in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 19 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2550 In this digest: RE: IN> Jordi (rant) Re: IN> Jordi (rant) IN> Executions in Heaven Re: IN> Consider Animals Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> The Lord of the Undead Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> if only ... (shedim) Re: IN> Jordi (rant) Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> Jordi RE: IN> Jordi (rant) IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant) RE: IN> Jordi (rant) Re: IN> Jordi (rant) Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> Jordi (rant) Re: IN> Jordi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:26:52 -0700 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> Jordi (rant) << > No, he's not. >-David You go Dave! Put her in her place! >> I can accept that I irked David somehow because my rant might have come off as insulting his work, and I can understand that. But my thoughts here are as valid as anyone else, and I think it's you that needs to be "put in her place" if you want to talk of me like that. This is an open forum, after all... By and by, I'm male. The name is usually a giveaway. - -- Julia(n) Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:07:26 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi (rant) From: "Julian Mensch" > > I'm not sure about that. Michael doesn't see war as the > answer to everything; He views everything as a struggle, for it is War as Struggling against something that is the truest embodiment of his Word. That is why it also encompasses the peace that follows warfare, for then the struggle is, at the least, against vengeance on either side. > Jean doesn't seem interested in > _unconditional_ progress. That is because Lightning is not about unconditional progress; rather, it is about inspiration, at least insofar as he furthers it in the modern era. > Novalis allows for necessary > violence. That is because Flowers will struggle against each other for the ground and nutrients that they need. Her Word is not Total Pacifism, after all. > I don't see Laurence putting Muslims to the > sword, That would be not only because it has nothing to do with his Word beyond the use of the word "sword." > or Janus going as incoherantly dynamic as Tattered > Demogorgon. That is because the Wind is not incoherently dynamic. > Marc certainly would agree that there are some > things that just shouldn't be the subject of Trade (like > souls, or moral values) That is because trading in such things leave no room for fairness. > and Blandine does not want all > fear and nightmare obliterated. How do we know this? > That is why they are heros -- you can't be an hero > and a zealot bound in tunnel vision at the same time, Batman can be, and in many of his current protrayals is. > This is not my reading of the text. There's room > for both interpretations, but I think that the text > heavily hints that Jordi is perfectly willing to > slaughter people: > > "They gain dissonance if they value human life above > animal life." This does not mean that he condones slaughter of humans. His servitors can place equal value on human life as they do to other forms of animal life, they simply can't treat human life as inherently more valuable. > "...anyone who willfully violates Jordi's rules, _or fails > to give the Archangel proper respect_, will be cast out and > possibly devoured." > > (Lots of Archangels are understandably harsh about insolence, > but Jordi is the only one who will _kill_ over it. That's > classical supervillian behaviour, honestly.) What is your opinion of the possibility that Uriel killed any servitor who acquired dissonance? Or of Khalid's outcasting of servitors who fail to show a proper (to him) level of Faith? > > 3. Whenever Jordi comes into the books, he seems to drag > > with him a whole steaming pile of new age dung > > I thought that was Eli, Blandine, and Novalis. ;) > >> > > Their perspective is bent to fit the game, whereas I > feel the game is bent to fit Jordi's perspective. That is due to your perspective, rather than to the game itself. > In fairness, about the only thing we have on Jordi is > his basic rulebook writeup. > >> > > *Exactly* my point! I'm not bashing the game (or your > writing) here. I'm just saying that _based on what we > have_, he's broken. And what I'm saying is that he's not broken; he's merely not to your taste. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:17:44 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Executions in Heaven Counterpoint on Jordi devouring servitors I do believe Dominic kills his servitors who rebel as oppose to outcast them because of the potential for their falling and of course we know Uriel kills any dissonant servitors....admittadly he's not a great example...but it implies further dissonant malks are hunted down by their fellows and probably with the tactit approval of Laurence and David. In David's case the fight of course would have to be picked. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:03:18 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Consider Animals Interesting... ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:10:13 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited - --- Jonathan Walton wrote: > Any thoughts on why, in canon, Jordi decided not to side > with the Lightbringer? As AA of Animals, Jordi understands ecosystems and the natural order. By rebelling against God, Lucifer stepped outside of the natural order which even angels are subject to. No way could Jordi support that and stay in his right minds. And yes, I meant that plural; he's a Kyrio, after all. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:12:51 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Lord of the Undead An interesting NPC. My one question is, why would he want to become a Vampire? In light of the fact that vampirism in IN is the result of a failed attempt to make a Mummy, I can't see anyone volunteering to become a Vampire if being a Mummy is an option. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:17:01 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Jordi - --- Vaughn Romero wrote: > This discussion of Jordi's write-up reminds me of a > Rorschach inkblot: > > Person 1: "I see an evil monster." > Person 2: "I see a silly eco-terrorist." > Person 3: "I don't see enough ink to be a complete > write-up." > Person 4: "Look! a bunny!" Heh. Let me take a wild guess as to which of those was Moe... ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:12:42 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> if only ... (shedim) Perry Lloyd wrote: > > ... shedim really existed. > > http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/02/18/yates.trial/index.html > > Then this sort of thing might make sense. You don't need demons to explain mental illness. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:40:38 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Jordi (rant) Julian Mensch wrote: > Har. > >> > > It helps if you actually refute the point, or at least > disagree in a civil manner. I did. That doesn't preclude an occasional wry or bemused aside. My "har" was because Derek Pearcy, the much-aforementioned original IN writer, was hardly very politically correct. (See: "Archangel of Rag-Headed Truck Bombers.") > If you want a solid example > of the PC mindset in Jordi's writeup, consider: > > "When they kill, it must be cleanly and without pain, > as is the custom of Jordi." > > Animals (arguably) never intend to cause pain for the > _sake_ of causing pain, but there are a huge number of > species who do things that could rightly be said to be > exceedingly painful to their prey. Which is why "cleanly and without pain" is the custom of JORDI, not the custom of animalkind. Jordi is an angel. He does everything animals do, but better, and with a moral imperative they don't have. Jordi is NOT some kind of Primal Animal Spirit. He is an Archangel. > Another PC element of Jordi is that the Native Americans > were "some of the only people that he really liked on > Earth." (Marches 102). Yes, the constant reference to Native Americans as Friends of the Earth and All Things Fuzzy annoys me too, and it's something I've been trying to take out of the EPG. And the "Native Americans are the only people Jordi really liked" is something I'd certainly try to change in an expanded Jordi writeup. > I see no textual support for this whatsoever. I'm not going to go look up every Jordi reference right now, but it's certainly implied, and certainly no less so than YOUR interpretation that he wanted to wipe out humans just for the sake of animals. > It's an> interesting idea, but I think it attributes a *lot* of > reasoned prescience to a very instinct-driven Archangel. Jordi is an Archangel. He certainly follows his instincts much of the time, but like humans, he is also a reasoning being. > Can you show me _any_ human writings that indicate anyone > believed man would become a serious threat to the ecosystem > prior to about 1700? In IN, or outside it? In the real world, people didn't have much of a concept of the ecosystem prior to 1700 (though they certainly could perceive that large cities like London and Paris were stinking pits). > If nobody else saw it coming, then why> did Jordi? Because he's an Archangel. > Okay, add "seriously" in there before hurt. Define "seriously." Serious enough to alter global climactic patterns? No. Serious enough to alter the environment of large swaths of land (North Africa) and drive species to extinction? Absolutely. > I'm not sure about that. Michael doesn't see war as the > answer to everything; I doubt he even thinks it really > solves many problems. Michael's kind of a special case, having been an Archangel before he got his present Word. > Jean doesn't seem interested in > _unconditional_ progress. He's the Archangel of Lightning, not the Archangel of Scientific Advancement. > Novalis allows for necessary> violence. The botanical world can be quite violent. > I don't see Laurence putting Muslims to the> sword, He's not the Archangel of Christianity. > or Janus going as incoherantly dynamic as Tattered > Demogorgon. Wind doesn't have to be incoherent. > Marc certainly would agree that there are some > things that just shouldn't be the subject of Trade (like > souls, or moral values) Trade is also about relationships and diplomacy, not just monetary exchanges. He's not the Archangel of Money. > and Blandine does not want all> fear and nightmare obliterated. Because fears and nightmares are part of Dreams. > Most Archangels serve their Word, moderating that > service with a basically moral and benevolant outlook As does Jordi. > and an awareness that there is more under Heaven and > Earth than just Flowers or Trade or what have you. They're aware of it, but that doesn't mean they don't consider their Word to be the overriding factor in the Symphony. > That is why they are heros -- you can't be an hero > and a zealot bound in tunnel vision at the same time, Sure you can. Many heroes in many cultures have been zealots. > because if you're the latter, it's just a matter of > time until you do something, well, evil. By someone's standards. And doing something evil doesn't necessarily make the person evil. > This, I guess, is why so few games decide to go the > "moral absolutes" rule. It's _difficult_ to portray a > group of extremely diverse mindsets, avoid "goody-two- > shoes" stereotypes and have them all come off as heroic > to most readers. Doubly so if your "heros" were ori- > ginally satirical jabs at pop architypes. The other problem is that it's damn hard to get any two people to agree on what "moral absolutes" exist. > I'm strict about who I consider a hero. Jordi, based > on what I've read, doesn't qualify. He goes beyond > flawed hero and into the realm of misguided and tragic > villian. In my reading, at least. And Novalis et al > supporting him tarnishes them by extension. Archangels aren't necessarily _supposed_ to be heroes. The PCs are. > OH. This was a serious mistake on my part, then. I > thought canonical IN was meant to be high contrast. How > exactly would you rate it? It's never precisely pinned down, _because_ we don't want to tell people running low-contrast games "Sorry, your campaign is non-canonical." I think the implication is pretty strong that the canonical universe is moderately high-contrast, but there's plenty of wiggle-room. My personal preferences are not necessarily representative of the canonical setting (nor would I want them to be in all cases). > This is not my reading of the text. Consider rereading it, then. > There's room > for both interpretations, but I think that the text > heavily hints that Jordi is perfectly willing to > slaughter people: If _necessary_. Not because he just doesn't like them. > (Jordi's Soldiers, CPG) > "These people tend to be hard-core animal rights zealots, > and while some are activists engaged in conservationist > movements, many are combatants who join eco-terrorist > groups." You'd have to be a hard-core zealot to believe that humans are not more valuable than animals. There's a big difference between the ASPCA and PETA. > (Maybe you see eco-terrorists, or people who sponsor them, > as being heroic. If so, that's a different of our IRL morals, > because I most certainly don't.) If I were in the IN universe, I wouldn't want to be a Soldier of Jordi. ;) I also don't see skinheads and gang members are heroic, but some of them are Soldiers of Stone. Your premise seems to be "No one with unpleasant attitudes should be in the service of Heaven," which definitely runs counter to much published canon. > > "...anyone who willfully violates Jordi's rules, _or fails > to give the Archangel proper respect_, will be cast out and > possibly devoured." > > (Lots of Archangels are understandably harsh about insolence, > but Jordi is the only one who will _kill_ over it. That's > classical supervillian behaviour, honestly.) Dominic has been described as someone who would as soon kill a Servitor as allow them to disagree with or disobey him. Also, the statement above leaves room for interpetation as to what will provoke Jordi into devouring you. Slapping his face and tugging at his whiskers probably would, but I don't see him killing his Servitors for the slightest misstep. > There's also talk about how Jordi dislikes Servitors appearing > before him in human vessels, and I read an implication that he > seems bigoted against humanity. Bigotry is never a heroic > trait, especially in the extremely general and zealous extent > Jordi takes it. A lot of Archangels are "bigots" in that sense. Laurence prefers his Servitors to be Catholic, and rarely promotes those who aren't. Khalid, Muslims. David has no tolerance for the weak. Michael doesn't think much of civilians. And so on. > Actually, there's considerable evidence that several species of animals > are pretty close to being sapient by any reasonable definition (and I'm > >> > > Sapient, I might believe. "Sapient" is what most people mean when they say "sentient." A hamster is sentient. A human is sapient. A dolphin is sentient and may or may not be sapient. > I didn't mean to say that. What I do mean to say is > that I think *moral awareness* and *moral conflict* are > beyond the vast majority of animals. Beyond the vast majority of them, I have no doubt. But if ANY animals are capable of moral reasoning, it implies that ALL animals have that potential (with sufficient time to evolve). > I think that's *exactly* what he's doing. God said that > man was by definition special, and Jordi seems to be working > very hard at denying that, No, he's not. Way back when, he denied it, and then Michael had a talk with him, and since then Jordi _hasn't been trying_ to exterminate humans! But God never said "Humans should be allowed to live in huge cities, melt the icecaps, and consume mass quantities of other species".... > And after telling me I'm wrong rather rudely, you go on > in your last sentence here to say the exact same thing that > I am. I'm saying that the original vision of the game might have supported your stance. The current one (and what's been written, ABOUT Jordi) doesn't. > If the author of the only long text on Jordi we have > meant for him to be a nutjob, how can you say (in canon) > that he's not? Because other snippets about Jordi since then have not supported the idea that he's a genocidal nutjob. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:14:33 -0500 From: Eric Eves Subject: Re: IN> Jordi > Jordi: "Your plan sounds too risky to me, First Soul. Maybe Michael will > give me a big rock." Great line. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:28:51 -0500 (EST) From: jamoge@wm.edu Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Intelligently phrased and vaguely hilarious. > This discussion of Jordi's write-up reminds me > of a Rorschach inkblot: > > Person 1: "I see an evil monster." > Person 2: "I see a silly eco-terrorist." > Person 3: "I don't see enough ink to be a > complete write-up." > Person 4: "Look! a bunny!" Anyone want to match the above four up to members of the list? (4's gotta be Moe...) > Jordi: "I need a big rock to kill the humans." > Yves: "No, humans were the new life form I was > talking about earlier. They > have a Destiny." > Jordi: "But they will destroy much of the life > we have created." > Yves: "That is part of their struggle. They must > learn of the consequences > of their actions for themselves." > Jordi: "Your plan sounds too risky to me, First > Soul. Maybe Michael will > give me a big rock." This is going in my quote list... > Lucifer: "We can put things back to the way they > were - the way you know > that they are meant to be." > Jordi: "God has a plan for the humans. They are > meant to struggle, as am I > with their actions." > Lucifer: "You could control the humans, make > them live the way you want them > to." > Jordi: "Such a species does not merit so much of > my attention. They are but > one animal in my care." etc. Exactly why Jordi is the Archangel of Animals and not the Demon Prince of Humans or Genocide, or what not. He's not a Shedite focused obsessively on one species or animal, he's a Kyriotate who understands and encompasses the whole of animal life, even humanity (despite their seemingly urgent need to remove themselves from the rest of animal life). Josh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:07:13 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Jordi (rant) - --- Julian Mensch wrote: > Animals (arguably) never intend to cause pain for the > _sake_ of causing pain, but there are a huge number of > species who do things that could rightly be said to be > exceedingly painful to their prey. The difference here is the presence or absence of malice. Is being Vessel-killed painful to a demon? Absolutely. Does Jordi care? Nope. Such an action is necessary for the well-being of Jordi's protectorate. Jordi might take a dim view of Servitors who enjoyed killing, but he won't stop them from doing their jobs just because somebody gets hurt. That said, it wouldn't hurt to reword Jordi's Dissonance condition to specify that his angels shouldn't cause _unnecessary_ pain. > > They didn't have the *technology* to hurt the > enviornment until two centuries ago! It doesn't take technology to hurt the environment. If Jordi was going to go ballistic every time an individual species did something destructive on a large scale, _he'd_ be behind some of the mass extinctions. Case in point: a nasty bit of microfauna called gonyalaux (sp?). Red tide falls well within what'd I'd call hurting the environment. Then there are the (so far unsubstantiated) theories about how the methane in bovine waste is contributing to the greenhouse effect. Anybody who cares to look can find other examples. The bottom line is, Jordi has to care more for the nature of a species environmental impact than the magnitude thereof in order for his actions and motives to make any sense. In the case of Humans, he probably takes intent into consideration as well. > (Lots of Archangels are understandably harsh about > insolence, > but Jordi is the only one who will _kill_ over it. > That's > classical supervillian behaviour, honestly.) Not really, when you consider Jordi as a member of a species that is both social and heirarchical. Consider the example of social animals; they are often powerful creatures with respectable natural weaponry. Even the less impressive ones -- like Humans -- are more than adequate to the task of killing each other. Under such conditions, a set of dominance/submission rituals serve to minimize violence (or at least fatalities). An individual who failed to submit could be dealt with by a stronger animal, but only at the risk of injury that might weaken the species by removing that stronger animal from the gene pool. Anyone individual that refuses to submit when it's proper to do so is thus a threat to the species as a whole. Now apply that reasoning to Jordi, and how much sense does his manner of dealing with insolent Servitors make? > There's also talk about how Jordi dislikes Servitors > appearing > before him in human vessels, and I read an implication > that he > seems bigoted against humanity. Bigotry is never a > heroic trait Yeah, right. Explain all those folkloric heroes who gleefully slaughtered people of other nationalities or religions over matters like land rights or access to women. One other thing and then I'm through; Jordi as a creature of instinct. I don't buy it. Remember that he's an AA, a being with a truly unquantifiable number of Forces -- and that includes _Ethereal_ Forces. Jordi is very much a thinking being. The problem is that his thinking is literally inhuman. That's true of all Celestials to some degree, but it's likely truer of Jordi than any other. Jordi is driven more by reason, belief and -- yes, I'll say it -- faith than he is by instinct. But any attempt to describe his thinking in Human terms is doomed to lose a lot in the translation. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:36:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant) At 8:39 PM -0700 2/18/02, Timothy Groth wrote: >[...] Regardless animals as a >whole have no impact on the War, they hey don't create Tethers for >instance. An interesting statement -- and untrue. Jordi has Tethers where Man has never been (or at least never developed, and probably didn't get to stay long if he ever stumbled across it...). So does Novalis, I would suspect. The first Tether to Light happened even before humans existed, likewise the Sun and Fire. Humans are not the _only_ Tether-catalysts. They're just a very common one -- now. (References: the Liber Castellorum _and_ the main book, Tethers box. I believe Jordi's Amazon-placed Tether is listed there as well as the Liber Castellorum.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:24:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Jordi (rant) At 12:18 AM -0700 2/19/02, Julian Mensch wrote: [...] ><< >> 2. Modern, canon In Nomine is about moral absolutes. > >No, it's not. >>> > > My apologies -- I've been reading through list archives >and I thought it was made fairly clear that this was A) >canon, and B) a stance you agreed with strongly. Realize, >when I say "moral absolutes," I don't mean that in either >a superficial or insulting sense. I'd need to know what you meant by moral absolutes, but I strongly doubt that IN is that, save perhaps at the very rock bottom of: "selflessness vs selfishness." It's not Good and Evil, though it's very easy to cast it in those terms and use that mode in one's game. But there are a lot of different ways to play it; consider Impudites, who cannot _allow_ humans to die if they can help it, versus Mercurians, who merely cannot harm humans themselves -- but can ask a Malakite to administer a thrashing if it seems necessary. Consider the Princes -- Kobal can only condone _Funny_ human deaths; Andrealphus is _not_ terribly keen on snuff films unless they involve non-humans (Impudite + Kill-Sex-Lust = headache); Alaemon would rather blackmail than kill, Nybbas wants the films, but if he were present -- _could_ he, as an Impudite, not try to have humans saved? (Heros are good copy too!) You can darken that, and say that as Princes, they are freer from their Band dissonance conditions. Or you can lighten it, and say of _course_ their Band nature over-rides the urges of their dark Words. Or you can, as GM, roll some dice to symbolize the struggle. That's just one aspect of what can be played with. So if there's "moral absolutes" in canon IN, they're very nuanced, and very nuancable. Jordi has already started getting some nuances, in my mind; it starts with the "God is his Alpha" mindset. I'm not sure where it will carry on, but it will probably be a challenge to make Servitors of Animals _possible_ PCs who can work with other PCs, while keeping Jordi a very _alien_ Archangel. But it's a challenge that I'm going to stick with whoever winds up doing Jordi eventually. > OH. This was a serious mistake on my part, then. I >thought canonical IN was meant to be high contrast. How >exactly would you rate it? (Do we _have_ canonical contrast? Gads, I hardly think that we _can_ -- what one person says is "medium-high" another will say is "dead gray"... I _think_ it's medium to medium-high contrast most of the time: Archangels are generally "good" and Princes are generally "evil," and the bell-curve on Servitor celestials groups most of the angels on the bright side of things, and most of the demons on the dark side... Which is how it worked out pretty much in the Liber Servitorum; but then, my definition of "contrasty" may be another's definition of "the angel and the demon are looking over their shoulders at each other, each one having 'crossed the line'...) > "They gain dissonance if they value human life above >animal life." Which does not mean they have to value human life _below_ animal life. Humans are, for a Servitor of Animals, another animal which happens to be very cunning and numerous. If a bear attacked a human, a Servitor of Animals might try to scare the bear off or dissuade it (knowing that more humans will come and hunt down a man-eater). On the other hand, a different Jordian (or the same one in different circumstances) might well let the bear get a meal, and then try to dispose of the evidence so the bear won't get in trouble. An angel of Jordi who saves kittens from drowning would probably save a human child from drowning, also. If you have one of each drowing at the same time... Try to save both? The closest one? The animal even if it's further away? Such are the conundrums that are inflicted on PCs. > "...anyone who willfully violates Jordi's rules, _or fails >to give the Archangel proper respect_, will be cast out and >possibly devoured." > > (Lots of Archangels are understandably harsh about insolence, >but Jordi is the only one who will _kill_ over it. That's >classical supervillian behaviour, honestly.) _Possibly_ devoured. Isn't this how it works in wolf-packs? There is one Alpha; if you challenge the alpha, you can get in trouble. Works with cats, too, in more subtle and complex ways. There is only one queen bee, one queen ant. One alpha-male chimp or gorilla. If you challenge the alpha, you get what you deserve -- a chance to see if you can take the alpha-ranking. If you don't realize when you're beaten and show throat, well... And Jordi is _all_ animals, at once, _and_ an angel. If a challenger seems to be challenging out of selfish reasons, then I'm sure that Jordi could handle it with the concept of "Angel-predator, selfishthing- prey. Chomp." It's quick, easy, and alien to human mindsets. > There's also talk about how Jordi dislikes Servitors appearing >before him in human vessels, and I read an implication that he >seems bigoted against humanity. Bigotry is never a heroic >trait, especially in the extremely general and zealous extent >Jordi takes it. Jordi's entitled to a bit of snarkiness -- he's a Kyriotate, which is second only to Mercurians in "far from the Divine." If Michael can hold a grudge against Dominic (as he obviously does), and he's a _Seraph_, then why can't Jordi have several quirks? Humans are an animal which is, in his opinion, out of control. He doesn't like being reminded of them. Would you appear to Gabriel while beating a small child cruelly? To Novalis, with a demonic prisoner's face ground into the dirt and in a nasty arm-lock? Jordi likes animals; it makes him happy to see that his Servitors are not being seduced by the easy comforts of the human world, at the expense of knowing what animals are going through. > I'm not against there being animals in Heaven >per se. I _am_ against Destiny and Fate for >anything non-sapient -- I'm willing to acknowledge >that it's possible for a dolphin to reach it's Fate >or a smart dog to do something vaguely resembling >Destiny, but H&H is specific about _all_ species >being in the Savannah. How does a scorpion find >its destiny? A cow? A bit of throwaway canon from H&H which has, indeed, carried over and will probably require a section in Jordi's writeup to explain properly. >have_, he's broken. I suspect the Superiors writeup would >have fixed a lot of that, if the line hadn't been >cancelled, The line isn't cancelled. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:19:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Jordi (rant) At 9:40 AM -0600 2/19/02, David Edelstein wrote: >Yes, the constant reference to Native Americans as Friends of the Earth >and All Things Fuzzy annoys me too, and it's something I've been trying >to take out of the EPG. It's being worked on! I do, however, have a suspicion that the only way to lay it entirely to rest would require a large chunk of book; it is a complex matter that lends itself to a superficial glossing-over due to surface similarities... O:/ > And the "Native Americans are the only people >Jordi really liked" is something I'd certainly try to change in an >expanded Jordi writeup. I would suspect that the easiest way to "fix" that is to note that they were... hm... Well, from what little _I_ know, their culture seemed somewhat technologically stagnant, and so their ability to affect the rest of the ecosystem was curtailed. (I could well be wrong on this, since I haven't done a bunch of research. Researched data is, of course, useful......) >> Actually, there's considerable evidence that several species of animals >> are pretty close to being sapient by any reasonable definition (and I'm >> >> >> >> Sapient, I might believe. > >"Sapient" is what most people mean when they say "sentient." A hamster >is sentient. A human is sapient. A dolphin is sentient and may or may >not be sapient. Random Expansion on The Above: Sapient comes from, IIRC, the latin for "wisdom." It is the more proper term for "self-aware," or "intelligent" as applied to humans. (Homo Sapiens -- wise man.) Sentient is more popularly used to mean sapient, but IIRC the dictionary definition, mearly means "capable of sensing emotions/sensations." Mixing them up is, indeed, something I've done a time or two in the past. I am trying harder to avoid it... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:02:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jordi People have been throwing around various versions of Jordi's dissonance conditions, on this thread. If my memory serves me, his dissonance condition is nothing about clean kills or the relative values of human and animal life, but rather it is dissonant for Jordi's angels to take any notice of the conventions of civilization. Now, I will grant that Jordi is not evil or a Demon Prince waiting to happen, but I *do* say that, as a piece of gaming material, he's pretty broken. His dissonance conditions (if I recalled them correctly) and the fact that he doesn't pass out human vessels makes it VERY hard to work his angels into the rest of the setting. I would STRONGLY recommend that, in any extended write-up of Jordi, his anti-civilization aspect be muted and a couple of new ones introduced and played up. Logical candidates are: - Humane treatment of animals (of course, and already present) - Animals as spiritual aids to humans (pets that comfort the lonely or teach humans the value of love and faith, or, less sentimentally, animals as symbols and totems) - Health and athletics -- at least as natural an extention of the Word of Animals as peace is for the Word of Flowers. Jordi invented vessels; what more natural than that his angels should know most and care most about what's good for animal bodies, including human? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:29:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Jordi At 3:02 PM -0500 2/19/02, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >People have been throwing around various versions of Jordi's >dissonance conditions, on this thread. [...] True. Blue Book (core rules, 2nd printing), p. 124: @C-HEAD:Dissonance Jordi's angels cannot allow themselves to be swayed by the concerns of human society, its rules, or its expectations of behavior. They gain dissonance if they value human life over animal life. When they kill, it must be cleanly and without pain, as is the custom of Jordi. GURPS In Nomine, p. 96 @C-HEAD: Dissonance -20 points Jordi's angels have a -15 point Code of Honor (p. B31) as their Dissonance Condition [-5]. They cannot allow themselves to be swayed by the concerns of human society, its rules, or its expectations of behavior. Nor can they value human life above animal life. When they kill, it must be cleanly and without torture, as is their Archangel's custom. - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:43:56 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Jordi (rant) - --- Julian Mensch wrote: > Jordi is broken, badly. Yes, but not beyond fixing (either by an expanded write-up or by a GM willing to do a bit of work). > 1. Jordi is an entirely modern architype. There were no > hippies 20,000 years ago, but maternal healing figures > are ageless. Ecoterrorists, on the other hand, are new > in both image and *concept*. This assumes that Jordi's agenda is eco-terrorism. Canon doesn't support that (but I concede that canon doesn't specifically refute that, either). Jordi's agenda is to return Humans to their rightful place in the natural order. If he has to cull the herd a bit to accomplish that, so be it. > 3. Whenever Jordi comes into the books, he seems to drag > with him a whole steaming pile of new age dung that > flows > out to pollute the rest of the game I agree somewhat with this, but not completely. Yes, there are a lot of New Age associations with Jordi as written. But some research into the cultures that originated the ideas that were westernized into the New Age movement can help fix that. Mike's Principle: Never take a gaming supplement as gospel when it comes to how a particular culture operates, especially when that culture is very different from your own and/or that of the writers. > 4. Jordi's relations make no sense. How is it that > Novalis > manages to condemn Michael for fighting to defend the > innocent and drive back evil when necessary, yet can > cozy > up to Jordi, who wants to exterminate humanity, as an > ally? The answer is that Jordi doesn't want to exterminate humanity -- he just wants to thin the ranks a bit. Keep in mind that many _Humans_ think that's a good idea, too. And Novalis, who knows quite well the effects of population density on aggression, probably has no trouble seeing Jordi's point of view on this issue. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:28:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Jordi Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > @C-HEAD:Dissonance > Jordi's angels cannot allow themselves to be swayed by the concerns > of human society, its rules, or its expectations of behavior. > They gain dissonance if they value human life over animal life. > When they kill, it must be cleanly and without pain, as is the > custom of Jordi. Ah. So it was All Of The Above. Thank you. It still makes it impossible for a Jordian to take a human-vessel role other than Tarzan, Mowgli, or Sheena, or even to take an animal-vessel role that's domesticated. We're talking angels that aren't house-broken here... Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2550 ********************************