in_nomine-digest Sunday, December 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2498 In this digest: IN> Huh. Re: IN> Huh. Re: IN> Huh. Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction Re: IN> Huh. Re: IN> Huh. Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma IN> Diversions (Was Role Maintainance) Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma Re: IN> Finally saw Dogma (warning, possible, lowkey spoilers) Re: IN> Finally saw Dogma (warning, possible, lowkey spoilers) Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma Re: IN> Finally saw Dogma (warning, possible, lowkey spoilers) Angels and their Roles [Was: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction] Re: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" IN> New Attunement for Marc Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:17:33 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Huh. Hey, if Superiors have access to all of their Servitor/Choir Attunements... ....what angelic resonance can Kronos emulate? ;) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 11/13/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:24:06 -0800 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: Re: IN> Huh. I thought about that one for a while myself, and I'll be darned if I could think of one that really works. As much as I like that attunement, it always felt a little strange to me, as it requires a Balseraph, those who are, on the face of things, the most selfish among a selfish people, to take up selfless behavior. I wonder how Asmodeus feels about it? Phillip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian Or is he... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:47:50 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Huh. > it requires a Balseraph the most selfish among a selfish people, to take >up selfless behavior. Actually, most of the angelic dissonance conditions are not particularly selfless. Objectivity and unability to stay still are not particularly benevolent requirements. And as the demon is able to pick whatever vows he wants if he takes the Malakim resonance, that one doesn't need to be too benevolent either. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:10:34 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction At 12:53 PM 12/28/01 -0500, you wrote: >I honestly don't understand why folks are so up in arms about this. There >isn't as much screwing going on as everyone seems to think. My main problem is this: I work hard at establishing a Role. I work, in fact, for *years* at establishing it to level 6. Then, after telling my friends and my boss that I'm taking a week off and going hiking, while on a covert op in another vessel, I get killed, and spend two months in Trauma. At the end of that time in Trauma, I return to Earth in my level 6 Role - only to find out that because I've been in Trauma for two months, my Role has been reduced to level 1 and *cannot be re-established* to the level I had it before. That doesn't seem quite right. (Yes, this isn't likely to happen. But it *could*.) In point of fact, I rather like the rules as they stand, this one loophole notwithstanding, and they bring up a *lot* of plot seeds in my mind. :) - -EDG "It's a relief that our search teams finally located you again, Mr... what was your name again?" "President Gordon." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 07:46:17 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Huh. Maurice Lane wrote: > Hey, if Superiors have access to all of their > Servitor/Choir Attunements... > > ...what angelic resonance can Kronos emulate? A couple people I spoke to guessed Elohite, but myself, I'd guess he has all the angelic resonances. (Except that of the Bright Lilim, and perhaps the Grigori and Menunim.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:57:34 -0800 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: Re: IN> Huh. > A couple people I spoke to guessed Elohite, but myself, I'd guess he has > all the angelic resonances. (Except that of the Bright Lilim, and > perhaps the Grigori and Menunim.) Actually, now that you mention it, Elohite would be interesting, taken the other way. An Elohite must be Objective at all times, working based on what is the most selfless course of action, that which will aid Heaven the most. Kronos must do the opposite, working on what will aid the cause of Hell the most. Which would make him an interesting contradiction: Selflessly devoted to the cause of Selfishness. Phillip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:54:12 -0800 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma > As to the Grigori, they do still exist. They're just > Outcast from Heaven (which conforms to Bartleby's status) > and there are no rules for playing them (except in GURPS > IN). Actually, I always thought that Bartleby would be a Mercurian, judging by his behavior. It really works when you consider the scene where he (let's face it) Falls. Consider all the violence of the previous scenes. Phillip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:11:16 -0800 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: IN> Diversions (Was Role Maintainance) I've been thinking about comments people have said regarding Celestials monitoring people who seem 'statistically suspicious': the whole Driver's licence thing, for starters. I was thinking that Infernals (and possibly some of the truly rutheless among the Host) might use this as a diversionary tactic, trying to direct opposing attentions toward mortals with those traits. That way, they might be diverted from following the -real- Celestial. Mind you, I imagine this falls into the category of 'easier said than done.' Philip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:15:43 -0500 From: Christopher Pipinou Subject: Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:54:12 -0800 "Phillip Des Jardins" writes: > Actually, I always thought that Bartleby would be a Mercurian, judging > by his behavior. It really works when you consider the scene where he > (let's face it) Falls. Consider all the violence of the previous scenes. Glad I'm not the only one - he struck me as Mercurian too. As for Loki... highly dissonant Malakite? Elohite, even? Probably worked for Judgment... or maybe Purity? Best, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:19:26 -0800 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma Loki (God I hated that name. It made -no- sense) was easy. Malakite of Fire. Just watch the boardroom scene. Phillip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian, Who loves that movie, but only watches it when he doesn't mind having his head explode ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:54:37 -0500 (EST) From: jamoge@wm.edu Subject: Re: IN> Finally saw Dogma (warning, possible, lowkey spoilers) On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:54:12 -0800 "Phillip Des Jardins" writes: > Actually, I always thought that Bartleby would be a Mercurian, judging > by his behavior. It really works when you consider the scene where he > (let's face it) Falls. Consider all the violence of the previous scenes. Glad I'm not the only one - he struck me as Mercurian too. snip Wait wait. Perhaps my understanding of canon is completely off, but a Mercurian/Impudite slaughtering people? Something doesn't seem kosher. I could definitely see Bartleby as a Grigori, since he's a 'Watcher' who Fell to become a Nephallim (tiptoeing around the canon landmine). I understand the link to Mercurian (since he could pick up on relationships), but would that pick up on the things that the boardroom members had done? That seems more Watcher like than Friend of Humanity. As for Loki as a Malakite... yeah, that would work. Possibly took the name while he was working for Uriel in order to anger the Norse pantheon. Switched over to Gabriel long before Uriel got called up to God, probably because Gabriel saw potential for the messenger of fiery doom. There's that, and the fact he didn't Fall along with Bartleby. Admittedly that could just be luck of personality, but still, does lend itself to thought. Slapping a couple of pennies on the counter, Josh Moger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:32:31 -0800 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: Re: IN> Finally saw Dogma (warning, possible, lowkey spoilers) > Wait wait. Perhaps my understanding of canon is > completely off, but a Mercurian/Impudite slaughtering > people? Something doesn't seem kosher. snip That's the point. He Fell -bacause- of his behavior. By the time he Fell, he was way to imbalanced to get it under control. > I understand the link to > Mercurian (since he could pick up on relationships), > but would that pick up on the things that the boardroom > members had done? That seems more Watcher like than > Friend of Humanity. I always figured Loki did the research for that scene. It seemed that way to me. Phillip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:20:05 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma > > Loki (God I hated that name. It made -no- sense) was easy. Malakite >of >Fire. Depends on how closely you want to bring it to In Nomine. If I remember correctly, in Dogma Loki was the angel of death and agent of God's judgment (having brought down Soddom and Gomorrah). This seems pretty big (especially since in folklore, Gabriel is usually the one who brought down S&G). Perhaps he's a former Superior, who God brought into His presence and stripped him of Superior status. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:22:15 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Finally saw Dogma (warning, possible, lowkey spoilers) Except Impudites don't like slaughtering humans much more than Mercurians do. Mercurians generally fall because they start to lose empathy for humans, treat them just like pets. They usually don't fall into wholesale slaughter. I think Grigori fits Bartalby a little better. >That's the point. He Fell -bacause- of his behavior. By the time he Fell, >he was way to imbalanced to get it under control. > - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:44:19 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Angels and their Roles [Was: Re: IN> Role Maintenance and Destruction] I think an important part of this topic (which has been overlooked so far) is not how players view Roles, but rather how Celestials themselves view them. Having a Role basically means becoming a mortal human, at least in part. This means living intensivly amongst mortals, sharing the human condition, as it were. It means BEING Human, and not just a Celestial. Such a transformation must have some effect on the Celestial recieving a Role, which must vary depending on the Celestial's Choir or Band. Here are my thoughts on the subject: Angels, taught that their place is to serve God by aiding Humanity, generally come to love Humanity, but for most, it's an idealized love that comes from studying the Blessed Humans in Heaven. Only Angels assigned to Corporeal Duty tend to learn what Human life is on Earth, but to Angels without Roles, their experience of Human life will always be limited, and he will always be on the outside looking in. But an Angel assigned a Role gains what can be seen as a powerful privilege, as well as a responsibility. He is given the Privilege of being able to live like a Human, amongst Humans, with all the details and perks that the level of the Role will allow. But this privilege is a double-edged sword, as the Angel must learn to balance the mortal responsibilities of his Role with his Duties to his Archangel. Angels being groomed for Roles are almost constantly reminded of the Watchers' exile as a lesson in not letting a Role become so important as to cause you to neglect your Angelic duties. But just to make sure, Triads of Judgement tend to check up on Angels who don't send in regular reports to their Archangels, just to make sure they're not "going native"... Seraphim, with their inability to lie, tend to have trouble adjusting to Roles at first. In their mindset, assuming a Role doesn't mean you're lying about your true nature, it simply means your true nature has been altered somewhat from the norm amongst Seraphim. Having a Role means being made to be in part human, at least human enough so that answering some questions such as "what's your name?" or "Where are you from?" allows the Seraphim to give mundane answers like "John Smith" or "New York City" without lying, because while assuming his Role, he IS John Smith of New York City. They don't tend to assume High Level roles, however, as their personal "Handicap" makes it difficult for them to socialize very well. Those who do tend to be known as "silent" or "blunt" people. Cherubim love Roles... It allows them to be close to the people they're attuned to, helping and protecting them in so many ways. To them, the proverb "Your best friend is an Angel in Disguise" is a statement of how a Cherub in a Role should act: They'll be the best friend you didn't know you had, the co-worker who's always willing to lend you a hand, or the kind-hearted neighbor who actually tries to be honestly friendly. Cherubim are often cleared for High Level Roles, since they have the responsible attitude needed to take care of maintaining such a precious privilege. Ofanim tend to see their Roles as a vehicule they drive while on Earth, to navigate the complex roads and avenues of Human Society, and see it's maintance to be similar to that one would give a motorcycle or a car: Some Roles are limited in their social access, but easy to maintain, while others are all-terrain, but are veritable "Hanger Queens". They prefer Roles that allow them to stay in motion for a good period of time. Taxi Drivers, Traveling salesmen, Ambulance Personel... In their Roles, Ofanim are known for being impulsive, hot blooded and unable to sit still for any long period of time. But they're also know for always being punctual, always knowing what direction they're going, and for being able to dance very well. Elohim see Roles as a tool with which to immerse one's self amongst the masses of Humanity, observing and analyzing Humans in action and learning more about the Human condition first hand. In their Roles, Elohim tend to be private and low-key, preferring to observe Humanity from the sidelines to being an active member of Human society. To interfere too much would be to lose one's objectivity in the observation of Humanity. This is not to say they never interfere, however. They simply limit their actions to the minimum necessary to perform their missions. With their ability to understand Human emotions and motivations, they tend to see Role Maintance as exercices in social mechanics, and actually relish it's challenges. Malakim see Roles as personal missions assigned to them. A Deep Cover to assume and lay low with, playing Observer for their Archangel until they are called in for an active mission. They are extremely dedicated to maintaining their Roles, many even making a Vow to be true to the life and loved ones connected to their Roles. Kyriotates: It's very rare for Dominations to have Roles, but for those who do, those Roles tend to exist entirely on paper: PO Boxes, Swiss Bank Accounts, online pseudonymes, etc. These never ranged beyond Level 1. Mercurians: Aside from the outcast Grigori, no other Choir loves having Roles as much as the Friends of Man do. They consider it an honor to be giving a part to play amongst the masses of Humanity, and think of Maintaining their Roles a pleasure rather then a duty. In fact, quite a few Mercurians eventually consider their Celestial Duties to be interruptions of their Roles, rather then their true purpose. As can be expected, Judgement keeps an eye on Mercurians with high level Roles, as more then a few of those have eventually "gone native", neglecting their Celestial duties... Tomorrow, I'll share my thoughts on Demons and their Roles... - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:40:49 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> "Debutant Naked Yogurt Wrestling Ring Revealed!!!!!" At 23:10 -0800 12/28/01, Maurice Lane wrote: >--- Genevieve Cogman wrote: >> Out of curiosity, how is this angel working to make >> Tabloids a force for good in the mortal world, or >> using them to direct humans towards the course >> of Heaven? > >Curse you and your inconveniently pertinent questions. > ;) > >Seriously... hmm. I can think of several >rationalizations: Make him a Creationer IST Revelations, and it makes more sense. 1) It comes under the "hide in plain sight" principle. The War *can't* be revealed, yet sometimes it will be. So a Revelations servitor is assigned to make sure that such revelations *don't* blow the cover on the war by making sure they show up in the tabloids first. Then no one will believe them. 2) Fiction is a Good Thing, to a Creationer. He got his Word under Creation, back in the days when the newspapers were more, uh, creative with the news. When Eli went walkies, he wound up under Revelations, as the closest match. 3) Revelations needs a "relief valve" for the pressure of having to conceal the War from the human masses -- it keeps Litheroy from going bonkers. "Fictional" tales about angels and demons would also serve this purpose, and maybe that's where he started -- a Seraph would be interested in promoting True fiction.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:58:57 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> New Attunement for Marc This struck me as appropriate for Trade. As always comments/criticisms etc welcome: Mail Order This attunement allows the Trader to buy the performance of a Song or Attunement. Once the Trader has decided what Song or Attunement he would like to purchase, his Heart flashes, and anyone observing the heart will see the Trader's request emblazoned on the Heart. (Traders with this attunement keep their Hearts at a large amphitheatre in Commerce Park, where their fellows are available to fulfil the contract). The requested Song or Attunement can be performed on the Trader's Heart, as if the performer had previously performed a Song of Transferral. Of course, the desired Song or attunement must be available (although Trader can choose to ask for 'any Song or attunement that will solve...X') - common Songs and Marc's attunements are always available, other may take some time to arrange. Of course, the Trader now owes the performer; the fee for a common Song is essence equal to the essence spent plus the CD of the Song; one of Marc's attunements carries a fee of 10 essence, one of Laurence's 15 (plus 3 times the sale of value of any weapon provided by Scabbard, or essence equal to the number of Soul hits lost to Divine Absolution), 20 or more for other attunements - if an angel with the attunement can be found. The Trader has access to the attunement for as long as the angel with it maintains contact with his Heart; long term access to an attunement is hideously expensive. Payment can be arranged through Marc's organisation; the Trader has up to a year to pay off the debt (although regular payment must be made - failure to do so may cause 'foreclosure' with the Trader's Heart being removed form the amphitheatre), while defaulting violates Marc's dissonance conditions. Rites can also be channelled through the Attunement, although this is rarely cost effective...on the upside, the cost of the Rite goes direct to the Rite holder, with the excess going to the Trader. A Rite normally costs one Essence per use to buy. Cheers, James. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:13:06 -0500 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:19:26 -0800 "Phillip Des Jardins" writes: > Loki (God I hated that name. It made -no- sense) was easy. > Malakite of Fire. Just watch the boardroom scene. What, you mean like naming an Archangel in In Nomine after a Roman god? ;) - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:19:06 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Finally Saw Dogma > > What, you mean like naming an Archangel in In Nomine after a Roman god? > Or after a Babylonian god. Especially since in Christian folklore, he (or at least a very similar deity) is described as a demon (are Oannes and Dagon the same god, or am I getting my mythology mixed up?). - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2498 ********************************