in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 2 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2500 In this digest: Re: IN> IN Undead... IN> Kronos and Dissonance from angelic Resonances Re: IN> IN Undead... Re: IN> Kronos and Dissonance from angelic Resonances IN> Re: Mercurian/Impudite dissonance conditions. IN> Re: Undead Re: IN> Kronos and Dissonance from angelic Resonances Re: IN> Word Defeat: a Christmas Competition. IN> Some fluff... Sorry if it's not appropriate for the list... Re: IN> Re: Undead Re: IN> IN Undead... Re: IN> IN Undead... Re: IN> IN Undead... Re: IN> IN Undead... Re: IN> IN Undead... IN> Providence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:54:39 -0500 From: "Brian R. Boyko" Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... At 10:45 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone... This is my first thing to the list, so be gentle with me :o) > >The Undead in IN seem a bit underpowered, especially the vamps. Does anyone >have any good ideas? Or any ideas at all...? GURPS IN certainly provides abilities towards solving this problem - GURPS Undead should provide nessessary rules. Other than that, one of the best solutions I've found is to add +2 to Every roll in the game. It Really adds alot to the game. Brian. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:04:49 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: IN> Kronos and Dissonance from angelic Resonances He's a demon prince. Wouldn't he just go "Bah, a point of Dissonance!" and remove it or whatever? Surely a creature on the level of a demon prince is going to laugh in the face of Dissonance? Curious image there... Maybe there's a Demon of Dissonance. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 04:46:57 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... >From: CsHoneyman@aol.com >Subject: IN> IN Undead... >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:45:43 EST >The Undead in IN seem a bit underpowered, especially the vamps. Does anyone >have any good ideas? Yes. I suggest laughter. I suggest lots and lots of laughter. But then again, I hate vampires. And besides, these are supposed to be angels and demons. If mere cursed undead humans are comparable in power to them, something is direly out of whack. Maybe in a "Saminga Victory" scenario, but not in normal campaigns. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:31:39 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Kronos and Dissonance from angelic Resonances CsHoneyman@aol.com wrote: > He's a demon prince. Wouldn't he just go "Bah, a point of Dissonance!" and > remove it or whatever? Superiors don't react like that. Dissonance is more painful to them than to weaker celestials, not less. True, they can remove their own dissonance, but the very concept of acting dissonant is anathema to a Superior. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:59:35 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Mercurian/Impudite dissonance conditions. >> This is actually where I think In Nomine breaks down because Impudites are >> STILL not allowed to kill people when I have to think violence and > breaking >> necks is the thing that most Impudites that are created fall for. > > Actually, the vast minority of current Impudites are fallen Mercurians... > most current demons are Hellborn. > > And for those who do fall for preferring violence against humans, there's > always the Impudite of The War or Impudite of Death attunements. > > - -- > Chuckg Yep - also the Impudite of Dark Humor attunement. Also, Impudites can *hurt* humans, just not kill them, so they have the ability to beat humans senseless. A Mercurian can Fall without killing someone - remember that apart from Judges, they can't even hit someone as corporeal punishment. The problem with killing is that they can't get rid of the dissonance afterwards. Most bands still have the 'core' of their old dissonance conditions, and are in the same situation: A Seraph cannot contradict himself - one of the two staements would be a lie - Balseraph's cannot contradict themselves either. Neither Cherubim nor Djinn can harm their attuned; Neither Kyriotates nor Shedim can allow their host to die while they are in it; and so on. So the situation of Falling and then getting incredibly discordant would occur among any choir/band. A Mercurian seems to live by the "violence is the last resort of the incompetent" motto; they don't object to it, are quite happy to call in the Malakim, but can't bring themselves to do it themselves - while an Impudite is more concerned with the final outcome. It's a very different mindset (and frankly, I think that it would be more appropriate the other way around). As a final thought - Lilim who Redeem have the same resonance - sort off. What do people think of the idea that the first time a new Bright gets an Infernal Intervention on her resonance, she's used the diabolical version (a la GMG p.126)? Cheers, James. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 17:07:22 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Undead From: CsHoneyman@aol.com: > Hi everyone... This is my first thing to the list, Welcome! > so be gentle with me :o) Ohh, take away all our fun, why don't you... :-) > The Undead in IN seem a bit underpowered, especially the vamps. Does anyone > have any good ideas? Or any ideas at all...? They pretty much have to be, given that they can be created as cannon fodder; also, mortals need to be able to take them on. Remember that an undead isn't automatically distinguishable from a human, and they don't normally cause Disturbance, making them annoyingly difficult to locate, and reasonable spies. Not needing to breathe given them an edge over Celestials - - diving into a river is a quick and easy way to change the odds in a fight, while immortality (Strange term, for a soulless being whose already died, but you know what I mean) allows for very high levels of resources. Finally they are still human, meaning that Mercurians get dissonance for fighting them and Impudites for killing them (although it's not clear whether Impudites of Death should get dissonance for killing one). Finally, if you wish to beef them up, allowing them to exceed their potential Forces is an option - not one I'd recommend, but it's there. On each type: ZOMBIS Hell's endless supply of zombis is one of their main trump cards. I've played a fair bit with the potential zombis have, which you'll find in the archives, especially in Fantasy Month and Horror Month - once we have working archives again. It's worth noting that a zombi can create new zombis, if given the Zombi attunement. If you want to beef zombis up, consider the following: 1) making them from Soldiers of God. 6 Force zombis with Songs are very deadly, especially as the only Songs Soldiers can learn are the Corporeal ones- so the increase in Corporeal Forces makes them much more proficient - and they have the memories possessed by the Soldier, giving them a better understanding of what is going on than normal. 2)An alliance between Beleth & Saminga. Their current mutually antagonistic relationship is one of the reasons for the weakness of zombis. Consider that a Soldier of Hell can provide both a zombi and a Dreamshade, allowing these Superiors to 'carve them up equally'; the Soldier gains rewards from both Superiors in return for undertaking dangerous missions; once his inevitable death occurs, both Superiors have a new minion with a wide selection of abilities. 3) Attunements. A zombi keeps any Songs possessed by the human before zombification, but what about attunements? Divine attunements should be lost, of course, as the zombi has Infernal Forces - the effect would be similar to an angel Falling. If an Attunement is literally 'attuning' the recipient to an ability, then there is no reason why a zombi shouldn't be able to keep an Infernal or Ethereal attunement. Even if an Attunement is an 'item' which can only held by a single individual, Beleth should be able to grant the Ethereal Connection to the bodies of her Soldiers - once they become Dreamshades, they don't need it any more, so the zombi may as well have it. This makes an alliance even more necessary for beefing zombis up. 4) Character points. A mortal Servant can have many more skills than normal; plus 20 points if the level of Servant is upped by one. These skills are kept if the Servant is later zombified. True, most zombis only last a few months, but theoretically a zombi could last for millennia - and have incredibly high skill levels. The Mastery level is especially impressive here, as it allows a zombi to use skills based off Will and Perception as proficiently as any mortal, while their Corporeal skills are likely to be a match for a Celestials, given their high Corporeal Forces. 5) Status. The zombi of a CEO, police chief or Mayor is a more serious threat than a squad of Calabim. And if you kill the zombi, the local police are after you - a reputation as a cop killer is not something a angel wants (as the Malakite in my first campaign found out). 6) Ghosts. If a Ghost uses his corpse as an anchor, and the corpse is zombified, you have two beings with different powers but identical minds... VAMPIRES: Given that Vampires are botched creations, it's not surprising that they're weak. Still, remember that they're made from mortals - they *shouldn't* be terribly powerful. An important consideration for vampires is that they have, by definition, only 5 Forces. A vampire with 6 Forces is effectively a Mummy with Disadvantages, and would insist on the point to other undead - and have the power to back up the claims. However, given the 'coolness' factor that goes with vampires, even the mightiest Mummy, if revealed as Undead, would tell mundanes that he's a Vampire, so confusion should reign - if you want a powerful vampire, just create a Mummy who calls himself a vampire, and has the appropriate Disadvantages. Easy. (Also, a shrewd, powerful Mummy might take the Vampiric Disadvantages deliberately, so as to be underestimated by Celestials). Vampires are the only Undead who cannot, even theoretically, replicate - so creating a 'Vampirism' Song or Attunement to allow this will bring them closer to their popular image. Also, humans can get rid of Disadvantages; an old Vampire probably no longer Needs blood and is not harmed by sunlight - at this point they can use many of the tricks available to Mummies. A final point on Vampires - they can perform Celestial Songs. As such, most will learn Celestial harmony, granting temporary immunity to Sunlight (and easing their claim to be Mummies). And the other versions of Harmony are useful for surviving their first encounter with the PC's. MUMMIES: Okay, a Mummy has access to the following - Necromancy, Alchemy, Enchantment, Sorcery; Songs, Attunements & Distinctions. If made from Soldiers, they have 7 Forces; they can have any Resource. If the pursuit by angels gets too hot, they can head to the nearest building site, and have themselves entombed in the concrete, rendering attack incredibly difficult (why do you think they built the pyramids?) and use the Corporeal Song of Projection to keep up to date with what's going on, and then teleport out with Celestial Motion once things are safe - and the wisest may wait for years, or even centuries. They're pretty much indistinguishable from humans, allowing them to hang around Tethers, trying to spy out new Songs. Mummies are actually pretty tough. The thing is, they shouldn't go head to head with angels. If they need to fight, they should order in waves of zombis, and if things look bad, bolt. A Mummy is the power behind the scenes in Undead society; something that actually works in the favour of PC Soldiers of God. FINAL THOUGHTS: Any Undead can learn the Corporeal Song of Dreams. Although a zombi can't do much once inside the dreamscape (although having a zombi turn up would probably shift most dreams into Beleth's realm) other Undead can guide the dreamcape into the Far Marches and go looking for the Egyptian pantheon - the logical allies for a Undead on the make. So that Mummy may just have a Soul Link to a powerful ethereal..... The Songs of Sacrifice: A human ally with the appropriate Songs of Sacrifice can make unlife a lot easier for undead. Cheers, James. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 09:51:38 +0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Kronos and Dissonance from angelic Resonances Since he's not really of any standard band (or choir), you could reasonably rule that he's incapable of getting band/choir dissonance, regardless of how his attunement behaves on other demons. (I imagine he could still get dissonance for accidentally helping someone to their Destiny though.) In general, it is quite plausible that Superiors have reached a 'different state' and are all more tightly bound to their Word than to their Choir/Band. (Which roughly means that they _may_ be able to avoid 'lesser choir dissonance' if they are actively forwarding their word in some appropriate way. Frex, I'm sure Andrealphas doesn't get dissonant for allowing others to kill humans in pursuit of the perfect lay; regardless of being an Impudite.) jo >From: Kish >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Kronos and Dissonance from angelic Resonances >Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:31:39 -0800 > >CsHoneyman@aol.com wrote: > > > He's a demon prince. Wouldn't he just go "Bah, a point of Dissonance!" >and > > remove it or whatever? > >Superiors don't react like that. Dissonance is more painful to them than >to >weaker celestials, not less. True, they can remove their own dissonance, >but >the very concept of acting dissonant is anathema to a Superior. > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:53 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Word Defeat: a Christmas Competition. In article <000901c18668$1f2abd60$37d1ef80@jamoge.wm.edu>, jamoge@wm.edu (Josh Moger) wrote: > >So, I declare a Christmas competition for the best fable for newly-made > >relievers. How might a Demonic word be most readily made self- > defeating? > Belial's Victory(?) Well, I wouldn't call that an /easy/ way to make a word self-defeating, but as the only full-length entry, you get the shiny new point of essence. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:38:20 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: IN> Some fluff... Sorry if it's not appropriate for the list... >From the Celestial Inquirer: LUCIFER SUES CHURCH, WCC In what is set to become a landmark legal battle of apocalyptic proportions, the Devil today filed a lawsuit against the World Council of Churches (WCC) and its owner on behalf of himself and the Legions of Hell, Inc., claiming that he and his underlings have been mistreated by the members of the WCC and by their employer, the entity frequently known as God, Jesus, Yves, the Holy Ghost, Miguel Jimenez of Texas, and other entities. "I have had enough!" said Lucifer, speaking exclusively to the Celestial Inquirer. "For centuries, I have put up with being ridiculed and abused by these people, and I won't take it anymore! It's not just the hostile working environment I object to, it's the blatant anti-demonism!" The Lightbringer is suing the WCC and the God-entity for an undisclosed sum somewhere in excess of $50m, citing that he had been given a terrible job at the expense of his previous one — he became Lord of the Fiery Pit having previously been God's First Angel of Light — and also that he had been continually harassed by the WCC and its employer, alleging that crucifixes and Bibles were waved at him regularly, despite the fact that it was well known that these things caused him personal distress. God Himself was not available for comment, but we did manage to get a statement from one of his avatars, namely Eric Clapton, who spake thusly unto our reporter: "The Fact That We, The Alpha And Omega, The Sum Of All Parts, Are Being Sued By An Employee Makes A Mockery Of The Labor Laws of This Country Which is One Under Me. And Now Please Excuse Us, The LORD thy GOD Has To Play At A Gig In New York." He then excused Himself, explaining that He had to die on stage for all our sins. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 09:22:22 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Undead >An important consideration for vampires is that they have, by definition, >only 5 Forces. I thought it was simply that Mummies gain a force and Vampires don't. Therefore, if the vampire was originally a normal human with 5 forces, than he has 5 forces as normal, but if a vampire was originally a soldier with 6 forces, he would still have 6 forces (whereas a mummy would have 6 and 7 forces respectively). - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 08:20:10 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... CsHoneyman@aol.com wrote: > The Undead in IN seem a bit underpowered, especially the vamps. Does anyone> have any good ideas? Or any ideas at all...? Underpowered in what sense? Compared to celestials? They're supposed to be. This isn't V:tM. Undead in In Nomine are pathetic losers who've traded their souls for some trifling supernatural powers and a pale version of immortality. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:22:01 -0500 From: "Brian R. Boyko" Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... At 08:20 AM 1/1/02 -0600, you wrote: >CsHoneyman@aol.com wrote: > > The Undead in IN seem a bit underpowered, especially the vamps. Does > anyone> have any good ideas? Or any ideas at all...? > > >Underpowered in what sense? Compared to celestials? They're supposed to >be. This isn't V:tM. Undead in In Nomine are pathetic losers who've >traded their souls for some trifling supernatural powers and a pale >version of immortality. Oh, and THEN on top of THAT, someone botched things up in the resurrection deal. Still, this "incompetent" problem pops up for Humans also. Now, I love the game, but the system just kills me. >-David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 14:31:45 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian R. Boyko" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... [snip] > Still, this "incompetent" problem pops up for Humans also. Now, I love the > game, but the system just kills me. If you want a game where humans can give serious trouble to Celestials, play GURPS IN -- and use 250+ point humans. Gurps Special Ops (or God forbid, Black Ops) characters, in a setting where the characters have sufficient material support (1), can really really make life miserable. - -- Chuckg (1) This doesn't *only* mean "Big F**king Guns and the legal sanction to carry and use them freely"... but that, as always, that does help. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 16:18:36 -0500 From: "Brian R. Boyko" Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... At 02:31 PM 1/1/02 -0600, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brian R. Boyko" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 2:22 PM >Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... > > >[snip] > > Still, this "incompetent" problem pops up for Humans also. Now, I love >the > > game, but the system just kills me. > >If you want a game where humans can give serious trouble to Celestials, play >GURPS IN -- and use 250+ point humans. Gurps Special Ops (or God forbid, >Black Ops) characters, in a setting where the characters have sufficient >material support (1), can really really make life miserable. > >-- >Chuckg I'm not talking about 250 point humans - 25 point humans can be just as competent. Compare that to a human or soldier with Precision 2, Driving 1... Brian. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 16:02:19 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Undead... "Brian R. Boyko" wrote: > Still, this "incompetent" problem pops up for Humans also. Now, I love the> game, but the system just kills me. The CPG does have some optional rules which give humans a few edges. I particularly recommend the optional Skills rules (pp. 24-25), which make it a lot more likely that humans will succeed on their skill rolls. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:09:49 -0700 From: "Julian Mensch" Subject: IN> Providence I've been working on a Backwards In Nomine heresy for quite a while now, and I have this idea mulling around in the back of my head. It's just one idea of many for this alternate setting, but it's the specific one where I feel I could use a viewpoint other than my own. Spec- ifically, I'm considering making heretical-Zadkiel into the Archangel of Providence. To be honest, I find her current Word to be a lousy one, because it's an exact 1:1 correspondance with the nature of the Cherub Choir. This makes it a rather repetitive. Also, because my heresy is a little more philosopical and introspective than canon IN, I wanted a Word that invited greater thought and vagarity about it's nature, while still keeping true to the core aspects of Zadkiel's patern- alistic character. Now, I know the standard definition of Providence, but I'm wondering how other people would define it, what connotations they attach to it and what kind of outlook they would see for a hypothetical (Arch)Angel of Providence. My general one-line "lazy" definition of how Zaddy interprets it is "the influence that the will, vision and personality of God has on the every- day life of humans, thereby leading the world to the ultimate state of good." I'm considering "the Presence" as an alternate version of this Word, representing the human awareness of the divine Presence in all things. I'm not sure which I'll go with yet -- Zadkiel is the only Superior in my setting I haven't fixed a Word for yet. So any personal interpretations or thoughts (the more unusual or esoteric, the better) anyone has on either of these Words would be much appreuciated to help spur my brainstorming process. Thanks again, - -- Julian Mensch PS. Don't feel the need to consider the Backwards part heavily. The setting changes are more a matter of brightening demons than darkening angels, and I want both sides to be at least marginally sympathetic. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2500 ********************************