in_nomine-digest Friday, December 7 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2475 In this digest: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2474 Re: IN> Corp. Revulsion (was: Time for a 2nd Edition?) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Divinite/Inhuman scale correction Re: IN> The Sentence Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2474 IN> Angel of Hackers Re: IN> Re: The Sentence Re: IN> The Sentence Re: IN> Corp. Revulsion (was: Time for a 2nd Edition?) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) IN> New players wanted for PBEM Re: IN> The Sentence Re: IN> Corp. Revulsion (was: Time for a 2nd Edition?) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> The Sentence Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Corp. Revulsion (was: Time for a 2nd Edition?) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) IN> A New Soul in Heaven (fiction) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:42:06 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2474 - -----Original Message----- From: in_nomine-digest To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Date: Thursday, December 06, 2001 4:10 PM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2474 >Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 11:05:07 -0500 >From: Cameron McCurry >Subject: IN> Ever wonder... > >...why there is no Demon of Hackers? > > Don't be fooled; Hackers has the potential to become a powerful Word >for the side of Hell. And I'm not saying that there is a shortage of >Demons who want to earn the Word either. Demons of Dark Humor, Fate, >Media, Secrets, Technology and Theft can be found at any time vying for >the prestige of earning the title of Demon of Hackers. I assumed there was already a Demon of Hackers, a former Shedite of Technology, now working for Kobal, Prince of Dark Humor. I mean, let's face it, most Hackers who go online mostly do it out of a desire to spread chaos over the Internet for their own perverse Amusement. As for the competition... There's bound to be a Demon smart enough to match wits with Orc and his allies eventually... And that'll be the one who gets that E-mail from Lucifer stating "Congratulations on winning the Word of Hackers". - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:24:51 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Corp. Revulsion (was: Time for a 2nd Edition?) > > Players spoiled with GURPS don't like having to pick primary, secondary >and > > tertiary categories when making their White Wolf characters, likewise, > > players spoiled on White Wolf's easy-to-read stories found throughout >their > > books aren't going to want to sit down and read a bunch of lists of >powers > > that don't do much (ie the Liber Canticorum). > >Players who enjoy both don't seem to have a problem, though. agreed. > > As my player Rick pointed out: "Why does the Corporeal Song of >Repulsion > > even exist? I mean, it's worthless." > >It's not worthless, just limited. > >After rereading the song, I could think of a few uses: > >1. Prevent a train from entering a tunnel (why you would want to do this is >best decided by the player) in theory, if the CD is scored *very* high (it resists with a strength=CD), so . . . yeah. and the caster has to touch the train and the tunnel (it's walls presumably) at the same time when performing the song. >2. Remove a bullet from a body or vessel, by making something heavier than >a >bullet the other focus of the song like the body. I like this example a lot, btw >3. Keep an item out of a demon's reach by making the demon's clothing the >other focus of the song ha ha ha . . . I like that a lot. Casting it on the sleeve and said object. A good way to torment a mortal, too. >And my favorite would be this one: > >4. Levitating Kyriotates of Stone in garden gnome vessels! LOL! I love it. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:02:44 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) >From: Andrew Hackard >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) >Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:49:58 -0600 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [199.170.88.15] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBDD80C1100934136E81FC7AA580F4E6C0; Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:51:35 -0800 >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id >SAA02180for in_nomine-l-outgoing; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:50:44 -0600 >Received: from solomon.io.com (root@solomon.io.com [199.170.88.24])by >lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02173for >; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:50:41 -0600 >Received: from oversoul (aus-as2-166.io.com [199.170.89.166])by >solomon.io.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fB60oLx01873for >; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:50:21 -0600 >From owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:51:46 -0800 >Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011205184923.00a6d340@mail.io.com> >X-Nil: >In-Reply-To: >Sender: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Precedence: bulk > >At 11:11 PM 12/05/01 +0000, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>>that SJGames has a private market-research company/person/something that >>>feeds the data to SJ. >> >>hrm. Well, they need to do a better job. (As though I have the right >>to say that, ha!) > >Without confirming or denying Beth's guess, what makes you think this >hypothetical firm needs to do a better job? Because if they were doing a better job, the wouldn't IN be succeeding as a game line? Granted, not ALL game lines can succeed, but . . . this game is (a) based on a very successful one and (b) Christianity is, frankly, as American as apple pie (yes, yes, I know neither as universal, hence the metaphor) so, you'd think that a game based on Christian mythos/stories/truth would sell well. But, then again, if the firm were doing a better job, it'd know, right? I dunno. I know that humans aren't perfect and that the market is very hard to predict . . . I'm just unhappy and aiming it as a group of people that might not even exist, so pleh. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:44:47 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Divinite/Inhuman scale correction > > As I recall, when they were working on originally converting IN over > > from INS/MV, there was that Divinity/Inhuman scale of points for the > > choirs/bands ...? > >I didn't think the French original even *had* choirs and bands, >just angels and demons. No, it doesn't. It has distinctions, words and sorcerors, though! (and twice as many superiors to choose from, vikings, psis, undead armies, werewolves, the four horseman of the apocalypse, time travel, super-churches, soldiers of the hollow earth, Joan of Arc, holy flame-throwers, Dragons, the bureau (a Domminique/Andromalius, Justice/Judgement, Good/Evil working together to hunt down renegade Angels and Demons group), rules for Rude Boy Angels . . . and other sundry things) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:18:20 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Sentence Did not one single Grigori say "Okay, sir. What can >I do to get the sentence lifted?" and get an answer, however cryptic? Well, according to , er, a non-IN source, the Grigori had been specifically forbidden from mating with the humans. However, their love (lust?) for the humans (human women specifically) became too much for them and they desperately wanted to take human wives. So they talked to their leader, Azazel. Azazel, too, wanted to take a human wife. So, he talked to all of the Grigori and they formed a pact against God. Essentially, they gave God the finger and formally declared that they were taking human wives. Needless to say, the jealous hebrew God Yah*** was NOT pleased, and so he declared that they were no longer welcome in Heaven and he then cursed their children to be monsters. That would be why no Grigori protested Heaven's degree, because THEY had thrown the first stone, so to speak. (insert player who wants to play a Grigori who didn't agree with his fellow grigori and feel unjustly punished - way to play the outcast, yet again) >Secondarily: Why did Stone angels go around hunting Grigs and Skulkers? >They don't hit demons just because they're demons, or Outcasts just beause >they're Outcasts. Presumably, if they were continuing the kind of behavior >that made them get Outcast and/or Fall, that'd be a source of reasons... >were such Grigs the only ones targeted? Well, presumably God doesn't like it when his Angels give him the finger and then go do PRECISELY what He ordered them NOT to do. That and its not good to have monsters running around eating everything in sight. >P.S. If there's not going to be canon on this... why? If there is, but it >hasn't been even close to written yet, well, I'd at least like to know >that. I'm guessing because SJGames was either (a) were afraid of upsetting the conservative Christians (b) didn't do much research on the Grigori wait, DUDE! look what I just found: http://www.otherwonders.com/orc/articles/grigori.html http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/watchers.html nice. anyway, (c) there was a pagecount problem, (d) they wanted to establish some uncertainty, presumably so that they could (1) publish more material about them in a supplement (which would make business sense), or more likely (2) they wanted to establish yet more CDaU. Why? I dunno. That's because I don't know a LOT of things. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:04:51 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2474 >From: "Rolland Therrien" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2474 >Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:42:06 -0500 > > > >I assumed there was already a Demon of Hackers, a former Shedite of >Technology, now working for Kobal, Prince of Dark Humor. I mean, let's >face >it, most Hackers who go online mostly do it out of a desire to spread chaos >over the Internet for their own perverse Amusement. > Yeah. I'd guess Theft, I think. There's that lunatic "Because I _can_" sense behind it. I don't imagine Vapula is any happier about him than Jean or Orc. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:42:36 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Angel of Hackers Ambriel, Kyriotate Angel of Hackers Master of Divine Knowledge (Seraph) "You're only as good as the system you hack." - --MDFMK Corp 4 Str 8 Agl 10 Body 32 Ethe 6 Int 12 Pre 12 Mind 72 Cele 6 Wil 12 Per 12 Soul 72 Skills: Comp. Op/6, Hacking/6, Detect Lies/4, Electronics/4, Fast-talk/5, Area Knowledge (the internet)/6, Knowledge (business politics/6, international politics/6), Languages (Japanese/4, French/4, Chinese/4, Arabic/4), Savoir-Faire/4, Tactics (hacking)/5, Tracking (internet)/6, whatever else the GM requires. Songs: Affinity (cele/4), Artifacts (all/3), Calling (corp/4), Charm (corp/6, ethe/6), Forbidding (ethe/4), Ice (ethe/4), Machines (all/6), Nemesis (cele/4), Nimbus (corp/4, ethe/5), Projection (corp/5), Revulsion (cele/6), Shields (corp/4), Tongues (corp/4, cele/3). Attunements and Distinctions: Master of Divine Knowledge (Seraphim resonance), Friend of the Sages, Vassal of Destiny, Seraphim of Destiny, Mercurians of Destiny, Ofanim of Destiny, Divine Destiny, Divine Logic, Forgetful Words, Library Card (rarely used, btw). "To hack is to make information public. To make information public is to grant the common person power. To grant the common person power is to allow them the potential to do something useful with power or to abuse it. Either way, they must grow and develop. Either way, they are forced to make life-changing decisions. "To hack is to take power away from those who have taken it unjustly from the common person. They have taken their power, not by force, but by taking advantage of the common person's lack of knowledge and lack of motivation. They haven't kept knowledge away from the common person, they've just kept the common person distracted with base-ball cards, sports, computer games, cable and satellite TV, news that keeps them afraid, drugs, fashion, anything to distract them from persuing the Truth about the people who are gathering power and using it to control the markets and increase their influence. "Who cares about corporate mergers when the newest episode of your favorite television progamming is on. Who cares what the Truth behind a military conflict is, the TV will tell us which side to be on. Won't it? The truth is that money is no longer based on gold, it's based on faith and little tiny numbers that are shifted around. The truth is that no one is in control, only fighting for it and keeping the average person complacent, not through torture and fear, but through feeding the common person the myth of democracry, the myth that big money doesn't hold sway over our politicians, the myth that the justice system works for the comman man and not big money. The job of a hacker is to reveal the system for what is it. The job of a hacker is to uncover the truth, to make information free for all because knowledge is power and power belongs in all hands, to separate the capable from the incapable. "To hack is not to face the rules of a system head on, for that is destruction. To hack a system is to use its own rules against it, to find the nooks and crannies. To hack a system is to use that system. To hack is to bring giants to their knees and beg for forgiveness. To hack is to brings truth and justice to the world. To hack is not to poison a system, to hack is not to destroy a system, to hack is show the system for what it is, to turn it inside out and discover the truth of the corruption or purity within. That is to hack. "Those who hack for person benefit are not hackers, they're pirates and parasites. I oppose such devils and give them the opportunity to choose whose side they're fighting for - power or power for all. The Forces of Greed, or the Forces of Good. "Heaven cannot afford to allow the Hackers of Earth to go without a Divine patron for much longer." - --Ambriel, at his hearing before the Seraphim council, petitioning for his Word. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:53:46 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Re: The Sentence > A more detailed story of the Grigori, or Watchers, and their >leader Semjaza, can be found in the apocryphal Book of Enoch or >Henoch. There is a great deal in the Book of Enoch, who was an >antediluvian prophet who "walked with God" for a time. The Catholic >Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01602a.htm) has an excellent >treatment of the Book of Enoch, and you can find the full text elsewhere on >the net; what seems the most complete version of the text is at >http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm Excellent, I stand corrected! Thanks for the kewl linx! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:16:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Sentence At 9:01 PM -0500 12/5/01, William J. Keith wrote: >Hopefully this will someday be canon -- it can hardly be CDaU, since it was >*very* public, and happened in the past. So... > >...what was the exact sentence imposed on the Grigori? > >I mean, Outcasting, this we know. So, what, Dominic said "The Choir of the >Grigori shall be hencefore and evermore Outcast, no excuses, no parole, and >never ever making any more, ever", and all the Archangels promptly Outcast >all their Grigori Servitors, Song and Death taking a hike? Did he just say >"The Choir of the Grigori is now Outcast", and all the Hearts of the >Grigori were suddenly broken, indicating some kind of Divine seal of >approval(but also, to an optimistic Grig, not exactly shutting off avenues >of future clemency)? Did not one single Grigori say "Okay, sir. What can >I do to get the sentence lifted?" and get an answer, however cryptic? This is all not yet written, and I'm not quite despairing enough to go around doing spoilers for what notions _are_ written down. Basically, he had reason to Outcast them all, and the reasons were clear enough that the rest of the Archangels went along with it (with grumbling or not, according to how they thought of the matter). >Secondarily: Why did Stone angels go around hunting Grigs and Skulkers? Lessee... This was drawn from one of the books... Superiors 1 certainly touches upon it (pp. 12, 13, 30); basically, Grigori were serving a function that placed them greatly under Stone's purview. They weren't all Servitors of Stone, but they were supposed to be teaching humans and strengthening them for the probable demonic conflicts to come -- not horsing around and having monster-kids and _hiding_ them. They perverted the virtue of "solidarity" to cover up their erring Choirmates. In short, they really ticked David off. O:> (I have a feeling some of that was also in FotM, but possibly in a different form; I think David got some major reworking in S1.) >Here's why I want to know -- having bought GURPS: In Nomine, I have the >material with which to, theoretically, make a Grigori character. I say >"theoretically," because there's one fundamental attribute of a PC that I'm >missing -- his or her hopes and prospects for the future. P. GIN58, first maintext paragraph? [...] >public, and it happened in the long past. So I think that at the very >least, the sentencing itself should be nailed down. I'd appreciate it very >much. I'm sure the details are going to be nailed down eventually. (At least, that's the intent.) I don't have them at my fingertips at the moment, though, and they may be subject to some change. >P.S. If there's not going to be canon on this... why? If there is, but it >hasn't been even close to written yet, well, I'd at least like to know that. The latter -- indeed, at the time we were writing GIN, we were under the assumption that the Grigori book would be in production Real Soon Now, if not Any Day Now... >P.P.S. The closest thing I can think of which would prevent Novalis and >David (yes, those two -- the constant optimist and the Archangel who never >gives up faith in even the lowest of the fallen) from taking Grigori back >into their service, is this: "The Choir of the Grigori is Outcast. No >angel shall knowingly succor them or give them shelter.* This is the >Judgment of the Lord." This is probably close, at a minimum. (Drat, I forgot the bit that I _think_ is in the other core rules, about "no associating" with the Grig -- or the CotG. *sigh*) That, and David is still PO'ed at them. Stone takes a long time to forget a grudge. >*Yes, presumably that's what Outcast normally means. But there must >normally be a loophole for Archangels to take Servitors back, which no one >is using in this case, else an Archangel couldn't forgive and take back a >Servitor they had Cast Out themself. Oh, sure. Though if an Archangel gets ticked enough to do it (without getting Judgment to do it), then this may be as simple as, "Get thee gone from my sight!", a whap to crack/shatter the Heart, and a boot to the tailfeathers. There may or may not be things like, "Until you learn a little respect/patience/sense/whatever" tacked on. Then the Servitor gets to figure out what to do next. Judgment is usually more clear about the requirements. O:> It may well be that the Grigori's "loophole" is "Until God sees fit to call you back." (Probably a nice loophole from Judgment's point of view...) It may be that such a thing is implicit but rarely stated, when the sentence is Outcasting On A Very Indefinite But LONG Basis... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:21:01 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Corp. Revulsion (was: Time for a 2nd Edition?) From: "Perry Lloyd" > > > >It's not worthless, just limited. > > > >After rereading the song, I could think of a few uses: > > > >1. Prevent a train from entering a tunnel (why you would want to do this is > >best decided by the player) > > in theory, if the CD is scored *very* high (it resists with a strength=CD), > so . . . yeah. The train and the tunnel opening would be resisting going near each other - the CD determines how hard each would be pushing the other away. > >2. Remove a bullet from a body or vessel, by making something heavier than > >a bullet the other focus of the song > > like the body. I like this example a lot, btw It can't be sung upon a living being, unfortunately, so the singer would have to hold something on the side of the body opposite the bullet wound. But this is still limited to the singer being able to touch the bullet, so it would only see much use for this if the singer had been shot. > >And my favorite would be this one: > > > >4. Levitating Kyriotates of Stone in garden gnome vessels! > > LOL! I love it. I'm rather proud of that one. Thank you. :) Which makes me wonder: If the levitating garden gnome vessels propelled themselves into an opponent, would that fall under the "no ranged weapons" part of Stone's dissonance conditions? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:23:51 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) From: "Perry Lloyd" > > > >Without confirming or denying Beth's guess, what makes you think this > >hypothetical firm needs to do a better job? > > Because if they were doing a better job, the wouldn't IN be succeeding as a > game line? I have to disagree with this premise - GURPS' success indicates that SJG *are* doing a good enough job. The success or failure of a niche game (which, as much as I love it, IN is,) does not determine the success or failure of its parent company (unless said parent company only pursues the one niche.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 02:50:28 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> New players wanted for PBEM My PBEM is having what you might call "staffing difficulties" and I am looking for two or three more players. This is a Bright, High-Contrast game for angel and human PCs. I'm especially interested in people who want to play reasonably well socialized characters as we have all the misfit loners we need. At present, we meet via e-mail between 9-11:30 EDT on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. Janet Anderson dorigen@hotmail.com * * * * And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities ... Isaiah 61:4 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:10:28 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Sentence Perry Lloyd wrote: > That would be why no Grigori protested Heaven's degree, because THEY had > thrown the first stone, so to speak. Semi-pseudo-but-not-officially-canonically (http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Grigori.html), they were all Outcasted because ALL Grigori were either guilty of miscegenation with mortals, or guilty of not reporting their fellows to Judgment. They all knew what was going on; not all participated, but they were guilty of helping cover for their sinful brethren. > >P.S. If there's not going to be canon on this... why? Because the book in which it would fit hasn't shown up yet (though I argued WAY back when for putting it in the APG, but I was overruled). > If there is, but it> >hasn't been even close to written yet, well, I'd at least like to know > >that. > > I'm guessing because SJGames was either (a) were afraid of upsetting the > conservative Christians (b) didn't do much research on the Grigori Wrong on both counts. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 04:08:16 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Corp. Revulsion (was: Time for a 2nd Edition?) > > >4. Levitating Kyriotates of Stone in garden gnome vessels! > > > > LOL! I love it. > >I'm rather proud of that one. Thank you. :) > >Which makes me wonder: If the levitating garden gnome vessels propelled >themselves into an opponent, would that fall under the "no ranged weapons" >part of Stone's dissonance conditions? not again! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:15:02 -0500 From: "Brian R. Boyko" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) At 08:23 PM 12/6/01 -0600, you wrote: >I have to disagree with this premise - GURPS' success indicates that SJG >*are* doing a good enough job. The success or failure of a niche game >(which, as much as I love it, IN is,) does not determine the success or >failure of its parent company (unless said parent company only pursues the >one niche.) Case in point: White Wolf. They only had one Niche, tried to branch out (somewhat unsuccessfully) with the Aeon line and (successfully) with the Exalted line... Even WotC's success doesn't depend on the sales of Alternity, after all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 04:42:39 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) > > > > > >Without confirming or denying Beth's guess, what makes you think this > > >hypothetical firm needs to do a better job? > > > > Because if they were doing a better job, the wouldn't IN be succeeding >as >a > > game line? > >I have to disagree with this premise - GURPS' success indicates that SJG >*are* doing a good enough job. The success or failure of a niche game >(which, as much as I love it, IN is,) does not determine the success or >failure of its parent company (unless said parent company only pursues the >one niche.) Didn't say that GURPS wasn't doing well. It is. However, there is a fundamental difference between GURPS and In Nomine: GURPS is merely a rules system that can used to emulate anything (well, in theory). GURPS is NOT a game world. In Nomine is a fixed game world. Now, why is GURPS succeeded where IN is failing? In part, it's because GURPS is structured to allow for many different game worlds to be published - - meaning lots of supplements and therefore lots of sales. GURPS' success depends on its ability to produce more and different things. In Nomine is a set game world. Therefore, it has two sale options: (1) breathe life into that game world with detail of established elements and/or (2) breathe life into it by adding new elements, and then more detail on those elements. The revelations cycle added new elements: saints and sorcerors, new minor choirs, and new Superiors. Unfortunately, the last two books were mostly a poorly written adventure, and adventures *have* to be written well. So, given that "mistake" of trying to /expand/ (which seemed to work fine with Rev 1, 2, & 3, imho), the shift seems to be towards going into the fine details, as seen with You Are Here, the APG/IPG, GMG, CPG, LC, LC, and LS. (though, admittedly, the LCant. could be seen as expansion) I can hardly wait to see the EPG - because it might actually involve some more expansion of the game world. Hopefully. The Superiors series has been nice so far. I really like it for it's little stories about Theft and what-not. GURPS is nice for its mechanics and detailed mechanics. IN is not nice for its mechanics, so I wish that there'd be more emphasis placed on dream-weaving, on enchanting the reader with the coolness of the game world - with the mysterious powers of the Archangels and the aweful powers of the Demon Princes, that the players might have the chance to play someone torn between the majesty of the Superiors and the mortal world of the humans they must care for and protect, or torment and corrupt. Torn between duty and their own selfish desires, or torn between what they are told is the right thing to do and what they feel is the right thing to do. btw - the player of our Ofanite of Lightning DESPERATELY wants to see Jean's expanded write-up (not that it exists yet). Let's see . . . the last two Angelic Superior's Books: Janus, Jordi, Novalis, Zadkiel - the forces of nature Jean, Eli, Litheroy, Marc - the forces of creation and discovery I dunno. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 04:46:03 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Sentence > > I'm guessing because SJGames was either (a) were afraid of upsetting the > > conservative Christians (b) didn't do much research on the Grigori > >Wrong on both counts. Good. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:05:15 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) > > >Let's see . . . the last two Angelic Superior's Books: > >Janus, Jordi, Novalis, Zadkiel - the forces of nature > >Jean, Eli, Litheroy, Marc - the forces of creation and discovery > Zadkiel's not really a force of nature, is she? (oh, and you forgot Chirstopher). I ws thinking that one of the books would be the Wild Cards and Loners (Novalis, Janus, Jordi, and Eli). That would also mean that the other one would have three minor and two major superiors, which fits well. Perhaps it would be the overseers of the populace, those who determine what the mundanes see and know: Marc, Litheroy, Jean, Christopher, and Zadkiel. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:15:49 -0600 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) At 10:02 PM 12/06/01 +0000, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Because if they were doing a better job, the wouldn't IN be succeeding >as a game line? Not necessarily. Some very good games/TV shows/movies don't succeed, and as far as I can tell, the reasons are mostly random. >Granted, not ALL game lines can succeed, but . . . this game is (a) >based on a very successful one A very successful French game. I point out that the French market and the American market are quite different. >and (b) Christianity is, frankly, as American as apple pie (yes, yes, >I know neither as universal, hence the metaphor) so, you'd think that >a game based on Christian mythos/stories/truth would sell well. Or not -- if it's uncomfortably close to sacred cows, people might shy away from it. - -- Human history becomes more and more a | hackard@io.com race between education and catastrophe. | - -- H.G. Wells ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 05:32:41 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) >Zadkiel's not really a force of nature, is she? (oh, and you forgot >Chirstopher). damn! Protective mother bear - force of nature :P >I ws thinking that one of the books would be the Wild Cards and Loners >(Novalis, Janus, Jordi, and Eli). ahhh . . . that works, I like it. I just pray that whoever writes up Novalis reads Habeas Corpus for insmv. >That would also mean that the other one would have three minor and two >major >superiors, which fits well. Perhaps it would be the overseers of the >populace, those who determine what the mundanes see and know: Marc, >Litheroy, Jean, Christopher, and Zadkiel. Except that Litheroy doesn't strike me as one who oversee anything, let along the populace. Perhaps her deserves his own source-book: A book of secrets (revelations) for GMs - plot seeds, the dirt of various Superiors, etc, etc . . . - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Téléchargez MSN Explorer gratuitement à l'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:41:31 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Corp. Revulsion (was: Time for a 2nd Edition?) From: "Perry Lloyd" > > > >Which makes me wonder: If the levitating garden gnome vessels propelled > >themselves into an opponent, would that fall under the "no ranged weapons" > >part of Stone's dissonance conditions? > > not again! No, I think this actually is an angle we haven't already covered on this question. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:55:22 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) >That would also mean that the other one would have three minor and two major >superiors, which fits well. Perhaps it would be the overseers of the >populace, those who determine what the mundanes see and know: Marc, >Litheroy, Jean, Christopher, and Zadkiel. Snip Okay, not precisely the most on-topic of questions, but what would Litheroy and Jean think of one another? Litheroy, trying to quite literally reveal all secrets of the world and Jean, who on the one hand is attempting to progress in the field of knowledge and on the other hand wishes to keep humanity from over-reaching themselves and discovering too much too soon. Would they be opposed to one another or united in their efforts to ultimately illuminate the secrets of the Symphony? Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:24:00 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Customer Feedback? (was: Ethereals (was Wish List)) > >Okay, not precisely the most on-topic of questions, but what would Litheroy >and Jean think of one another? If I remember the Gamemaster's Pack, Litheroy dislikes Jean as much as he dislikes anybody. After all, Jean does his best to keep scientific advancements hidden for mortals until it is very necessary. This goes against Lithery's beliefs. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:13:37 -0800 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: IN> A New Soul in Heaven (fiction) With all the discussion of changes to canon I got to thinking about how I might view the current IN universe if I encountered it firsthand. IMHO the current rules and style offer a great opportunity to explore how celestials (jaded, or at least set, in their own views of the universe and Truth) interact with the flood of humans who come to their doorsteps everyday with vastly differing notions and expectations of the celestial world. Here's a fictional take just such an encounter. Hope you enjoy. - --Vaughn * * * A NEW SOUL IN HEAVEN * * * The first thing I remember is the sound. It was like a light breeze on a warm day, a sound that tickled and teased my awareness but stayed just out of reach. Its presence was comforting, a soothing song of water over rocks, of wind rushing through leaves, and rain wetting earth. I can't tell you how long I listened to it, but while I listened I knew joy unlike any I had known before. And it was this thought that roused something in me. There had been a time when I had not heard this beautiful song - a time when I was not of this place and free of all cares. I had been alive once. I had been a man, and I had led a life full of doubts, sorrows, and striving to find a place. I had died alone, as I guess we all do, on the day after my eighty-fifth birthday, and now I was here in this place that sang of promise and peace, and I had a final choice to make. And it called me. The Symphony, a name I did not learn until later, beckoned me to join it. I felt within me the music of my own essence harmonizing with the sound I heard. With a thought I knew I could join it, be one with the peace I had yearned for all my life. I heard my own voice for the first time then, "Home." * * * There were many other souls waiting to enter. The vastness of their number was almost too much for me to take in, faintly glowing souls everywhere the eye could see. I stood awhile in wonder marvelling at the mass of them walking with one purpose to a shining city beyond - the end point of our journey. Looking at their faces, so full of hope, brought tears to the eyes I didn't even know I had not moments before. It would be a while before I reached the city gates, and I spent the time marveling at my new-found condition. I had the body of a young man again but without the scars and blemishes I had worn in life. My skin shone with a pale white light and down my back long locks of hair I had not had in years danced in a soft breeze. I broke into a grin, which widened even further when I discovered my face bore the short beard I had resisted growing for decades as a youth. A soul behind me chuckled, "You almost look like him." I turned to see a tall pale woman with kindly eyes. "Like who?" "Like Jesus, the man we're about to meet." As the last words left her mouth she closed her eyes and smiled. I cast my eyes down shyly, a sense of dread washing over me. "I suppose this is... Heaven?" I mumbled. "Of course. We are walking this very moment to our eternal reward. Don't you see the angels?" She pointed to the shining city behind me. I turned and followed her hand with my eyes. "See them flying above the wall? How glorious it will be to have wings of our own." Black wings. The angels had black wings. A group of three of them had just lifted off from the wall and were beating their dark wings to gain height. Something about them filled me with fear. Were angels supposed to have black wings? That was the least of my worries. Were agnostics supposed to go to Heaven? I was about to find out. * * * The woman's name was named Karen. She had been a teacher most of her life. She had struggled with cancer for four years and had finally succumb when she stopped seeking treatment. "I knew it was my time," she said. She had been a Christian all of her adult life. She had never doubted in Heaven and her place in it. This was her reward for her faith and her love for Jesus, she told me. "Were you a religious man?" she asked innocently. "Not really," I heard myself saying. "I believed... I believe in an all-loving God, but he is a mystery to me." I was starting to feel awkward, I could sense her next question before she even spoke. "But you believed in Jesus, yes?" She had finally voiced the question I had been dreading. Here in Heaven, before the Pearly Gates with my immortal soul hanging in the balance. "No." The answer rang in my head long after I had spoken. Listening to the echoes of it my heart began to race. "I admired the stories about him... He was a good role model, but..." "Oh, you poor soul." Her eyes were suddenly wet as if from a great sadness. "To have come this far without Him. Perhaps it is not too late? There is still time if you open your heart to him." She stopped and kneeled on the ground with one leg. She offered a hand to me. "Shall we pray?" She was so certain. Her eyes held the promise of infinite salvation if I would but join her and call His name. I had known doubt all my life, so I recognized the feeling the way I would a long-time friend coming to visit. It did make sense: there was the glorious calling that had brought me here, a gathering of hopeful souls, the shining city, and angels flying overhead. I would be a fool not to believe now, and yet my heart was not in it. "I wish I could, but it would be a lie. I don't want to lie. Not here, not now." She remained staring at me for a long while, her hand open and waiting. I had faced many difficult decisions in my life, but nothing had prepared me for this moment. "Let my God judge me as I am." I turned to walk away, but stopped after a few steps. Looking back, I saw her still waiting, faithful to the last. "Thank you, Karen. I'll always remember you." I turned away certain I would never see her again. It was time to face my Maker. * * * The angels at the gate were like nothing I had ever seen. A winged serpent with 6 eyes coiled it's tail around a column and glared down at the souls entering the city. Besides the serpent was a what appeared to be an alien from a science fiction movie, a sexless humanoid with no hair and large eyes. The second angel at least resembled a human, whereas the first was a thing of fantasy come to life. Beyond these two were a host of "real" angels, or what I thought of as real angels - humans with wings and halos. The "real" angels were smiling and greeting the souls as they entered the city, but only after they had past the monsters at the gate. Many things raced through my mind. Perhaps only the damned see these angles as monsters? Perhaps it is the final test to separate the wheat from the chaff? Try as I might I could not block out my final moments with Karen. I had been given a choice, and I had turned away. I was beginning to regret my decision when I stepped up before the two judges of my fate. "Why is he frightened, Most Holy?" The alien sang words I had never heard but nonetheless instantly understood. "There are many possible reasons, my friend, let us inquire and settle the matter definitively." As the serpent's song faded it turned all six eyes in my direction, looking me up and down. "You are Mason del Rio, son of David and Ester." It was not a question, alien though it was, I swore I saw its eyes register recognition of my name. "Why do you fear Heaven, blessed one?" My moment of judgment had come. "I am not a Christian... What I believe does not seem to match this place..." I paused for a long moment hoping my judges would fill the space I had left open. The pair stared at me silently, waiting. "I was given a choice outside these gates..." My fear reached a crescendo; I wanted to run, but I knew there was no escape. God is love... God is love... the thought gave me courage to finish. "A woman offered me the comfort of her faith, and I could have embraced it falsely to pass these gates. I chose not to..." My spirit was spent; I could not continue. The serpent's eyes bored into me, or so it felt, and time slowed to the point of near non-existence. Only my ragged breaths spoke of the passage of time. Reaching some decision, the serpent turned to the alien and sang, "Witness, Power, the burden placed upon their shoulders. Choosing without knowledge, fearing the very gates of his salvation, this human demonstrates how fragile a destiny can be. It would be wise to remember him in your own struggle toward destiny." "How so, Most Holy?" The alien responded. "There may come a time when you must choose to follow your beliefs or adopts those of seeming-convenience. Will you be willing to risk your soul as this human has done? We have much to learn from the blessed." Turning finally to me, the serpent spoke, "Welcome to Heaven blessed one, already you serve us well." - - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't." Mark Twain ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2475 ********************************