in_nomine-digest Friday, January 18 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2517 In this digest: Re: IN> A quick question for you all... IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim IN> Laurence's catholicism Re: IN> Malakim, born or made... (Re: David E and Laurence) Re: IN> Laurence's catholicism Re: IN> A quick question for you all... Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim Re: IN> A quick question for you all... IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Khalid's Choir IN> Angel of Nowhere... Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim Re: IN> A quick question for you all... Re: IN> A quick question for you all... Re: IN> OK, a couple of things... Re: IN> OK, a couple of things... Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Angel of Nowhere... Re: IN> Angel of Nowhere... IN> In opposition: Part 1 Grafitti Vs Vandalism IN> Re: Kyrios [was: OK, a couple of things] Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim RE: IN> Khalid's Choir IN> In opposition: Part 2 Grafitti Vs Vandalism - Nilaihah Re: IN> Laurence's catholicism Re: IN> In opposition: Part 1 Grafitti Vs Vandalism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:57:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A quick question for you all... At 3:16 PM +1000 1/17/02, Shane wrote: >That was one surreal dream - but then again, most of mine are like that. >(and as I said to myself when I woke up, how's a new-fledged angel start >with a Word anyway?) Maybe you weren't _really_ a new fledge, but were part-created from the Remnant Angel of Nowhere...? O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:07:52 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim Really guys I think Elohim is the perfect symbol of Faith. The very idea that something is true because there is acceptance of the evidence as true. And Khalid as a Malakim is....well IMHO rather stupid for the Final Trumpet If he couldn't fall thus negating the very point of his danger and one of the few really awesome things a player could affect the course of the war with their actions regarding The Archangel of Fanaticism because rather corny too as a Calabim etc instead of a Punisher _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:12:08 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Laurence's catholicism Actually I can see Laurence defending his Catholic beliefs better than anyone (and I attended 12 years of Catholic school and almost became a priest-still might) A:) Reincarnation "Reincarnation is a matter of the Soul assuming a new identity and destiny so that it is irrelevant that people know about past lives and existences...especially since they have no effect on their lives and so obviously were failures. Certainly it is different than OTHER interpretations of reincarnation which lead from the Catholic faith" B:) Pope Jesus made peter the rock in which the church was founded and each Pope bears the authority of the Church that God intended to convert the world in the Savior's name....the fact that they are mortal men prone to flaw is problematic true... But even Peter denied Jesus three times C:) Purgatory "A harmless Medieval Doctrine people are moving away from. It was furthemore a truth that led many to spiritual understanding of Earth and Hell" etc - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:35:22 -0500 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim, born or made... (Re: David E and Laurence) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > One wonders if, as the First Malakite, Uriel might have been the only > Archangel who could "trigger" the Malakite-shift in a willing Servitor... > Or maybe _sufficient_ stress on one of Purity's could make them Change > on their own. That'd be a nasty little surprise for some demon. Thought > that was a Mercurian you had pinned down by Hellsworn? Er, well, that > past tense is _so_ appropriate now. That would be a great campaign spin for the GMs out there to possibly include in their game (it being apocryphal). A campaign event that fills a non-Malakite angel with sufficient righteous rage that its choir shifts to a Virtue. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:31:09 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's catholicism From: "Charles Phipps" > > C:) Purgatory > > "A harmless Medieval Doctrine people are moving away from. It was furthemore > a truth that led many to spiritual understanding of Earth and Hell" One might even decide that it is a human misunderstanding of how those who achieve neither Destiny nor Fate have to repeat their lives on Earth, thus not earning Heaven but not being condemned to Hell. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:05:14 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> A quick question for you all... >>That was one surreal dream - but then again, most of mine are like that. >>(and as I said to myself when I woke up, how's a new-fledged angel start >>with a Word anyway?) > >Maybe you weren't _really_ a new fledge, but were part-created from >the Remnant Angel of Nowhere...? O:> > > snip Hmm... Perhaps that Word keeps getting given out, to angels and demons both, and the holder just sort of wanders off. A few, or a hundred, or what not, years later their heart shatters. I'm sure the respective Superior would be interested in finding out why, but Remnants are so hard to trace. Usually they let the matter drop after a few millennia or so (sooner for Demon Princes). Course, they never seem to notice the few servitors of Oblivion that are left among the Horde. And they never, ever seem to notice their smiles. And not once has any angel or demon heard the little whisper the former servitor speaks after hearing about the remnants' demise... "Soon." Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:18:38 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim - --- Charles Phipps wrote: > Really guys I think Elohim is the perfect symbol of > Faith. The very idea > that something is true because there is acceptance of the > evidence as true. But therein lies the problem. One doesn't need faith to believe in something for which there is evidence. Thus the conflict between Khalid's Word -- which is subjective by nature -- and Choir -- for which it is Dissonant to act subjectively. Khalid really should have been some other Choir (Seraph would've been my choice, but there are already plenty of Seraph AA's). ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:16:13 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A quick question for you all... From: "Josh Moger" > > Hmm... Perhaps that Word keeps getting given out, to angels and demons both, > and the holder just sort of wanders off. But where's he going to go with those bandages on his butt? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 05:48:04 -0500 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> Khalid's Choir Every now and then, the topic of what Choir to make Khalid comes up again, and it seems a lot of people think that Khalid shouldn't be an Elohite. Personally, I can't see Khalid being anything BUT an Elohite. Faith, as interpreted as Human belief, is something that must be approached with objectivity and reason, not blind obediance or fanatical belief. None of the other Choirs remotely approaches the kind of mindset necessary for the task of nuturing Human Belief, to be honest. The metaphysical web comic Master Zen-Dao Meow recently did a comic series exploring the concept of Religious thought amongst Humans, titled "God Metaphors". It's a very objective and detailed analysis of Humanity's Image of the Divinity, as I imagine an Elohite might perform. And while it's true that Khalid is primarily a Muslim Archangel, I suspect that following his "Fall of the Malakite" crisis of faith, he's become somewhat more supportive of ALL divine religions, and perhaps even less conventional forms of "Finding God". Master Zen-Dao Meow Dream Ditty #20: God Metaphors http://www.masterzdm.com/dd-020-001.html As for a Malakite or Cherub Archangel as "Defender of the Faith"... Doesn't Laurence fill the "Defender of Good" part already? - -Exit the LoneWolf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:59:19 +1300 From: "Terry Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir >Every now and then, the topic of what Choir to make Khalid comes up again, >and it seems a lot of people think that Khalid shouldn't be an Elohite. > >Personally, I can't see Khalid being anything BUT an Elohite. Faith, as >interpreted as Human belief, is something that must be approached with >objectivity and reason, not blind obediance or fanatical belief. But it very rarely is approched with such a logic. Indeed if you are to follow the logical conclusion of Faith itself you end up with the Faithful being deluded into thinking that ad-hoc hypothesises about the existance of God are perfectly acceptable. Faith is Belief and Belief requires someone who understands Humanity. Remember that Faith to an Angel is a hell of a lot different to Faith for a Mundane. Angels *know* God or at least the divine sphere exists so they take their Faith on fact a lot of the time. Michael certainly does, he was created by God, I'm sure Yves would also comment on his existance. Humans have to rely on blind belief in the face of overwhelming skepticism. My personal feeling is that Khalid's Word would be better served as a Mercurian or a Cherub. Both Choirs love humanity and spend enough time with humanity to understand the reasons why people have Faith and therefore can help to nurture that Faith. Terry. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:43:30 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: IN> Angel of Nowhere... On 17 Jan 2002, 15:57, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Maybe you weren't _really_ a new fledge, but were part-created from > the Remnant Angel of Nowhere...? O:> Oog. Creepy thought. (although I do get a weird mental image of "Heeere, Wordy Wordy Wordy. Heeere, new home, Wordy, come back...." :p) On 17 Jan 2002, 17:05, Josh Moger wrote: > Hmm... Perhaps that Word keeps getting given out, to angels and demons > both, and the holder just sort of wanders off. A few, or a hundred, or > what not, years later their heart shatters. Or can't be found anywhere. "Where'd its Heart go?" "Um, it couldn't have gone anywhere, we were watching it the whole time, the place is locked up tighter than a drum..." "So you're saying it went Nowhere, aren't you?" "Uh...." :) > I'm sure the respective Superior would be interested in finding out why, > but Remnants are so hard to trace. Usually they let the matter drop after > a few millennia or so (sooner for Demon Princes). > > Course, they never seem to notice the few servitors of Oblivion that are > left among the Horde. > > And they never, ever seem to notice their smiles. > > And not once has any angel or demon heard the little whisper the former > servitor speaks after hearing about the remnants' demise... > > "Soon." > > Josh *twitch* Though, it's the Word of Nowhere, not the Word of Oblivion. I think, Celestially speaking, that it's not the same thing. On the other hand, I'm not sure I know quite what you're imagining here - elaborate? :) Shane. (wondering if Angels of Nowhere frustrate Angels of Revelation) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:09:35 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Rolland Therrien wrote: > Faith, as > interpreted as Human belief, is something that must be approached with > objectivity and reason, not blind obediance or fanatical belief. Actually, Faith is based on emotion. It needn't be based on blind obedience or fanaticism, but it is inherently irrational (in the literal, rather than pejorative sense). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:15:13 -0500 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim > >--- Charles Phipps wrote: >> Really guys I think Elohim is the perfect symbol of >> Faith. The very idea >> that something is true because there is acceptance of the >> evidence as true. > > But therein lies the problem. One doesn't need faith to >believe in something for which there is evidence. Thus the >conflict between Khalid's Word -- which is subjective by >nature -- and Choir -- for which it is Dissonant to act >subjectively. Khalid really should have been some other >Choir (Seraph would've been my choice, but there are >already plenty of Seraph AA's). > snip Trouble with that is that Faith doesn't necessairly need Truth, it just needs belief. Now, Malakim are strongest in their beliefs, but that in of itself would keep a Malakite from being the holder of Faith, since the Malakite would feel his static nature causing friction from the different and possibly conflicting faiths of humanity. Mercurian, Kyriotate, Bright Lilim (Moe's version aside), Ofanim just don't seem... right for the holder of Faith. Grigori might possibly work and I'm really trying not to make this into a plug for Moe's site... Cherubim... well... I think they would have a problem much like Malakim, attuning to so many different and clashing groups of people of faith. Elohim, however, they are Balance. Khalid recognizes all Faith. All forms of Faith. Equally. They are all parts of the path that humanity follows to God. Faith thus can be held by Khalid without having to favor any one in particular (hence the dissonance and possible Fall due to his emphasis on one aspect of Faith during his long Outcast). Random musings... Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:45:12 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> A quick question for you all... At 03:42 PM 1/16/02 -0500, you wrote: > > Tie it to IN, tie it to IN -- general gaming threads happen all over > > the place like puppies and kittens, but IN is right here... > > > > O:> >OK... Then... Umm... Er... >Aha! >How many of you think that IN could use an Angel of Students? OK, I know >that's lame... :o) Don't know about students; I'm quite sure there's a Demon of Professors in service to Kobal :). I imagine the Angel of Students would have originally been under Raphael, although I'm not sure whether he/she would be currently under Christopher, Yves, or Litheroy (or maybe Jean). - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com Before you try to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:59:31 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> A quick question for you all... At 09:01 PM 1/16/02 +0000, you wrote: >Oops, i forgot to mention WHY david might have the Angel of Teachers. > >Well School is one of the first institutions we go in to and spend a long >time there. > >It is a place where we must form bonds and loyalties and at times work as >a group and so forth. And hey, all those little cliques and gangs just make it perfect Stone territory ;-). - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com Before you try to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 05:42:03 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> OK, a couple of things... - --- Ben Glickler wrote: > I actually had a lot of Laurence submissions to put it a > long time ago, but > my hard drive crashed about a year ago and I lost them > all. Do all ya'all > still have them? I'd have mine, but MY hard drive went down. I'll see if I can dig it up from among my horde of backup floppies. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 05:44:31 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> OK, a couple of things... - --- Josh Moger wrote: > Along this line, one thing that's always slightly > bothered me is the fact > that Kyriotates, one of my favorite choirs, completely > replaces a person's > mind, driving their host's conscious into the Marches, I had problems with that myself, though I admit that my objection to angelic possession is entirely an artifact of my religious education. OTOH, the idea of angels stepping into a person's life for the express purpose of making that life better makes sense. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 05:49:50 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir - --- David Edelstein wrote: > Actually, Faith is based on emotion. Not necessarily. It can also proceed from conviction or a conscious decision to believe rather than the feeling of wanting to believe. > It needn't be based on blind > obedience or fanaticism, but it is inherently irrational That's true. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 07:56:43 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Michael Walton wrote: > Not necessarily. It can also proceed from conviction or > a conscious decision to believe rather than the feeling of > wanting to believe. Umm...how is a conscious decision to believe different than a "feeling of wanting to believe," unless you're suggesting a lack of choice in the matter? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:56:15 +0000 From: "Fallen Seraph" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Nowhere... >From: "Shane" > > Course, they never seem to notice the few servitors of Oblivion that are > > left among the Horde. > > > > And they never, ever seem to notice their smiles. > > > > And not once has any angel or demon heard the little whisper the former > > servitor speaks after hearing about the remnants' demise... > > > > "Soon." > > > > Josh > >*twitch* > >Though, it's the Word of Nowhere, not the Word of Oblivion. I think, >Celestially speaking, that it's not the same thing. On the other hand, >I'm not sure I know quite what you're imagining here - elaborate? :) > Now might be a good time for me to go: My site has moved. its now http://www.geocities.com/archangel_nine/innomine.html amongst other things, you'll find a write up of mariel there. "tausend graue M䵳e mit blauen M䵳eh䵳ern" http://www.geocities.com/archangel_nine ICQ: 110193631 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:57:02 +0000 From: "Fallen Seraph" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Nowhere... >From: "Shane" > > Course, they never seem to notice the few servitors of Oblivion that are > > left among the Horde. > > > > And they never, ever seem to notice their smiles. > > > > And not once has any angel or demon heard the little whisper the former > > servitor speaks after hearing about the remnants' demise... > > > > "Soon." > > > > Josh > >*twitch* > >Though, it's the Word of Nowhere, not the Word of Oblivion. I think, >Celestially speaking, that it's not the same thing. On the other hand, >I'm not sure I know quite what you're imagining here - elaborate? :) > Now might be a good time for me to go: My site has moved. its now http://www.geocities.com/archangel_nine/innomine.html amongst other things, you'll find a write up of mariel there. "tausend graue M䵳e mit blauen M䵳eh䵳ern" http://www.geocities.com/archangel_nine ICQ: 110193631 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:03:30 +0000 From: "Fallen Seraph" Subject: IN> In opposition: Part 1 Grafitti Vs Vandalism Ok. this idea has been bouncing around inside my skull for a while, and it's finally escaped. (for good or ill) I'll be posting a couple of pairs of NPCs who have words that oppose each other in some fashion. the idea being to get your victi.. players caught in the crossfire. Thus I shall commence with the Demon of Vandalism. Aaroch Demon of Vandalism Calabite of Hardcore Corporeal: 4 Str: 11 Agi: 9 Ethereal: 3 Int: 5 Pre: 7 Celestial: 5 Wil: 10 Per: 10 Suggested Word Forces: 6 Vessel: Human male/5, Role: Juan Escardo, Store worker/3, Status/1 Skills: Drive/4, Fast Talk/2, Fighting(brawling/4), Ranged Weapon(pistol/5,Automatics/4), Escape/4, Lying/4 Small Weapon(Knife/4) Songs: Feedback/4, Entropy(Corp/4,Eth/1,Cel/3), Form(Cel/4), Shields(Corp/4,Celestial/5), Light(Cel/3), Attunements: Calabite of Hardcore, Overdrive. Demon of Vandalism Demon of Vandalism: Aaroch's resonance, when applied to property, causes it to be defaced in some way (grafitti, slogans, broken windows). This only causes disturbance if he is seen by anyone. He also knows instinctively where the nearest act of vandalism is taking place. Word-related rites: Deface a piece of property: +1 Encourage someone to deface property: +1 Start a rampage of property destruction involving 50+ people: +2 * * Shared with the Demon of Riots Aaroch has a problem. He feels that his Word, although inherantly destructive, would be better served under a different superior. he felt that way when he served Belial, he felt that way when he was placed under Furfur when he was still only Demon of hardcore, and he feels that way now. Neither of his superiors had really paid much attention to the Word of Vandalism, Belial prefering Arson, and Furfur considering it not Rock'n'Roll enough. He is currently keeping an eye on Scroud, one of Haagenti's underlings, and the Demon of Squalor. Scroud certainly has the potential to become a Superior (if he keeps his head down and doesn't get eaten by his current boss). In Aaroch's mind, Squalor would be a perfect place to put his loyalties, and the two words fit so nicely together too... Obviously, he's keeping it quiet. Furfur has the kind of paranoia about disloyalty that only the disloyal can have, and possibly the most violent temper of all the Princes, save perhaps Valefor. Aaroch knows with almost Balseraph-like conviction that his Word could be so much _more_, if only it was in an environment where it could be appreciated and supported. Aaroch has been around for a long time (nearly 5000 years). He has been encouraging the destruction and defacing of property for most of that time, from the messages left in the pyramids by tomb robbers, to modern day Car-burners, house wreckers and brick throwers. His are the vulgar slogans painted on the sides of buildings, and the tags on the back of bus seats, and the phone numbers scrawled in public toilets. He also sponsors those grafitti artists who like to perform their art on peoples property/cars/homes. This has brought him into regular conflict with Nilaihah, the Angel of Grafitti. He hates the Cherub and everything he stands for, Grafitti is NOT about art in his mind, but about the exercise of power and freedom. To demonstrate that you care nothing for the ownership of others and that you can deface whatever you like, when and wherever you like. This rivalry is part of what fuels Aaroch's need for power. He thinks he's strong enough to just beat the Angel as it stands, but he doesn't want to beat Nilaihah. He wants to destroy him utterly, with minimal damage to himself. For that he needs to be stronger, and to be stronger he needs to boost his word, and for that he needs a better suited Superior. Naturally, he is never seen without a pair of dark sunglasses... His usual corporeal vessel is an early 20's puerto rican male, although he uses his song of form to adapt it to suit his surroundings. He spends most of his time in the ghettos and slums of America's big cities, encouraging the further degradation of the living conditions there. Angel of Grafitti to follow. - -FallenSeraph. "tausend graue M䵳e mit blauen M䵳eh䵳ern" http://www.geocities.com/archangel_nine ICQ: 110193631 _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:24:45 -0500 (EST) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: IN> Re: Kyrios [was: OK, a couple of things] On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, Michael Walton wrote: > > --- Josh Moger wrote: > > Along this line, one thing that's always slightly > > bothered me is the fact > > that Kyriotates, one of my favorite choirs, completely > > replaces a person's > > mind, driving their host's conscious into the Marches, > > I had problems with that myself, though I admit that my > objection to angelic possession is entirely an artifact of > my religious education. OTOH, the idea of angels stepping > into a person's life for the express purpose of making that > life better makes sense. In many ways, though, pushing a host's mind into the Marches is a _kindness_, which, in my opinion, is a hallmark trait of Kyrios. For example: 1) Protection. Kyrios take over hosts for many different reasons. Sometimes this means the Kyrios have to deal with Hellish activities on Earth. If a person was aware of everything his body did and saw during this period, it might cause severe mental trauma. Even if it didn't, the person would have to live the rest of their life believing that no one is going to believe the things they saw and did when they weren't in control of their bodies. This can leave them in a state worse than when the Kyrio took over, which the dissonance condition forbids. So, it may be that the dissonance condition forces a reflex action that drives away the host's mind, so that the Kyrio can function without worrying about protecting the host's mental state. One might assume that the vast majority of the host's end up on Blandine's side of the Marches, where good dreams will smooth over the trauma of being ejected so suddenly. 2) Intervention. Sometimes a Kyrio will spot a human in trouble -- a human that is about to be in a car accident, or tortured, or in a burning building, etc. By possessing the host, the Kyrio can deal with the situation with angelic attributes/skills. But, if the situation is unavoidable, the Kyrio can at the very least prevent the host from feeling the pain of the incident. Afterwards, they can stick around to try and fix the damage so that the person has an easier time recovering. This can be dangerous for the angel, if the person dies while being possessed, but few self-respecting, selfless angels are going to stand idle while a human suffers needlessly. 3) Privacy. Kyrios know most humans have a stong aversion to the idea of something sharing their body. They know that most humans are repelled by the concept of someone or something being able to read their minds, the last bulwark of self and privacy. It's hard enough to find people willing to accept periods of blackouts and lost time; imagine how hard it would be if the person was aware something _else_ was in control of their body and there was no obvious means of resisting them, or preventing them from learning all their secrets. So the mind of the host is sent away so that the host doesn't have to deal with the fear of being invaded. Mind you, if a host is repeatedly ridden, it's more than likely that they will start putting things together. Which is a good reason for Kyrios to either shift hosts frequently or find a few which don't mind their bodies being borrowed for the greater good. In regard to the Kyrio of Destiny attunement, I believe that it still causes the hosts mind to be thrown into the Marches; it just lets the Kyrio 'copy' the information at the moment of possession so that the Kyrio can perform its duties more naturally, living the host's life without causing problems due to 'forgetfulness'. The information fades after the Kyrio leaves so that the host's mind is fully his/her own again (and so room is made available for the next host's memories). Basically, the atttument lets the Kyrio burrow the memories as well as the body -- both are to be returned latter. I could probably think of a few more reasons, but I have to get to work now. Ryan R. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:24:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Khalid's Choir Whenever "Faith" comes up as a topic, I like to remind people that it is NOT *just* believing something, or even persistently believing something even when it gets difficult. In the ancient and medieval world where the religions of IN began, and outside the specialized sphere of religion, faith meant primarily loyalty and trust. It just so happens that, if you transfer those virtues to the religious sphere and put different religions and irreligions in competition with one another, loyalty and trust loyalty and trust often express themselves as persistent and deliberate belief. Is khalid a former servitor of David's? It would fit. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:36:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim Michael Walton wrote: > But therein lies the problem. One doesn't need faith to > believe in something for which there is evidence. Well, actually, one can, and this addresses the claim that faith is a matter of emotion. It can be a matter of *resisting* emotion. Suppose you have some strongly-held belief. Now suppose you go spend a lot of time among people who reject that belief and hold it in contempt. It doesn't matter what; you can be an atheist among a lot of theists, a UFOlogist among a lot of disbelievers, a Muslim among a lot of Christians, or all vice versa. Without anyone offering new evidence or argument against your point of view, the sheer unpopularity of it will strongly tempt you (or at least many people) to shed yourself of that belief. Especially if you didn't come among them as a debater or a missionary. To hang onto your belief, including your own arguments and evidence for it, in the face of the social temptations to reject it, is an act of faith. And it isn't an easy or unimportant one. Suppose the Christian gospel to be true. The apostles, on hypothesis, met with the risen Christ, several times, in groups and singly. They had excellent evidence for the central truths of Christianity. But they are still called "faithful" for persisting in their missionary work in the face of ridicule and martyrdom. When I was in college, a professor of physics (who was also a minister, incidentally) had a trick: He'd back you up against a wall and bring a pendulum weighted with a bowling ball right up to your nose. Then he'd release it. If you had faith in Conservation of Energy, you could stand there and let the bowling ball swing back at your face, knowing it would stop before it hit you. You had excellent evidence and arguments and authority for that faith, but... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:51:44 +0100 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: IN> Defending Khalid as Elohim > Michael Walton wrote: > > > But therein lies the problem. One doesn't need faith to > > believe in something for which there is evidence. Okay, maybe this is just sematics, but as an example, do you know the earth is round or believe it based upon certain "evidence"? Do you believe or know that a man walked upon the moon? When is something faith and one is something knowledge? Do you believe or know that the universe is based upon mathematical formulae? Maybe Khalid "knows" Faith and God exists based upon evidence, and he has faith that this evidence is true (he is no Seraph so he can't know this for sure but as Dominic and Michael also "believe" in God he can safely assume that his "believes" are objective and not subjective). I hope the above makes sense............. Donato ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:01:35 -0500 From: "Brook Freeman" Subject: RE: IN> Khalid's Choir > Michael Walton wrote: > > Not necessarily. It can also proceed from conviction or > > a conscious decision to believe rather than the feeling of > > wanting to believe. > > Umm...how is a conscious decision to believe different than a "feeling > of wanting to believe," unless you're suggesting a lack of choice in the > matter? If you make a conscious decision to believe you say to yourself (for example), "I believe that the teachings of the Catholic Church are true and will follow them," without any specific feeling or emotion driving that decision. Just make yourself say it and repeat it over and over and hope that you actually come to believe later. A feeling of wanting to believe would be someone who feels a 'calling' to one faith. The person is still making the choice to follow that feeling but in the first instance the decision isn't precipitated by a specific calling. It is all a question of which comes first, the desire to believe or the decision to believe. Conviction would be someone who has been indoctrinated over a long period of time so that they can't point to the original moment when then began to believe in that faith. Brook ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:10:59 +0000 From: "Fallen Seraph" Subject: IN> In opposition: Part 2 Grafitti Vs Vandalism - Nilaihah Right. Heres part 2: Nilaihah, Angel of Grafitti Nilaihah Angel of Grafitti Cherub of Creation IST Stone Corporeal: 5 Str: 11 Agi: 9 Ethereal: 5 Int: 8 Pre: 12 Celestial: 4 Wil: 7 Per: 9 Suggested Word Forces: 4 Vessel: Human male/6 (African American) Role: Nial King, Professional Grafitti Artist/5, Status/3. Skills: Artistry(Can-Art/5,Painting/6),Drive/2, Fast Talk/4, Fighting(street/4), large weapon (Staff/6) Songs: Light(All/5), Thunder/4, Tongues/4, Charm(Corp/4,Celestial/3), Attraction(Corp/3,Celestial/6) Attunements: Cherub of Creation, Malakite of Creation, Cherub of Stone, Transubstantiation, Abracadabra, Angel of Grafitti Angel of Grafitti: At the penalties for using resonance through visual media, Nilaihah can attune himself to the artist of a piece of grafitti art by touching the artwork itself. Nilaihah is always aware of the locations of all grafitti within 100 yds. Word-Related Rites: Tag a previously un-tagged surface: +1 Get a piece of grafitti art comissioned by a city council: +2 As Nilaihah will happily tell you (at great length) Grafitti art is some of the most dynamic, vibrant and impressive expresions of creativity on the planet. That such art is done mainly by untrained artists, in poor light, and usually hurried makes it so much more wonderful. Nilaihah is concerned with promoting both the appreciation of grafitti as an art form, rather than as vandalism, and the culture surrounding it. When not active in Art or Council circles, Nilaihah likes to travel around, seeing new wall art and spreading suitable attitudes amongst grafitti artists (such as Never tag a persons house, Strive for excellence, and Don't get caught by The Man...). Nilaihah has seen a long service under Eli, and was most distressed when his Superior requested he go to serve David. None the less, he did his duty and has fitted remarkably well into the heirarchy of Stone. His fellow angels are generally of the opinion that he should concentrate his efforts more on building the comunity of grafitti artists rather than the art side of things, but grudgingly acknowledge his talents. Truthfully, switching Superiors has done nothing to alter his priorities. With the current Corporeal classification of grafitti as vandalism, and thus against the law Nilaihah has had more than the usual number of visits from Dominics triads, even for a Creationer. This does not overly worry him, since he is well used to talking to the authorities (Mundane and Celestial). Nilaihah's most immediate concern is to eliminate that thorn in his side, Aaroch, Demon of Vandalism. With him out of the way, Nilaihah is certain his life would be easier. Suspecting that Aaroch is the more powerful celestial (the Demonic interpretation of grafitti being a subsidiary word of vandalism) Nilaihah is looking to muster some support from his Stone friends. He is currently trying to find favour with Salem, Angel of Cities, and Kadel, Angel of Neighbourhood Pride. With these big guns backing him up, he's certain to annihilate the Calabite easily... Another pair next week... - -FallenSeraph "tausend graue M䵳e mit blauen M䵳eh䵳ern" http://www.geocities.com/archangel_nine ICQ: 110193631 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:16:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's catholicism From: "Charles Phipps" > C:) Purgatory > > "A harmless Medieval Doctrine people are moving away from. It was > furthemore a truth that led many to spiritual understanding of Earth > and Hell" Prodigal wrote: > One might even decide that it is a human misunderstanding of how > those who achieve neither Destiny nor Fate have to repeat their > lives on Earth, thus not earning Heaven but not being condemned > to Hell. Or it might be a description of the experience of those souls that spend some time in the Marches as Dreamshades but eventually gravitate to Heaven. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:33:47 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> In opposition: Part 1 Grafitti Vs Vandalism >From: "Fallen Seraph" >Aaroch >Demon of Vandalism >Calabite of Hardcore *chuckle* I like this guy. If scroud were ever to be elevated, then furfur might actually use this guy as a go between, or indeed give him outright to Squalor, and use him as a kind of -you scratch my back i'll scratch yours- token gift. Not that Aaroch would see it like that... Til another time, Cas In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2517 ********************************