In hopes of controlling the traffic a little better. - -No Hearts: This one I like a little less. Hearts are a basic part of the current setting, and would be hard to explain away. Also, I like how it gives a player a "Second Chance" to save his/her character in the case of Vessel Death. But I also agree that a simple cost of 1 Essence to ascend/descend from Vessel Death is a bit weak. How about ruling that it takes a positive Superior Intervention to be saved from Absolute Destruction? Sounds to me like saving a Servitor from certain death would be something you'd need a Superior's help for. That's it from me. I hand the floor back to you guys. - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:16:21 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Dunno what to call this... > Not nice at all, but very apposite. The Psycho Killer rules from GURPS > Horror might well be a useful guide to playing these unfortunates. Unless you are like me who (A) Does not own anything GURPS and (B) Has no desire to change the status of (A). And I must say Moe, I forgot you talked about this until Amanda jogged my memory. Nicely done piece of work... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:23:14 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? > (Bound to be on that year's Fundie Hitlist) Nah. They have to get through Harry Potter first and possible Lord of the Rings. > -Resonnances should be more versatile: I think limiting Resonances to what they do now works great. The whole idea behind much of the Wish List was to simplify things. > You could call those Favored Songs (automatically known at basic level by > Servitors, free of charge) their Word's "Leitmotiv" (to preserve the Musical > theme) Nah. That whole idea is too much like WW for my tastes. > How about writing down the songs with Latin Titles, for added flavor? Other > Games tend to have fancy names for their Spells, so why not IN? Simplicity. Besides, I have no desire to go stop a game and go digging through the list of Songs because I am drawing a blank of the Latin translation. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:31:38 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? on 12/1/01 6:12 PM, Rolland Therrien at rolland.therrien@videotron.ca wrote: > What with all this talk of an IN Wish List, and White Wolf's upcoming > "Daemon: The Fallen" Demon-oriented RPG Uncertain. I'd lay even money that it's actually the "antagonist" book for HUNTER: THE RECKONING, which would mean infernally-imbued mortals. (No one here seems troubled by the fact that H:tR is, for all appearances, a Divine Soldiers game.) >(Bound to be on that year's Fundie Hitlist), maybe now would be a good > time for SJGames to consider having someone (Maybe Ken Hite, hint hint?) You know... I like Ken Hite. Even had the pleasure of meeting him once. But I don't know how well he can be funny -- and the humor, black or otherwise, is one of the draws of IN. If we're picking from SJGames alums, I'd sooner see Em Dresner-Thornber or David Pulver write it. > The Classification of Songs could also use work, as well. Why are all the > best songs in the Liber Canticorum? ([Cynic]To sell that book[/Cynic]) Well, the easy answer is, "Coming out later = more time to think of cool songs." My cynic answer is, "To keep them out of the hands of cheeseballs." > Oh, and just as a side note: How about writing down the songs with Latin > Titles, for added flavor? Other Games tend to have fancy names for their > Spells, so why not IN? Instead of calling it the "Song of Dreams", why not > call it "Canticorum Onirii"? To stem a tide of horrible mispronunciations? - -- Jason Schneiderman :: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com I think this line's mostly filler. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:12:36 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? > You know... I like Ken Hite. Even had the pleasure of meeting him once. But > I don't know how well he can be funny -- and the humor, black or otherwise, > is one of the draws of IN. If we're picking from SJGames alums, I'd sooner > see Em Dresner-Thornber or David Pulver write it. Or David Edelstein. I greatly appreciate his no-nonsense attitude towards the mushy, cutesy swill people try to inject into In Nomine, and his writing is always true to the tone of the game. Dark, stern, moralistic, absolute. He's about the war between angels and demons. David Pulver would also be awesome. The man writes some of the best GURPS supplements... but a lot of his books are also over-technical. I agree that with your comments on Ken Hite. Excellent writer, does some of the best stuff around, but he's a little way off in left field for In Nomine. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:41:35 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? >David Pulver would also be awesome. The man writes some of the best GURPS >supplements... but a lot of his books are also over-technical. I was thinking of "GURPS Technomancer" when I wrote that - a nice mix of light and dark. * * * * * Jason Schneiderman - jadasc@ma.ultranet.com I think this line's mostly filler. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:49:00 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? > >David Pulver would also be awesome. The man writes some of the best GURPS > >supplements... but a lot of his books are also over-technical. > > I was thinking of "GURPS Technomancer" when I wrote that - a nice mix of > light and dark. I was thinking Vehicles and Robots when I wrote that. Of course, David Pulver deserves eternal adulation for his Reign of Steel, one of the best GURPS supplements ever written. That's a game world that's good and In Nominesque... what happens if Vapula wins the War? David knows the answer. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 16:38:40 +1300 From: "Rupert Dixon" Subject: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) This is my first post, but I just had this crazy idea and had to share it with one and all. I'm not sure if it's been done before, but I did read through the lists and couldn't find it; so here goes. Dark Destiny. Scene: Seraphim Council is in full swing. Order being kept by AA Dominic (of course), various matters arise, and are being discussed, some of which even get resolved. Suddenly a Seraph of Destiny rushes through the doors (rushing being relative here... he's certainly no Ofanite of the Wind!). He takes the stage and coughs gently... "Lord Dominic?" "What is the meaning of this interruption?" "ahem... we have received some alarming news, my Lords and Ladies Archangels." Metaphorical eyebrows raise around the room... "It's about a mortal girl... we know of her Destiny" "and..." prompts Michael, a little impatient, but curious none-the-less. "I quote: Her Destiny is to unite the world..." "Hear hear! We must support her!" Roars David from across the Chamber. Dominic frowns "Let him finish" "sorry, of course Most Just" Dominic's attention is redirected to the Seraph once more "please, continue." "Thank you, my Lord. Her Destiny is to unite the world... in suffering and subjugation under her iron fist." not a sound can be heard. Nothing, no shuffling, no rustling of papers, nothing. "...are you... certain?" asks Dominic carefully Yves lifts his head and says "yes, Dominic, he *is* certain, as am I" "If that's her Destiny, then what the Hell is her Fate?" blurts Janus, then coughs... "sorry about the language" "That much, only I know, and perhaps my counter-part, and I am afraid that I cannot share it with you. Only this much is for sure, she MUST reach her Destiny, or we all are doomed" Yves, stands, bows, and leaves amid much clamoring for his attention.... .... ta-da! Make of it as you will, but that's my 2 cents for now. Ciao, Rupert _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:07:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 1 At 1:08 AM -0500 11/30/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >page 23 >Under the Lace Coral Meander > >"inductees have fed their blood to" > >Do beings bleed in Heaven?? Presumably wounds leak _something_ that could be called "blood" -- in some suitably poetic meaning of the word, of course. Figure that soul hits ooze or something. O:> - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:39:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Wish List At 1:24 AM -0800 11/29/01, Bevan Thomas wrote: >2. In pictures of angels, show them in seperate choirs, not just people with >wings (though obviously non-Mercurians). When you do show Cherubim, make >them look a little less like cartoon animals. Just as a note -- while I -have- sent art specs of the Choirs and Bands, I have no idea if the current Art Director got those notes, gives them out, or whatever. Some of the keenest pictures are Bruton's, I think, in Heaven & Hell... [Re: the check digit tables in the APG] One of these days, I want a FAQAB. That's Frequently Asked Questions About Beth. It could include things like the Superior Soap Opera and some nice synopses about my rants about the APG. Suffice it to say that the check digit tables in the APG are the _FIRST_ thing that I intend to line up against the wall and shoot the day that I get to revise that sum'gum. The single CD table in the IPG is almost certainly going to stay, though, since it's minor, there's only one of it, and Calabim don't _have_ any other check digit tables. (That and I can't figure any more elegant way to say it, the way I managed with Lilim.) At 12:18 AM -0500 11/30/01, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jonathan Walton wrote: > [...] >Personally, with the obvious exception of Artifacts, Liber Reliquarium, p. 26. Just for you. O;> >I don't have a problem with the resonances as written, personally. The >normal CD tables are easy to use. The "Expanded APG Tables" have already >been officially labelled "an embarrasment" and will be cut in the next >edition, if any. Beth said so. See? See? Someone rememebers! O:> Except calling them "an embarassment" is toning down my oft-stated opinions... >> 2. Simplify Disturbance Rules > >Well, YEAH. I mean, that one's just a big huge joke. Still working on it. I'm thinking that the best simplification, while still allowing an interaction between a being's Perception and a disturbance's magnitude _and_ the range between... ....would be a chart. The Speed/Range Table hack we did for GURPS IN works pretty well at low levels, but breaks with large disturbances. The nasty little formula in the core book does better with large disturbances, but breaks at smaller ones. >> 3. Abstractify Songs = Greater numbers and greater essence spent >> increase what you can do, working within certain reference points: the type >> of Song you bought and what you decided to call it. The GM/Player's call on >> whether the Song is Corporeal, Ethereal, or Celestial, depending on what it >> affects. > >Don't really see the need for this at all. Personally, it sounds like even _more_ work for the GM -- and me. Because sometimes it seems like Every Single Vague Wording eventually comes back to haunt me in the form of someone asking, "What's canon on X?" and then sometimes, "Well, why didn't it _say_ so?" Look at the blessed Mercurians' dissonance condition... (It's nice and blunt in GIN...) >> 7. Forces = Change maximum (from 18 to ?). Ditch Word-Forces (sorry >> David, but I find that they complicate the game by quantifying something >> best left abstract). > >Disagree completely on both points. Don't see any reason why 18 isn't a >good max, and Word Forces are both elegant and easy to use. And, as it happens, OPTIONAL. Blessed useful, which is why sample Word- bound now have _SUGGESTED_ Word-Forces. But optional. See the GMG, p. 97, and scale down if you want to ditch Word-Forces. >> 3. Organize, Organize, Organize > >I trust Beth on this one. What do you trust me to do? >> 5. Get Chris Shy and Ramon Perez to be the official IN artists (silly final >> comment) > >For the most part, I do like them much better... except for Perez' >"Dominic of the thousand eyes", which I *hate*. I dunno about Chris Shy -- his art generally leaves me yawning -- but I do like Perez's. Even when I don't agree with a depiction (Dominic, yes), I can at least appreciate the care he gives it, and the detail- work. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:33:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Development... (Re: Wish List) At 9:20 PM -0600 11/29/01, David Edelstein wrote: >Perry Lloyd wrote: >> And while we're at it, why not some actual world development using >> adventures that DON'T railroad the PCs. You know, it does occur to me that this is... not possible. Why? Because if the PCs can affect the outcome, then the world is not necessarily going to develop in the way that the "canon metaplot" requires. There are some ways to work around it in a loose way, but essentially it boils down to "Here's how the world has to go, if you want to stick with the metaplot" and maybe a little box about the consequences of failing to stick with the metaplot. ("Okay, so now you're all serfs in the Rule of Technology. Here are some nice Sand in the Gears plotseeds.") So either you railroad the PCs, or else you just have the meta-plot _happen_ off-stage and the PCs have to deal with the fallout. I'm not sure I really see any other way to deal with meta-plot. My inclination is to make it nice, tidy chunks that can be taken "individually," with a paragraph here and there in future meta-plot books along the lines of, "If you let Furfur become a Prince, his people will be doing X." 32-pagers sing a siren song to me, they do. O:> (But they're probably entirely dependant on IN Anime's performance in that format.) >That would be nice, if we ever publish any more adventures. That too. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2469 ********************************