in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 20 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2553 In this digest: Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Re: IN> About: My Heretical Jordi Re: IN> Quick info request... Re: IN> Jordi Re: IN> Book Info Request IN> What do Jordites DO? Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) RE: IN> Cherub of Fire Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Fwd: mine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> if only ... (shedim) Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... Re: IN> What do Jordites DO? Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Re: IN> What do Jordites DO? Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Re: IN> Consider Animals-Technical Explanation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:17:44 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Fire Caveat: I haven't yet played a game involving any angels of Fire. However, for letting a PC of Fire in the game, I did have this idea: allow the angel to "turn off" their automatic perception of their particular flavor of cruel individuals. I'm not sure how canon this ability is -- a strict reading of the GURPS version doesn't really give clues either way, which may well have been the intent. However, the "No Roll Required" enhancement doesn't explicitly say that the ability goes off whether the holder wants it to or not, so they might be able to simply keep themselves from using it. In exchange, the angel should be prepared for a number of unpleasant consequences, of course. Other angels of Fire, including Gabriel herself, may be able to understand that your Cherub is doing this for a greater good, but there is something vaguely unpleasant about deliberately abandoning what other of his Choir see as their primary mission. He won't be Outcast for it, but he may find himself a pariah among his fellows. Also, he'll lose an ability that is relatively useful for identifying demons at a glance; there are plenty of cruel humans, of course, but demons often tend to take it to extremes. Should he wish to apply it to check, he may find himself promptly "assigned" to an unexpected NPC (which is, of course, entirely under your control). I put the question of the canon allowability of this solution to the professionals on the list; I'm quite curious as to the answer. Also, did Gabriel ever have archaic Servitor Attunements, or was she always about punishing the cruel? Superiors 4 lists them for Vapula, but S3 does not list any for Gabriel. It seems that an Archangel who was so symbolic of inspiration would have had some kind of applicable Attunements. For example, Gabriel's Cherubim might be able to sense (unbetrayed!) bonds of loyalty and devotion, and the reasons for them, which would allow them to persuade others to help protect someone or something to which someone was devoted. Her Elohim might be able to detect those who are emotionally fragile, and with a better resonance what might be affecting this, so as to be able to strengthen them psychologically. Okay, I want to write up this archaic list of Attunements now. :^) William ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:34:43 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> About: My Heretical Jordi From: "Rolland Therrien" > > (20 000 years is a LONG time to hold a > prejudiced view of a species), Not to a being whose lifespan has measured billions of years. To paraphrase a comment I've seen numerous times about Michael, Jordi lived over 99.9% of its life without believing this. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:55:51 -0600 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: Re: IN> Quick info request... Michael Walton wrote: >Subject: Re: IN> Quick info request... > Both of these are badly oversimplified, but I believe >that they'll serve your purpose. Exactly what I needed. Thanks :) Cthulhu _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:07:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Jordi At 3:28 PM -0500 2/19/02, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> @C-HEAD:Dissonance >> Jordi's angels cannot allow themselves to be swayed by the concerns >> of human society, its rules, or its expectations of behavior. >> They gain dissonance if they value human life over animal life. >> When they kill, it must be cleanly and without pain, as is the >> custom of Jordi. > >Ah. So it was All Of The Above. Thank you. > >It still makes it impossible for a Jordian to take a human-vessel >role other than Tarzan, Mowgli, or Sheena, or even to take >an animal-vessel role that's domesticated. We're talking angels >that aren't house-broken here... On the contrary -- what animal will willingly befoul its den or other living quarters? Housebreaking and litter-box training are possible precisely because they're an adaptation of the natural instincts. You just have to make sure that there is easy access to the litterbox. And the tom-Cherubim might tend to spray a bit. And Jordi's angels can allow themselves to be swayed by their fellow angels' concerns, and not make messes in the house, if need be. (Besides, if they don't eat, they don't defecate.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:21:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Book Info Request At 8:40 PM -0500 2/19/02, S.D. wrote: >1: Does Liber Servitorum have 'potentially-PC NPCs', or higher-ranking >ones, or both? That is, am I likely to find Rex, Soldekai, etc., or would I >find mostly low-Force/minor Word-bound angels and demons that could be PC >templates? Also, does it have Soldiers/Saints/Hellsworn/Undead, generic >humans, or both? The Liber Servitorum has potentially-PC characters and higher level ones, but _not_ of the Rex, Soldekai, etc. power level. No Word-Bound or very Old And Complex ones, because the skill-sets they needed ate up all their word-count space and they were deemed to not work out there. (See the Pyramid Designer's Notes on it for more details, and one of the Word- bound who was axed.) It does, however, have some Distincted celestials. It has a chunk of ethereals. It has Soldiers, Saints, Hellsworn, undead, and generic humans (something like 1-2 of each). It has a reliever and a trio of demonlings. It has the PC-level characters marked with a cross (upside down for the nastier ones). It also has a short chapter on Roles, and a longer one on Servants, and a 2-page Appendix for sample Needs, Deeds, fates, and destinies, to get a GM jumpstarted on some potential things to use. >2: ...any other recommendations? ^^;; I have the core book, Sups 2, and Rev >5 at the moment. And after In Anime, the IPG, and Sups 1 or 4, I should be >able to afford at least two more books... GURPS In Nomine and GURPS IOU My other recommendations would basically refer to the "book description" stuff that I did earlier this month (I think) -- I like to match up people with STUFF so that they're happy. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:18:59 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> What do Jordites DO? I disagree that Angels of Jordi would have difficulty dealing with other angels and I would appreciate you guys citing examples of how they would have difficulty doing so. The main difference I see between Jordites and other angels is not what they DO but the reasons why they do it. What I cited as Jordi's "ultimate goals" are no more things that he expects to accomplish today than Laurence with his conversion of everyone to universal Catholicism and the defeat of hell. Common Activities of Jordites are A:) Demon Hunting While Jordi is not quite as militant as David, Michael, Laurence, or the rest of the War faction there is something one needs to note about the various demon princes. They for the most part are highly adapted to human culture and thus ill-equipped for dealin with the natural world. Furthermore the destruction of demons or the redemption of them to a preferrably less civilized methodry deprives civilization further of a driving force behind it. B:) Infernal Tether destruction To Jordi the natural world is for the most part an exceptionally clean, lovely, and beneficial place. Infernal tethers he is (not unfairly) biased to being places of civilization such as crack houses, brothels, halls of power, and the like. Destroying them not only weakens Hell but also weakens the epicenter which promotes the decaying power of urbanization and apathy to animals. C:) Promoting Natural Organizations You may be thinking Greenpeace and the Environmental Protection Agency but many of the softer organizations Jordi supports are those that encourage human beings to suround themselves with nature and also DRAW from that nature a inner reserve of strength and destiny. Jordi has dozens of soldiers and servitors in the Boy Scouts of America (he has no opinion on the homosexuality debate other than he wishes it had never come up), Hunt clubs and other groups which promote human beings killing animals for food (controversial in his ranks but very few hunters hate animals and furthermore often have great concerns about them which is better than the apathy of most who get their food from ranches), the Forrestry service, and yes new-age touchy feeley groups. D:) Attacking humanity's progress while promoting it elsewhere Yes there ARE eco-terrorists in Jordi's camp who spike logs, sugar gas tanks, attack whaling ships, and in general do a lot of things that DOMINIC brings them to trial for. However these are by no means the majority of Jordi's servants and these zealots are rather like Khalid's Islamic fundementalists or Laurence's super christians....they are people the Archangel sympathizes with but himself is not entirely approving of. Jordi himself prefers the creation of National Parks, ASPCA organizations, and the encouraging of natural designs and power than hyper technological. Yes Jordi is a Luddite and likes the Amish but he's also willing to investigate the possibilty of less intrusive progress even as only a stopgate measure. Some of Jordi's angels yes DO hate humanity but they aren't any MORE common than Angels in Laurence's service who hate humanity. The destruction of animal life and debasement irritates them but only so much as angels are exasperated by all the terrible things human does and can suffer to exist just outside their homes. A servitor of Jordi it should be realized has all the sympathy a normal angel has for any being but he understands animals and loves them as much as people. Only the most foolish will attack the resturant owner who smacks a fly out of hand but he will privately mourn the creature and pray for the human's ignorance. If he sees people about to kill cockroaches he will try to stop them but not with deadly force usually (that's counterproductive) but try and get the poor things into a better habitat with a dust pan. The best relationship I can describe between Jordites and Animals is Abortion Activists. An interesting parralell I know but every day the Jordites are aware that humans kill millions of animals and more or less shrug it off when so much potential is lost and they don't even know it (which is insane in their minds). They work actively against it with every fiber of their being and a number of them do take the next logical step (in their minds) of murdering doctors and the like but the majority also realizes this is unfair, doesn't help, and aggravates the cause. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:25:43 -0600 From: "Wade Lahoda" Subject: Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... > >Yep. In fact, the Celestial Song of Light, a fairly well-known Song, is > >probably the most common way for a Celestial in a Vessel to attack someone > >who's just gone Celestial, while remaining immune to Celestial damage > >themself. > > And then there's the Celestial Song of Stone, from the *Liber Canticorum,* > which enables you, or your chosen weapon, to hit something that's in > celestial form while you're still wearing a vessel ... as hard as you can > hit it corporeally. But it's limited to Servitors of Stone. But this does imply that you can't normally, ie: without a song or attunement, hurt someone in Celestial Form while you are in a Vessel. So, there are songs and attunements that will allow you to hurt someone in Celestial Form while you are in a Vessel....but if you're in a Vessel, you can't just lash out with a Will attack to damage them? This would make sense, but I don't believe it is explicitly stated in the main rulebook. It says that Celestial forms can't be damaged by earthy force, but that doesn't neccessarily rule out someone who is in a Vessel lashing out with unearthly force. Now, if there's a song that specifically says it allows you to strike out with Will while in a Vessel, I guess that does imply that you can't normally. =) BTW, thanks to everyone else for the different ideas on how to lay the beats down on people in Celestial Form. =) A. Wade Lahoda ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:50:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) At 1:40 PM -0700 2/19/02, Timothy Groth wrote: >>At 8:39 PM -0700 2/18/02, Timothy Groth wrote: >>>[...] Regardless animals as a >>>whole have no impact on the War, they hey don't create Tethers for >> >instance. >> >>An interesting statement -- and untrue. Jordi has Tethers where Man has >>never been (or at least never developed, and probably didn't get >>to stay long if he ever stumbled across it...). So does Novalis, I >>would suspect. > >This is has sort of bothered me for a while, outside of the context >of the current Jordi argument. It is heavily implied in several >places that humanity has a large impact on Words. They do. The most powerful elemental Words are less impacted -- humans are not likely to forget them, though some Word-shift might occur. [...] >Yet there seem to have been Words before humanity. This would mean >they have something to do with sheer representation in reality. Yah. That too. Words have a big chunk of Ineffable attached to them. Humans, having Free Will and being very sapient, are more able to attract/create events that touch on the more _metaphorical_ meanings of Words, and so Tethers thus formed are likely to be symbolic. This is likely part of the reason that God considers Humans to be special. (Or, depending on your PoV, God made Humans to be special that way...) And then there's one of Gabriel's, which is in Greenland or Iceland or somewhere up there that I'm blanking on, which is just plain a volcanic eruption. Likewise, Hurricanes and Tornados tend to be transient Tethers of the Wind. The elemental Words still have power. Jean is still thunderstorm Lightning as well as Lightning harnessed to do mankind's bidding. Creation has always included things like the formation of planets. Flowers has grown from a subset of plants, to take anything vegetative. Fire is yet fire, and even a destructive wildfire _could_ get both sides of Fire showing up there... The Waters are yet around -- though that Archangel is not. Dreams and Fear were there when animals dreamt, and feared. With animal life, came Animals. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:04:14 -0500 From: "T Howell" Subject: RE: IN> Cherub of Fire Most of the time we found it wasn't a problem, as long as you were willing to accept a few things: 1. You're not "hunting" more than 1 person at a time. 2. It's amazing how many times the person you're hunting ends up having something integral to do with the adventure at hand. Coincidence is a traditional staple of plot advancement - why not use it? That way the Gabrielite can have his/her way with things but not go looking elsewhere to do it. TJ Howell Subject: IN> Cherub of Fire One of my players wants to play a Cherub of Fire. The problem I can see is that a Cherub of Fire must punish everyone s/he meets that has betrayed somebody devoted to them. As s/he recognizes such persons just by looking at them it means that just walking along a busy street s/he will meet a number of people she can -and must- punish. There is the danger that the player will focus on solitary play instead of working with the other angels. Also, as soon as the Cherub has punished somebody s/he must immediatly search for _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:15:41 EST From: BowentheDark@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Fire - --part1_ac.22ea974f.29a56bfd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is my take on the situation, firstly the "Attunement" for Cherub of Fire reads thus: (From my IN Main Book) "It is the role of Gabriel's Cherubim to burn those who, in the last year have horribly betrayed someone devoted to them. Look for them, smiling, outside divorce and custody courts." Although a Cherub walking down the street in a main city (let's assume NY) would see a few of these, *few* (at least in my opinion) would meet the "horribly" clause of the Attunement. Also, a servitor of Gabirel, need only punish one target within a number of days = to Cel. Forces. In fact to quote Gabriel's dissonance "... Gabriel doesn't insist that her angels clean the Earth of every human louse they enounter - but each time they finish with one, they must deal with the very next one they meet." Hope this has cleared some stuff up for ya, ~Dave In a message dated 2/20/2002 4:06:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, t_j_howell@yahoo.com writes: > One of my players wants to play a Cherub of Fire. The problem I can see is > that a Cherub of Fire must punish everyone s/he meets that has betrayed > somebody devoted to them. As s/he recognizes such persons just by looking at > them it means that just walking along a busy street s/he will meet a number > of people she can -and must- punish. There is the danger that the player > will focus on solitary play instead of working with the other angels. Also, > as soon as the Cherub has punished somebody s/he must immediatly search for - --part1_ac.22ea974f.29a56bfd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is my take on the situation, firstly the "Attunement" for Cherub of Fire reads thus: (From my IN Main Book) "It is the role of Gabriel's Cherubim to burn those who, in the last year have horribly betrayed someone devoted to them. Look for them, smiling, outside divorce and custody courts." Although a Cherub walking down the street in a main city (let's assume NY) would see a few of these, *few* (at least in my opinion) would meet the "horribly" clause of the Attunement. Also, a servitor of Gabirel, need only punish one target within a number of days = to Cel. Forces. In fact to quote Gabriel's dissonance "... Gabriel doesn't insist that her angels clean the Earth of every human louse they enounter - but each time they finish with one, they must deal with the very next one they meet." Hope this has cleared some stuff up for ya, ~Dave In a message dated 2/20/2002 4:06:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, t_j_howell@yahoo.com writes: One of my players wants to play a Cherub of Fire. The problem I can see is that a Cherub of Fire must punish everyone s/he meets that has betrayed somebody devoted to them. As s/he recognizes such persons just by looking at them it means that just walking along a busy street s/he will meet a number of people she can -and must- punish. There is the danger that the player will focus on solitary play instead of working with the other angels. Also, as soon as the Cherub has punished somebody s/he must immediatly search for - --part1_ac.22ea974f.29a56bfd_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:11:19 +0100 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > The elemental Words still have power. Jean is still thunderstorm > Lightning as well as Lightning harnessed to do mankind's bidding. > Creation has always included things like the formation of planets. So, if the forming of planets strengthens Creation (which makes sense) than Earth could be one big Tether of Eli. Maybe his biggest. That is why he left Heaven because no matter where he is on earth, he is home....... No, why would Eli tolerate demons in/on his Tether. I guess it must have been a direct command from God. I wonder if demons know they are just guests in Eli's most important Tether :-) Donato ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:07:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... At 11:48 PM -0600 2/19/02, Wade Lahoda wrote: > I'm sorry if this question has already been asked - I'm sure it likely has >been - but I couldn't find any answers in the FAQ or elsewhere. > > It is repeatedly stated that a being in a Corporeal Vessel is immune to >Celestial attacks... But what is conspiciously not said is whether or not a >being in a Vessel is prohibited from making Celestial attacks. Perhaps I am >misreading things, but it looks to me like a Celestial in a Vessel is >allowed to make Celestial attacks on a Celestial floating around without a >Vessel. Eh? p. 53, Celestial Forms on Earth, last sentence. Being in celestial form permits one to make celestial attacks. Not stated outright there is the assumption that if one is _not_ in celestial form, one _cannot_ make celestial attacks. The exceptions -- clearly noted -- are the Celestial Song of Light and the Band Attunement for Calabim of Lust (though they cannot deal out enough Soul hits to strip a Force). > On a related topic - and also one that I'm sure has been discussed before, >but since I'm sounding silly already - does anyone find that Soul-killing >happens at all in their games? Some -- Song of Seals (Liber Canticorum) keeps people from running away. We ganged up on a newbie Vapulan Shedite Seneschal and it didn't last hardly three rounds after we kicked it out of its computer. Mind, even if it'd been winning, the Malakite of War would have been unlikely to run away from it. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:21:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Fire At 1:40 PM +0100 2/20/02, Donato Ranzato wrote: >One of my players wants to play a Cherub of Fire. The problem I can see is >that a Cherub of Fire must punish everyone s/he meets that has betrayed >somebody devoted to them. Remember, this works as: Cherub goes walking down the street. Sees a betrayer. This is Target A. She sees more betrayers, and though they irritate her and she may take mental notes, they are not on the Target list. Target A is the one she MUST punish. So she goes and works something appropriate on Target A. Now she has no target! She will not have a target till she _sees_ one, to become Target B. She can -- and probably will -- go back to catch one of the betrayers she noticed earlier, but if she spots someone _else_ before one of them, she has Target B then, and _that_ is who she must punish. If she ascends to Heaven between the punishing of one Target and the acquiring of another, she's safe from dissonance -- if not her own conscience. (Also note that she gets _one_ note of dissonance, unless she gives up the hunt for Target A. Unlike the Wind, Fire doesn't "pile" dissonance.) (Further note that, as GM, you are the one who determines if a betrayal is strong enough to warrent the attunement's "DING" -- and how often such things happen in your universe.) >There is the danger that the player >will focus on solitary play instead of working with the other angels. A problem, aye. > Also, >as soon as the Cherub has punished somebody s/he must immediatly search for >the next one. Incorrect assumption -- her nature will probably _drive_ her to do so, but she can take a break if she wants, or if she has other stuff she needs to do. (This breakdown was supposed to make it into S3, wasn't it? It _is_ a bit of extrapolation from the main book paragraph, in a particular way, though I think it's all implicit. Unless I'm over two dimensions again and the book isn't the one I read. O:/ ) Or she can take the dissonance hit to delay the chase a bit while she does something else. Judgment gets kind of snarky, but hey... O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:28:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Cherub of Fire At 2:17 PM -0500 2/14/02, William J. Keith wrote: >Caveat: I haven't yet played a game involving any angels of Fire. However, >for letting a PC of Fire in the game, I did have this idea: allow the angel >to "turn off" their automatic perception of their particular flavor of >cruel individuals. Waurg! Right, need to add "Always On" Limitation... O:p A reasonable option, though -- most other attunements are optional. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:31:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) At 10:11 PM +0100 2/20/02, Donato Ranzato wrote: >From: "Elizabeth McCoy" >> The elemental Words still have power. Jean is still thunderstorm >> Lightning as well as Lightning harnessed to do mankind's bidding. >> Creation has always included things like the formation of planets. > >So, if the forming of planets strengthens Creation (which makes sense) than >Earth could be one big Tether of Eli. Maybe his biggest. That is why he left >Heaven because no matter where he is on earth, he is home....... *snicker* Or it could all be David's, since it's mostly Stone... Tether-formation is ineffable. The Earth is not, noticably, a Tether to Creation. Noticably. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:40:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: mine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> if only ... (shedim) >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:15:55 -0600 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 5 > >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:15:35 -0500 >From: Cameron McCurry >Subject: Re: IN> if only ... (shedim) > >> Plainly stated : an angel (or two) are sent to investigate the true cause of >> this unfortunate act. > > Now imagine the shock of the players when they find out that there was no >Infernal Intervention at all. It was just a mentally u n s table woman who snapped >and murdered her children. Or while the investigation is going on, some of >Christopher's people are plotting to rip her to pieces... > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:43:47 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... > I hope that helps some. (of course, the easiest thing to do is to degree > that celestials can ONLY ascend through Tethers. This was discussed a few > months back, IIRC. Seemed like a top-notch In Nomine mod to me.) Yup. The Eden Ban, one of my many heresies. I can repost the writeup or email it at request. - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:58:54 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > Tether-formation is ineffable. The Earth is not, noticably, a Tether to > Creation. Noticably. The mental image of demons getting burned up like mosquitos in a bug zapper when they attempt to take celestial form on Earth amuses. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:14:03 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) > So, if the forming of planets strengthens Creation (which makes sense) than > Earth could be one big Tether of Eli. Maybe his biggest. That is why he left > Heaven because no matter where he is on earth, he is home....... I've always been fond of the interpretation that Creation is a noun, not a verb. As in, "All of Creation". But then, my campaign has Eli as part of the Godhead, so I'm biased. :) - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:44:39 -0500 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... Eric Bertish wrote: >>I hope that helps some. (of course, the easiest thing to do is to degree >>that celestials can ONLY ascend through Tethers. This was discussed a few >>months back, IIRC. Seemed like a top-notch In Nomine mod to me.) > > Yup. The Eden Ban, one of my many heresies. I can repost the writeup or > email it at request. http://www.web-melange.org:81/in-nomine/inwod/edenban.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:54:29 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> What do Jordites DO? - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > I disagree that Angels of Jordi would have difficulty > dealing with other > angels and I would appreciate you guys citing examples of > how they would have difficulty doing so. Such difficulty would mainly be a matter of conflicting agendas. The example you requested: Jean: "There is a research group in Nevada doing a feasability study on building cleaner nuclear power plants. See that Hell doesn't interfere." Jordi: "There is a research group in Nevada doing a feasability study on building cleaner nuclear power plants. Stop them." ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:56:34 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) - --- Donato Ranzato wrote: > Earth could be one big Tether of Eli. If that were the case, demons would take damage just from entering the Corporeal plane. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "In a world without women, what would men become?" "Scarce, ma'am. Mighty scarce." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:11:36 -0500 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) Michael Walton wrote: > --- Donato Ranzato wrote: >>Earth could be one big Tether of Eli. > > If that were the case, demons would take damage just from > entering the Corporeal plane. Hey, I'm all for it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:04:12 -0500 From: Christopher Pipinou Subject: Re: IN> What do Jordites DO? On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:54:29 -0800 (PST) Michael Walton writes: > Such difficulty would mainly be a matter of conflicting > agendas. The example you requested: > > Jean: "There is a research group in Nevada doing a > feasability study on building cleaner nuclear power plants. > See that Hell doesn't interfere." > > Jordi: "There is a research group in Nevada doing a > feasability study on building cleaner nuclear power plants. > Stop them." This is, perhaps, why Jean and Jordi are listed as "Hostile" to each other... Here's an alternate possibility, using Jean and someone else he's "Hostile" to. Jean: "An Outcast, formerly of Lightning, has stolen a laser pistol and given it to a Soldier of War. The Soldier intends to use it in public against several of the Horde. Stop him before it is witnessed, and it is perhaps seized." Michael: "One of our Soldiers has a weapon from Lightning. Back him up so he can use it to maximum effect against the Demonic Tether he's about to attack." I see it as an RP possibility, really; and it's the GM's call as to what sort of agendas the Superior assigns... Best, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:52:08 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> A question on Celestial Combat... At 11:48 PM 2/19/02 -0600, you wrote: > I'm sorry if this question has already been asked - I'm sure it likely has >been - but I couldn't find any answers in the FAQ or elsewhere. > > It is repeatedly stated that a being in a Corporeal Vessel is immune to >Celestial attacks... But what is conspiciously not said is whether or not a >being in a Vessel is prohibited from making Celestial attacks. Perhaps I am >misreading things, but it looks to me like a Celestial in a Vessel is >allowed to make Celestial attacks on a Celestial floating around without a >Vessel. > > Am I interperting this right? It makes being without a Vessel even more >dangerous - not only are you vulnerable to Celestial attacks, but you are >Vulnerable to Celestial attacks from people whom you can't retaliate. I'm >not sure if this is such a bad thing, but... On a similar topic, would you >allow Celestial Grappling by someone who is in a Vessel? Certainly, you >still have to percieve them in order to attack them, and percieving a >Celestial form is a lot easier when you are also in Celestial form, but a >lot of the time Celestials will be able to spot someone in Celestial form >while they are in a Vessel, and proceed with the smackdown. I would make it so that one would have to also be in celestial form to directly attack someone in celestial form. Not only does it save a lot of headaches, it avoids contradicting the bit about celestial form being able to pass through normal matter. Note, artifacts and Songs like Celestial Light can be launched by a vessel-bound being (or mortal if appropriate) and cause celestial damage though, so you still aren't home free. > On a related topic - and also one that I'm sure has been discussed before, >but since I'm sounding silly already - does anyone find that Soul-killing >happens at all in their games? It seems to me that only a Heartless >Celestial ever really stands a chance of getting Soul-Killed - anyone else >should easily be able to make the Will roll to return to their Heart before >they loose too many Forces. Aside from psychological manipulation, are >there any good ways to a) get a Celestial out of their Vessel without >killing the Vessel(which just sends 'em back to their heart, albiet in >Trauma) and b) get them to stick around long enough for you to do serious >damage? I realize that fatalaties in Celestial Combat are supposed to be >rare due to the "Run away, Run away!" factor, but it seems to me a lot of >the supplements mention Soul-killed or Remnantized Celestials... a lot more >than makes sense when it's so easy to escape. Unless, of course, there's >just a lot of stubborn Celestials out there. Hah, like that'd ever happen. >;) Yeah, I noted this myself a while back. Not sure any good ideas were put forth to deal with it, though. - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day. Give a hobbit a ring and he eats fish for an age. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:06:58 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: Humans and Words (was Re: IN> Tethers of... Re: Jordi (rant)) At 04:31 PM 2/20/02 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:11 PM +0100 2/20/02, Donato Ranzato wrote: > >From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > >> The elemental Words still have power. Jean is still thunderstorm > >> Lightning as well as Lightning harnessed to do mankind's bidding. > >> Creation has always included things like the formation of planets. > > > >So, if the forming of planets strengthens Creation (which makes sense) than > >Earth could be one big Tether of Eli. Maybe his biggest. That is why he left > >Heaven because no matter where he is on earth, he is home....... > >*snicker* Or it could all be David's, since it's mostly Stone... > >Tether-formation is ineffable. The Earth is not, noticably, a Tether to >Creation. Noticably. Good thing; the Seneschal for that one would be pretty darn impressive... (not to mention the inevitable "demon barbecue" effect others mentioned :)). - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day. Give a hobbit a ring and he eats fish for an age. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:16:22 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Consider Animals-Technical Explanation At 04:42 PM 2/19/02 -0500, you wrote: >All these ideas make Jordi interesting and consistent, but >they also make it very difficult to play his angels while >working with any other angels, and an All-Jordian campaign >would be a very narrow and specialized sub-sub-genre. Which hits my biggest bug with Jordi; playability difficulties. It doesn't really matter if he's a right bastard or not (heck, in a demonic game every PC is working for a right bastard by definition), the problem is that as written it's tough to come up with reasons why he'd work with anybody else except in certain narrow ways. Having to always twist things to accomodate an PC angel of Animals being around is something you don't have to do nearly as much of for any other Superior, Archangel OR Demon Prince; even the Wind/Theft movement clause is easy enough to get around if you let them take brief trips away then come back (and people have already noted how to deal with the Divine Fire cruelty issue around here). But with Jordi as written, his interests so poorly overlap with the rest of Heaven that it's too often a ridiculous stretch to get one of his people involved in a campaign for prolonged periods. - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day. Give a hobbit a ring and he eats fish for an age. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2553 ********************************