in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 20 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2551 In this digest: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) IN> Consider Animals-Technical Explanation IN> Animal Roles Re: IN> The Lord of the Undead Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> Consider Animals-Technical Explanation RE: IN> Jordi (rant) Re: IN> Jordi Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Re: IN> Animal Roles Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> if only ... (shedim) Re: IN> Jordi IN> Book Info Request Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> Book Info Request Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) IN> A question on Celestial Combat... Re: IN> Jordi revisited Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> Book Info Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:40:17 -0700 From: Timothy Groth Subject: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) >At 8:39 PM -0700 2/18/02, Timothy Groth wrote: >>[...] Regardless animals as a >>whole have no impact on the War, they hey don't create Tethers for > >instance. > >An interesting statement -- and untrue. Jordi has Tethers where Man has >never been (or at least never developed, and probably didn't get >to stay long if he ever stumbled across it...). So does Novalis, I >would suspect. This is has sort of bothered me for a while, outside of the context of the current Jordi argument. It is heavily implied in several places that humanity has a large impact on Words. The strength of a Word and Tethers to it have to do with human actions and perceptions. Yet there seem to have been Words before humanity. This would mean they have something to do with sheer representation in reality. IIRC in the GMG the section on Words leans heavily towards the humans controlling Words. That is if people stop paying attention to the Word it dwindles into nothingness. It wouldn't matter if a ton of Buggy Whips was stock piled somewhere, without the human perception the representation in the Symphony vanishes and the demon who had that Word would go with it. Yet there are the examples that you give below of Tethers pre-humanity, as well as words pre-humanity leads to the idea that just having it in the Symphony independent of humanity helps. Personally I chalk it up to shifts in the game design and a little bit of internal inconstancy but maybe its one of those things that is purposefully ambiguous and confusingly so that allow things like the ethereal heresy to be possible. After all if God managed to figure out some way of eeking power from the Symphony without humanity then that would let Him dominate the other ethereals. >The first Tether to Light happened even before humans existed, likewise >the Sun and Fire. > >Humans are not the _only_ Tether-catalysts. They're just a very common >one -- now. > >(References: the Liber Castellorum _and_ the main book, Tethers box. >I believe Jordi's Amazon-placed Tether is listed there as well as the >Liber Castellorum.) Are there any examples in canon of a "modern" (post appearance of humanity) Tether formed with no human involvement. The Jordi ones in the deepest untouched regions could be linked to humanity in that they wonder about such places and thus that musing latches onto the place that represents it and connects it to Heaven. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:57:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Timothy Groth wrote: > This is has sort of bothered me for a while, outside of the context > of the current Jordi argument. It is heavily implied in several > places that humanity has a large impact on Words. Right. I don't see this as an internal inconsistency. It just means that mental reality, as well as physical, is very important in IN. Which you'd expect in a game where the default PC is a spirit. (And, to bring Jordi back into it, there may be Animal Tethers created by the thoughts and feelings of animals around a place.) > Are there any examples in canon of a "modern" (post appearance of > humanity) Tether formed with no human involvement. I don't know if it's canon, but a recent volcanic eruption could be a Tether to Fire for one side or the other. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:34:20 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Consider Animals-Technical Explanation Something I don't want to see is Jordi becomming House-broken. The dissenters in this Jordi discussion are pretty much all describing changes to Jordi which make him HUMAN-CENTRIC which let's be perfectly honest completely ruins him. Again I stress one of the main aspects of Jordi is that he honestly sees very little special about humanity. Enough that he's willing to tolerate the human race as he works to protect animals but he's not overly concerned whether they live or die. This may seem to you evil but Jordi is a Archangel which has grave concerns about his own word in the universe being eradicated just like Novalis is. He's probably friends with Eli because Eli being creation has a side to him that is primal and appreciative that he doesn't want animals fading from the Earth either. Let's face it that Jordi also is a very important angel for players who want to be able to end up being "not so nice" angels and also as an example of how screwed up Heaven can be. Yes In Nomine is Medium Contrasted with Asmodeus, Baal, Saminga, and even Lilith confirmably evil individuals and the reverse can be said of Heaven but it's not that far to making them perfect which would REALLY hurt the setting and remove what little humor is left in the setting. Here are some goals of Jordi I think that should be included in his expanded write up. 1. The Eradication of the majority of Human Culture: Jordi is well informed about human politics, human religion, human science and all the little pet projects of his fellow Archangels. Upfront he's viewed as insane because he believes these things ultimately are A:) Useless B:) Unnecessary distractions C:) Dangerous. You may like your shots, your television, your microwave ovens, and your churchs but really answer me this question-what exact GOOD do they do you in the Heavengly scheme of things? Human beings get to live 1,000 years and fly to the Moon...whoop de do. That 1,000 years on Earth is just more time to achieve your Fate. It may not be popular for human beings to live like Neanderthals but the signifcantly less populated humanity will be easier for Heaven to monitor, demons will have a great number of their tools for temptation to take away, and dogma will be simple and direct. Furthermore extinction for humanity is actually a great danger in their present congested and contact filled society. 2. The restoration of Animal Existence to equal footing with humanity: Human beings are special, Jordi can accept this but they are far too powerful and risk utterly destroying the eco-system without having a full understanding of how to deal with repairing it. Jordi considers that since angels took 5,000,000,000 years and more to develop this matter and humanity has taken only 50,000 years to reach this point the risk for screw ups is far too high. To that end Jordi is going to promote the lives of as many of his animals as possible in order to 'take back' as many sections of the Earth as possible from humans and grow in abundance and strength to drive the human race back. He has to be careful to keep existing species fertile, expansive, and strong because creating new ones merely risks making the problem worse by human backlash or worse messing with 5,000,000,000 years of work. 3. The instilling of sapience in Animals: This is a personal project of Jordi's that he's been working on through natural selection and breeding as opposed to resorting to Jean's genetics methodry (which he considers if not unnatural a very poor place to start). Basically Jordi believes that humanity is a huge rubber band socio-biologically speaking with it constantly being stretched between demons and angels before snapping back together. Eventually Jordi is sure they are going to end up breaking. To that end he is creating an "alternate saint source" for Heaven in hopes when the War finally does end up destroying humanity (perhaps in Armageddon or perhaps in some other catastrophe) then there will already be a new race to replace them and one much better aware of the universe. Current candidates are Apes, Dolphins, and Whales to which Jordi is aiding the process also by occasionally instilling sentience into animals and breeding them into the bloodline. He admit that's cheating but the extinction of humanity is possibly going to occur far faster than he thinks, BTW he's not certain it will but he's being safe. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:36:13 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Animal Roles Also I take offense that Celestial campaigns need restrict themselves from Animal vessels and I heartily encourage EVERYONE to take at least one Animal vessel in their playing. Some sample roles for a campaign... * Household Pet Sample mission: Jordi or another Archangel has assigned you a very innocous role which is to serve as the guardian of a family with a very specific destiny. You are to look after the youngest child of the family and depending on the circumstances may actually regularly communicate with the boy when his parents arn't around and instuct him in his destiny without hell being overly suspicious. Inspiration: Lassie for Animal role of Jordi, Mr. Peabody for animal role of Jean * Familiar Sample mission: You have been assigned to a powerful human sorcerer or a much older and more/less experienced angel in order to serve as their personal spy, advisor, and troubleshooter. Though you play the part of a normal "pet" for the most part in public you are very much a partner in this relationship if not the boss himself. Inspiration: The Owl from the Sword and the Stone serving Destiny, Garfield the servitor of Haagenti * Stray Sample Mission: You are a neighborhood guardian whose vessel is the most innocent and difficult to trace you'll likely ever find. As a stray cat, dog, or even pigeon you are there to spy on important personages in your city and on occasion take the fight to Hell. With the strength of ten men few will ever suspect a small cat of the mauling deaths for rapists, pimps, drug dealers, and muggers. * Battle Form While this is not truly an animal vessel it is something that many angels are gifted with a reward. Elephants, Tigers, Lions, Bears, and other terrible animals are the forms that Angels or Demons assume when they go "on the prowl" even as they turn back into humans when they don't need it anymore. This is the inspiration for many tails of werewolves and other shapechangers. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:38:15 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: Re: IN> The Lord of the Undead In this case I just assumed that the ritual the demon worked upon him failed to transform him into a "true" mummy and thematically it worked much better than saying he's a Mummy. The fact he's actually a "lesser" form of undead also allows the Mummies in his service to look down upon him in a way which helps in his plots I suppose if occasionally frustrating. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:24:44 -0500 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:00:22 -0800 (PST) Maurice Lane writes: > > --- Jonathan Walton > wrote: > > > Any thoughts on why, in canon, Jordi decided not to > > side with the > > Lightbringer? The Rebellion seems to have Jordi's > > name written all over it. > > To paraphrase Eric Burns, because God is Jordi's > alpha? Beat me to it. But yeah, I see that as the difference as well. Jordi may think humans aren't anything special and need to be winnowed to preserve the rest of the ecosystem of Earth... but God apparently thinks otherwise, and that's good enough for Jordi. That's why he's an Archangel and Lucifer isn't, and why he didn't rebel. Mere differences of opinion can't sway Jordi's loyalties. He's probably the least likely angel to Fall, for just that reason. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:42:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Consider Animals-Technical Explanation All these ideas make Jordi interesting and consistent, but they also make it very difficult to play his angels while working with any other angels, and an All-Jordian campaign would be a very narrow and specialized sub-sub-genre. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:21:37 -0800 From: Daiv Subject: RE: IN> Jordi (rant) > >Jordi likes animals; it makes him happy to see that his Servitors are >not being seduced by the easy comforts of the human world, at the expense >of knowing what animals are going through. > >> I'm not against there being animals in Heaven >>per se. I _am_ against Destiny and Fate for >>anything non-sapient -- I'm willing to acknowledge >>that it's possible for a dolphin to reach it's Fate >>or a smart dog to do something vaguely resembling >>Destiny, but H&H is specific about _all_ species >>being in the Savannah. How does a scorpion find > >its destiny? A cow? The explanation i thought was given was that, in a nutshell, animals have no Fates. Particularly those who do not have the capacity for choice; If they function strictly on instinct, they never really have anything to achieve but destiny. Or, possibly, there is something to the idea of reincarnation, across species. Except for cats. They only come back as Cats. again. Nine lives, ten if they give up their tails (old Irish folk tale that I made up; Manx cats are the ones who were unable to accomplish their jobs in nine lives. They usually got killed too soon, on their 9th go round. So, they make a deal. One more time, but they have to pay a price; their tails.) As an aside, in The Last Hero, Terry Pratchett points out the the bible is very specific about the size of heaven, and then goes on to explain that this is very very big, and even assuming Everybody who ever lives gets in, there is a lot of room. Which suggests that, happily, pets are allowed in. (read the book, he is a lot better at explaining this than i am). - -Daiv - -- hammer and anvil fire sweat iron and breath forging destiny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:46:25 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Jordi - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I would STRONGLY recommend that, in any extended write-up > of > Jordi, his anti-civilization aspect be muted and a couple > of new ones introduced and played up. Hear, hear! > - Animals as spiritual aids to humans (pets that comfort > the > lonely or teach humans the value of love and faith, > or, less sentimentally, animals as symbols and totems) Amen to that. My oh-so-short-lived campaign featured a Kyrio of Animals whose main interaction with Human society was as a totemic spirit guide. I'd love to see that sort of thing incorporated into canon. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:50:20 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I don't know if it's canon, but a recent volcanic > eruption could > be a Tether to Fire for one side or the other. Considering that it wiped out both a small city and a USAF base, I'd call the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo back in the '90's the formation of a Tether to Belial. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:56:47 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Animal Roles - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > * Stray > > Sample Mission: You are a neighborhood guardian whose > vessel is the most > innocent and difficult to trace you'll likely ever find. This was the MO that the Kyrio of Animals in my campaign used most frequently. He was the group's information gatherer and lookout -- few people suspect a squirrel of following them, and fewer still worry that a grasshopper is listening in on their conversations. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:22:23 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited >to. No way could Jordi support that and stay in his right >minds. And yes, I meant that plural; he's a Kyrio, after all. Jordi the Kyrio - as a Kyriotate he is familiar with many many points of view, including those that oppose each other, such as those of predator and prey. I'm sure he's been both, in one incarnation or another. I'm also pretty sure that he's experienced the animal end of the human-animal equation more often than not. This probably also goes for his servitors. They've been the spotted owl, the rats beneath your house, the cockroaches you kill, the pets you've love, the cows that are led to the slaughter, the big game hunted for sport, the man-eating tigers, the rabbits (preferred by servitors of Eli on loan I'd imagine) we pen and feed, the deer hunted, and even the humans that love or are indifferent to the suffering/happiness of animals. They talk with Animals, live alongside Animals, and understand the difficult lives of wild animals and the pampered, boring and confusing lives of pets. But most of all, Jordi and his Angels *identify* with animals. Thus, they have no real good reason to side with humans at all ... seeing as how humans are only one species on this green planet. I understand Jordi feeling anger at the arrogance of a single species placing itself above the rest, acting as though the others had no feelings, no worth. Perhaps the an Indian tribe did once run thousands of buffalo off a cliff, but they never NEVER nearly drove the buffalo to nearly extinction as the Europeans did (as they near did to the wolf as well). I believe that Jordi would have no beef with humanity (so to speak) if humanity weren't "different." But Jordi is no fool. He can see that humans are capable of living in relative harmony with the other animals, but have chosen not to. He sees that humanity is willing to allow the planet to be destroyed out of sloth, to actively destroy habitat for profit, and to abuse its power over other essentially every other species on earth. Jordi identifies with all species. And he and his angels are probably getting tired of it. (R.Z.O.!!! Liber Angelis, pp 82-84 (IN21)) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ T鬩chargez MSN Explorer gratuitement ࠬ'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:58:31 -0000 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited - -----Original Message----- From: Perry Lloyd To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 20 February 2002 00:25 Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited >And he and his angels are probably getting tired of it. > >(R.Z.O.!!! Liber Angelis, pp 82-84 (IN21)) Now there's a plotline I've toyed with running, from time to time... Genevieve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:47:41 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Jordi - --- jamoge@wm.edu wrote: > Intelligently phrased and vaguely hilarious. > > > > This discussion of Jordi's write-up reminds me > > of a Rorschach inkblot: > > > > Person 1: "I see an evil monster." > > Person 2: "I see a silly eco-terrorist." > > Person 3: "I don't see enough ink to be a > > complete write-up." > > Person 4: "Look! a bunny!" > > Anyone want to match the above four up to members of > > the list? (4's gotta be Moe...) Too easy. My personal vision of Jordi is much, much stranger*... :) Moe *OTOH, there is something about bunnies that is causing a neuron or two to flash. What was it? Ah, yes. Oh, dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... ;) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 01/01/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:03:54 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> if only ... (shedim) >Perry Lloyd wrote: > > > > ... shedim really existed. > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/02/18/yates.trial/index.html > > > > Then this sort of thing might make sense. > > >You don't need demons to explain mental illness. > >-David Explanations do not always allow things to make sense, unfortunately. Still, the above link (and historical event as of it having taken place IRL) might serve as a plot seed. Plainly stated : an angel (or two) are sent to investigate the true cause of this unfortunate act. Perhaps two angels of judgement and destiny, with a third angel of flowers to actually talk to the family. If any of the children *did* manage to achieve their Destiny and arrive in Heaven, they might be interviewed as well. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:34:27 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Jordi on 2/19/02 7:47 PM, Maurice Lane at moelane_1999@yahoo.com wrote: > > *OTOH, there is something about bunnies that is > causing a neuron or two to flash. What was it? > > Ah, yes. > > Oh, dear. > > Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... This wouldn't be Anya, the redeemed Elohite of Revelations (formerly Haballite of Factions), would it? Cause I've got her on tap... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:40:23 -0500 From: "S.D." Subject: IN> Book Info Request So I have extra money to burn, and I want to burn it In Nomine-style. (Put the flamethrower *down*, Belial. Thank you.) I know I'm going after at least one of the Superiors books (either 1 or 4, since I have 2 and I want to wait on 3), plus probably the IPG and In Nomine Anime. But I'll have money left over, and I'm not sure what to get. So, two questions. 1: Does Liber Servitorum have 'potentially-PC NPCs', or higher-ranking ones, or both? That is, am I likely to find Rex, Soldekai, etc., or would I find mostly low-Force/minor Word-bound angels and demons that could be PC templates? Also, does it have Soldiers/Saints/Hellsworn/Undead, generic humans, or both? 2: ...any other recommendations? ^^;; I have the core book, Sups 2, and Rev 5 at the moment. And after In Anime, the IPG, and Sups 1 or 4, I should be able to afford at least two more books... ~S.D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:43:49 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited >Perhaps an Indian tribe >did once run thousands of buffalo off a cliff, but they never NEVER nearly >drove the buffalo to nearly extinction as the Europeans did (as they near >did to the wolf as well). Buffalo? No. At least, they hadn't by the time they got horses. This method of herding animals off a cliff wasn't actually done with buffalo (to my knowledge, there are no cliffs in the Great Plains, for one thing). It was done with woolly mammoths -- whose extinction *was* directly due to hunting by Native Americans. To quote http://www.bagheera.com/inthewild/ext_woollym.htm : "There is clear archaeological evidence for human hunting to be the only cause of the disappearance of mammoths and mastodons, both elephant-like creatures." It's part of what's called the "Pleistocene overkill hypothesis," and there's doubtless more information elsewhere. Just a couple of facts relevant to the discussion; little if any IN content here. Let's see... oh yeah, I'll present this as a fact relating to the addition of my voice to those suggesting that the idealization of Native Americans, and similar such modern notions, be greatly downplayed in Jordi's eventual long writeup. >-Perry William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:52:25 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Book Info Request >1: Does Liber Servitorum have 'potentially-PC NPCs', or higher-ranking >ones, or both? That is, am I likely to find Rex, Soldekai, etc., or would I >find mostly low-Force/minor Word-bound angels and demons that could be PC >templates? The angels and demons are a little on the low end, if I remember correctly, and no word-bounds. >Also, does it have Soldiers/Saints/Hellsworn/Undead, generic >humans, or both? It has a few of them, not too many, though. It's got quite a few neat ethereals though. > >2: ...any other recommendations? ^^;; I have the core book, Sups 2, and Rev >5 at the moment. And after In Anime, the IPG, and Sups 1 or 4, I should be >able to afford at least two more books... > > ~S.D. Well, I personally find the Corporeal Player's Guide to be the best In Nomine supplement ever done. It's got a huge amount of really, really cool stuff in there: sorcerers and prophets and gorgons, oh my! However, if humans don't feature too much in your campaign, perhaps it wouldn't be too useful. I also fine the Game Master's Guide to be a very interesting and fun book, with a lot of good ideas in it. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:56:56 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited >I'll present this as a fact relating to the >addition of my voice to those suggesting that the idealization of Native >Americans, and similar such modern notions, be greatly downplayed in >Jordi's eventual long writeup. And what makes the Native Americans so special anyway? How about the Black Africans, the Siberians, the Australians, or other such tribal cultures? They were just as close to nature as the Native Americans. Yeah, that comment in the Marches has always bugged me for a variety of reasons. I'm glad I'm not alone on it. - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:33:14 -0400 From: pbarkow@is2.dal.ca Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited On 13 Feb 02, at 21:43, William J. Keith wrote: > >Perhaps an Indian tribe > >did once run thousands of buffalo off a cliff, but they never NEVER nearly > >drove the buffalo to nearly extinction as the Europeans did (as they near > >did to the wolf as well). > > Buffalo? No. At least, they hadn't by the time they got horses. This > method of herding animals off a cliff wasn't actually done with buffalo (to > my knowledge, there are no cliffs in the Great Plains, for one thing). It Head Smashed in Buffalo Jump, Alberta. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:03:23 -0500 From: Eric Eves Subject: Re: IN> Jordi > *OTOH, there is something about bunnies that is > causing a neuron or two to flash. What was it? > > Ah, yes. > > Oh, dear. > > Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... > > ;) Please, for the love of all that's holy, tell me that switchblades aren't involved in any way. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:25:49 -0500 From: "Michael Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) > Timothy Groth wrote: > > Are there any examples in canon of a "modern" (post appearance of > > humanity) Tether formed with no human involvement. ...and then Earl wrote: > I don't know if it's canon, but a recent volcanic eruption could > be a Tether to Fire for one side or the other. Liber Castellorum, p. 78 - theVatnajokull Volcano, Iceland, is listed as a major Tether to Gabriel that formed on Sept. 30th, 1996. The Liber Castellorum also lists Tethers to Wind, Stone, Animals, and Flowers that have no human involvement. Diabolical Tethers seem to be more dependent on human action, but that might be explained by the comparatively recent Fall. - -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:48:34 -0600 From: "Wade Lahoda" Subject: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... I'm sorry if this question has already been asked - I'm sure it likely has been - but I couldn't find any answers in the FAQ or elsewhere. It is repeatedly stated that a being in a Corporeal Vessel is immune to Celestial attacks... But what is conspiciously not said is whether or not a being in a Vessel is prohibited from making Celestial attacks. Perhaps I am misreading things, but it looks to me like a Celestial in a Vessel is allowed to make Celestial attacks on a Celestial floating around without a Vessel. Am I interperting this right? It makes being without a Vessel even more dangerous - not only are you vulnerable to Celestial attacks, but you are Vulnerable to Celestial attacks from people whom you can't retaliate. I'm not sure if this is such a bad thing, but... On a similar topic, would you allow Celestial Grappling by someone who is in a Vessel? Certainly, you still have to percieve them in order to attack them, and percieving a Celestial form is a lot easier when you are also in Celestial form, but a lot of the time Celestials will be able to spot someone in Celestial form while they are in a Vessel, and proceed with the smackdown. On a related topic - and also one that I'm sure has been discussed before, but since I'm sounding silly already - does anyone find that Soul-killing happens at all in their games? It seems to me that only a Heartless Celestial ever really stands a chance of getting Soul-Killed - anyone else should easily be able to make the Will roll to return to their Heart before they loose too many Forces. Aside from psychological manipulation, are there any good ways to a) get a Celestial out of their Vessel without killing the Vessel(which just sends 'em back to their heart, albiet in Trauma) and b) get them to stick around long enough for you to do serious damage? I realize that fatalaties in Celestial Combat are supposed to be rare due to the "Run away, Run away!" factor, but it seems to me a lot of the supplements mention Soul-killed or Remnantized Celestials... a lot more than makes sense when it's so easy to escape. Unless, of course, there's just a lot of stubbron Celestials out there. Hah, like that'd ever happen. ;) Thanks for entertaining my foolishness. =) A. Wade Lahoda ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:51:43 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited > >And he and his angels are probably getting tired of it. > > > >(R.Z.O.!!! Liber Angelis, pp 82-84 (IN21)) > >Now there's a plotline I've toyed with running, from time to time... > >Genevieve Yeah, me too. I think it'd be so sweet to have my PCs investigating something completely unrelated (and infernal no less), only to be lead down a separate series of clues that are half-related ... if only *I* had a clue about how to go this in game without railroading the PCs. :( Oh, well, maybe you or I could do a write-up of the R.Z.O. for Pyramid magazine. (Like I have the time at the moment.) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Rejoignez le plus grand service de messagerie au monde avec MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com/fr ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:54:49 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi >Too easy. My personal vision of Jordi is much, much >stranger*... :) > >Moe > >*OTOH, there is something about bunnies that is >causing a neuron or two to flash. What was it? > >Ah, yes. > >Oh, dear. > >Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... > >;) Bun-bun. All Hail Bun-Bun!!! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:27:06 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Book Info Request >I know I'm going after at least one of the Superiors books (either 1 or 4, >since I have 2 and I want to wait on 3), plus probably the IPG and In >Nomine Anime. But I'll have money left over, and I'm not sure what to get. I much prefer S1 myself, if only for the absolutely gorgeous David (AA of Stone) write-up. wow ... OTOH S4 is SUPER for antagonist stuff for an angelic party. >So, two questions. > >1: Does Liber Servitorum have 'potentially-PC NPCs', or higher-ranking >ones, or both? That is, am I likely to find Rex, Soldekai, etc., or would I >find mostly low-Force/minor Word-bound angels and demons that could be PC >templates? The LS was generated with a fan-entry contest for the most part IIRC (which is why you'll find my name on the back cover). Therein : mostly NPCs suitable for a lower powered campaign, such as one with starting characters. Celestials are mostly without rank (and no worded celestials sfaict), though those with rank are usually Vassals or Knights. (Vassals : Dreams, Judgement, Fire, Lightning, the Sword, Flowers; Friends : Trade; Masters : Flowers; Knights : the Game, the War, Dark Humor, Factions, ; Captains : Lust, Death, Secrets). A nice sampling of Outcasts, Renegades, and Remnants (one, one, and two respectively). A *really* nice collection of Ethereal Spirts! I like the humans, includes two sorcerors (one light one dark), several soldiers of either side, a saint, and some nice undead. (Incidently, you'll also find that some of the undead are connected to other characters in the book, making for a ready made NPC group to pit your players against - and a Lilim Captain of Death is a formidable foe). The deeper explanation of Roles was long overdue and appears in this text, as well as on Servants. I'm also a big fan of the section on Destinies and Fates at the end of the book. Also, does it have Soldiers/Saints/Hellsworn/Undead, generic >humans, or both? yup (including two mundane humans) I'd like to mention that I recently had a time crunch and used this book as an NPC source (I needed five demons and I didn't want to use cardboard cutouts). I've never been one to buckle and use pregenerated characters ... until I used this book. I've found it to be an invaluable source, both for plot seeds (as is You Are Here, btw), examples of characters for beginning players to look over (and to play if they want), and really useful as a general play aid (for the roles, servants and destiny/fate stuff). If I were to recommend any single INomine book, it might just have to be this one (*assuming* you already have the Liber Canticorum, because that book should just be grafted to the back of the Core Rules sfaic). > >2: ...any other recommendations? ^^;; I have the core book, Sups 2, and Rev >5 at the moment. And after In Anime, the IPG, and Sups 1 or 4, I should be >able to afford at least two more books... GAH!!! Liber Canticorum is a MUST HAVE!!! My god, it actually opens up powers to the players AND it also serves as a bag of tricks for antagonists, especially if the players aren't willing to sit down and flip through the blessed thing. I LOVE the Liber Canticorum and consider it to be the most important supplement to the In Nomine game (granted, that's because I believe new powers and abilities are the backbone of selling ANY supplement - players LOVES being able to drool over all the powers their players may never acquire). - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager, modifier et imprimer vos photos pr馩r饳. http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2551 ********************************