in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 15 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2514 In this digest: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> Archangels and Religions... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> Archangels and Religions... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion IN> The Forgettable Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion IN> Reverb Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 06:11:39 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... - --- David Edelstein wrote: > If Heaven could win the War just by humanity discovering > proof of God, > they have the means to present such proof already. They can prove the existence of angels, which merely _suggests_ the existence of God. Granted, that would convince most people. > Most of the planet now subscribes to a divine religion > (Christianity, > Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism). It hasn't helped. In the case of Christianity (and, I suspect, the others, but I have no direct experience with them), most people are nominal believers who just go through the motions without any real faith. That's how it is in RL, anyway, and I don't see anything that suggests that things are different in IN. That kind of religious practice serves Hell better than it does Heaven. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 06:15:42 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Amok Guns Oh, the possibilities... ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:18:50 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Archangels and Religions... As to Eli, I think he might be into something like Eckankar or the like. http://religioustolerance.org/eck.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 06:20:43 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... - --- Kish wrote: > Depends on whether it also proved, say, that Jesus did > indeed Fall and > is indeed now going by the name Kronos. There's no > guarantee proving > Jesus was the Son of God would also prove he was/is > /good/. Touche. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:08:04 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... True, Vapula makes and employs no calabim, but *surely* he could acquire a would-be Renegade or disfavored servitor from some other Word? And might it not be useful to leave one or two Ethereal Forces for things like auto-targeting features? Just because the low-pitched screaming then becomes interspersed with babbled pleas for mercy and offers to cut deals doesn't mean you can't ignore them. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 15:14:04 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... >From: Earl Wajenberg >Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:08:04 -0500 >And might it not be useful to leave one or two Ethereal Forces >for things like auto-targeting features? Just because the >low-pitched screaming then becomes interspersed with babbled >pleas for mercy and offers to cut deals doesn't mean you can't >ignore them. True, but if it's disgruntled enough at being in there, it might "accidentally" shoot you in the foot. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:20:38 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Am I the only one who immediately saw non-Lightning angels grabbing hold of these things and shooting Emptiness at every Habbalah they could find? Josh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:15:14 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Archangels and Religions... Michael Walton wrote: > > Christopher: Is less interested in promoting ONE given > > religion then in> > making sure people stop using Religion as an excuse to > > abuse kids, such as> > die-hard christians giving their kids "the Belt" This isn't particularly a Christian practice. > Ah, but a truly divine variant of animism wouldn't create > Ethereals. Hinduism is the exception that proves the rule. Argh! "The exception that proves the rule" does NOT refer to a proven exception to a rule that therefore proves the rule is correct. That makes no sense, even if it's how most people misuse it nowadays. It refers to testing a rule with an exception, and if the exception FAILS, the rule is proven. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:16:46 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Michael Walton wrote: > They can prove the existence of angels, which merely > _suggests_ the existence of God. Granted, that would > convince most people. They could also prove the existence of Heaven (and its alternative). At any rate, proving Jesus isn't the point and therefore wouldn't be a goal for the angels. > In the case of Christianity (and, I suspect, the others, > but I have no direct experience with them), most people are > nominal believers who just go through the motions without > any real faith. Yes, which is why the angels don't just reveal themselves. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 11:21:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Charles Glasgow wrote: > True, but if it's disgruntled enough at being in there, it might > "accidentally" shoot you in the foot. Wouldn't the same danger apply to a spirit stripped to nothing but Celestial Forces? Wouldt that be enough to be grumpy? It's enough to scream. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:26:21 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... >Am I the only one who immediately saw non-Lightning angels grabbing hold of >these things and shooting Emptiness at every Habbalah they could find? *chortle* No. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:31:26 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... >From: Earl Wajenberg >Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 11:21:21 -0500 >Wouldn't the same danger apply to a spirit stripped to nothing >but Celestial Forces? Wouldt that be enough to be grumpy? >It's enough to scream. No Celestial Forces = No Memory. Sure, it's still got Will and Perception... but if it can't recall what it was, or even what happened five minutes ago, then it can only react to events in an eternal now. OTOH, leaving a surviving Ethereal Force lets it recall that it once used to be alive and free -- hence the piss-off. (Of course, without any Celestial Forces, maybe it won't have any Will to contradict you... sticky question.) - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:37:42 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... >From: "Charles Glasgow" >Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:31:26 >No Celestial Forces = No Memory. Agh, error! Correction -- "No *Ethereal* Forces = No Memory" - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:39:05 -0800 From: "Christopher Hughes" Subject: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion - --=_1E436B55.294824D5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline All this argument over whether certain archangels would be pagan and = people yelling that paganism is not a divine religion is forcing me to = stand up and inform ya'll that, at least now in the 20th- and 21st-century,= paganism is more than likely divine. My personal favorite tradition of = Wicca, which feeds my personal beliefs, of course, would obviously be = divine. Reclaiming believes more in an immanent divinity in and of all = things than in any Goddess or God. Furthermore, while we often talk as = such, we recognize that they are only symbols and Starhawk (one of the = founders) often takes pains to warn her readers away from beginning to = worship either of them. But, anyway, my point is that paganism is not necessarily non-divine, = ethereal, or infernal. I've definitely seen or heard of some traditions = and eclectics who would be any or all of those things, but none of the = classifications are at all inherent in paganism, which is really a term = that covers many religions, spiritualities, and beliefs, collectively at = least three times as diverse as those covered under "divine religions", as = it has been defined so far in this discussion. Somewhere, out there, on the Web, I remember seeing Ceridwen, Archangel of = Spring and patron of Wicca/Paganism. Just thought that I would throw in = something that was actually IN-related . . . . Chris et alia - --=_1E436B55.294824D5 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TEXT.htm" All this argument over whether certain archangels would be pagan and people yelling that paganism is not a divine religion is forcing me to stand up and inform ya'll that, at least now in the 20th- and 21st-century, paganism is more than likely divine. My personal favorite tradition of Wicca, which feeds my personal beliefs, of course, would obviously be divine. Reclaiming believes more in an immanent divinity in and of all things than in any Goddess or God. Furthermore, while we often talk as such, we recognize that they are only symbols and Starhawk (one of the founders) often takes pains to warn her readers away from beginning to worship either of them. But, anyway, my point is that paganism is not necessarily non-divine, ethereal, or infernal. I've definitely seen or heard of some traditions and eclectics who would be any or all of those things, but none of the classifications are at all inherent in paganism, which is really a term that covers many religions, spiritualities, and beliefs, collectively at least three times as diverse as those covered under "divine religions", as it has been defined so far in this discussion. Somewhere, out there, on the Web, I remember seeing Ceridwen, Archangel of Spring and patron of Wicca/Paganism. Just thought that I would throw in something that was actually IN-related . . . . Chris et alia - --=_1E436B55.294824D5-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:59:26 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Christopher Hughes wrote: > > All this argument over whether certain archangels would be pagan and people yelling that paganism is not a divine religion is forcing me to stand up and inform ya'll that, at least now in the 20th- and 21st-century, paganism is more than likely divine. Not in IN. > My personal favorite tradition of Wicca, which feeds my personal beliefs, of course, would obviously be divine. Obviously. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:00:59 -0800 (PST) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Christopher, > All this argument over whether certain archangels would be pagan You bring up some good points, but the game questions are going to be: 1) if I'm a pagan, where does my Essence go when I worship? 2) if I believe in a divinity, where does this being reside (not "where do I, as a flawed mortal *believe* it resides")? Just my $ .02 O. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:08:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion O. S. Kerr wrote: > You bring up some good points, but the game questions are going to be: > > 1) if I'm a pagan, where does my Essence go when I worship? Possibly you don't generate/expend essence when you worship. Or it may just circulate back into the Symphony (especially likely if you're a non-theistic pagan monist). Or it could go to your deity, if it exists. > 2) if I believe in a divinity, where does this being reside (not > "where do I, as a flawed mortal *believe* it resides")? If it exists, it lives in the Marches, on the Ethereal Plane. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:21:15 EST From: Galen Silversmith Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion > From: David Edelstein > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion > Christopher Hughes wrote: > > > > All this argument over whether certain archangels would be pagan and > > people yelling that paganism is not a divine religion is forcing me to > > stand up and inform ya'll that, at least now in the 20th- and > > 21st-century, paganism is more than likely divine. > Not in IN. Well, why not? Certainly, it willdepend on the flavor of paganism, but lets examine this: The nature of god is CDaU. That god is a single essence/creature/being, rather than a collective may tread pass these lines, but really only Yves and Kronos would be able to say one way or another. Further, if god is the Symphony, in any respect, it certainly lends some credence to pantheistic religions, if not polytheistic. Even if god is a single creature, that makes a base tenant of (most) pagan faiths Not True. But they are not Lies, either, as the pagan gods do exist, just as creatures of the Marches rather than celestials in their own rights. As for other tenants of pagan faiths, it can vary a lot, much like versions of christianity or islam. Many of these faiths have basic tenants that heavan would support; the threefold law, do no harm, build communities and families, etc. The major flaw in heavan supporting pagan faiths is that the faiths support Ethereals rather than Celestials. (which, depending on the Point of View, may or may not be better than a faith supporting Hell and the Horde). If, in your world, there are heaven-aligned ethereals, this is not a large problem. Novalis and Blandine would probably be supportive, if not thrilled, with ethereals who served or supported heaven. The purity crusades made this Hard, but not impossible. Now, a pagan religion cannot support heaven directly, if there is an object of worship. Any form of god or idol would support an ethereal version of that god or idol. Panthestics could support heaven directly, by worshiping the divine in everything. But none of this makes it impossible for there to be a angel supporting pagan religons. Just like there may be an ethereal Uncle Sam and an angel with the word of American Patriotism or Patriotism for the USA . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 11:35:33 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Galen Silversmith wrote: > > Not in IN. > > Well, why not? Because in IN, pagan spirits are real and they aren't divine. This doesn't mean they're evil, but they are not affiliated with Heaven. > But none of this makes it impossible for there to be a angel supporting> pagan religons. It would be kind of like a Christian trying to convert people to Islam. An angel might be tolerant of pagans, but he's not going to support them. Not to mention that Judgment would be all over an angel supporting pagan religions. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:36:12 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion >From: Galen Silversmith Any form of god or idol would support an ethereal version of >that god or idol. Panthestics could support heaven directly, by worshiping >the divine in everything. Hmm when you think about it Christianity DID go around and subvert all the local gods in to their own and call them Saints or Angels, some were renamed as Demons too. >But none of this makes it impossible for there to be a angel supporting >pagan religons. Just like there may be an ethereal Uncle Sam and an angel >with the word of American Patriotism or Patriotism for the USA . Um isnt this covered in one of the books or was i just dreaming that? Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 15:06:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Well, m-w.com redirects "pagan" to "heathen" regarding the religious aspect, and that definition is: 1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible 1 : a polytheist; one who worships multiple gods 2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person (the two "1s" are from the definitions of "heathen" and "heathens" - two different entries for some reason) Now, I'm aware that there are many, many groups out there calling themselves "pagans" who do not fall into this category. Most of those groups are what should properly be called "neo-pagans" and/or "new agers". Wicca is the classic example of a neo-pagan religion, for example, as a synthesis of Judeo-Christianity and Paganism. My points? 1. Paganism is, by DEFINITION, the worship of other beings besides God. 2. Just because you call yourself a pagan doesn't mean you are one. :) So don't take offense - no one said Wicca wasn't Divine. We said PAGANISM isn't Divine. The two are vastly different. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Why waste $30 or even $40 on a filthy porno movie when you can jerk off all over the Church of the SubGenius?" -- Rev. Godfather Gillan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:55:46 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> The Forgettable To set the tone, have a look at my source of inspiration: http://www.designshed.com/lostframe.html "And you come out here *looking* for this stuff?" "Oh, just every single night... there's something about exploring these ruins at night." Sarontan, Seraph indirectly of Litheroy and more directly to the Angel of Archaeology, was confronting an enigma. Literally. On his way to the site of a Native American dig, he found this fellow poking around an old abandoned gas station. Thinking it was odd, he pulled over, not quite sure what to make of it, and engaged both the fellow and his resonance. "What did you say your name was again?" "Kyle." Absolute, simple Truth from the mysterious fellow, who looked completely human, but didn't have any last name, or a Word. The man had nothing but a first name. Sarontan nodded, finding groundwork of a mystery and hating it, but at least respecting the man's honesty. "And where are you from?" "Oh, around..." The man brushed a lock of hair out of his face and set about inspecting the old-time manually operated gasoline pump. And despite the apparently coy answer Kyle gave, Sarontan's resonance confirmed it, suggesting that he was from *all* around, and that the Marches were somehow involved. Sarontan's nature got the better of him, and voiced an accusation. "You're an Ethereal spirit, though you're by far the blandest I've ever seen on Earth." Kyle maintained that perpetual smile, and even gave Sarontan an acknowledging nod, as with one hand he pulled a support from under the porch. And even before the roof fully collapsed, the last image in Sarontan's mind was that of an ever-growing piece of wood. Back in Heaven, when he finally recovered from Trauma, a Seraph and a Malakite were waiting, and right away the Seraph asked, "Tell us who did this." Sarontan immediately began, "His name was Kyle, and .......I can't remember anything else about him." The Seraph scowled, his own resonance telling him that Sarontan was telling the whole truth. ... How many dreamshades are forgotten? For every one memorable character from a dream or a nightmare, there must be throngs of people who see only the tiniest glimpse of the Ethereal limelight and then are heard from no more. Or so you might *wish*. What if the merest glimpses of those ordinary and non-notable people snowballed in the Marches? A thousandth of an Essence from ten thousand different dreams can be quite a windfall, even to the Ethereal Pantheons. And this is happening in the Marches, where some of the *darndest* things gain sentience. So what do we have? Not much, or quite a threat: nondescript dreamshades of indeterminate origin and potentially extreme power. And so ordinary-looking that they might somehow fly below the collective radars of both Heaven *and* Hell. It's inconceivable that Blandine and Beleth wouldn't know about these things, but tracking them down could be another matter. After all, they're so nondescript that nobody can really remember what they look like. Those that theorize about them as a class of entity believe that most of them hang out on Beleth's side of the Marches. Think about it: there are few places more anonymous than in the dream-crowd of someone dreaming about being in his underwear in public. Where something bad is happening to someone in a dream, and a crowd is watching, the dreamer's focus is on himself, and the Forgettable like it like that. Yes, crowd scenes appear in good dreams too, but the Forgettable are equally hard in either. We might as well call them "The Forgettable," because they are: look at the same one on two different occasions, and they might look different. Not that they change shape or anything, but because you just can't remember what they looked like the last time. In the Marches, they lurk around forgotten dreams and untouched dreamscapes. This is another thing that makes them hard to catch: they are by definition hanging around where nobody is looking, and the moment someone thinks to look there, they move on. Sometimes they get enough Essence that they can form a vessel. Those that do maintain their nondescriptness -- it's just part of their nature -- and go on doing what they did in the Marches: seeking out forgotten, abandoned places to explore and revel in. What do The Forgottable want? That will vary. Some might want to be remembered, even if it's for doing something very, very bad. Others, who get their power by being forgotten, might well wish to remain quite alone. Those Forgotten might do some very, very bad things to remain forgotten. Plus, being remembered by someone who can come back from Heaven (or Hell) is something of a "negative survival trait." This puts anyone who discovers them into a potentially very, very bad situation... most of the Forgettable can best be described as "sociopaths who don't really know what they want." When they decide what they want, they will pursue it single-mindedly, committing all manner of atrocities along the way. And woe betide anyone who gets in their way. Like most player characters. >:) (Side question: Given this definition of The Forgettable above, would the Malakite of Blandine resonance pick them up? Or, as perfectly ordinary dreamshades, would they blend in?) - --David http://skipjack.bluecrab.org/~dwood "This job is a learning experience. These days, I'm learning not to speak my mind, answer the phone, or respond to my own name." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 11:04:13 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion - --- Galen Silversmith wrote: > But none of this makes it impossible for there to be a > angel supporting > pagan religons. Just like there may be an ethereal Uncle > Sam and an angel > with the word of American Patriotism or Patriotism for > the USA . That analogy simply doesn't fly. Uncle Sam is not and has never been a religious figure; Americans may revere that particular symbol of our country, but we do not worship it. Ethereal gods actively seek the worship of Humans, thus diverting worship away from Heaven. That's something that Heaven isn't going to support. Heaven-aligned Ethereals must, perforce, be the sort of beings that either don't require worship (i.e. Primal Spirits, Dream Elements) or are too minor to attract worship yet. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:58:46 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion - --- Christopher Hughes wrote: > > at least now in the 20th- and 21st-century, paganism is > more than likely divine. Not in IN canon, though that's hardly an authority as regards real-world belief systems. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:47:34 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion From: "Christopher Hughes" > > paganism is more than likely divine. Some pagan religions may be, but paganism as a whole (well, as "whole as anything that falls under such a wide blanket label as "paganism") is not. An individual pagan who believed that all gods are nothing more than aspects of a single divine creator might be directing essence toward Heaven when worshipping, but those who believe in Odin, Zeus, etc. as actual, independant deities would be directing their essence toward the Marches instead. And as the definition of divine religion is IN is one that causes essence to flow toward Heaven, the latter example would *not* be a divine religion. None of this is to say that paganism is bad, just that it causes essence to be directed to somewhere other than the celestial. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:49:04 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion From: "Christopher Hughes" > Starhawk (one of the founders) On a side note, Starhawk is the founder of one specific Wiccan denomination, not of Wicca as a whole. But that is neither here nor there where In Nomine is concerned, so that is thelast I shall post to the list about it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:52:34 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion From: "Galen Silversmith" > > From: David Edelstein > > > > Not in IN. > > Well, why not? Because the pagan gods are ethereal, rather than celestial beings, and because a religion has to direct essence toward Heaven for it to be a divine one in the game. While there is a large number of things that are CDaU, that much is not. > But none of this makes it impossible for there to be a angel supporting > pagan religons. If that angel is found to be supporting them, however, then that is grounds for trial before Judgment. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 15:46:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Reverb Reverb is a celestial ... condition in which objects and events related to one's Word show up with unusual frequency. One would be tempted to call it a minor Discord, but this would be socially inept (or dangerous), since all Superiors exhibit the condition, it is common in Wordbound, and is commoner in unWorded servitors the more highly distincted they are. Some examples: If you associate, knowingly or not, with an angel of Flowers, you'll notice things like lots fo weeds growing through the cracks in nearby pavement, lots of people at the office getting bouquets delivered, lots of ads for florists, lots of people wearing floral prints and perfume, and so forth. If you're around an angel of Trade or a demon of Mammon, you'll be surprised at the number of pyramid schemes showing up in your e-mail, ads for sales and financial services will leap to your eye from every quarter, and speaking of quarter, you'll tend to find coins on the sidewalk (if the demon of Mammon doesn't find them first). Reverb symptoms for other Words are left as an exercise to the list. Reverb is most obvious on the Ethereal Plane, where self-image is arbitrary. It can be controlled with minor (no roll) acts of volition, but keeps creeping back uinless attended to. On the other Planes, Reverb can be suppressed for Celestial Forces hours by a successful Will roll, which can be re-tried once a minute. Or, for Wordbound, the effect can be *enhanced* for the same amount of time. Many Wordbound revel in it, as Superiors sometimes do, though bother find it wise to tidy up afterwards (or tell an underling to do so). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:01:44 -0800 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion This whole talk about Pagan deities got me started on an idea that would probably have changed a large chunk of Celestial history. It boils down to a simple little idea, positing a difference between Celestials and Ethereals. Worship doesn't matter to Celestials. In other words, no amount of humans at church giving praise to God On High is going to generate essence for Heaven, or Hell for that matter. Basically, Celestials are different from Ethereals in that they are representatives of the underlying fabric of the Symphony, and thus it doesn't matter how much you believe or don't believe in them. They're still there. It's a difference of Words and Names. A Celestial gains essence when the Word he serves grows in importance. An Ethereal gains essence when he grows in importance, or at least belief, amongst humans. Example: A ruinous hurricane cleanses a town in the middle of riots. Janus gains essence, Poseidon doesn't. Why? Because the Word of the Wind is being supported here, not the Name of Poseidon, despite the fact that this would be right up his alley. What this would mean is that Celestials and Ethereals -could- coexist without neccessarily depriving each other of essence. Of course, angels might disapprove of the Ethereals 'poaching' worshippers, and demons might be annoyed by 'upstarts' encroaching on their job, but that'd be a matter of individual taste. Thoughts? Phillip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian "Hey! That's not what we use vessels for, mister!' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:20:29 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... >Am I the only one who immediately saw non-Lightning angels grabbing hold of >these things and shooting Emptiness at every Habbalah they could find? > >Josh Ooh, nice thought. What I thought was, "Resonance Backlash." What if a 1-Force Amok Gun (or one used for Emptiness a lot) had its targets resist frequently enough that it eventually suffered the backlash and... ...well, I don't know how much of a delusion of angelhood could be left for a being with no Ethereal Forces, but the basic principle is still there. A wanna-be Redeemed Amok Gun (or, to bend canon a little further, one that just self-Redeemed) could make a curious tale indeed. William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:30:55 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... At 10:08 AM 1/15/02 -0500, you wrote: >True, Vapula makes and employs no calabim, but *surely* he could >acquire a would-be Renegade or disfavored servitor from some >other Word? > >And might it not be useful to leave one or two Ethereal Forces >for things like auto-targeting features? Just because the >low-pitched screaming then becomes interspersed with babbled >pleas for mercy and offers to cut deals doesn't mean you can't >ignore them. While that would add to the traditional Vapula "inventions even R&D from Paranoia would never be crazy enough to make" feel, I think in general nobody would give a device like this any sort of free will, lest it start turning on them. Admittedly it does block the problem of angels blasting Habbalah with Emptiness after swiping one (although perhaps a backlash could affect the weapon; what do the angels do with a gun that wants to Redeem? :)). I can't see Lilim versions of this either; not counting how it would complicate the mechanics of Geasing, I'm pretty sure Lilith would freak nasty over this kind of thing (not only does it enslave her Daughters in nasty fashion, more importantly it undercuts what she has to offer). The Balseraph and Impudite versions might actually be loudspeakers one speaks into to activate the appropriate resonance on your words. - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com Before you try to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:29:31 -0800 (PST) From: "O. S. Kerr" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion > This whole talk about Pagan deities got me started on an idea That makes a whole lot of sense... in fact many of the more "liberal" AAs (Janus and Eli spring to mind, right away) would gleefully support righteous pagans, since the mortal could wear more than one hat, as it were. A pagan artist, for example, who painted beautiful murals dedicated to Apollo would be supporting Creation as much as his patron Ethereal god. And a worshipper of Loki would be right up Wind's alley... Huh! My next campaign should be *interesting...* O. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:31:33 -0800 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion > This whole talk about Pagan deities got me started on an idea that would >probably have changed a large chunk of Celestial history. It boils down to >a simple little idea, positing a difference between Celestials and >Ethereals. > > Worship doesn't matter to Celestials. > > Thoughts? > > Phillip, the Happy Shiny Mercurian huh. Off the top of my head, I am not sure this even, intrinsically, contradicts Canon. I mean, we all know that worship give essence to Ethereals. But I do not recall anywhere that it says that worship gives essence to Celestials. I would say, when it comes right down to it, that celestials are morec concerned with Fate and Destiny, and the strength of their words. But actual worship? Worship of God, as a means of guiding Humans to their destiny, yah, I can see that... Certainly, that is what Laurence would say is the important thing (and more, that the worship should occur in the context of Catholic Churches and religion). Makes for an interesting idea. Good one Phillip. -Daiv - -- hammer and anvil fire sweat iron and breath forging destiny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:44:03 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion - --- Phillip Des Jardins wrote: > Basically, Celestials are different from Ethereals in > that they are > representatives of the underlying fabric of the Symphony, > and thus it > doesn't matter how much you believe or don't believe in > them. They're still there. Hmmmmmm. Jumping off from that point, one can say that Celestials are free to love (or hate) Humans because they don't really _need_ Humans. Ethereals, OTOH, must have Essence from Human belief in order to survive; even the best of them can't help regarding Humans as resources. That brings up two other possibilities: Bright: God is as powerful as he/she/it is because God is the entity who is most free of the need for Human belief. God was there before Humanity and will still be there when the last Human is gone. Even Superiors depend on Humans somewhat for the strength of their Words, but God has no such worries. Thus, God is in the best position to regard Humans with love and/or objectivity because he doesn't need to consume anything that they produce. Dark: if Yahweh is indeed a jumped-up Ethereal, he is in fact the biggest predator on Human dreams out there. He needs worship more than all the other gods combined, and will go to astonishing lengths to get it -- including the creation of new classes of spirits -- angels -- that don't require Human belief for their survival (more for the boss). ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2514 ********************************