in_nomine-digest Friday, December 28 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2496 In this digest: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" Re: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" Re: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" IN> Finally Saw Dogma Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:19:15 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction On 27 Dec 2001, 19:58, Eric Bertish wrote: [..] > society. For each level of Role the celestial possesses, it must spend one > hour per day in active pursuit of that role's identity in order to keep > this relationship healthy. This maintenance may be neglected for brief > periods with no ill effect, but if at the end of a week's time the > celestial has not performed the requisite hours, the Role degrades by a > level. > > A notable exception to this rule is the Role/1. Consisting mostly of > paperwork, there is little that needs be done to maintain it (except in > cases of Role Destruction; see below). Simply by being in the vessel to > whom the Role belongs, and answering to its name, is sufficient for > maintenance. Degradation only becomes an issue if the vessel has not been > occupied in over a week. Something doesn't seem right here. If I'm "Arnold Schwarzenegger", my Role/6 degrades to a Role/5 if I kick back and enjoy the tropical sun in Hawaii for a week? This sounds more like it should affect Status level, and a week is still a rather arbitrary figure to pluck. Also, some Roles are more demanding of a celestial's time than others (consider Joe, Homeless Nobody/6, with Bob, American President/6 - Joe is Status 1, and if he goes missing for a day maybe nobody would notice at all, but Bob is Status 6, and if he goes missing for fifteen minutes the Secret Service are just the first of many who are going to freak out). > Degraded Roles may be returned to their previous state only through > concentrated effort. If, during the next week, the celestial spends double > the amount of hours neglected, the Role may be returned to normal on the > eighth day. This penalty is cumulative, which means that any Role higher > than 2 becomes effectively impossible to repair if neglected. So how do celestials build Roles higher than level 2 in the first place? > Role Destruction [..] > 2. Penetration. Cross-checking through police records and DMV files will > typically yield the name, address, and social security number of the > suspected celestial. As these are the minimum requirements for a Role/1, > any individual without such credentials is immediately pegged as a > celestial; however, Role destruction is then impossible in this case. For I'd change that to "suspected celestial". Note that a large number of people manage to avoid having a police record too, simply by never attracting that kind of attention (or do the US police keep the name/address/SSN of every US citizen? I'm an Aussie). DMV - Department of Motor Vehicles? What if the person doesn't have a driver's license? > all other instances, in-depth research is begun to trace the individual's > paper trail and search for inconsistencies. To determine if a Role is > penetrated, roll against its level for each week of scrutiny. Most > investigations will not last more than four weeks, and depending upon > circumstances a GM may assign bonuses for each week after the first. Note > that all mortals have effectively impenetrable roles. If this is due to having level 6 roles, does that apply to celestials with level 6 roles as well? Also, I'd suggest the first roll may well be a very basic background check - there is a LOT of mortal traffic at some Tethers - which if failed brings on a more indepth investigation. > 3. Destruction. Compared to the previous steps, this last stage is > pitifully easy. Deletion of credit records, alteration or destruction of > paperwork, and 'liquidation' of those able to affirm the celestial's > identity are all standard procedure. By destroying each link the celestial > has to the Role's 'realness', the less effective it becomes. Assume it > takes one week of active 'deletion' to degrade a Role one level. A > celestial whose Role has been degraded thusly may attempt to repair it > using the aforementioned method - but its time will be better spent in > finding and eliminating those responsible for its degradation. If the role degradation repair rules as above were used, any Role higher than 2 will be impossible to repair. Also, some Roles would be easier to destroy than others regardless of level (see Joe Homeless and Bob President above). These sorts of game mechanics are difficult to quantify abstractly, although it can give a GM something to start with if they want to focus more on Roles. Cheers, Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:49:02 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction - --- Eric Bertish wrote: > Degraded Roles may be returned to their previous > state only through > concentrated effort. If, during the next week, the > celestial spends double > the amount of hours neglected, the Role may be > returned to normal on the > eighth day. This penalty is cumulative, which means > that any Role higher > than 2 becomes effectively impossible to repair if > neglected. Shane already mentioned the bit about how some Roles are easier to maintain than others (although, to hijack his example, Ahrnold's kicking back in Hawaii may very well _be_ Role-maintenance: it all depends on plausable PC weaseling, there), so I won't bring it up. What I _would_ suggest is that some sort of gradual reestablishment of a degraded Role/3 or better be allowed* - but that later investigations receive some sort of bonus to penetrate Roles that have been previously degraded, and later reestablished. A +1 for every time that a celestial let things slip sounds about right: the more you screw up, the easier you are to trace... Moe *Paperwork can be faked and people can be persuaded that Bill was there all along, or that he had a good reason not to be around that week - especially if Bill's a Balseraph... :) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:55:33 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction > Something doesn't seem right here. If I'm "Arnold Schwarzenegger", my > Role/6 degrades to a Role/5 if I kick back and enjoy the tropical sun in That depends. Are you completely unnoticed? Or are you doing typically Hollywood things, like cavorting on nude beaches where tabloid photogs can take your picture? If the latter, then you're still maintaining the role. Essentially, this was created so that PCs wouldn't plunk down the point for a Role/6 and then not maintain their "secret ID," using only to mask symphonic distrubances instead of treating it as the active integration into the web of human relationships that it *should* be. > Hawaii for a week? This sounds more like it should affect Status level, > and a week is still a rather arbitrary figure to pluck. Highly arbitrary. I was trying to go rules-light without being completely without guidelines. What would you recommend instead of a week? > Also, some Roles are more demanding of a celestial's time than others > (consider Joe, Homeless Nobody/6, with Bob, American President/6 - Joe is > Status 1, and if he goes missing for a day maybe nobody would notice at > all, but Bob is Status 6, and if he goes missing for fifteen minutes the > Secret Service are just the first of many who are going to freak out). OK, this is a flaw on my part. I never considered that someone might want a Role/6 (Bum). > So how do celestials build Roles higher than level 2 in the first place? Role-playing. Alas, there are no mechanics for that. :) Seriously though, from all I've read about how Roles work, they're usually created very carefully over the course of years, either by hard work or through an Archangel's organization. So really it comes down impressing the GM enough to make him say, "You've been working hard and deserve to have your Role upgraded. Here you go." > I'd change that to "suspected celestial". Note that a large number of > people manage to avoid having a police record too, simply by never > attracting that kind of attention (or do the US police keep the > name/address/SSN of every US citizen? I'm an Aussie). DMV - Department of > Motor Vehicles? What if the person doesn't have a driver's license? While it is possible to be a legal citizen of the US without your picture being on an official document, it's very, *very* difficult. I rather assumed that celestial intelligence agencies would consider these anomalies suspect anyway, and treat them as they would handle any other potential enemy agent. Do you have any friends of driving age, who don't have licenses or even don't know how to drive? If so, you probably think of them as 'kinda weird', or maybe even "How can you live like that?" Now add in celestial paranoia... > If this is due to having level 6 roles, does that apply to celestials > with level 6 roles as well? Also, I'd suggest the first roll may well be No, because celestials aren't human, and never have been. A determined search with enough money and manpower behind might turn up something unusual in a celestial's brackground that a human wouldn't have. ("Funny... Jo Beth grew up on a farm and the doctor who delivered her says she's never been sick or broken a bone, ever. But all her brothers had chicken pox at the same time....") > a very basic background check - there is a LOT of mortal traffic at some > Tethers - which if failed brings on a more indepth investigation. Okay, this makes sense. > If the role degradation repair rules as above were used, any Role higher > than 2 will be impossible to repair. Yup. An accusation of child molestation, even if proven utterly without basis, pretty much destroys a person's credibility forever. Fortunately, celestials can get new Roles from their superiors. Mortals ain't so lucky... > These sorts of game mechanics are difficult to quantify abstractly, I tried, though! And thanks for the feedback. - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:54:39 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" ....and it would seem that I've gotten weird, again. (shrug) Inevitable, I suppose. ;) Moe Yaasriel Seraph Friend of the Quest Angel of Tabloid Newspapers Corporeal Forces: 3 Strength: 5 Agility: 7 Ethereal Forces: 4 Intelligence: 7 Precision: 9 Celestial Forces: 6 Will: 12 Perception: 12 Word Forces: 5 Vessel: human male/1, Charisma +1 Skills: Artistry/2 (writing), Computer Programming/1, Dodge/2, Emote/1, Fast-Talk/3, Fighting/3, Knowledge ('Supernatural' Activities/3, Research/6, Tabloids/4), Move Silently/1, Ranged Weapon/3 (pistol) Songs: Harmony (Corporeal/2, Ethereal/3), Memory (All/1), Motion (Celestial/1), Shields (Corporeal/2), Sleep (Ethereal/2), Symphony (All/3), Truth (All/2), Truthswearing/3 Attunements: Seraph of Revelations, Elohite of Revelations, Sense of Significance, I Tell You Three Times, Friend of the Quest, Angel of Tabloid Newspapers Angel of Tabloid Newspapers: Yaasriel can look at an article in any tabloid newspaper and automatically know if a celestial or ethereal was somehow significantly involved in the events described therein. Rite: : Write an article for the tabloids (note that writing out something that's false is, of course, dissonant). Yaasriel is -amazed- that it took him this long to work things out. After all, when one thinks about it, it all makes perfect sense. The major problem that Servitors of Revelation have is that they cannot keep things secret - - yet they must not reveal their True nature to the world. Reconciling these contradictory requirements can lead to massive (and literal) headaches, but for the longest time, there wasn't a third option. Tabloids have given his organization a nigh-perfect tool. Every week, thousands of people pay hard-earned money to buy 'newspapers' that tell them, in all seriousness, that Elvis is cruising the Midwest dispensing a second youth to his most faithful fans. That Ground Zero in NYC now has a direct link to Heaven, and thus under the secret protection of the Catholic Church. That Bigfoot has apparently decided to begin stuffing polluters in their own illegally dumped barrels. That chocolate has arcane, mystic healing properties to those souls touched by God. That Marilyn Monroe has come back from the dead to hunt demons in Los Angeles. All sorts of ridiculous, bizarre, unbelievable stories can be found there - and while almost no one will admit to believing them, yet the papers still get sold. Better and better, anything that is True, yet currently unbelievable, stands an excellent chance of ending up in one of these tabloids, right there for any interested researcher to read and investigate. Yaasriel cannot begin to count how many times he's hit pay-dirt simply by going down to the corner and purchasing the latest copy of The Midnight Sun, or one of its competitors. There seems to be quite a few celestials on both sides who think that 'only the Enquirer ran the story' with 'I got away with it clean': Revelations has been having a field day disabusing selected others of that notion. Best of all ... when the chips are down, and someone desperately needs to break a crucial piece of information about the War across a nation or continent, and regular communication channels are being blocked... well, there's always a tabloid reporter desperately looking for something imaginative to run with. It takes a little practice (and a bit of winnowing until you find someone who will cheerfully just transcribe your words on paper), but that practice pays dividends: when done right, soon everybody with eyes to see will get the message. In other words, Yaasriel is in his element. He discovered the utility of the tabloids about three decades ago, and has been advocating their use ever since. He had an impressive case file of successes to back up his advocacy, too. The Seraph has uncovered enough Infernal Tethers, secret demons, mad ethereal cults and general nefarious plots to keep a dozen rapid-response squads busy - and all through quietly reading about twenty badly-printed newspapers a week. His rapid promotion and eventual Word were mere formalities. Naturally, having the Word has changed him, mostly by accelerating his acculturation to the corporeal plane. Seraphim have this problem with lies - indeed, at first the Seraph had to deal with constant migraines and nosebleeds after a research session. But he bore up firmly under the pressure, like the dedicated and committed angel that he is - and he learned to handle the pressure. In the process, he somehow managed to pick up a sense of humor, too. Granted, it's not a particularly sophisticated sense of humor (thanks to the angel's usual reading material), but the amazing thing is that one's there to begin with. By now, Yaasriel has gotten to the point where he can actually read tabloids without pain. It helps that so much of it is absolutely unbelievable, anyway. For example, here's this title: "St. Peter Trapped in Plaster Image of Himself! Heaven Sends Angel Squad to the Rescue! Epic Fight in South Orange!" Really. What kind of sick, twisted mind comes _up_ with this stuff? ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:00:42 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 10:54 PM Subject: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" [snip] > Yaasriel > Seraph Friend of the Quest > Angel of Tabloid Newspapers Holy [bleep], Batman. This is one of those things that just makes so *incredibly* much *sense*... so much so, in fact, that I'm going to forgive you for borrowing the basic concept from "Men In Black". :-) - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:09:23 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" - --- Charles Glasgow wrote: > Holy [bleep], Batman. This is one of those things > that just makes so > *incredibly* much *sense*... so much so, in fact, > that I'm going to forgive > you for borrowing the basic concept from "Men In > Black". :-) Hey, I _wanted_ to slip in a reference ... but Servitors of Revelations can't have Roles, dammit*. :( Moe *Though, when I finally get around to expanding my License to Smite concept, well, /obviously/ Zaddie's rapid response team will officially work for Division Six... ;) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:35:14 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction > What I _would_ suggest is that some sort of gradual > reestablishment of a degraded Role/3 or better be Okay... how? I don't see a way to do it without totally rewriting the Maintenance rules. I'm not being sarcastic when I say I'd like to see how you'd do it. > allowed* - but that later investigations receive some > sort of bonus to penetrate Roles that have been > previously degraded, and later reestablished. A +1 > for every time that a celestial let things slip sounds > about right: the more you screw up, the easier you are > to trace... Assuming we address the above issue, this sounds like a good patch. - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 05:42:11 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Eric Bertish wrote: > OK, this is a flaw on my part. I never considered that someone might want a > Role/6 (Bum). Role/6 (Bum) is amazingly useful, if you don't mind smelling. After all, it is *perfectly normal* for bums to say weird things that don't make sense, especially dire predictions of doom with religious overtones. I imagine Khalid's lot often have roles as homeless guys. > Do you have any friends of driving age, who don't have licenses or even > don't know how to drive? If so, you probably think of them as 'kinda weird', > or maybe even "How can you live like that?" Now add in celestial paranoia... Not necessarily outside of the US. Hell, for that matter, I would suspect that it would be fairly reasonable to not have a driver's license in New York (or any city where it makes little sense to drive anywhere, given that either a) you can walk / get public transport everywhere, or b) it's a right pain to drive). I live in Glasgow, Scotland. I have a driver's license because I grew up in the country of south-west France and needed to be able to drive. I don't need a car in Glasgow. I only have one because I need to move large dogs around. > Yup. An accusation of child molestation, even if proven utterly without > basis, pretty much destroys a person's credibility forever. By moving town / country often enough, that sort of thing can be evaded. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:12:13 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction > > OK, this is a flaw on my part. I never considered that someone might want a > > Role/6 (Bum). > > Role/6 (Bum) is amazingly useful, if you don't mind smelling. After > all, it is *perfectly normal* for bums to say weird things that don't > make sense, especially dire predictions of doom with religious > overtones. I imagine Khalid's lot often have roles as homeless guys. Okay, fine. But still, I imagine that a Role/6 (Bum) requires work. You have to be at that street corner every day at 5pm to panhandle, because by this point you've become so ingrained in the Symphony that passers-by notice when you aren't there. And after a while, they don't think about you so much (the 'out of sight, out of mind' policy). I gotta admit, the general groove I'm getting from this is that folks don't like the idea of having something a PC paid points for being used against him. I reply that a Role is a resource and must be maintained, in the same way that a gun must be kept cleaned and full of ammunition. I don't care how many point you paid for your Holy AK-47, if it doesn't have any ammo it isn't going to work. If this is the main point of contention, we might as well agree to disagree because I'm a former White Wolf GM who believes that everything the PCs have can be used against them in some manner, should my dark whims so dictate. > Not necessarily outside of the US. Hell, for that matter, I would > suspect that it would be fairly reasonable to not have a driver's > license in New York (or any city where it makes little sense to drive > anywhere, given that either a) you can walk / get public transport > everywhere, or b) it's a right pain to drive). Yes, okay, true, but I fear we're getting hung up on specifics. The point is, if you expect to interact meaningfully with the civilized world you are going to have some form of identification and some kind of paper trail. Yes, it is possible not to have these. Yes, expect it to be a pain in the ass to get anything done. Try, just *try* to get a job other than 'dumb manual labor' without a social security number. > I live in Glasgow, Scotland. I have a driver's license because I grew So you're a Glaswegian. I don't have a point here, I just like to say Glaswegian. :) > > Yup. An accusation of child molestation, even if proven utterly without > > basis, pretty much destroys a person's credibility forever. > > By moving town / country often enough, that sort of thing can be evaded. At which point, you're essentially starting with a new Role, neh? - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:19:37 -0500 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Eric Bertish wrote: > OK, this is a flaw on my part. I never considered that someone might want a > Role/6 (Bum). What? Even with me in the game? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:20:25 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Bertish" To: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 12:12 AM Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction [snip] > I gotta admit, the general groove I'm getting from this is that folks don't > like the idea of having something a PC paid points for being used against > him. I reply that a Role is a resource and must be maintained, in the same > way that a gun must be kept cleaned and full of ammunition. I don't care how > many point you paid for your Holy AK-47, if it doesn't have any ammo it > isn't going to work. OTOH, buying and storing ammunition for a weapon in no way compares to taking hours out of one's schedule *every day*... that is (to slip into GURPS-speak) a Duty disadvantage, not an Alternate Identity advantage! Plus, you can buy ammo for a weapon in /one/ transaction and then just store it, as opposed to having to perform the six-hour Ritual Of Ammunition Maintenance every day. Entirely different scale re: investment in time and effort. Not to mention that you pay points for Holy Ammunition as well as Holy Firearms. :-) > If this is the main point of contention, we might as well agree to disagree > because I'm a former White Wolf GM who believes that everything the PCs have > can be used against them in some manner, should my dark whims so dictate. If your players all give informed consent to this before the game starts, then that will work IYC... if not necessarily in ours. If your players don't so agree, then it most likely won't work even IYC. And usually, I DM on the principle of "The rest of the universe is mine anyway, I don't really need to screw the PC's over with their own hard-earned resources. Much." - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:33:38 -0500 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Charles Glasgow wrote: > OTOH, buying and storing ammunition for a weapon in no way compares to > taking hours out of one's schedule *every day*... that is (to slip into > GURPS-speak) a Duty disadvantage, not an Alternate Identity advantage! > Plus, you can buy ammo for a weapon in /one/ transaction and then just store > it, as opposed to having to perform the six-hour Ritual Of Ammunition > Maintenance every day. Entirely different scale re: investment in time and > effort. Werl, to take a different tack with it, Swordies -do- need to spend four hours meditating in an armory for a single note of Essence. And Dreamers have to actively protect a sleeping mortal for -eight- hours for the same single note. [shrug] But, then, I'm one of Eric's players and this sounds too much like work .... :) Seriously, though, what with the campaign plot to follow, playing out role maintenence could be as exciting as the random encounter tables you loathe, Eric, unless it can be treated most of the time with "I go into the office and put in six hours. [roll] Got a 9 on Bureacracy to sneak out of work early. [roll] And an 11 on Performance for eating lunch and loudly complaining about my bladder." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:05:04 -0800 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: Re: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" > Yaasriel > Seraph Friend of the Quest > Angel of Tabloid Newspapers I am officially stealing this for the next campaign I run, man. This makes perfect sense. Though I think he needs a rival. A Balseraph of the Media, of course. Phillip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 02:51:06 -0500 From: "Brian R. Boyko" Subject: IN> Finally Saw Dogma I finally saw Dogma - and as a guy who had never seen a Kevin Smith film before (yet has been to Red Bank numerous times - even to the point of recognizing more than a few of the sets) I did think - wow, this IS like In Nomine. For those of you in my In Nomine game on Pyramid, here is some S p o i l e r s p a c e In fact, I plan to import a few characters from that movie into the IN game I'm running. Here is my question -should I conform Dogma to In Nomine, or In NOmine to dogma - I believe, canonically, Metatron is dead, and there are no Grigori. But having "The pope is infallable" would certainly bring a whole bunch of cool campaign ideas. Brian. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 17:56:36 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction On 27 Dec 2001, 21:55, Eric Bertish wrote: > That depends. Are you completely unnoticed? Or are you doing typically > Hollywood things, like cavorting on nude beaches where tabloid photogs can > take your picture? If the latter, then you're still maintaining the role. Sometimes "doing nothing at all" is maintaining the role. Even a Hollywood star can take a vacation, though making sure the paparazzi don't find you can be difficult. > Essentially, this was created so that PCs wouldn't plunk down the point > for a Role/6 and then not maintain their "secret ID," using only to mask > symphonic distrubances instead of treating it as the active integration > into the web of human relationships that it *should* be. As a GM I'd deal with this (and role maintenance in general) on a contextual basis. There's so many variables that make it hard to mechanise, even though it can be Obvious to a GM that a PC is twinking. > > Hawaii for a week? This sounds more like it should affect Status level, > > and a week is still a rather arbitrary figure to pluck. > > Highly arbitrary. I was trying to go rules-light without being completely > without guidelines. What would you recommend instead of a week? It's not really something one can pin down without getting rules-heavy, yes. One thing I'd reccomend is have it hurt Status first. A cop who keeps poor hours, shows up for work late, etc - oh dear, your Police Detective got demoted and transferred from Homicide to Traffic duty! (status 3 instead of 4). Blatant role-abuse can lead to more problems ("Sir, we're with Internal Affairs - please come with us"). A Role/6 won't save you from bureaucracy, and if your Superior gave you that role for you to maintain, there can be Hell to pay - literally! :) > > Also, some Roles are more demanding of a celestial's time than others > > (consider Joe, Homeless Nobody/6, with Bob, American President/6 - Joe > > is Status 1, and if he goes missing for a day maybe nobody would notice > > at all, but Bob is Status 6, and if he goes missing for fifteen minutes > > the Secret Service are just the first of many who are going to freak > > out). > > OK, this is a flaw on my part. I never considered that someone might want > a Role/6 (Bum). Heh. Yep. Status is how important you are in the social pecking order; Level is how deeply your relationships are woven into the Symphony (the very stuff that Mercurians resonate). To your average mortal joe, a Role/6 (Bum) is something to avoid; to a celestial, it can be a great supply of contacts, informants, friends, opportunities and more amongst the social outcasts and underground of humanity. > While it is possible to be a legal citizen of the US without your picture > being on an official document, it's very, *very* difficult. I rather > assumed that celestial intelligence agencies would consider these > anomalies suspect anyway, and treat them as they would handle any other > potential enemy agent. Do you have any friends of driving age, who don't > have licenses or even don't know how to drive? If so, you probably think > of them as 'kinda weird', or maybe even "How can you live like that?" Now > add in celestial paranoia... Heh. Me. I'm of driving age, don't have a license and don't know how to drive. And yes, I get "how can you live like that?" asked of me; I have a medical condition that prevents me from driving. On the other hand there are people who choose not to drive. There are a LOT of people in the world who have minimal govt documentation, and in the US there are people (citizens, even) who have avoided having a SSN... and then there are the illegal immigrants. And remember all of these people (in our world) have Roles of level 6. It's only their Status that is low. > No, because celestials aren't human, and never have been. A determined > search with enough money and manpower behind might turn up something > unusual in a celestial's brackground that a human wouldn't have. > ("Funny... Jo Beth grew up on a farm and the doctor who delivered her says > she's never been sick or broken a bone, ever. But all her brothers had > chicken pox at the same time....") True. Though if I was an Archangel planning on a Jo Beth (Role/6), I'd make sure she'd appeared to have been sick, bruised, whatever. Want to spot the Role/6 Celestials? Look for people for whom your background checks come out *too* perfect. Except that the Archangels know all about statistical anomalies too... > > If the role degradation repair rules as above were used, any Role higher > > than 2 will be impossible to repair. > > Yup. An accusation of child molestation, even if proven utterly without > basis, pretty much destroys a person's credibility forever. In other words, their Status takes a dive. It doesn't affect how woven they are into the Symphony (indeed, one could make an argument that they've been woven tighter, because suddenly a lot more people know about them, about their life, their history, etcetera, thanks to the prying eyes of the news media). > > These sorts of game mechanics are difficult to quantify abstractly, > > I tried, though! And thanks for the feedback. Most welcome! Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:43:47 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Eric Bertish wrote: > I gotta admit, the general groove I'm getting from this is that folks don't > like the idea of having something a PC paid points for being used against > him. I reply that a Role is a resource and must be maintained, in the same > way that a gun must be kept cleaned and full of ammunition. I don't care how > many point you paid for your Holy AK-47, if it doesn't have any ammo it > isn't going to work. Yeah, but you're basically suggesting they go around doing mundane (not necessarily very interesting to roleplay) "chores" in order to keep a Resource. "Oops, you forgot to go panhandle this week in your Bum Role - -- lose a Role level." It makes sense that Roles (usually) require some maintenance, but I suggest that be used for plot hooks, rather than making it a bookkeeping task for the players. "Gee, your Bum hasn't been seen on the streets in months, and suddenly he reappears. People are asking questions, and there's a nosy Servitor of Judgment who's become suspicious...." Also, some Roles might NOT require maintenance (or not as much). It depends on the realism level of your campaign, but my write-up of Mastema, for example (http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Mastema.html) has a Role/6 (Lawyer) which is unspecified; wherever he's needed, Asmodeus pulls strings and suddenly Mastema belongs there and is a seamless part of the Symphony. Granted this is for a powerful NPC with direct help from a Superior, but I imagine some Roles can be done with smoke and mirrors. > If this is the main point of contention, we might as well agree to disagree > because I'm a former White Wolf GM who believes that everything the PCs have > can be used against them in some manner, should my dark whims so dictate. If your players understand that going in, it's fine, but it would be a nasty trick to play on them after they've already bought the Role, to find out that they have to go do boring stuff at your whim or lose the points. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 05:40:04 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction - --- Eric Bertish wrote: > Role Maintenance I like this a lot. One thing I'd change, though: > If, during the next week, the > celestial spends double > the amount of hours neglected, the Role may be returned > to normal on the > eighth day. This penalty is cumulative, which means that > any Role higher > than 2 becomes effectively impossible to repair if > neglected. I'd make the PC spend both time and Character Points to repair a neglected Role. CP is easy -- that's equal to buying up to the next level. I'd be more of a hardnose on time, though; I think that building even one level of a Role beyond Role/1 should take at least 24 hours. > 3. Destruction. Compared to the previous steps, this last > stage is pitifully > easy. Deletion of credit records, alteration or > destruction of paperwork, > and 'liquidation' of those able to affirm the celestial's > identity are all > standard procedure. By destroying each link the celestial > has to the Role's > 'realness', the less effective it becomes. Assume it > takes one week of > active 'deletion' to degrade a Role one level. Considering that this costs a PC Character Points, it seems a little harsh to let so much damage be done in one week. Still, it's realistic. Perhaps a compromise; leave the Destruction phase as is but make the Penetration phase more difficult (roles should be hard to penetrate). Other than those two points, I think this is great. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor." -- Seneca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 05:47:42 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction - --- Shane wrote: > Something doesn't seem right here. If I'm "Arnold > Schwarzenegger", my > Role/6 degrades to a Role/5 if I kick back and enjoy the > tropical sun in Hawaii for a week? No, because movie stars are expected to take extravagent vacations. In this case, kicking back and enjoying the tropical sun in Hawaii is Role maintenance. > Also, some Roles are more demanding of a celestial's time > than others Good point. Perhaps linking the required maintenance time to the Role's Status as well as level would work? > I'd change that to "suspected celestial". Note that a > large number of > people manage to avoid having a police record too, simply > by never > attracting that kind of attention (or do the US police > keep the > name/address/SSN of every US citizen? I'm an Aussie). Another good point. And no, police depts. don't have all that info on every US citizen -- but the FBI probably does. > DMV - Department of > Motor Vehicles? What if the person doesn't have a > driver's license? I have a friend who is in his late 20's and has never had a driver's license, credit card, bank loan or police record. According to the rules above, he'd be pegged as a Celestial. However, even he agrees that he's unusual, so such cases do warrant further investigation. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor." -- Seneca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2496 ********************************