in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 5 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2473 In this digest: Re: IN> Development... (Re: Wish List) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Re: IN> Gadget Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Re: IN> Wish List Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) IN> Resonance CD tables... (Re: Time for a 2nd Edition?) Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? IN> Divinite/Inhuman scale correction IN> Divinite/Inhuman scale correction Re: IN> Divinite/Inhuman scale correction Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) IN> The Sentence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 10:42:55 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Development... (Re: Wish List) > >Perry Lloyd wrote: > >> And while we're at it, why not some actual world development using > >> adventures that DON'T railroad the PCs. > >You know, it does occur to me that this is... not possible. > >Why? Because if the PCs can affect the outcome, then the world is not >necessarily going to develop in the way that the "canon metaplot" >requires. ha ha ha, there's another option, you know. It's the most obvious option, most obvious to those who have read any of the adventures in the original European game : the investigation. The PCs are sent in to investigate a situation, in doing so the metaplot is revealed to them and they uncover knowledge that will some day be common knowledge about how the game world was developed. No, of course the PCs won't be able to "decide the fate" of the events taking place, but at least they were there for the ride! >So either you railroad the PCs, or else you just have the meta-plot >_happen_ off-stage and the PCs have to deal with the fallout. Sounds pretty likely anyway, given the sheer power of the Superiors (you want us to stop Baal? us? uh, no thanks) >32-pagers sing a siren song to me, they do. O:> (But they're probably >entirely dependant on IN Anime's performance in that format.) Yeah. I just got GURPS Mecha, in preparation for IN Anime. Also, at least two of my players -really- want a copy of it . . . :) So, that's a good sign. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 10:57:53 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) >I know you may not like the model or the idea that both heaven and hell are >dependant on humanity in similar ways. In my experience both as a >player and as a Mib >doing demos for players and talking to punters this idea is actually very >popular, far more so than the rather fluffy or dogmatic Heaven is always >good and hell is bad concept. [to Elizabeth and others "in charge"] Which reminds me . . . what kind of system does SJGames emply to get an idea of what it is in their product that people like and would like to see strengthed/broadened/explored? Is it just the mailing lists/discussion boards/encounters at conventions, etc. ? or are the actually questionairres that people can fill out and provide feedback to the people designing the games? I just feel like In Nomine might have a better shot if SJGames did some polling and statistics gathering, not just among the people already buying IN products, but those buying other people's products as well . . . A simple questionairre to the WoD fans about what they're hoping to see in Demon: the Fallen might be a good way to do some information gathering . . . Just a thought. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:56:44 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List - ------------------------- IN NOMINE (C)1995 Steve Jackson Games "Sidebar 3.6" Encumbrance Try as you might, you can't take it all with you. You can carry up to your Strength times 10 at no penalty to your Agility. Beyond that, you lose 1 point of Agility for every increment of Strength x 10, in pounds. At zero Agility, the character is immobilized under the strain. A character cannot lift more mass in pounds than his Strength times 100. The GM should use his discretion when applying encumbrance penalties - 100 pounds of lead balls in a backpack is significantly less cumbersome than 100 pounds of feathers. Weight in Pounds Agility Penalty Up to Strength x 10 0 Strength x 20 to Strength x 30 -1 Strength x 30 to Strength x 40 -2 Strength x 40 to Strength x 50 -3 Strength x 50 to Strength x 60 -4 Strength x 60 to Strength x 70 -5 Strength x 70 to Strength x 80 -6 Strength x 80 to Strength x 90 -7 Strength x 90 to Strength x 100 -8 For example: With a Strength of 6, Paul the Soldier can carry 60 lbs. of cat food for his Gryphon without breaking a sweat. At 120 lbs., his muscles are bulging and at 180 lbs. he's noticably slower. Laboring under 600 lbs. of cat food, not only is he immobile, but he should consider getting a different pet. - -------------------------------- average angel: strength 6, agility 6 (ST 14) max IN lift: 600lbs (6x100lbs), max GURPS lift: 350lbs (STx25), tho w/ extra-effort: 840lbs (spending 14 fatigue :) Interesting, so only a character with agility of at least 9 would be able to MOVE while encumbered by her full lift load. Thus, a strength orientated character with strength 8 and agility 4, could move carrying up to 400lbs, and an agility orientated character with strength 4 and agility 8 could move carrying up to 360lbs. So, strength orientation wins out, but only barely. 600lbs for Paul the Soldier . . . in GURPS, assuming he's holding that cat-food on his back, he'd have ST 20 (using GIN conversion rules). If that's his lift with two hands, he'd have ST 24. Not bad for a lowly Soldier! This, of course, assumes that Paul is lifting this cat food pretty easily. If Paul's using extra effort, as the description seems to indicate, then assumuing he is spending 10 fatigue points, he could lift the 600lbs with only ST 10/11 (tho he'd faint from exhaustion pretty quickly and couldn't maintain it for long. In IN it seems that you can -lift- things very easily, just can't move with it very well . . . that and there's no system for getting tired (which makes sense, Angels don't tire, do they? :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:29:11 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? >From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > > > Ah, just remembered -- that was originally how the things > > worked, IIRC. No Choir/Band Attunements -- just Songs. I > > should dig out that playtest thing... > >The original playtest (back when Illuminati Online was still a BBS local to >Austin) didn't have choirs or bands at all, and all a PC's powers were >rolled randomly, like in the original French game. and I'm guessing the panty-waisted playtested whined "I don't have enough control over my character concept" "Why can't I have the powers I want to have?" "It doesn't make any sense for my character to have this power." In INSMV 3rd ed, you get to pick one of your powers AND your Word which determines other powers you'll likely get, deal with it. Look at D&D, heck AD&D, you didn't get to pick half your crap you had to choose from in those games, you just picked a race and a class and ran with your options from there. Sometimes life isn't fair and that one of the joys in life is using what the dice gave you to your benefit. Just like in real life. Hey! I was born with a permanent life-threatening medical condition! Hey! Some people are born without all of their limbs, and you're complaining because you don't have TOTAL control over your character? It worked for Gary and the French game has been going strong for over a decade now, so . . . but they're probably all wrong. (Players hate surprises or having odd things thrown at them, you know.) I'll tell what one of the big problems with IN is: lack of stat development. Yeah! You can choose to start off with all your skills and songs at 6 (not that many, but) and then what? Then you're unhappy because when you get your pittance of XP you can't improve anything so you have to buy something at a crappy low-level. Well, in D&D and INSMV, you don't have that problem, you start off crappy and have to hack, role-play and survive your way up to the top. I think that's what In Nomine lacks. Instead of being able to enjoy developing skills and songs, we are constantly looking for MORE Songs, and MORE skills, MORE attunements, because they're so bleeding easy to increase in level (and you're pretty much forced to buy your powers at a high level anyway, b/c you combine them with your Forces, pleh). I say use a friggin chart akin to INSMV 3rd ed., it allows the humans to be *playable* , Songs to be useful even at low levels AND leaving the precious "CD" to remain just as wild and unrelated to your skill level! http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/insmv/umtablepercents.html Oh, but we can't use a chart, that's too complicated. Well, if looking up ONE number on the chart ONCE is too complicated, phooey. Other than that, only the GM has to look at the chart on his game screen (or photocopy or whatever). It's no worse than having to flip through the IN book to look up the resonance results charts every 5 minutes (thank you so much for the chart summary page in the back of GIN!!!) ahem. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:52:56 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List 'cause these reinforce the silly notion > > that powers should be limited by choir/band and one's nature. > >Well, since the concept of Choirs/Bands and powers reflecting one's >nature is a core element in the setting, I couldn't very well write the >rules otherwise.  understood. :) >Yes, this effectively makes In Nomine a "class-based" game. If you don't >like that, GURPS In Nomine will allow you to mix'n'match resonances with >a little fiddling, but it will change the game a great deal. ah . . . not really, as I'm thinking mostly of attunements here. A computer hacker who serves Janus who's able to transform himself into electricty and escape through the electrical outlet (Ofanite of Jean attunement), this doesn't seem unreasonable. Anyone having Danger Sense (Malakite of War attunement), doesn't seem outlandish. The ability to have hands that burn anything I touch? Seems appropriate for agents of Michael, Belial, and Asmodeus, as well as Malakim of Fire . . . why can't vampires turn to mist? Oh, right, because only Shedim of Theft can . . . >(Though I have been thinking for a while of writing a variant allowing >angels and demons -- especially demons -- to be more varied, rather than >confining them to a limited range of archetypes.) Hey, I'd LOVE to see it done. > > to see some of the powers from the original European game, I suggest > > emailing my about joining the insmvPBeM . . . in the archives is a list >of > > the names of the powers, and we'll be seeing some of those powers used >in > > game play. :) > >What I have generally heard about INS/MV is that it's been much more >successful than IN at maintaining its orignal "style," but that the >rules are basically another mutation of a D&D knockoff, and generally >are plagued with at LEAST as many holes as IN, and probably a lot more. > >-David It seems no more of a knock off than In Nomine, V:TM or Shadowrun to me . . .. : Race: human, elf, dwarf, vampire, angel, soldier, mummy Class: Rigger, Druid, Shaman, of Fire, of War, Brujah, Tremere magical weapons and armor magical powers available only to certain classes and races Yeah, insmv does tend to be combat and **mystery** orientated, like D&D with it's dungeons and puzzles, I have to admit. Then again, it *is* based around the battle/war between Good and Evil. It doesn't get into as much philosophical discussion about what is Good and what is Evil, because that's all essentially laid out (or is it?). The game seems to be mostly about doing your job well, discovering the Truth about/behind the politics, and kicking some ass along the way. That and discovering what your Superiors *don't* want you to know, possibly hanging out with the enemy, and then getting ambused by the Third Force . . . stupid Psis with their instant Heart-attacks and pyrokinetic abilities. :P - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:13:37 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List insmv > > [is] plagued with at LEAST as many holes as IN, and probably a lot > > more. ummm . . . not that I've noticed, what with the 3rd edition and all. Those seem to be all tied up, I guess. Also, they don't have a half-baked "Symphony" "Not the Force, really" concept to be bothered with, nor do they need/have a metaphysical basis for the powers. They're just "magical" and happen. Also, without the highly artificial structure of Forces to limit them, there's no real cap on your Essence pool and your characteristics can arranged any which way. And since the powers aren't really based on your innate nature (except for ONE Word-specific ability), you have a much wider (though more scattered) selection of powers. (156 available to all starting characters, tho selection is random at first, powers may be hand picked later in the game, GM willing) >INS/MV style [a] satirical Monty-Pythonesque one, that won't be as >entertaining >if you don't have the Catholic church (and perhaps specifically >the French Catholic church) as a favorite punching bag. > >Some of SJG's "dilution" of this may well be due to a desire not >to offend, but the other main component is probably a desire to >reach a wider audience. Admittedly, this is true, though it has its benefits and its drawbacks. One major drawback is that for non-Catholics, a lot of the subtle (and not so subtle) humor will be lost. One major benefit is that the game draws upon biblical stories to fuel its adventures (four horsemen anyone? Perhaps we shall do battle with Seth, whose grown in power in the Intermediate Planes?) Not that many of the French themselves get many of the culturally catholic references, but enough do. As I've been told, to create an INSMV adventure is easy: pick something trival, maybe even silly, from the Bible. Then, make it dark, sinister (to the PCs) and potent. Go from there. Examples: uh, well, I don't crap about the bible, so . . . how about Sampson's hair. Let's say that its been discovered by a group of humans who have starting using its magical properties. Let's say they turned into a wig, and that the wearer of the wig is nearly invincible. This is causing a problem. Now, Heaven is only aware of the problems being caused and Yves has asked Dominic to do something about it, so Dominic nudges Laurence, who draws together a team of Angels (the PCs) to go check it out. They investigate, and once they figure out what's going on, have to decide what to do in order to get the potent magical item out of the humans' possession. Of course, to make matters worse, Hell wants to control this potent magical item, so its sent its own agents - a team of Demons. Eventually, one team will get to the humans first, and then they're be some fighting and/or some attempts at negociation/trading. They may even have to deal with the mortal authorities depending on how they handle the situation. So, there ya go. Throw that against a backdrop of the Angels of Cultures battling Food Lords in a 3rd world country and *bang* instant insmv scenario - - a starting with the story of Sampson and his cool hair. It was Sampson, right? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 09:26:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> new npc for the list [literary reference] Michael Walton wrote: > Moe, I do believe that e.e. cummings is smiling down from > Heaven at you. I know I'm smiling here. 0:> For the record, archy the cockroach is the creation of Don Marquis, back in the '20s and '30s. One night, Mr. Marquis left a blank sheet of paper in his typewriter, and the next morning he found a message, in blank verse, with no capitals. It came from archy, who is the reincarnation of a verse libre poet, but who was, in his current state, too light to operate the shift key on a typewriter (non-electric, of course). See: http://www.sfo.com/~batt/archy/ and http://208.56.153.48/donmarquis/ To bring this back to IN, having a verse libre poet reincarnate as a cockroach is perfectly possible in that setting. You could even bring him into the present day by having him be working on his 87th cockroach incarnation. (Some people are slow learners. Or stubborn.) Having him remember his former life might require a bit of a tweak, but nothing Eli or Yves couldn't pull off, and archy's personality could well have annoyed either of them *just* enough... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:42:08 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Gadget That guy who won the Darwin Award for the jet-propelled backpack with skates, right? (And "inherent and learned Celestial abilities" doesn't have to mean just Songs and Attunements. Almost anything could apply here, including but not limited to: increased agility, strength, and hit points; Malakite immunity to Trauma, Celestials not making noise when they die ...) Janet Anderson * * * * And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities ... Isaiah 61:4 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:45:45 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Wish List From: "Perry Lloyd" > > Also, they don't have a half-baked "Symphony" "Not the > Force, really" concept to be bothered with Both the Symphony and the Force draw upon the pantheistic concept of God being incarnate in all of reality. (And yes, it was Sampson.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:14:42 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? Perry Lloyd wrote: > and I'm guessing the panty-waisted playtested whined > "I don't have enough control over my character concept" > "Why can't I have the powers I want to have?" > "It doesn't make any sense for my character to have this power." > > In INSMV 3rd ed, you get to pick one of your powers AND your Word which> determines other powers you'll likely get, deal with it. > Look at D&D, heck AD&D, you didn't get to pick half your crap you had to> choose from in those games, you just picked a race and a class and ran with> your options from there. I'm reminded of the Grumpy Old Man from SNL. "We were bald. miserable, and starving, and we LIKED it, dammit!" - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:20:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Wish List Prodigal wrote: > Both the Symphony and the Force draw upon the pantheistic concept > of God being incarnate in all of reality. Well, eventually. The main book discusses the Symphony and all, but we never get any indication of pantheism until the extended write-ups of Yves and Kronos, after which it is seldom, if ever, heard from again. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:52:40 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) Perry Lloyd wrote: > > >Dominic's attention is redirected to the Seraph once more "please, > >continue." > >"Thank you, my Lord. Her Destiny is to unite the world... in suffering and > >subjugation under her iron fist." > > not a sound can be heard. Nothing, no shuffling, no rustling > >of > >papers, nothing. > >"...are you... certain?" asks Dominic carefully > >Yves lifts his head and says "yes, Dominic, he *is* certain, as am I" > >"If that's her Destiny, then what the Hell is her Fate?" blurts Janus, then > >coughs... "sorry about the language" > > I don't see what the problem is quite frankly. To rule with an iron fist, I > thought that just meant to rule while maintaining a stranglehold on all > those who might oppose you. You're right (at least arguably). Now how about the terms "suffering and subjugation"? - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:06:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Resonance CD tables... (Re: Time for a 2nd Edition?) At 12:29 PM -0500 12/5/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: [...] >the resonance results charts every 5 minutes (thank you so much for the >chart summary page in the back of GIN!!!) Here's one better. The "sample page" on the _GIN_ book... uses the core _IN_ resonance tables. I.e., it uses check digits, not degree of success. (Unless someone fixed that last time I looked.) http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/in-nomine/ , check under Exerpts. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:03:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List At 11:56 AM -0500 12/5/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: [...] > For example: With a Strength of 6, Paul the Soldier can carry 60 lbs. of > cat food for his Gryphon without breaking a sweat. At 120 lbs., his > muscles are bulging and at 180 lbs. he's noticably slower. Laboring > under 600 lbs. of cat food, not only is he immobile, but he should > consider getting a different pet. >-------------------------------- [...] >In IN it seems that you can -lift- things very easily, just can't move with >it very well . . . that and there's no system for getting tired (which makes >sense, Angels don't tire, do they? :) Celestials have the Doesn't Fatigue advantage, I believe, yes... Sounds like this is a bit of extra information which is also a bit complex. That may be why it was trimmed out of the draft I got. That, or it was a victim of word-count. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:00:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) At 10:57 AM -0500 12/5/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: [...] >[to Elizabeth and others "in charge"] >Which reminds me . . . what kind of system does SJGames emply to get an idea >of what it is in their product that people like and would like to see >strengthed/broadened/explored? SJGames is pretty close-mouthed about their market research. I _gather_ from some comments made, hm, over on .general (Pyramid discussion board) that SJGames has a private market-research company/person/something that feeds the data to SJ. And, of course, the sales figures of pre-existing material. I listen to stuff too, of course -- that's how the Superiors books got _started_ in the first place. Great mass demand. (Well, relatively speaking.) Likewise, the EPG arose from a certain amount of "I want more about ethereals" discussion. But right now, sales figures are probably what is being looked at most. Which is why I'm hoping IN Anime sells through impressively. O:> >A simple questionairre to the WoD fans about what they're hoping to see in >Demon: the Fallen might be a good way to do some information gathering . . . Maybe -- but how does one manage to sneak the poll onto WW's site, and thence back to SJGames.com...? O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:09:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) Kish wrote: > > Perry Lloyd wrote: > > > > I don't see what the problem is quite frankly. To rule with an > > iron fist, I thought that just meant to rule while maintaining a > > stranglehold on all those who might oppose you. > > You're right (at least arguably). Now how about the terms "suffering > and subjugation"? Well, let's see. Maybe her destiny is to pull the human race together to successfully weather a terrible crisis, and weathering it will NOT be pleasant for anyone. If she doesn't achieve it, though, the outcome is still markedly LESS pleasant. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:11:18 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) >that SJGames has a private market-research company/person/something that >feeds the data to SJ. hrm. Well, they need to do a better job. (As though I have the right to say that, ha!) >And, of course, the sales figures of pre-existing material. of course. Likewise, the EPG arose from a certain amount of "I want >more about ethereals" discussion. damn straight. Ethereals are the bomb, they are very open ended (or so it seems) which makes them potentially whatever the GM wants them to be without upsetting the overall structure of the game much. :) >But right now, sales figures are probably what is being looked at most. >Which is why I'm hoping IN Anime sells through impressively. O:> I'll be doing my part. > >A simple questionairre to the WoD fans about what they're hoping to see >in > >Demon: the Fallen might be a good way to do some information gathering . >. . > >Maybe -- but how does one manage to sneak the poll onto WW's site, and >thence back to SJGames.com...? O;> Well, a private individual could do it, no? I don't really have the time, myself . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:20:48 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Dark Destiny... yeah that's right, not Victory :) > > I don't see what the problem is quite frankly. To rule with an iron >fist, I > > thought that just meant to rule while maintaining a stranglehold on all > > those who might oppose you. > >You're right (at least arguably). Now how about the terms "suffering >and subjugation"? ha ha ha, surely you jest Positing that the Jews are God's chosen people, they have suffered and been subjected over the years, have they not? The early Christians, before Caeser converted, also suffered and very subjugated. I would argue, in fact, that God supports the underdogs, those who suffer and are subjugated. I would even argue that such situations are *preferred* by the Western God, as such situations lend themselves to seeking out solace from the Divine. God is an old Hebrew War god - one who strengthens through adversity, crossing a desert, the story of job, the Christian saints who died for their beliefs? [Now, as to the modern-day state of Israel . . . I would compare that to the corruption of the Catholic church - virtually any instituation will become corrupt as its power grows. American politics, for instance.] - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:28:07 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Time for a 2nd Edition? > > In INSMV 3rd ed, you get to pick one of your powers AND your Word which> >determines other powers you'll likely get, deal with it. > > Look at D&D, heck AD&D, you didn't get to pick half your crap you had >to> choose from in those games, you just picked a race and a class and ran >with> your options from there. > > >I'm reminded of the Grumpy Old Man from SNL. > >"We were bald. miserable, and starving, and we LIKED it, dammit!" > >-David LOL EGGzatctly Players spoiled with GURPS don't like having to pick primary, secondary and tertiary categories when making their White Wolf characters, likewise, players spoiled on White Wolf's easy-to-read stories found throughout their books aren't going to want to sit down and read a bunch of lists of powers that don't do much (ie the Liber Canticorum). As my player Rick pointed out: "Why does the Corporeal Song of Repulsion even exist? I mean, it's worthless." I dunno, I could think of some creative ways to use it, but he dismissed them as being too much trouble. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:38:04 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Divinite/Inhuman scale correction I don't recall who posted this comment: - ----------- As I recall, when they were working on originally converting IN over from INS/MV, there was that Divinity/Inhuman scale of points for the choirs/bands ...? Tthat idea might be worth rethinking (especially since SJ is paying for the license). - ----------- But a reply from the French list confirms my suspicion that its wholly incorrect. No such scale existed in either the first or second editions of the French game. (Nor the Third, for that matter.) Just who ever thought this should know that is such a scale existed, it's NOT from the French game . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Responding to Re: Wish List >Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:03:20 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [199.170.88.15] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBDD7D884001D40043161C7AA580F18050; Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:11:42 -0800 >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id >PAA24949for in_nomine-l-outgoing; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:10:58 -0600 >Received: from mx2.io.com (IDENT:root@mx2.io.com [199.170.88.18])by >lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24934for >; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:10:49 -0600 >Received: from mordor.thecabal.org (mordor.thecabal.org [209.20.131.124])by >mx2.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08475for >; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:02:16 -0600 >Received: from [24.147.8.99] (h000502ee0267.ne.mediaone.net >[24.147.8.99])by mordor.thecabal.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36004C800for >; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:04:17 -0800 (PST) >From owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:13:05 -0800 >X-Sender: (Unverified) >Message-Id: >In-Reply-To: >Sender: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Precedence: bulk > >At 11:56 AM -0500 12/5/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >[...] > > For example: With a Strength of 6, Paul the Soldier can carry 60 lbs. >of > > cat food for his Gryphon without breaking a sweat. At 120 lbs., his > > muscles are bulging and at 180 lbs. he's noticably slower. Laboring > > under 600 lbs. of cat food, not only is he immobile, but he should > > consider getting a different pet. > >-------------------------------- >[...] > >In IN it seems that you can -lift- things very easily, just can't move >with > >it very well . . . that and there's no system for getting tired (which >makes > >sense, Angels don't tire, do they? :) > >Celestials have the Doesn't Fatigue advantage, I believe, yes... > >Sounds like this is a bit of extra information which is also a bit >complex. That may be why it was trimmed out of the draft I got. >That, or it was a victim of word-count. > > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 23:39:07 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Divinite/Inhuman scale correction I don't recall who posted this comment: - ----------- As I recall, when they were working on originally converting IN over from INS/MV, there was that Divinity/Inhuman scale of points for the choirs/bands ...? Tthat idea might be worth rethinking (especially since SJ is paying for the license). - ----------- But a reply from the French list confirms my suspicion that its wholly incorrect. No such scale existed in either the first or second editions of the French game. (Nor the Third, for that matter.) Just who ever thought this should know that is such a scale existed, it's NOT from the French game . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:00:34 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Divinite/Inhuman scale correction Perry Lloyd wrote: > > I don't recall who posted this comment: > ----------- > As I recall, when they were working on originally converting IN over from > INS/MV, there was that Divinity/Inhuman scale of points for the > choirs/bands ...? Tthat idea might be worth rethinking (especially since SJ > is paying for the license). > ----------- > > But a reply from the French list confirms my suspicion that its wholly > incorrect. No such scale existed in either the first or second editions of > the French game. (Nor the Third, for that matter.) > > Just who ever thought this should know that is such a scale existed, it's > NOT from the French game . . . Someone proposed it for the IN Second Edition, on this list. I thought it was a huge, excessive, and unappealing change, myself...not unlike bringing IN closer to INS/MV. - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:49:58 -0600 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) At 11:11 PM 12/05/01 +0000, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>that SJGames has a private market-research company/person/something that >>feeds the data to SJ. > >hrm. Well, they need to do a better job. (As though I have the right >to say that, ha!) Without confirming or denying Beth's guess, what makes you think this hypothetical firm needs to do a better job? - -- Human history becomes more and more a | hackard@io.com race between education and catastrophe. | - -- H.G. Wells ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:01:41 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> The Sentence Hopefully this will someday be canon -- it can hardly be CDaU, since it was *very* public, and happened in the past. So... ....what was the exact sentence imposed on the Grigori? I mean, Outcasting, this we know. So, what, Dominic said "The Choir of the Grigori shall be hencefore and evermore Outcast, no excuses, no parole, and never ever making any more, ever", and all the Archangels promptly Outcast all their Grigori Servitors, Song and Death taking a hike? Did he just say "The Choir of the Grigori is now Outcast", and all the Hearts of the Grigori were suddenly broken, indicating some kind of Divine seal of approval(but also, to an optimistic Grig, not exactly shutting off avenues of future clemency)? Did not one single Grigori say "Okay, sir. What can I do to get the sentence lifted?" and get an answer, however cryptic? Secondarily: Why did Stone angels go around hunting Grigs and Skulkers? They don't hit demons just because they're demons, or Outcasts just beause they're Outcasts. Presumably, if they were continuing the kind of behavior that made them get Outcast and/or Fall, that'd be a source of reasons... were such Grigs the only ones targeted? Here's why I want to know -- having bought GURPS: In Nomine, I have the material with which to, theoretically, make a Grigori character. I say "theoretically," because there's one fundamental attribute of a PC that I'm missing -- his or her hopes and prospects for the future. Without knowing what the wording and effects of the sentence were, I'm hard pressed to come up with a reasonable response to the character's situation. Sure, I can make up some specifics. But the Outcasting of the Grigori was *very* public, and it happened in the long past. So I think that at the very least, the sentencing itself should be nailed down. I'd appreciate it very much. William P.S. If there's not going to be canon on this... why? If there is, but it hasn't been even close to written yet, well, I'd at least like to know that. P.P.S. The closest thing I can think of which would prevent Novalis and David (yes, those two -- the constant optimist and the Archangel who never gives up faith in even the lowest of the fallen) from taking Grigori back into their service, is this: "The Choir of the Grigori is Outcast. No angel shall knowingly succor them or give them shelter.* This is the Judgment of the Lord." With this, if I were a Grigori, I could go one of three (or more) ways. First, I could look at it as a test. God wants me to be subtle and be part of the Symphony. Therefore, I shall do my best to understand this lesson. Some day, perhaps, an angel will unknowingly aid me, and perhaps even I may return to the shelter of Heaven. Second, is Yves really an angel? Perhaps, if I serve faithfully enough, he will decide that my Destiny lies with Heaven, and I will no longer be Outcast. Third, I could go the "patient" route -- perhaps, in time, God will lift the sentence. After all, He didn't say "no parole," and God has tested his faithful before. I must bear up under the strain until I am once again worthy. *Yes, presumably that's what Outcast normally means. But there must normally be a loophole for Archangels to take Servitors back, which no one is using in this case, else an Archangel couldn't forgive and take back a Servitor they had Cast Out themself. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2473 ********************************