in_nomine-digest Friday, January 25 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2525 In this digest: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> the War Re: IN> the War Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you canjudge... Re: IN> Books for Haagenti's stomach? Re: IN> The Deluge Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> The Deluge Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> The Deluge Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Books for Haagenti's stomach? Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) IN> The children of the lost choir Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:54:58 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) - --- Christopher Pipinou wrote: > After all, how many campaigns really get press > coverage? Not necessary if there are any people of color in the gaming group. The risk increases if the game is at a convention. > 'Course, were I the GM, I'd expect the player to head on > down to the > library before playing something that s/he wasn't > familiar with... and I'd do the same... Perfectly reasonable. Alas, not everyone is as careful as you are. That's why I like to see gaming supplements used to educate as well as entertain. Sure, that won't replace a trip to the library -- but it might inspire one. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:10:56 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Our spies report that at 01:52 PM 1/24/2002 -0800, Michael Walton wrote: >b) would you >trust the average White kid from the suburbs to know how to >play a Loa without offending African-Americans or Afro-Caribbeans? I cannot remain silent. (1) So the Japanese and Mexicans have the Loa thing cold, but the Germans, Finnish , Irish, Italians, English and French are out? What about the Jews? (2) But we wouldn't want to offend anyone by having something from their religion as a PC which is certain to be played badly by ignorant gamers. Angels, for example. So we give them many guidelines...except somehow, the game's portrayal of angels is still offensive to many people? Wait for it... Wait for it... Strangely, I have the notion that you would never cast aspersions on the ability of the average Black hanging out in said suburb. Remember, all the favorite '-ism's have two edges. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:08:00 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> the War > > War also encompasses the sheer act of living every day, a constant >struggle > > between life and death. Michael is supposed to be "He Who Is Like God", > >Um, does IN canon have his name as "He Who is Like God"? I asked >someone who knows ancient hebrew and has a Ph.D. in Old Testament, and >he assured me that the name translates out as "Who is Like God?" with a >question mark in real life. > >A little thing, true, but if I didn't mention this, my campaign for the >Word of Precision would be set back a bit. I believe you're right, he name does mean "Who is like God?" not, "He who is like God" my bad. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:20:25 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> the War >Perry's right. Baal's word is 'la guerre' as in (c'est la guerre). It's not >just the war between heaven and earth. It's people who think war is just an >excuse to commit atrocities. War for war's sake. > > >Contrast that with Michael, who (according to canon) favours soldiers who >fight so that one day the war will end. Thanks Jo. Baal should be the epitome of how War can be used to serve selfish ends, essentially. It's too bad that the Word-sharing thing gets in the way of two Superiors having the same name, what with the Word friction and all. That aside, I'd see Michael as being a much more likely candidate for The War, referring to the specific War he is fighting (against the Forces of Evil), whereas Baal might be better named/worded "War", representing War in general for any and all reasons (and any and all pleasure, profit, etc). - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:41:54 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... > > I mean socially, where do they fit in? > > > > "Wow, what was your destiny?" > > "Serving God directly to the best of my ability." > > "What did you do?" > > "I slashed the throats of 23 virgin girls either as > > they slept or after I > > had knocked them unconscious with chloroform (sp?)." > >Perry, I really do think that this is one of things >that the Brightness button is _for_... > >;) > >Moe okay, okay, I admit it; I forget about the Brightness Knob. (but, which end of the scales does this fall? The end at which even crazed psycho killers can get into Heaven, or the end at which Heaven is willing to forgive anyone who confesses his sins?) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:51:08 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >>To which the response from most Mercurians, or Servitors of Novalis (or >>even possibly Yves) might be... >> >>"So why didn't you just encourage them to go different paths?" > >"Sir, i am a killer, i maim and mutilate, i am not a social worker or a >civil servant." ROTF, laughing my tush off!!!! >Cas >*Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* oooh, I like. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager, modifier et imprimer vos photos pr馩r饳. http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:55:59 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >I still have to find it exceedingly difficult to believe that it was a >_Destiny_ to kill a large number of folks who had not yet achieved their >Destinies or descended to their Fates. They're Destiny may have been to die in their sleep, you know ... >Your campaign may vary - personally, I have a hard time believing Jack >the Ripper achieved his Destiny, irregardless of who his victims were. Jack the Ripper, for the record, is believed to have been left-handed, And, there is no evidence that I am aware of the purports him to have believed himself to brutally murdering those poor women in the name of God. And he's NOT who I was referring to (the character I was referring is very clearly RIGHT handed, thank you very much). - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager, modifier et imprimer vos photos pr馩r饳. http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:01:56 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you canjudge... Sean McCarthy said unto us: > Remember, all the favorite '-ism's have two edges. I haven't laughed so hard at something from the list in a while. Thank you. Good observations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:08:38 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Books for Haagenti's stomach? >For play balance? I'd say "No": it'd be a short >adventure otherwise (after all, who would WANT to be >in Haagenti's tummy?). One good handwave would be >that when Haagenti eats a physical vessel, the unlucky >appetizer would have to make a Will Roll at a hefty >penalty to avoid being sucked in, too. Thus, you'd >have a lot of celestial forms Inside with no way out. Ooooh, talk about a sub-culture. I wonder if they have their own pubs and restuarents and whatnot in there? Personally, I stick everyone in there in permanent Celestial form, to keep things interesting: "Oh, great, *another* Blackwing," said the Balseraph Tony. After getting his bearings, the newly arrived malakite looked up to see the Balseraph there in front of him. "Die monster!!!" screamed the King as he charged the Liar. A firm voice comes down as solidly as the hand attached to it, "Woah, there." The Malakite is spun around and finds himself face to face with a large Bear Cherub. "Before you go thinking it's clobbering time, maybe you'd better try and remember the last thing you remember before arriving here." Confused, the Honorbound angel replied, "Fighting Haagenti." "Exactly," said a red-skinned, pimply-horned, partly disgested Calabite as he climbed up a latter to join the others. "And if any of us are going to get out of here in one piece, we're going to have to work together." The Malakite looked at the Cherub. The Cherub looked at the Malakite. The Cherub shrugged and nodded. This would help to keep the characters aware of sheer madness of it all, I mean, demons working with angels? That like dogs and cats sleeping together!! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:19:14 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Deluge >Well, as it stands, I am combining Gurps In Nomine, Call of Cthulhu >(covered >in the wonderful Chtulhupunk), and Gurps Cabal. Depending on the amount of >time, money, and mental resources I will, more than likely put the campaign >into the Steampunk era...looking forward to some reworking with Jean, and >Valupa. sounds wonderful, wish I were playing ... >The magic system stymies me a bit. At least the ways to mold them togethor. >Should AA, or big Ethereals has access to hermetic magic? I don't think >they >should. It doesn't seem fair that even humans can use songs, but then the >way that the gurps conversion presesents it for canon, songs would just be >spells for humans. Or would it? Personally, I'd limit Song use by humans to soldiers and Hell created Undead. Songs are fast, quick miracles, whereas Heremetic magic can take frigging forever, be pretty unreliable and screw you over in the end. (Not that Hell can't.) >Cthuloid summoning/calling/banishing and the like can be cast by anyone >that >can read the individual spell. And isn't that just so darn convient for the >Elder gods? heck yeah, hence Heaven's persecution of those who do it, I imagine. >I will also be working on some major etherials. Cabal presents a much >greater viewpoint of the realms. I may place the Deepest of Marches inside >Briah. And have Briahtic Eikons with the same scope as Celelstial AA, or >DP. heck yeah! >The only question I have at that juncture is wheter to use the existing >gurps rules for spirits and how they appear on the Corporeal (Assiah) or >convert them using essence. ahhhh!!!! Essence is, imho, best reserved for Celestials and Humans. Though, to be fair, I'd grant Celestials the abilities to countermagic, or at least grant them levels of magic resistance. They later seems to bridge the gap >fairly well. >Finally any comments on the standard gurps advantage, Awareness. For >hermetic magi and the like from Cabal, would it be nearly the same as >Symphonic Awareness? Or a scaled down version. Thanks y'all. I'd allow my PCs who have Awareness to hear disturbances to the Symphony. I would, however, ONLY tell them how loud the disturbance is and from what direction, and certainly NOT any information about what kind of disturbance it is. "There it is again!" "What do you think it is?" "I have NO idea, but it's getting closer!" Meanwhile, a clumby cherub's "dinner plate juggling while on a unicycle" act is getting OUT OF CONTROL! and it's headed STRAIGHT FOR THE PCs!!! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ T鬩chargez MSN Explorer gratuitement ࠬ'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:35:47 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >cassandra benner wrote: > > >"So why didn't you just encourage them to go different paths?" > > > > "Sir, i am a killer, i maim and mutilate, i am not a social worker or a> >civil servant." > > >"Then since you're not a Malakite, you get to go to Hell." > >-David Um, no? Your free pass to Heaven isn't based on sins anymore, it's based on selfishness/selflessness. Doesn't matter *what* it is you're doing, it only matters what your *motivations* are - selfless ones versus selfish ones. Remember the Liber Servitorum with its list of sample Destinies and Fatesin the back? (p126) Destinies: "... kill a dozen people in their sleep ... commit suicide ..." both murder and suicide are sins in, I believe, the three BIG Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), but apparently are okay for entry into Heaven in In Nomine canon. So ... don't see what not being a Malakite has to do with it. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:40:31 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... > Ooh! Ooh! What about a Habbalah with a Discord of >Selfless/6? > >Would he be an Elohite??? > >Brian naw, he'd just be very confused ... - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ T鬩chargez MSN Explorer gratuitement ࠬ'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:42:30 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... > Ooh! Ooh! What about a Habbalah with a Discord of >Selfless/6? > >Would he be an Elohite??? > >Brian naw, he'd just be very confused ... actually ... no, he wouldn't. Because his Selflessness is imposed upopn him by the Discord, he isn't choosing to be selfless. Since it's not an act of Free Will ... he remains a Demon. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ T鬩chargez MSN Explorer gratuitement ࠬ'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:42:38 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... > Ooh! Ooh! What about a Habbalah with a Discord of >Selfless/6? > >Would he be an Elohite??? > >Brian actually ... no, he wouldn't. Because his Selflessness is imposed upopn him by the Discord, he isn't choosing to be selfless. Since it's not an act of Free Will ... he remains a Demon. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:02:24 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) > > After all, how many campaigns really get press > > coverage? > > Not necessary if there are any people of color in the >gaming group. The risk increases if the game is at a >convention. Aww, man ... you guys got it ALL swrewed up. It's not about the skin color, it's about the sub-culture. That white kid you be talking about right there? You saying how he don't how to play a Loa 'cause he's white?? That ain't it, that ain't it at all. He can't play a Loa 'cause he ain't got the cultural background. Let's see that same white kid try and play a character from Mythic Greece; he's gunna have the same damn problem, man. He ain't got the background to do right. He'd probably be all stuck in his judeo-christian mindset and not even know that Pride was considered a virtue by the ancient Greeks! Hell; he'd probably get all the names of the famous people wrong too, and I'd bet you anything that poor kid can't even read Greek anyway. Shxx, it ain't about the color, fool; it's about the subculture. Get wid the program, shxx. (my apologies at my pathetic attempts to speak in the Afro-american subculture's linguistic niche) - -Perry, one damn funny-looking white kid perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Rejoignez le plus grand service de messagerie au monde avec MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com/fr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:25:57 -0500 From: Christopher Pipinou Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:55:59 "Perry Lloyd" writes: > > They're Destiny may have been to die in their sleep, you know ... > I suppose this is the case. I rather think that if the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep, that it's a rather poor life. But I suppose that, again, falls to your individual campaign to determine and ponder. > And he's NOT who I was referring to (the character I was referring is very > clearly RIGHT handed, thank you very much). I wasn't aware there was a specific character you were targeting; I just plucked the first serial killer I could think of out of my mind. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:35:43 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Michael Walton wrote: > Quite so. But I'd still like to see some more detailed > treatment of the pantheons and/or the cultures that spawned > them Not enough room. just because a)_somebody_ out there will want to play > a spirit from one pantheon or another, and b) would you > trust the average White kid from the suburbs to know how to > play a Loa without offending African-Americans or Afro-Caribbeans? I doubt very many African-Americans know much more than the average white kid about loas. As for "offending" actual practitioners, if we can take liberties with Judeo-Christian mythology, why is screwing with Voudon a problem? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:46:40 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Perry Lloyd wrote: > Aww, man ... you guys got it ALL swrewed up. It's not about the skin color, > it's about the sub-culture. That white kid you be talking about right > there? You saying how he don't how to play a Loa 'cause he's white?? That > ain't it, that ain't it at all. He can't play a Loa 'cause he ain't got the > cultural background. This sounds like the same inane argument people use to claim that men can't play female characters and vice versa. In which case any game involving non-human PCs should certainly be tossed.... > (my apologies at my pathetic attempts to speak in the Afro-american > subculture's linguistic niche) You should apologize, yes. That was asinine and insulting. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:48:11 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> The Deluge >In the "canon" for GIN, we intended that Songs are Songs, and spells are >spells. Humans can use spells -- and with appropriate Power Investiture >and Symphonic Awareness, Songs -- while celestials and ethereals use >Songs only. Hmmmmm? To what extent is this? I own the Corporeal Player's guide, and I see the rituals listed therein, but what's this about spells? I have a player or two that would be very interested if magic (even Essence-powered magic) were allowed in the game... it seemed pretty off-limits from my reading of the section on "Sorcery" (p. 174-5), except for the very limited selection of rituals listed. By the way, question on canon: presumably, damned souls can never, never leave Hell by any normal means. But "You Are Here" lists damned souls as among the actors at The Camp in the Marches -- error, or what? William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:49:45 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edelstein" To: Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:46 PM Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) > Perry Lloyd wrote: > > Aww, man ... you guys got it ALL swrewed up. It's not about the skin color, > > it's about the sub-culture. That white kid you be talking about right > > there? You saying how he don't how to play a Loa 'cause he's white?? That > > ain't it, that ain't it at all. He can't play a Loa 'cause he ain't got the > > cultural background. > This sounds like the same inane argument people use to claim that men > can't play female characters and vice versa. It was supposed to. Perry was /agreeing/ with your position, he was just doing so via the fine art of satire. > In which case any game involving non-human PCs should > certainly be tossed.... - -- Chuckg (who is at present playing a 19-year old female vampire in the college roleplaying club's V:tM event) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:53:14 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... I thought the way it worked was that your Destiny is the best you can do, and your Fate is the worse you can do. For instance, the rulebook gives Ernest Hemingway as an example of somebody who both rose to his Destiny and fell to his Fate. His Destiny was to create brilliant novels, that was the best he could have done. His Fate was to totally ruin his life and finally commit suicide. The way I see Destiny and Fate in In Nomine is that it's not how much sins you do or how selfless you are, but how much better you leave the world, and how much you strive to be the best you can be (take the greatest advantage of the life the Symphony has given you). Doesn't matter *what* it is you're doing, >it only >matters what your *motivations* are - selfless ones versus selfish ones. > - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:04:12 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Deluge "William J. Keith" wrote: > Hmmmmm? To what extent is this? I own the Corporeal Player's guide, and I > see the rituals listed therein, but what's this about spells? I have a > player or two that would be very interested if magic (even Essence-powered > magic) were allowed in the game... it seemed pretty off-limits from my > reading of the section on "Sorcery" (p. 174-5), except for the very limited > selection of rituals listed. Remember that GURPS IN is designed mostly for cross-genre games, or games where the GM wants to include other stuff from outside the IN canon (like magic). If you want to adhere strictly to IN canon, then there is NO MAGIC. > By the way, question on canon: presumably, damned souls can never, never > leave Hell by any normal means. But "You Are Here" lists damned souls as > among the actors at The Camp in the Marches -- error, or what? It's that "by any normal means" loophole... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:43:56 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Perry Lloyd wrote: > Um, no? Your free pass to Heaven isn't based on sins anymore, it's based on > selfishness/selflessness. Doesn't matter *what* it is you're doing, it only > matters what your *motivations* are - selfless ones versus selfish ones. Not entirely, as previously discussed under "Delusional maniacs believing they were serving God by committing mass murder." Plus one could also allow for a certain amount of responsibility for exploring one's attitudes and the consequences thereof, depending on how dark you want your world to be. IOW, just because you've decided to blindly accept the notion that blowing people up is God's will, for example, doesn't mean that doing so makes you selfess. > Remember the Liber Servitorum with its list of sample Destinies and Fatesin > the back? (p126) > > Destinies: > "... kill a dozen people in their sleep ... commit suicide ..." Yeah...some of those were really dumb. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:40:29 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) From: "David Edelstein" > > As for "offending" actual practitioners, if we can > take liberties with Judeo-Christian mythology, why is screwing with > Voudon a problem? Voodoo dolls, perhaps? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:14:18 -0500 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) At 05:29 PM 1/24/02 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:52:16 -0800 (PST) Michael Walton > writes: > > Quite so. But I'd still like to see some more detailed > > treatment of the pantheons and/or the cultures that spawned > > them just because a)_somebody_ out there will want to play > > a spirit from one pantheon or another, and b) would you > > trust the average White kid from the suburbs to know how to > > play a Loa without offending African-Americans or Afro-Caribbeans? > >Without offering offense... I'd say, if it works within that campaign, go >for it. After all, how many campaigns really get press coverage? If >your group's conception of a Loa works well enough that the GM and >players are all reasonably okay with it, why worry if it's not precisely >accurate? Besides, it's not like the rest of IN isn't set up to offend a bunch of white people already ("Christ the Son of God? Darned if we know..."); why not go multicultural with the offensiveness? ;) - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com Before you try to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:07:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Oh, I want to see more detailed treatments as well! > However, I don't > think the EPG is quite the place to go into it at the > moment. There > are simply too many gods and spirits around... However, > if it sells well, 32-pagers, yadda yadda. O:> That I can see. OK, everybody, go out and buy more IN books (I just got GIN, so nyah!)! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:15:00 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... - --- Sean McCarthy wrote: > I cannot remain silent. Nor would I want you to -- that's why it's called discourse. > (1) So the Japanese and Mexicans have the Loa > thing cold, but the > Germans, Finnish , Irish, Italians, English and French > are out? What about the Jews? I used one example, but there are many that apply. > (2) But we wouldn't want to offend anyone by > having something from > their religion as a PC which is certain to be played > badly by ignorant > gamers. Angels, for example. So we give them many > guidelines...except > somehow, the game's portrayal of angels is still > offensive to many people? One change at a time... we can't cure all the world's ills at once. > Strangely, I have the notion that you would > never cast aspersions > on the ability of the average Black hanging out in said > suburb. You're quite wrong. But with the rarity of people of color in gaming, the situation rarely comes up. However, I can say that at least one African-American gamer (that being yours truly) shies away from playing Asian or Native American PC's because of a concern with getting it right. I'm on more solid ground with Middle Easterners (having lived there for several years) and Africans (having known several). The point is, anyone stepping out of their culture into the role of a PC of a different race/gender/generation/what have you ought to at least enough research to avoid being offensive. If supplements for IN or any other game can help with that process, I'm all for it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:23:13 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) - --- David Edelstein wrote: > I doubt very many African-Americans know much more than > the average white kid about loas. Man, have you ever got that right. Annoys me to no end, sometimes. You'd think people would care more about their own heritage... > As for "offending" actual practitioners Actually, I wasn't thinking of offending actual practitioners so much as simply offending any [insert ethnic group here] who might happen to witness an offensive portrayal. My point is, people with little or no information will tend to fall back on potentially offensive stereotypes. Imagine how people who've been conditioned to be hypersensitive by generations of discrimination would react to that. Of course, the problem is not limited to Whites; that's just the group that it's most likely to happen with where gaming in general and IN in particular is concerned. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:26:57 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) - --- Mike Bruner wrote: > Besides, it's not like the rest of IN isn't set up to > offend a bunch of > white people already ("Christ the Son of God? Darned if > we know..."); why > not go multicultural with the offensiveness? ;) LOL! ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:30:31 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Books for Haagenti's stomach? - --- Perry Lloyd wrote: > Ooooh, talk about a sub-culture. I wonder if they have > their own pubs and restuarents and whatnot in there? Hmmm... "Where everybody knows your Name..." ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 06:35:46 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) - --- Perry Lloyd wrote: > Aww, man ... you guys got it ALL swrewed up. It's not > about the skin color, it's about the sub-culture. THANK YOU! Somebody got the point! > Let's see that same white kid try and play a character > from Mythic Greece Well, I don't foresee that any ancient Greeks will crash a convention and cry "discrimination" any time soon, so there's a bit more leeway there. But the kid should still do some research IMO. > (my apologies at my pathetic attempts to speak in the > Afro-american subculture's linguistic niche) I'll let it slide this once. But we don't all talk that way -- homey. };> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:41:20 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> The children of the lost choir Ok its Question time... The nephilim. The nefilim etc. I have only the core rule book, and i dont have access to that at the moment due to the nature of moving house (well a freind is and he has all the books packed away). What is the Official ruling on the Children of the Grigori, and thier children. What Books contain info reguarding the Nephilim. (other that gurps). I know i posted some seeds a long time ago about nephilim/soldiers of hell, but i cant find them any more and the players have decided to start hunting the grigori and the children of them and so forth. Im not looking for Home rules, just the Canon that there is on them. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:58:37 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Michael Walton wrote: > Man, have you ever got that right. Annoys me to no end, > sometimes. You'd think people would care more about their > own heritage... What makes you think Voudon is part of the "heritage" of most African-Americans? It's a synthesis of a few scattered African beliefs with stuff developed by Caribbean slaves. Most African-Americans have little or no connection to those cultures. > Actually, I wasn't thinking of offending actual > practitioners so much as simply offending any [insert > ethnic group here] who might happen to witness an offensive > portrayal. Given that anyone might be offended by any portrayal, so what? I mean, if people were doing a minstrel show that's one thing, but I don't see how screwing with Voudon is any worse than the treatment ALL religions (including Christianity) frequently get in RPGs. I remember one of the authors of FGU's late, lamented "Bushido" writing how he regretted the way he treated Shinto in that game, quantifying the kami with game stats. I can see his point, but.....well, if you're going to play a game based on the presumption that certain beliefs are literally true, then those beliefs have to be represented somehow in the game. And by doing so, you're inevitably going to create a representation that some actual believers will disagree with. Like I pointed out earlier, quite a few Christians would find In Nomine offensive. > My point is, people with little or no > information will tend to fall back on potentially offensive > stereotypes. Imagine how people who've been conditioned to > be hypersensitive by generations of discrimination would > react to that. I couldn't care less how people conditioned to be hypersensitive would react. I only care how reasonable people would react. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2525 ********************************