in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 16 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2515 In this digest: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> The Forgettable Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion IN> The Day the Heavens stood still (was Archangel of Ethereals) IN> Paganism and Divine Religions Re: IN> The Day the Heavens stood still (was Archangel of Ethereals) Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Reverb Re: IN> The Day the Heavens stood still (was Archangel of Ethereals) Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... IN> Hats off to Moe... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... IN> Archangels and time (was Re: Ethereal AA...) Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion IN> A quick question for you all... Re: IN> A quick question for you all... Re: IN> A quick question for you all... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:35:22 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... From: "William J. Keith" > > ...well, I don't know how much of a delusion of angelhood could be left for > a being with no Ethereal Forces, but the basic principle is still there. A > wanna-be Redeemed Amok Gun (or, to bend canon a little further, one that > just self-Redeemed) could make a curious tale indeed. "Where did this screen telling me what the emotional state of the person I just shot at come from?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:34:02 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Forgettable Interesting. The one thing I see wrong with this is that the ones that want to be remembered, once they reach a certain threshold of power, would find it very easy to stop being forgettable. Of course, those are probably the ones that get stomped on the fastest; natural selection could eventually make the nondescript hermit types the norm. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 01:36:25 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Christopher Hughes wrote: > All this argument over whether certain archangels would be pagan and people yelling that paganism is not a divine religion is forcing me to stand up and inform ya'll that, at least now in the 20th- and 21st-century, paganism is more than likely divine. My personal favorite tradition of Wicca, which feeds my personal beliefs, of course, would obviously be divine. Reclaiming believes more in an immanent divinity in and of all things than in any Goddess or God. Which is why it couldn't possibly be, in IN terms, divine. Unless I misunderstood the definition in the GMG, the key to whether a religion is divine is whether it believes in God--whether it is monotheistic. I could be wrong, of course. (David?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:41:03 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Day the Heavens stood still (was Archangel of Ethereals) [That kind of religious practice serves Hell better than it does Heaven.] Does it? Technically speaking I think Heaven considers the current trend toward enlightened skepticism creating a much better religion that will embody God's will than the "Fire and Brimstone" days of the Past. The Crusades, the Inquisiton, The Puritan Revivals, Jihad, Fundementalism, heck even periods of the Mormon Great March were times when people were certain of their faiths and Hell benefitted from that immenent fear more than Heaven I'm certain. Realize in In nomine canon religion is a form of History and a Science of Destiny as opposed to a ticket to Heaven (I share the same view in real life). Being a Christain or a Wiccan isn't going to save you because you believe in God or the Goddess it's that any relationship/feeling/knowledge you get out of that relationship is more likely to lead you to your destiny. Furthemore there's a strong sensation among Christians that God has revealed himself (no doubt among the religious in every religion) and that doing more is just degrading to the process. For instance let's say that shock of shocks we discover that Laurence descends in the Middle of Time Square and announces the truth of the universe to the World at Large. Reactions as I understand it would probably be A:) Disbelief: The very idea Heaven doesn't know which is the proper religion, whether Jesus was the son of God, etc is plenty disturbing as is the fact that angels aren't necessarily the most pure and chaste beings in the world. Also many people I think would prefer to chalk it up to Aliens, Government hoax, or even magic rather than acknowledge the Judeo-Christain turned inside out revealtions B:) God's back, Everyone look busy!: Which is basically the idea that people have no particular cause in their life and suddenly they see some new game in town to jump in. Malphas, Asmodeus, and Kronos would be doing little magic happy dances as they filled the streets with hung homosexuals, liberated women, Jews, Christains, Catholics, Protestants, Wiccans, and every other person who you can paint "sinner" on. C:) Radical Increase in Arms: While many in the government would fold face and turn there are others in the world who would with proper encouragement I think want to deal with this on a different level....including developing systems for managing such things and if necessarily pulling out the guns. Heaven is lead by Laurence and Laurence is of the mind "Give unto Caesar what is Caesars" (Jesus) and that it is best not to encourage an atmosphere of shock and horror. Really speaking the Archangels KNOW the universe is created by God just like the religious KNOW the universe was as well....there's frankly just as much faith as always and at the end of their lives there going to know God exists anyway Better to promote good in General and know that when it occurs at it's height everyone will know the truth of God because life will have been perfected. While some Angels such as Laurence and Khalid have very specific ideas on what religions are best for mankind (take note both of them are very young angels) I'm fairly sure all the other angels consider it's not what mortals are taught but what they do with it. To believe otherwise is rather foolish when your first religious tenant is "Do no harm"or "do unto others as they would do unto you" and yet people still put guns to people's head andblow them away. - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:56:57 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Paganism and Divine Religions Angels supporting Paganism. The first reason that Angels would not support Pagan gods is NOT that they are generating essence for the spirits guys but I think it needs to be noted this... A:) Supporting Pagan religions is to an angel, lying to mortals I'm sure you could make an arguement that Marion Zimmer Bradley Goddess worship is a divine religion with every one worshipped as an aspect of the Divine just as the same you could do with Hindu worship of Brahmen.....it still causes me a headache figuring out why Taoism produces no ethereals yet Hinduism doesn't.... Could someone explain that one? However Angels KNOW that Ethereals are just creations of imaginations. David created the Earth not Odin and Michael drove away Satan from the Heavens not Zeus driving away Kronos. Lucifer gave humanity fire not Promethus and while they get specifics wrong Judaism got their messages from God confirmably along with Islam, Zorostrism and Christainity getting at least their info from an Archangel if not God. The Highest choir in Heaven and their nobility are frankly devoted to the Truth as a concept and most angels dislike Lying normally I think B:) Angels will support Pagan cultures but to Heavengly values While the books don't go into it much I find it difficult to believe in In Nomine canon there have been no angels in India, Japan, South America, North America, and the Islands of the Pacific until the arrival of the Divine Religion's followers. Uriel supported the quite pagan Roman Empire not because he believed in Jupiter but because he believed (I think at least) that the culture would foster strong moral values and order. If a region is divided over religious values with a KKK rallying populous and a group of Pagan worshippers about to be massacred a Angel of the Sword is not going to let the monsters bear his Cross to murder the innocent. He may disagree with them but it is the spirit of the law than the letter. As an angel he might inform the worshipes there a bit misguided but it'll be far less and long after the the smackdown he lays on the fundementalists serving Hell with God's name C:) Heaven has a great deal more to worry about With Raphael Dead, Eli Banished, Uriel ascended, Dominic divided, and Gabriel insane the only two Angels left with any significant devotion left to religion are Laurence and Khalid. Yves has come to the conclusion that humans cannot be trusted I think with Divine messages. Too many prejudices, cultural needs to back one's government/self with the power of God as an excuse, and taboos get tacked on to religion. In effect I think the old man has decided to re-establish with philosophy the core idea of religion that it is meant to EDUCATE about God as opposed to tell you what to do. A modern idea or a very old one depending on your campaign flavor - -Charlemagne P.S. I don't much care for the Jesus as Kronos theory myself. It's seems insulting to a historical figure who to my knowledge never did anything to deserve such treatment Kronos is after all even more than Lucifer in In Nomine the archtypical image of the Devil _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:28:18 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> The Day the Heavens stood still (was Archangel of Ethereals) Really speaking the Archangels KNOW the universe is created by God just like the religious KNOW the universe was as well....there's frankly just as much faith as always and at the end of their lives there going to know God exists anyway snip Well, depends on the game, I would say. Look at the Seraph Archangels. They know. Really. Truly. As in the ultimate Truth. They Know God exists. Whats more, the Archangels that existed before the Rebellion heard God speak through the Metatron. No human could possibly Know that God exists in the same manner that the Archangels do. They can believe and have faith and be concrete in their religion, but they can't KNOW. Which is why a lot of canon angels find human religions uproariously funny. Josh (Bal)Seraph of Heresy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:36:26 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion >Christopher Hughes wrote: > >> All this argument over whether certain archangels would be pagan and people yelling that paganism is not a divine religion is forcing me to stand up and inform ya'll that, at least now in the 20th- and 21st-century, paganism is more than likely divine. My personal favorite tradition of Wicca, which feeds my personal beliefs, of course, would obviously be divine. Reclaiming believes more in an immanent divinity in and of all things than in any Goddess or God. > >Which is why it couldn't possibly be, in IN terms, divine. Unless I misunderstood the definition in the GMG, the key to whether a religion is divine is whether it believes in God--whether it is monotheistic snipididoodah Loophole alert!: Voodoun can allow for divine essence to be generated. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 03:04:00 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion IIRC, in Canon, the whole deal with the War is not whether any particular religion is divine or infernal based on its beliefs, but how much it supports selflessness/selfishness + Destiny/Fate - Selflessness is good, because it often drives individuals towards their brightest future, their Destinies, whereas selfishness is bad because it drives humans nearer to their Fates. So the acid test of any religion, in theory, would be whether or not it drives individuals closer to their Fates or Destinies, rather than any dogma inherent in it. For example, a selfless Atheist whose life was devoted to helping others and bettering their lot would be more likely to get into Heaven than a true blue, dyed in the wool Baptist, and similarly for selfless Wiccans and the like. After all, if you look at people like Falwell and the like who preach a gospel of hatred and intolerance in the name of love, and compare them with, well, _anyone_ else, who's more likely to get into Heaven? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 05:38:42 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Reverb An interesting way to add flavor to the game. I like it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 05:42:31 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Day the Heavens stood still (was Archangel of Ethereals) - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > [That kind of religious practice serves Hell better > than it does Heaven.] > > Does it? Technically speaking I think Heaven considers > the current trend > toward enlightened skepticism creating a much better > religion that will > embody God's will than the "Fire and Brimstone" days of > the Past. I agree -- but there's a big difference between enlightened skepticism and the nominal religiosity to which I was referring. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 05:47:32 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion - --- Josh Moger wrote: > Loophole alert!: Voodoun can allow for divine essence to > be generated. As can Hinduism or any other religion classified as divine. And the religion behind the Dreamtime is monotheistic but still clearly Ethereal (as per The Marches). ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:01:34 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion - --- CsHoneyman@aol.com wrote: > IIRC, in Canon, the whole deal with the War is not > whether any particular > religion is divine or infernal based on its beliefs, but > how much it supports > selflessness/selfishness + Destiny/Fate That would certainly influence how Heaven sees it, but the acid test is really whether or not the religion sends Essence to Heaven or the Marches. > a selfless Atheist whose life was devoted to > helping others and bettering their lot would be more > likely to get into > Heaven than a true blue, dyed in the wool Baptist, and > similarly for selfless Wiccans and the like. OT1H, see "The Holiest Man on Earth" in S3 for an example of a righteous Atheist. OTOH, I disagree that "a true blue, dyed in the wool Baptist" is automatically less righteous than a righteous Atheist. Those who, like your example, preach intolerance are not conforming to the tenets of their professed faith and thus cannot be regarded as righteous. Those who truly adhere to the tenets of Chrisitanity -- in whatever denomination -- cannot in good faith be intolerant. This is a case where ethical conduct trumps professed beliefs; neither the Baptist nor the Atheist can claim the moral high ground here based solely on their belief systems. OTGH, this touches on the whole Destiny/Fate thing. Many Celestials might prefer that Humans be religious, but their evaluation of a given Mortal is likely to depend more on how much that individual leans toward Fate or Destiny than on what (s)he claims to believe in. Even the staunch religious types like Laurence and Khalid would prefer an ethical pagan to an unethical Christian -- but their treatment of that ethical person is sure to include attempts at "redemption." That, in fact, is what the plot seed I mentioned earlier is all about. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:02:06 +0100 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion From: "Michael Walton" > As can Hinduism or any other religion classified as > divine. And the religion behind the Dreamtime is > monotheistic but still clearly Ethereal (as per The Marches). God has had enough time to make a monotheistic worldview the most dominant one on earth and as he is the one true God (so to say) I wouldn't be surprised if he got essence from any monotheistic religion, even if it is pagan in orientation. If a pagan monotheistic believer prays than a part of his essence will go to God and part to the Ethereal. It makes me think of the concept of Stormbringer, the sword of Elric. For example, if an Aboriginal prays to a Dreamtime "creature", one third will go to God, one third to the Ethereal that rules the Dreamtime, and one third to the Dreamtime Ethereal the Aboriginal prayed too. This would keep God firmly at the top of the essence-chain, and at the same time it would prevent any lesser Ethereal of ever becoming stronger. Donato ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:26:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A shame Vapula has no Calabim... Mike Bruner wrote: > While that would add to the traditional Vapula "inventions even R&D > from Paranoia would never be crazy enough to make" feel, I think in > general nobody would give a device like this any sort of free will, > lest it start turning on them. But free will is a function of Celestial Forces, not Ethereal. True, with no Ethereal Forces, the gun won't have any memory, but if it's angry RIGHT NOW, at YOU, it could still turn on you. Classic VapuTech, in that regard. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:00:19 -0800 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion >For example, a selfless Atheist whose life was devoted to >helping others and bettering their lot would be more likely to get into >Heaven than a true blue, dyed in the wool Baptist, and similarly for selfless >Wiccans and the like. Ca we tak it as read that you meant to add "...who is basically selfish." to the line about Baptists? Just for clarification sake. Given that, I tend to agree with you. However, there are specific Arachangels who promote specific theological viewpoints, presumably because it is believed that those viewpoints will lead more humans to acting selflessly. And isn't that an interesting idea? Laurence supports Catholicism. Not because it is True (in the cosmic, check digit six with divine intervention (He is a Superior, they can do stuff like that once in a while)) sense, but because it is 'close enough' for his purposes. So, Catholicism is not the truth, but he is pretty enthused about converting everyone in sight (how enthused, depends on the campaign, really, but canon has him up there.) Checking the book...He was made a Malakite, so he does not have that pesky Seraphic tendency to watch out for. What if he did? - -- hammer and anvil fire sweat iron and breath forging destiny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:13:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Daiv wrote: > And isn't that an interesting idea? Laurence supports > Catholicism. Not because it is True (in the cosmic, check digit six > with divine intervention (He is a Superior, they can do stuff like > that once in a while)) sense, but because it is 'close enough' for > his purposes. I believe that, canonically, he is actually supposed to believe it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:19:16 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >Laurence - Christianity >Khalid - Islam >Novalis - Buddhism Quite frankly, while I can see Novalis supporting Buddhism, I can't see anything but an Elohite being its patron Archangel. Novalis is too ... attached to be Buddhist, imho. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:31:27 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >Michael Walton wrote: > > Hinduism and Buddhism are as different -- and as alike -- > > as Christianity and Judaism. > >No. Far more different. > > > That connection to the > > faith of the original converts would give the Hindu > > Ethereals an "in" with Buddhists. > >Except that you're wrong. See the GMG. ha ha ha yeah, man, you're WRONG. ha ha ha It's not enough that the GMG states otherwise, but you, Michael, are WRONG. ha ha ha, ah, David, you crack me up. Frankly, Michael, I agree with you, it should. Of course, the GMG says that it doesn't but . . . what's the point of having rules if not to be broken. In *my* campaign (which is RIGHT, sfaik), the Chinese Pantheon and Hindu pantheon /both/ have Celestial realms and their own Celestial Beings. WHY? Because I prefer to have my gameworld more rooted in the reality of the world's religions. Of course, IMC, "GOD" still watches over them and nudges here and there. (It's ineffable, don't ask me how God does it, it's not important (ie - it doesn't impact my players). - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:09:46 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion I should have pointed out in my post this morning that I didn't intend say that a Baptist would automatically be less righteous than anyone else, I was just providing an example. I probably should have been a little clearer, but I was in a rush to get to a class... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:12:54 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion In a message dated 16/01/02 17:14:36 GMT Standard Time, daiv@cruzio.com writes: > Ca we tak it as read that you meant to add "...who is > basically selfish." to the line about Baptists? > Just for clarification sake. Yeah... Like I said just now, I was kind of rushed at the time. First day back at uni... > Given that, I tend to agree with you. However, there are > specific Arachangels who promote specific theological viewpoints, > presumably because it is believed that those viewpoints will lead > more humans to acting selflessly. > And isn't that an interesting idea? Laurence supports > Catholicism. Not because it is True (in the cosmic, check digit six > with divine intervention (He is a Superior, they can do stuff like > that once in a while)) sense, but because it is 'close enough' for > his purposes. Right. There most probably isn't anything which is completely right as far as the AAs are concerned. Unless it's Bahai... LOL > So, Catholicism is not the truth, but he is pretty enthused > about converting everyone in sight (how enthused, depends on the > campaign, really, but canon has him up there.) Checking the book...He > was made a Malakite, so he does not have that pesky Seraphic tendency > to watch out for. > What if he did? Yoink... A Seraph Laurence... That is quite a scary idea... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:20:01 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion - --- Donato Ranzato wrote: > If a pagan monotheistic believer prays than a part of his > essence will go to > God and part to the Ethereal. [snip] if an > Aboriginal prays to a > Dreamtime "creature", one third will go to God, one third > to the Ethereal > that rules the Dreamtime, and one third to the Dreamtime > Ethereal the Aboriginal prayed too. An elegant solution which canon doesn't even hint at -- but it works fine in an individual campaign. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:21:23 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion - --- CsHoneyman@aol.com wrote: > I should have pointed out in my post this morning that I > didn't intend say > that a Baptist would automatically be less righteous than > anyone else, I was just providing an example. We've all stepped in it at some point here, no stress. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:43:30 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >--- Charles Glasgow wrote: > > Lucifer's Rebellion and the War between Heaven and > > Hell has been around > > for only twenty or so millennia. Michael has been > > around for all > > four-billion-plus years of Creation. One thing that's > > often forgotten about > > Michael is that he's spent over 99.9+% of his existence > > not killing anything. > > Bravo, Charles. That aspect of the Firstborn is too >often overlooked. Wait, when did Michael get his Word? It wasn't before the Fall was it? (recoils in horror at the thought) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:49:09 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: IN> Hats off to Moe... If you don't mind me putting the address here, Moe... Marxists in Heaven... http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/other/MarxistsHeaven.htm *sigh* I wish I had that kind of imagination... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:53:53 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >From: "Perry Lloyd" >Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:43:30 >>Bravo, Charles. That aspect of the Firstborn is too >>often overlooked. > >Wait, when did Michael get his Word? It wasn't before the Fall was it? >(recoils in horror at the thought) Michael got the Word of War via Divine Intervention, when he cast Lucifer down on the day of the Fall. Before then... well, it's apparently CDaU as to what his Word was or whether he had one or not, but it is known that he's: a) encompassed the concepts of struggle, competition, etc. for as long as he's been around b) always been the mightiest of the Host - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:01:55 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >> > Lucifer's Rebellion and the War between Heaven and >> > Hell has been around >> > for only twenty or so millennia. Michael has been >> > around for all >> > four-billion-plus years of Creation. One thing that's >> > often forgotten about >> > Michael is that he's spent over 99.9+% of his existence >> > not killing anything. >> >> Bravo, Charles. That aspect of the Firstborn is too >>often overlooked. > >Wait, when did Michael get his Word? It wasn't before the Fall was it? >(recoils in horror at the thought) > >-Perry snip Nay, I think the firstborn was a bit of an abberation in that he didn't recieve of a Word until after the Rebellion. Prior to that he was just the big brother Archangel that every other angel looked up to. Lucifer and others had words, but Michael didn't need a Word to hold power. Sides, when it comes down to it, who here believes that Michael defines his Word literally as a "blood/bullets/bombs" War? Josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:11:43 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> Archangels and time (was Re: Ethereal AA...) >From: "Josh Moger" >Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:01:55 -0500 [snip] >Sides, when it comes down to it, who here believes that Michael defines his >Word literally as a "blood/bullets/bombs" War? Encompasses such a thing in his Word? Definitely. Limits his focus to only such portions of his word? Not at all. Just to see what I'd get, I divided 22,000 years into 4 billion, and then took that percentage and multiplied it by a human lifespan to see how much of Michael's life has been occupied by the post-Fall era. The answer I got is that the span of time occupied by the War between Heaven and Hell is about as much vs. Michael's total lifespan as the last four hours or so would be to a 70 year old man. Of course, celestials perceive time differently than mortals -- *subjective* time, for them, appears to depend not on not how long something lasted, but on how much happened during that time. So the past eyeblink of 22 millennia or so has been far more event-filled than the few billion or so previous, natch. The Firstborn has been a primal archetype of competition and struggles to see who will triumph since eons before humanity even existed, much less since celestials started fighting each other over them. Whether it be a bloody battle, a tournament joust, a track-and-field event, a football game, a competitive exam, or a debating club, the word of War is there. Of course, the most important struggle in recent time is the War between Heaven and Hell, hence Michael's focusing the vast majority of his attention on this particular job of the moment. But unlike his Fallen adversary Baal, Michael has not (at least not, IMO) so narrowly constrained his mind so as to be able to see nothing else but the War Between Heaven & Hell. Indeed, this is why Michael's word is 'War', but Baal's is only "The War". - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:24:14 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion Daiv wrote: > And isn't that an interesting idea? Laurence supports > Catholicism. Not because it is True (in the cosmic, check digit six > with divine intervention (He is a Superior, they can do stuff like > that once in a while)) sense, but because it is 'close enough' for > his purposes. Actually, Laurence believes Catholicism is True. I.e., he believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and he also believes that God appoints the Pope and sometimes speak through him (when the Pope is speaking infallibly -- I can't remember the formal term). He's undoubtedly aware that some Catholic doctrines are incorrect (for example, purgatory), but he still believes it is the closest humans have come to the "correct" religion. Remember, he's not a Seraph. And some of the above issues are sufficiently ineffable that even the Seraph Archangels don't necessarily know the Truth. It's Dominic who supports the RCC because it's "close enough" for his purposes. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:08:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... - --- Josh Moger wrote: > Sides, when it comes down to it, who here believes that > Michael defines his > Word literally as a "blood/bullets/bombs" War? Exactly. Michael's Word embodies both friendly competition and struggle for the sake of righteousness. A shooting war supports his Word, but so does motocross (but the Angel of Motocross is probably an Ofanite of the Wind). ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:27:49 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Perry Lloyd wrote: > It's not enough that the GMG states otherwise, but you, Michael, are WRONG. > ha ha ha, ah, David, you crack me up. What else do you want me to say when someone makes statements that are factually incorrect? > Frankly, Michael, I agree with you, it should. Of course, the GMG says that > it doesn't but . . . what's the point of having rules if not to be broken. I never said anyone had to follow canon. > In *my* campaign (which is RIGHT, sfaik), the Chinese Pantheon and Hindu > pantheon /both/ have Celestial realms and their own Celestial Beings. WHY? > Because I prefer to have my gameworld more rooted in the reality of the > world's religions. I'm not sure how that makes it "more rooted in the reality of the world's religions," unless you believe the Hindu and Chinese pantheons both really exist, but in any case, IN takes a specific stance regarding the world's religions which obviously isn't going to agree with what many of those religions believe IRL. (The "reality" of many Christian sects, for example, is that no non-Christians can go to heaven, yet this is not true in IN canon.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:25:04 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Is there an Angel of Revolutions? That would come under the scope of Michael's word, wouldn't it? One of the Revelations books says, iirc, that his word also includes the overthrow of tyrants. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:02:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion David Edelstein wrote: > Actually, Laurence believes Catholicism is True. I.e., he believes in > the divinity of Jesus Christ, and he also believes that God appoints > the Pope and sometimes speak through him (when the Pope is speaking > infallibly -- I can't remember the formal term). The term is "ex cathedra," meaning "from the chair" meaning the papal throne. (A "cathedral" of a bishop or an Archangel is their official "seat," a very elaborated throne.) A Jesuit of my acquaintance pointed out that it is not always clear which papal pronouncements are ex cathedra, nor does the Pope himself necessarily know which ones they are... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:22:11 -0500 (EST) From: Eileen Catherine Krasowski Subject: Re: IN> Paganism as a Divine Religion > A Jesuit of my acquaintance pointed out that it is not always clear > which papal pronouncements are ex cathedra, nor does the Pope himself > necessarily know which ones they are... > > Earl > /de-lurking/ Actually, the Pope has to follow a very specific formula in order to invoke papal infallibility. Contrary to popular belief, only two proclamations in the whole history of the RCC have been declared infallible: that the Virgin Mary was immaculately conceived, and that she was bodily assumed. Eileen /re-lurking/ - -- "We can do no great things; only small things with great love." -Mother Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:31:28 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: IN> A quick question for you all... Is anyone else at college/university, or are y'all old folks? :o) I know that's not specifically a list topic, but I was just curious... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:45:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A quick question for you all... At 3:31 PM -0500 1/16/02, CsHoneyman@aol.com wrote: >Is anyone else at college/university, or are y'all old folks? :o) > >I know that's not specifically a list topic, but I was just curious... Tie it to IN, tie it to IN -- general gaming threads happen all over the place like puppies and kittens, but IN is right here... O:> - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:42:40 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> A quick question for you all... > Tie it to IN, tie it to IN -- general gaming threads happen all over > the place like puppies and kittens, but IN is right here... > > O:> OK... Then... Umm... Er... Aha! How many of you think that IN could use an Angel of Students? OK, I know that's lame... :o) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:51:12 -0500 From: "John J. Maurer, Esq." Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Glasgow" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 6:53 PM Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... > Michael got the Word of War via Divine Intervention, when he cast Lucifer > down on the day of the Fall. Before then... well, it's apparently CDaU as > to what his Word was or whether he had one or not, but it is known that > he's: Actually it is NOT Cannon Doubt and Uncertanty. That refers to things that are deliberately kept unknown/unknowable/undetermined by Steve Jackson and the writers. Examples include: The Nature of God, Jesus, The Upper Heavens, The Lower Hells and other such things. > a) encompassed the concepts of struggle, competition, etc. for as long as > he's been around Is this true? I don't recall any cannon mention of this pre-War in heaven > b) always been the mightiest of the Host Also something I didn't know. Fanboy-ism is as difficult with Michael as with Lillith it seems these days. While it may be nice to have a favorite superior and attribute phenominal cosmic powers to them, it is dangerous because not all your players may necessarily see it that way. The more you stretch Michael, the more you stunt other equally cool Archangels such as Lawrence, David and other War faction folk, and you really make the Anti-Michael (Novalis and Dominic come to mind) crowd look stupid by their sheer audacity to disagree with the One True Archangel. Speaks ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2515 ********************************