in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 4 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2471 In this digest: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other IN> Superior Soap Opera YahooGroup Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) IN> I got two Jobs! Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> I got two Jobs! Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Re: IN> Dunno what to call this... Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) Re: IN> Ethereals from Charles Phipp's perspective Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) IN> Re: Strength Scores Re: IN> A Touch of Steam Re: IN> Re: Strength Scores IN> "GANGWAY!!!!!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 20:30:36 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:17:54 -0500 [snip] >Only if the Seraph is willing to go around asking people, "Are you a >demon?" > >To which most demons know the correct response is, "Get away from me, >you creep!" > >Can't truth-read an imperative, after all. O:> Not even with a CD of 6? Or would there instead be a response of "His demeanor of shock and fear is a lie. The TRUTH of his reaction is that he is attempting to conceal that yes, he is a demon." - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 14:38:44 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other Charles Glasgow wrote: > > >From: Elizabeth McCoy > >Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other > >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:17:54 -0500 > > [snip] > >Only if the Seraph is willing to go around asking people, "Are you a > >demon?" > > > >To which most demons know the correct response is, "Get away from me, > >you creep!" > > > >Can't truth-read an imperative, after all. O:> > > Not even with a CD of 6? Or would there instead be a response of "His > demeanor of shock and fear is a lie. The TRUTH of his reaction is that he > is attempting to conceal that yes, he is a demon." Yup. In fact, it's really not that hard for various celestial powers to detect another celestial, unless the GM bends over backwards to try to obfuscate the information. (A Mercurian, Malakite, or Elohite, with a high enough check digit, will not have much trouble detecting a celestial, and they don't even have to ask any questions.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:36:41 -0500 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Ah, ah, ah...I think beyond any other, I may actually fear this one. (Okay...I don't like cockroaches, never have, never will). This was creepy in a very different way than the slavering monster way. Hey, and what do you mean they aren't a threat. Where I lived in DC and MD, they definitely competed for our food. Okay, not that they had much a chance physically, but still you got tired finding them in your food. Glad those days are far behind me. Another way of saying good job, in a creepy sort of way. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:37:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Wish List David Edelstein wrote: > What I have generally heard about INS/MV is that it's been much more > successful than IN at maintaining its orignal "style," but that the > rules are basically another mutation of a D&D knockoff, and generally > are plagued with at LEAST as many holes as IN, and probably a lot > more. From what I have heard, the original INS/MV style is a highly satirical Monty-Pythonesque one, that won't be as entertaining if you don't have the Catholic church (and perhaps specifically the French Catholic church) as a favorite punching bag. Some of SJG's "dilution" of this may well be due to a desire not to offend, but the other main component is probably a desire to reach a wider audience. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 20:38:19 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List >>Hey, go for it, people hate diversity, frankly, and the ideas of Dreams >>made >>Flesh is extremely boring. > > Yea. The Sandman series by that Gaiman fellow didn't do well at all. Nope, not at all! Absolute flop, absolute flop, I'm suprise that after a failure like that Gaiman could stand to go on. >>And besides, Ethereal beings would have to have their own cool powers, but >>no one buys supplements because of cool powers . . . or cool stories about >>the Old Gods points of view, their secret societies, or the lay out of the >>Far Marches. > > So no one bought "Liber Canticorum" or "Rev2: The Marches"? Oh, no, they sold horribly. ;) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 20:46:51 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2462 >Guys, I suggest you all check www.white-wolf.com and then go to the release >schedule. Scroll down to the bottom and cry like a baby. Cooooool . . . Maybe they'll be bringing back infernalism after all :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:57:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List At 8:23 PM -0500 12/3/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Which reminds me, any chance of getting some numbers associated with IN >Strength scores? Or is it just >"Stength 12? You're really friggin' strong, as strong as possible" >"Cool, how much can I lift" >"Uh . . . There's a strength table in the playtest files that somehow got cut from the main book. (Don't ask me, I wasn't there.) I'm keeping it in mind, but am not sure how it flows for making actual errata somewhere. Hm, lemme dig... IN NOMINE (C)1995 Steve Jackson Games "Sidebar 3.6" Encumbrance Try as you might, you can't take it all with you. You can carry up to your Strength times 10 at no penalty to your Agility. Beyond that, you lose 1 point of Agility for every increment of Strength x 10, in pounds. At zero Agility, the character is immobilized under the strain. A character cannot lift more mass in pounds than his Strength times 100. The GM should use his discretion when applying encumbrance penalties - 100 pounds of lead balls in a backpack is significantly less cumbersome than 100 pounds of feathers. Weight in Pounds Agility Penalty Up to Strength x 10 0 Strength x 20 to Strength x 30 -1 Strength x 30 to Strength x 40 -2 Strength x 40 to Strength x 50 -3 . . . etc. For example: With a Strength of 6, Paul the Soldier can carry 60 lbs. of cat food for his Gryphon without breaking a sweat. At 120 lbs., his muscles are bulging and at 180 lbs. he's noticably slower. Laboring under 600 lbs. of cat food, not only is he immobile, but he should consider getting a different pet. How does that stack up with the conversion, BTW? (We didn't refer to it for GURPS IN.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:53:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other At 8:30 PM -0500 12/3/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >>From: Elizabeth McCoy >>Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other >>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:17:54 -0500 > >[snip] >>Only if the Seraph is willing to go around asking people, "Are you a >>demon?" >> >>To which most demons know the correct response is, "Get away from me, >>you creep!" >> >>Can't truth-read an imperative, after all. O:> > >Not even with a CD of 6? Or would there instead be a response of "His >demeanor of shock and fear is a lie. The TRUTH of his reaction is that he >is attempting to conceal that yes, he is a demon." Only if he's faking shock and fear. His reaction may be anger or annoyance, after all. (And no, I wouldn't give "Because he _is_ a demon!" to a Seraph for that. Though if you did, there's still the _other_ people he's been asking...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:01:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Superior Soap Opera YahooGroup For everyone who's curious about the Superior Soap Opera: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IN-SoapOpera/ Now you can find out, without my boring everyone here who doesn't want to hear about what is, essentially, gaming war stories. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:02:48 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Only if he's faking shock and fear. His reaction may be anger or annoyance, > after all. (And no, I wouldn't give "Because he _is_ a demon!" to a > Seraph for that. Though if you did, there's still the _other_ people he's > been asking...) At a certain point, rationalizations like the above become improbable. You can't twist an angelic resonance to give everything BUT the fact that someone is a celestial, just because you don't want the PC to find out that someone is a celestial. Or rather, you can, but then the players will probably start feeling that you're jerking them around. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:24:36 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other At 3:02 PM -0600 12/3/01, David Edelstein wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> Only if he's faking shock and fear. His reaction may be anger or annoyance, >> after all. (And no, I wouldn't give "Because he _is_ a demon!" to a >> Seraph for that. Though if you did, there's still the _other_ people he's >> been asking...) > >At a certain point, rationalizations like the above become improbable. >You can't twist an angelic resonance to give everything BUT the fact >that someone is a celestial, just because you don't want the PC to find >out that someone is a celestial. Or rather, you can, but then the >players will probably start feeling that you're jerking them around. It is a good idea to figure out what stuff is going to show up, and why, ahead of time when one is GMing -- big gray area between giving someone the data on a silver platter and jerking the players around. (And if a demon is asked that on the street -- is this a newbie Seraph or is this some weirdo? A demon with experience and/or a Role might have a _perfectly_ reasonable reaction... Whereas a newbie one would stammer out, "No, of course not! Beat it!" And get nailed.) But, even if one does let a Seraph get away with that tactic -- there's likely to be a _lot_ of humans around who would react badly to someone doing that. White coats and butterfly nets badly... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:22:19 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >>From: Omentide >> >>Humanity's link with etherial spirits and deities has largely been based >>on >>respect and honour. Why else leave food out overnight or pick mushrooms >>from a meadow but never for a Faerie ring. The relationship has always >>cut >>both ways. >> > >Based on fear, superstition, and terror of the unknown, I think you mean. Based on a mixture of reverence, fear, fascination and uneasiness of the unknown, I think you mean. Have you seen some the sculpture work on some of the Churches from the Middle Ages?? Depictions of the Seven Deadly Sins to literally Frighten people into /being good/. Good Lord. Worship through fear of damnation . . .. sounds like that's more what you're alluding to, jo. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:31:22 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Question about Celestial World & other Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > But, even if one does let a Seraph get away with that tactic -- there's > likely to be a _lot_ of humans around who would react badly to someone > doing that. White coats and butterfly nets badly... Well yes, and that's why it's not a very good tactic. A Seraph who goes around asking people "Are you a demon?" will probably detect any demons he happens to run across, but the side effects will make this a self-correcting problem, from the GM's point of view... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:31:00 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) From: "Perry Lloyd" > > Have you seen some the sculpture work on some of the Churches from the > Middle Ages?? Depictions of the Seven Deadly Sins to literally Frighten > people into /being good/. Since fear already motivated people toward giving offerings to the Fair Folk, the Church went with what worked. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:07:47 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >From: "Perry Lloyd" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:22:19 > > >>>From: Omentide >>> >>>Humanity's link with etherial spirits and deities has largely been based >>>on >>>respect and honour. Why else leave food out overnight or pick mushrooms >>>from a meadow but never for a Faerie ring. The relationship has always >>>cut >>>both ways. >>> >> >>Based on fear, superstition, and terror of the unknown, I think you mean. > >Based on a mixture of reverence, fear, fascination and uneasiness of the >unknown, I think you mean. > >Have you seen some the sculpture work on some of the Churches from the >Middle Ages?? Depictions of the Seven Deadly Sins to literally Frighten >people into /being good/. Good Lord. Worship through fear of damnation . >. >. sounds like that's more what you're alluding to, jo. > Same difference. Medieval church superstition and pagan superstition aren't that far removed. There is also, however a notion that 'thou shalt love the lord thy God' which doesn't much enter into dealings with the fair folk. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 23:18:33 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >Uh, right. How would you know this, even assuming such things actually >existed? Talked to any brownies lately? Oh come on. And when did you last meet an angel or Yah***? This is plain silly, and to be frank we have been down this line before. If you and some others want to this of the Sidhe, Odin, Apollo and others as selfish and dangerous who am I to stop you. Of course in the dogma of IN statements from Heaven will be portrayed this way. Maybe it should be left as heavenly dogma, just as demons have the great lie about promises of power, this is the lie of Heaven and its agents in their continued attempt to crush other beliefs and bag souls for its cause. Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 23:18:42 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) David > > Never said they were morally equivalent. There is a difference > between> needing souls and how and why they are used. > > >Nowhere in canon is it implied that Heaven NEEDS souls. Indeed, the >angels were doing just fine without humanity. Hell needs souls, because >they don't have the Symphonic connection that Heaven does. Angels >receive Essence from the Symphony; demons have to beg, borrow or steal >it. And it is not stated that Heaven does not. Demons also get essence from the symphony just at a different time of the day. I know you may not like the model or the idea that both heaven and hell are dependant on humanity in similar ways. It does in many ways make the game far more gritty, it gives the war real reason and purpose, neither side dare lose on the corporeal. In my experience both as a player and as a Mib doing demos for players and talking to punters this idea is actually very popular, far more so than the rather fluffy or dogmatic Heaven is always good and hell is bad concept. Equally you may not like the "They are not like us" conjecture but to be frank angels are demons are not like us. They are not human, they are not driven by human motivations. Whether angel or demon they are driven by their divine nature, humans are not divine. Once again this concept seems to be popular. If this model works and sells product who are we to complain. Certainly not me. Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:32:59 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) > >Nowhere in canon is it implied that Heaven NEEDS souls. Indeed, the > >angels were doing just fine without humanity. Hell needs souls, because > >they don't have the Symphonic connection that Heaven does. Angels > >receive Essence from the Symphony; demons have to beg, borrow or steal > >it. > > And it is not stated that Heaven does not. Demons also get essence from > the symphony just at a different time of the day. I dunno. Unless you are interested in validating Ethereal deities and delegitimizing Heaven, I wouldn't go down this route. Fortunately, few of my players are interested in inflicting their own personal religious beliefs on In Nomine. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:38:08 -0800 From: Daiv Subject: IN> I got two Jobs! And no sooner did i get the second (work at home tech support tech writer right hand man) than did a friend of mine find out that Excite@home is going to lay her off pretty soon. Without getting anyone in trouble, I think it is safe and legal to say that E@H is in trouble. This is the friend who got me a job there, a year and change ago. I got laid off from there this past may, been looking ever since. So. OB IN. Uhm... Does the angle of Unemployemnt serve Wind (taking away that which is not needed), Stone (trials make you stronger) or Destiny (find a better job...)? -Daiv - -- hammer and anvil fire sweat breath and iron forge a destiny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:46:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) At 11:18 PM +0000 12/3/01, Omentide wrote: >David [...] >>Nowhere in canon is it implied that Heaven NEEDS souls. [...] > >And it is not stated that Heaven does not. [...] You're both right. And it's unlikely to _be_ stated, at least insofar as the Higher Heavens are concerned (and a lot of humans go there, _don't_ they, hmmmmm?), if not the Lower Heavens. > Demons also get essence from >the symphony just at a different time of the day. Or else they get it from all the humans herded into the Lower Hells, by the grace of Lucifer. Which is neither stated nor contradicted. And is unlikely to be so. (So, er, will people please stop arguing "what canon says" when canon _doesn't_ say one way or the other, leaving both interpretations PERFECTLY valid.*) (*If not straight -- from potential implicit contradiction in other areas -- then with minimal twiddling.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 23:47:38 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> I got two Jobs! >From: Daiv >Subject: IN> I got two Jobs! >Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:38:08 -0800 >And no sooner did i get the second (work at home tech support tech >writer right hand man) than did a friend of mine find out that >Excite@home is going to lay her off pretty soon. Without getting >anyone in trouble, I think it is safe and legal to say that E@H is in >trouble. Excite@Home is *dead*. They shut down my service (and that of 850,000 or so other people) this Saturday. I'm living off of public library access while AT&T Cable scrambles to rewire things to pick up my connection at some time in the next 2-10 days. She's bankrupt, Jim. ObIN -- so, which Superior would be plotting to have an ISP go bankrupt? Asmodeus, to show how one court decision can materially inconvenience hundreds of thousands of people? Kobal, just for giggles? Mammon, liquidating the Excite@Home business as part of his general bankruptcy problem? Jean/Dominic, to shut down a Vapulan front company? Eli, because too many people are "like Internet-addicted zombies, man" and he wants to give a few hundred thousand of them a few days off to rediscover sunshine and trees? Novalis, same thing? *shrug* - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:09:29 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List > IN NOMINE > You can carry up to your Strength times 10 at no penalty to your > Agility. > A character cannot lift more mass in pounds than his > Strength times 100. >How does that stack up with the conversion, BTW? (We didn't refer to it >for GURPS IN.) Lessee... 1 point of IN strength allows you to carry 10 pounds easy, and lift 100. 1 point of IN strength converts to roughly 2 points of GURPS strength... mmm, this isn't converting absolutely. Here's a couple of thresholds(read table with a monospaced font): IN Strength (converts to) GURPS ST IN No-En IN Lift G No-En G Lift* 1 4 10 100 8 100 2 6 20 200 12 150 3 8 30 300 16 200 4 10 40 400 20 250 5 12 50 500 24 300 6 14 60 600 28 350 7 16 70 700 32 400 8 18 80 800 36 450 9 20 90 900 40 500 10 22 100 1000 44 550 * No-En, standing for No Encumbrance refers to the amount of material this character can lift without losing Agility or taking a Move penalty. Lift refers to the maximum a character can lift by themself(presumably two-handed). It looks like, with these formulae, an IN character is much stronger than their converted GURPS counterpart. There may be some differences in between these two extremes, as the IN system gives finer gradations of movement for anyone with an Agility greater than four; but for the most part, it should apply. William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:24:13 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > archiel > kyriotate friend of beasts > angel of cockroaches Moe, I do believe that e.e. cummings is smiling down from Heaven at you. I know I'm smiling here. 0:> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:28:07 -0800 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Uhm... you do know that archibald the cockroach is not, in fact, a creation of e e cummings, right? there is a similarity of style but that is because, as a cockroach, archy can only hit one key at a time. so, he cannot do shift key to make capital letters. me? just lazy. :=) >--- Maurice Lane wrote: >> archiel >> kyriotate friend of beasts >> angel of cockroaches > > Moe, I do believe that e.e. cummings is smiling down from >Heaven at you. I know I'm smiling here. 0:> > >===== >Michael Walton, #9805-068 > "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. >http://shopping.yahoo.com - -- hammer and anvil fire sweat breath and iron forge a destiny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:34:16 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Omentide wrote: > And it is not stated that Heaven does not. Demons also get essence from > the symphony just at a different time of the day. The inference is pretty clear, but it is vague enough that you can reinterpret it as you like for your campaign. > I know you may not like the model or the idea that both heaven and hell are > dependant on humanity in similar ways. If you mean in real life, I have no feelings on the matter, not believing in either one. If you mean in the game, what I like doesn't factor into this; I'm giving you my reading of the In Nomine universe, based on what I understand of canon. (And while I'm not an official canon arbitrator, I am very rarely wrong. :)) The above model is not specifically and explicitly prohibited in canon, you're correct. But an awful lot of things don't make much sense if you use that model. > It does in many ways make the game> far more gritty, it gives the war real reason and purpose, neither side > dare lose on the corporeal. This assumes that "serving God and promoting the destiny of the Symphony" is not a "real reason and purpose," from the angelic point of view. You seem to assume that only survival and amassing power would qualify. > In my experience both as a player and as a Mib > doing demos for players and talking to punters this idea is actually very > popular, far more so than the rather fluffy or dogmatic Heaven is always > good and hell is bad concept. Umm....the "fluffy dogmatic Heaven is always good and Hell is bad" concept is orthogonal to the above issue; you could use that concept or not with or without that model. Heaven could be all fluffy bunnies and still depend on humans for Essence. Heaven could be all tyrannical bloodletting angels of fiery wrath and not need human Essence at all. > Equally you may not like the "They are not like us" conjecture Where do you get that idea? I think how much "they are like us" is an interesting question, and one worthy of exploration in any In Nomin game. > but to be> frank angels are demons are not like us. They are not human, they are not > driven by human motivations. Whether angel or demon they are driven by > their divine nature, humans are not divine. Once again this concept seems > to be popular. Actually, I have been a proponent of that concept, moreso than some of the other authors. > If this model works and sells product who are we to complain. Certainly > not me. I fail to see how your personal preferences correspond to marketability. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:36:55 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) Omentide wrote: > > >Uh, right. How would you know this, even assuming such things actually > >existed? Talked to any brownies lately? > > Oh come on. And when did you last meet an angel or Yah***? Never. I place them all in the same category. :) > If you and some others want to this of the Sidhe, Odin, Apollo and others > as selfish and dangerous who am I to stop you. Well, Apollo being selfish is pretty well supported in Greek mythology. Odin isn't such a nice guy in a lot of Norse myths either, and the Sidhe range from benevolent to capricious to downright nasty, going by Celtic mythology. > Of course in the dogma of IN statements from Heaven will be portrayed this > way. Maybe it should be left as heavenly dogma, just as demons have the > great lie about promises of power, this is the lie of Heaven and its agents > in their continued attempt to crush other beliefs and bag souls for its cause. Certainly there are ethereals who believe that. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:35:20 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? My responses to these comments: - --- Rolland Therrien wrote: > -Resonnances should be more versatile I disagree. Having Resonances simple and basic is, IMO, an excellent feature. But I admit that this is a mere difference of opinion. > -Songs: The Songs should, in my opinion, be redefined > along more basic, Universal themes. I rather like the current system, but I do see room for improvement. > Likewise, Angels of > each Superior should have a Song of Choice, either > created by their Superior > or Favored by him/her. You could call those Favored > Songs (automatically > known at basic level by Servitors, free of charge) their > Word's "Leitmotiv" (to preserve the Musical theme) I like this better than the bonus rule in LC. That was too much bookkeeping for me. > Oh, and just as a side note: How about writing down the > songs with Latin > Titles, for added flavor? Because it's not really appropriate. Why would Heaven use Latin? Why would Hell, for that matter? Celestials would know the Songs by their names in Angelic and Helltongue; the names in the books are merely translations. Even if naming the Songs in an earthly language other than English were desireable, Latin doesn't fit the flavors of all Superiors. I can see Laurence and Dominic preferring Latin, but Blandine would probably go with French, Khalid would use Arabic or Farsi, Saminga would use Kemetic, Lilith might stick with her native tongue of Proto-Aryan, etc. Christopher might even use Pig Latin (a language invented by children) and Jordi wouldn't use any Human language. > -The Eden Ban I don't really care for this idea, myself. > -No Hearts I see this one as a big mistake -- Hearts are too integral to the existing flavor of the game. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:39:46 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dunno what to call this... - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Hellburners [shudder] ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:52:28 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) If something like this has been done before, I don't remember it (which only proves the fallibility of my memory). Interesting concept, it is. I have difficulty seeing it as a Destiny for one simple reason. Destiny (as I see it) isn't about ultimately serving the cause of Heaven. It's about what it would take to guarantee that that individual gets into Heaven. Likewise, meeting one's Fate doesn't necessarily do much for Hell beyond insuring that the individual goes there. By that standard, the girl's Dark Destiny would actually be her Fate -- but allowing her to meet her Fate would serve the cause of Heaven. That in itself is an interesting moral dilemma to throw at PC's. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:57:52 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals from Charles Phipp's perspective - --- damienw@juno.com wrote: > Also, I don't think the final status of etherials to > humanity has ever > been made completely canon in IN The Marches clearly shows that not all Ethereals are parasites. Some of them -- notably the Primal Spirits -- have little or no dealings with Humans. It's only the Pagan Spirits and certain Dream Elements that actively prey on Humans. > (even non-god spirits like Genus Loci) I believe you mean Genius Loci, yes? > Of course, this doesn't explain etherials who might > have existed before > humanity... but then, are all such spirits formed just by > *human* dreams? Nope. Animals dream, too, and some Primals are the products of such dreams. And I seem to remember a reference to the dreams of plants somewhere, but that may be random neurons firing in my brain. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "A lot of comedy is tragedy plus time." -- Carol Burnett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 02:14:45 +0000 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals (was Wish List) >I dunno. Unless you are interested in validating Ethereal deities and >delegitimizing Heaven, I wouldn't go down this route. Fortunately, few of >my players are interested in inflicting their own personal religious beliefs >on In Nomine. My beliefs!!! I think not. IN is a game, it is not life, I know the difference. Frankly my beliefs have nothing to do with this list and I have no intention of discussing them. What I have been reporting and saying is what seems to attract players. As a MiB I consider that part of my role. Ashley MIB 6660 What do you want? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:26:00 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Strength Scores > Which reminds me, any chance of getting some numbers associated with IN > Strength scores? Or is it just > "Stength 12? You're really friggin' strong, as strong as possible" > "Cool, how much can I lift" > "Uh . . . Given that the GM decides how much items way, why bother including figures for either? When describing stats to players, I start by saying "1 is pathetic, even for human, 2 is bad, 3-4 covers human average, 5-7 covers normal professionals, 8 is Olympic athlete, 9 a Gold Medallist. Humans with a stat of 10 are either drug enhanced, Symphonically Aware or the best in their field; stats of 11 or 12 are superhuman." My players and I then seem to have the same idea of what can be done with a stat when I use this spiel. Cheers, James. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 05:18:31 +0000 From: "Jonathan Walton" Subject: Re: IN> A Touch of Steam >A nit-pick: Vapula is hell-born, not falled from Heaven, >according to the main book. Yeah, that's why it's alternate history ;) For my Steampunk PBeM, I only changed two things: 1. Jean dies fighting Legion (instead of Raphael) 2. Vapula was once an angel The end result is Steampunk IN, since Jean isn't around to oppose Vapula or support electricity-based technologies. And Vapula gets to pull a Valefor and steal the secrets of the steam engine from the Halls of Progress (right before he Falls). Later. Jonathan http://www.phoenyx.net/deusx/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:07:34 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Strength Scores >1 is pathetic, even for >human, 2 is bad, 3-4 covers human average, Personally, I've always treated 2-4 as human average, since the stats of a mundane usually fall within that range. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:25:21 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> "GANGWAY!!!!!" Granted, trying to /game/ this one would be a stone cold SOB, but it'd be an interesting sight to see, methinks. I offer it in that light. :) Moe Kyrio Tag This is _the_ sport among Kyriotates: a new-fledged Domination will play it constantly, in much the same way that many human children grow up playing baseball or soccer. Few of the Choir ever lose the taste for playing it: it's both fun and excellent practice. The simple version requires two or more Kyriotates, a target area in which to play and several 'balls' (which can be any item that is both distinctive and not too heavy). The rules are likewise simple: each Kyriotates' 'ball' must be carried from the starting area to a designated home base. The wrinkle is, each player must possess a fixed number of entities (usually 10 to 20) along the way - each of which has to carry the ball for between one to five minutes. The first player to get there with a ball (and without dissonance) wins. A very dry explanation ... but it doesn't even begin to describe the rush involved. The home base is usually chosen (with malice aforethought) to be difficult to reach normally - and there's usually no time for careful planning. Find a host going part of the way, track down another with the pigeon you're using as a scout, intercept the new host, switch in a quick flurry of resonance, then bug out and look for another ride ... all without making anyone suspicious, or yourself dissonant. When done properly, you can sometimes get a glimpse of what it's like to be an Ofanite; when done improperly, well, you could end up anywhere, quite thoroughly lost. Still, it's addictive. The Great Race Needless to say, little piddling trips around town are fine for the newly fledged, but more experienced Dominations require something a bit more ... challenging. The Great Race does nicely in this regard. Held once a year (on a different continent each time), it is the elite example of Kyrio Tag: every Archangel sponsors at least one team, as does several of the larger Heavenly groups. Betting on the outcome is, of course, strictly forbidden. Of course. The rules are somewhat different: 1). Instead of one Kyriotate per ball, there are three. The ball must not advance unless it is in the personal possession of at least one of the Kyriotates. 2). Hosts may be kept indefinitely, so long as no dissonance is gathered. 3). The distance of the Race may be no less than three thousand miles, and must have at least one viable land route. 4). The ball may not be an artifact of any kind. 5). The ball must be on the corporeal plane at all times. A ball in a Scabbard is not on the corporeal plane, so don't even try. 6). Flight of any kind (for the players and/or the ball) is strictly forbidden, with one exception (see next paragraph). This includes (but is not limited to) airplanes, helicopters, kites, gliders, circus cannons, being put in a Superior's pocket and carried along, slingshots, siege engines, mass drivers, being drop kicked by a Superior into the next county, any form of transportation that utilizes matter/energy conversion, Tethers, any Song of Motion, Numinous Corpus: Wings, the Space Shuttle or the Archangel of Creation. There will be Seraphim Archangels checking on this, by the way. Use of naturally flying organic entities _is_ acceptable, provided that the entity would be capable of carrying the ball unaided and will not provoke undue comment while doing so. The use of extinct animals is strictly forbidden. 7). Each team may call upon help from Servitors of their Word. Such aid may not consist of any action that would break any of the other Rules, or any action designed to hinder another team. Examples of prohibited actions include (but are not limited to) roadblocks, legal proceedings, the appearance of the Inquisition, sudden shifts in the weather, rains/plagues of rats or any other animal, free beer, Superior Invocations, juicy targets, difficult ethical choices, process servers, inquisitive journalists, convenient patsies, large amounts of disturbance or the Archangel of Creation. See Rule 6 for a reminder about the verification methods. However, the above Rule does not apply to the team itself. 8). The first member of a team to get to the home base area with its ball wins. Victories may be shared by up to three teams. All team members must be without dissonance, or else suffer disqualification (among other things). 9). Have fun. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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