in_nomine-digest Friday, January 25 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2526 In this digest: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> The children of the lost choir Re: IN> The children of the lost choir Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> The Word of Secrets (was Shedite Princes) Re: IN> The Deluge Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> A few questions... Re: IN> The Deluge Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... Re: IN> The Deluge Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> Books for Haagenti's stomach? Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> A few questions... Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... IN> In Nomine Champions (was: In Nomine/DC cross-over) Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Re: IN> Race and IN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:06:43 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) In a message dated 25/01/02 14:59:28 GMT Standard Time, amadan@amadan.org writes: > What makes you think Voudon is part of the "heritage" of most > African-Americans? It's a synthesis of a few scattered African beliefs > with stuff developed by Caribbean slaves. Most African-Americans have > little or no connection to those cultures. He's right, basically. Vodun, Santeria, Macombe et al are essentially very much minority beliefs amongst mainland Blacks (Not putting African-American or whatever because I can't be bothered to type it every time). It's also part of the religious make-up of Brazil, and some of the more Hispanic bits of the Caribbean, iirc. >Like I pointed out earlier, quite a few > Christians would find In Nomine offensive. Right. Most players of IN would be, I should think, either moderately religious, or nonbelievers (like myself) who don't actually care too much. Besides, I've seen enough wildly varying denominations of xianity to know that sticking to any _one_ of them is going to offend most of the rest. This way, _everyone_ gets offended... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:11:05 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Michael Walton wrote: > However, I > can say that at least one African-American gamer (that > being yours truly) shies away from playing Asian or Native > American PC's because of a concern with getting it right. > I'm on more solid ground with Middle Easterners (having > lived there for several years) and Africans (having known > several). Well, that's a relief. I lived in Korea for a year and a half, so it's nice to know I'm qualified to play Asians. Oh, and I know several black people, so I'm qualified to play blacks too. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:15:15 EST From: CsHoneyman@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Right... How can anyone say that any other person is /not/qualified to play an Asian or Black or a Hispanic or whatever without stereotyping minority groups? Not all people within a certain ethnic group act the same way. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 07:36:39 -0800 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> The children of the lost choir >What Books contain info reguarding the Nephilim. >(other that gurps). Their write-up appears in the Corporeal Player's Guide, perhaps the In Nomine book which I found the most generally useful and interesting (it gives information on a lot of the gray areas of In Nomine and adds a lot of really interesting ideas and character types: ghosts, sorcerers, nephilim, and prophets, oh my!). - -Bevan - ------- "We've always been under siege. The 'Real World' keeps shoving us into corners -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:50:39 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The children of the lost choir cassandra benner wrote: > What is the Official ruling on the Children of the Grigori, and thier > children. > > What Books contain info reguarding the Nephilim. > (other that gurps). The Corporeal Player's Guide. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:59:52 -0500 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) > Besides, it's not like the rest of IN isn't set up to offend a bunch of > white people already ("Christ the Son of God? Darned if we know..."); why > not go multicultural with the offensiveness? ;) I'm of the opinion IN isn't offensive *enough*. Not in the sense of saying/showing "Your religion eats dog feces", but by challenging deeply and dearly held beliefs. IN has the potential to make people really stop and think about their belief systems. For instance, in my game it has recently become known that Eli is the Second Coming of Christ. As every single player in my game is a Christian (as am I), this is a difficult and troubling concept -- but no less troubling than it must have been to the ancient Jews when some carpenter's son shows up, claims to be the Son of God, and states that God's salvation is for EVERYONE, not just for the chosen people. Talk about offensive! My players are struggling with this concept, both personally and through their characters. They are thinking, and as a result they are growing. Remember when RPGs encouraged the DM to invent details of his campaign world, rather than spoon-feed like they do today? In closing, I would like to offer a few unofficial rules of IN. 1. No whining. Every religion gets screwed over some way in canon. 2. If you don't like it, change it in your game. Fortunately, this will require you to think. 3. Be biased. IN is a game where a GM's bias is necessary. I'd love to play in a game run by an orthodox Jew, m'self. - -- Casca "Every great truth begins as a blasphemy." -- Oscar Wilde, I think. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:10:21 -0000 From: "Farseer" Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Does that mean I can play an Arab as I lived there when I was little? I have GMed a game where one player played a Vodoun priestess. I spent a large part of the game advising her on the "correct" way to do so and ended up lending her GURPS Voodoo just to get her pointing in the right direction. However the entire group enjoyed the game and liked the character. Yes we probably would have offended a particoner of Vodoun, but then again I can find IN a pain at times as I like the pagan deities and would love more on them. However if run into one at the moment my character will probably try and convert them, well either that or run and hide behind the Malakim again. (G) Sorry for the ramble, what I am trying (badly) to say is that I don't think anyone should be told "you can't play that" unless and only unless someone in the group (or observers if any) objects. Emma - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edelstein" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:11 PM Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... > Michael Walton wrote: > > However, I > > can say that at least one African-American gamer (that > > being yours truly) shies away from playing Asian or Native > > American PC's because of a concern with getting it right. > > I'm on more solid ground with Middle Easterners (having > > lived there for several years) and Africans (having known > > several). > > Well, that's a relief. I lived in Korea for a year and a half, so it's > nice to know I'm qualified to play Asians. Oh, and I know several black > people, so I'm qualified to play blacks too. > > -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:30:23 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) - --- David Edelstein wrote: > What makes you think Voudon is part of the "heritage" of > most > African-Americans? It's a synthesis of a few scattered > African beliefs > with stuff developed by Caribbean slaves. Most > African-Americans have > little or no connection to those cultures. Yeah, thanks to slavery. None of us know what tribes we came from -- and we all have the blood of multiple tribes (again thanks to slavery). Which means that lack of connection to those cultures is mainly an issue of lack of knowledge. Also remember that those Caribbean slaves were the descendents of Africans and are thus related (however distantly) to African-Americans. > I don't see > how screwing with Voudon is any worse than the treatment > ALL religions > (including Christianity) frequently get in RPGs. More clarification, then; I'm not talking about the portrayal in the game (though care should be taken there, of course) but the portrayal by individual players. I certainly don't mean to imply that game companies are in any way responsible for that, but if one is in a position to help the situation it's generally a good idea to do so. IN books like the 32-pagers that Beth mentioned would be a good way to get some information out. > I couldn't care less how people conditioned to be > hypersensitive would > react. I only care how reasonable people would react. I've been in neighborhoods where that attitude could literally get you killed. Because of that I prefer to avoid things that I know will offend people. YMMV. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:32:32 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... - --- David Edelstein wrote: > Well, that's a relief. I lived in Korea for a year and a > half, so it's > nice to know I'm qualified to play Asians. Oh, and I know > several black > people, so I'm qualified to play blacks too. Ah, sarcasm. But joking aside, your statements may well be true. At least you know enough to avoid obvious insults. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:37:14 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... - --- CsHoneyman@aol.com wrote: > How can anyone say that any other person is > /not/qualified to play an Asian > or Black or a Hispanic or whatever without stereotyping > minority groups? Not > all people within a certain ethnic group act the same way. Heh. I'm living proof of that -- most Blacks are not gamers. However, there are certain common threads that many (even most) members of a given ethnic group would find offensive. I don't talk jive and I can't stand rap, but use a certain "N" word and I'm up on my feet ready for a fight right next to the G's from the 'hood. The whole point of this thread isn't to say that you shouldn't play characters of other races if you're White, it's to say that anyone playing a character of another race, gender or whatever ought to do enough research to avoid offensive stereotypes. That applies to everyone equally, not just Whites. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:40:11 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) - --- Eric Bertish wrote: > I'm of the opinion IN isn't offensive *enough*. Not in > the sense of > saying/showing "Your religion eats dog feces", but by > challenging deeply and > dearly held beliefs. IN has the potential to make people > really stop and think about their belief systems. That would be a good thing indeed. Kudos to you. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:45:04 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... - --- Farseer wrote: > Does that mean I can play an Arab as I lived there when I > was little? Hey, you don't need my permission. I know I didn't ask for yours. > I have GMed a game where one player played a Vodoun > priestess. I spent a > large part of the game advising her on the "correct" way > to do so and ended > up lending her GURPS Voodoo just to get her pointing in > the right direction. [snip] what I am trying (badly) to say is > that I don't think > anyone should be told "you can't play that" unless and > only unless someone > in the group (or observers if any) objects. I'm not advocating telling anyone that they can't play somehting. I'm not even advocating telling someone how to play something. What you did -- giving the player some research material and letting her learn on her own -- is exactly the sort of thing that I'd like to see more of. Not that I consider game supplements authoritative works by any means, but those books often have bibliographies. Now, a series of 32-pagers on the various Ethereal pantheons complete with lists of books for further reading would be a wonderful thing as far as I'm concerned. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:11:28 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) >I doubt very many African-Americans know much more than the average >white kid about loas. As for "offending" actual practitioners, if we can >take liberties with Judeo-Christian mythology, why is screwing with >Voudon a problem? > >-David For once I have to completely agree with David. While I could make the arguement that a gaming company in (mostly white Christian America) has more rights to muck with the Abrahamic religions than it does with other religions (sort of that "I'm X so I'm more allowed to make fun of X than a non-X individual thing), but ...if we're going to liberties with multiple world religions, why not all of them? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:28:16 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Word of Secrets (was Shedite Princes) >After the GM Screen, this gets resolved. Gebbeleth is presumed finally dead; >Alaemon is the sole holder of the Word, and finally the Prince. And the secret >that Gebbeleth lived long after Hell had thought him dead remains hidden. (This is me! Answering questions! Two months later! For no good reason! Whoo hoo!) Gebbeleth isn't 'presumed' finally dead. It's definitive in Sup4 that he is -- or if he's alive it's in a fashion heretofor unknown. His rites have stopped working, you see, which means he's no longer supporting the Word even in absentia. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Impudite of Secrets (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:37:25 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Deluge > >In the "canon" for GIN, we intended that Songs are Songs, and spells are > >spells. Humans can use spells -- and with appropriate Power Investiture > >and Symphonic Awareness, Songs -- while celestials and ethereals use > >Songs only. > >Hmmmmm? To what extent is this? I own the Corporeal Player's guide, and I >see the rituals listed therein, but what's this about spells? GURPS Basic Set, GURPS Magic, GURPS Grimoire, GURPS Technomancer, GURPS Cabal ... good stuff, good times I have a >player or two that would be very interested if magic (even Essence-powered >magic) were allowed in the game... it seemed pretty off-limits from my >reading of the section on "Sorcery" (p. 174-5), except for the very limited >selection of rituals listed. GIN opens up the possibilities immensely. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:39:31 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Look, Michael, there's an easy enough answer to this problem, at least in this specific instance. You apparently know something about the topic: so, write it up, trim it to a 32-page equivalent and see if SJG will buy it. If they don't, find a handy webpage and post it there. That way, the IN community will have something to work with whenever Voudonista/Santeria elements come up with in a game ... and you get at least some egoboo from being 'Loa Guy'. Win-win situation all around. :) Moe "Heresy Boy" Lane ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 01/01/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:33:42 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> A few questions... At 12:14 PM +0800 12/14/01, Manny Nepomuceno wrote: > > Mariel was a Habbalah? Makatiel was definately a Habbalah. >Meserach was a Djinn I think. > >Agreed on Mariel, although I can't cite a canonical reference. >Unless I'm mistaken it's just generally agreed that she was a >Habbalite, although it might be stated in the IPG that she was one. More long-past e-mail. Mariel hasn't been canonically defined. There's been a good case made that she's a Habbalite, but there's also been a good case made that she's a Djinn -- which informed the Tattered writeup of her. (In part, I think Djinn makes more sense because I think the Angel of Memory makes more sense as a Cherub instead of an Elohite. But that's me.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Impudite of Secrets (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:54:17 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The Deluge >"William J. Keith" wrote: > > Hmmmmm? To what extent is this? I own the Corporeal Player's guide, >and I > > see the rituals listed therein, but what's this about spells? I have a > > player or two that would be very interested if magic (even >Essence-powered > > magic) were allowed in the game... it seemed pretty off-limits from my > > reading of the section on "Sorcery" (p. 174-5), except for the very >limited > > selection of rituals listed. > >Remember that GURPS IN is designed mostly for cross-genre games, or >games where the GM wants to include other stuff from outside the IN >canon (like magic). If you want to adhere strictly to IN canon, then >there is NO MAGIC. In name alone, SFAIK. Magic is that which cannot be explained, (or rather : The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.) so those "strange powers" that the elusive and mysterious Children of the Grigori ("unwitting sorcerors" (pIN106)) might be a form of Sorcery? or unconscious Song use ... hrm ... sorcery : Use of supernatural power over others through the assistance of spirits; witchcraft. okay, that makes some sense in the IN context (definitions courtesy of http://www.dictionary.com) If I were to introduce "spell use" (NOT magic, spell use!) into In Nomine, I'd base them along the lines of Songs, but without the Corp/Ethe/Cele version "twist." - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Rejoignez le plus grand service de messagerie au monde avec MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com/fr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:04:12 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AA and an interesting thought... >Perry Lloyd wrote: > > Um, no? Your free pass to Heaven isn't based on sins anymore, it's >based on > > selfishness/selflessness. Doesn't matter *what* it is you're doing, it >only > > matters what your *motivations* are - selfless ones versus selfish ones. > >Not entirely, as previously discussed under "Delusional maniacs >believing they were serving God by committing mass murder." > >Plus one could also allow for a certain amount of responsibility for >exploring one's attitudes and the consequences thereof, depending on how >dark you want your world to be. IOW, just because you've decided to >blindly accept the notion that blowing people up is God's will, for >example, doesn't mean that doing so makes you selfess. - -sigh- What is and isn't God's will doesn't seem to matter anymore, if Destiny is wholly based on motivation (ie. selfishness/selflessness). But, I'm wrong by canon, pIN67 ... -sigh- "brightest goal a person can hope to accomplish" I suppose that the judge of this the GM. gotcha. so, does the selfishness/selfless thing even enter into it? > > Remember the Liber Servitorum with its list of sample Destinies and >Fatesin > > the back? (p126) > > > > Destinies: > > "... kill a dozen people in their sleep ... commit suicide ..." > >Yeah...some of those were really dumb. I like (Destinies) "land on Mars" and "save the world form a meteor" or (Fates) "become president" and "buy a toy company" heh. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager, modifier et imprimer vos photos pr馩r饳. http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:40:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Deluge At 10:48 PM -0500 1/24/02, William J. Keith wrote: >>In the "canon" for GIN, we intended that Songs are Songs, and spells are >>spells. Humans can use spells -- and with appropriate Power Investiture >>and Symphonic Awareness, Songs -- while celestials and ethereals use >>Songs only. > >Hmmmmm? To what extent is this? I own the Corporeal Player's guide, and I >see the rituals listed therein, but what's this about spells? Spells are non-canon. In an In Nomine game, they don't exist. However, on p. GIN213, there's a box about how to handle bringing magic and psi into a game. (Why? Because we all know that GURPS players tend to be mad crossoverists. C.f. GURPS IOU.) >By the way, question on canon: presumably, damned souls can never, never >leave Hell by any normal means. But "You Are Here" lists damned souls as >among the actors at The Camp in the Marches -- error, or what? They didn't get there via normal means -- a damned soul could, most likely, be taken through Beleth's Tower and shipped anywhere Beleth blessed well pleases... And there are always _rumors_.... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:20:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... At 11:39 AM -0800 1/25/02, Maurice Lane wrote: >Look, Michael, there's an easy enough answer to this >problem, at least in this specific instance. You >apparently know something about the topic: so, write >it up, trim it to a 32-page equivalent and see if SJG >will buy it. If they don't, find a handy webpage and >post it there. Or, trim down into a series of more-generic chunks (or easily-adaptable chunks), and mosy on over to www.sjgames.com/pyramid and check out their writer's guidelines... Noting, of course, that when it comes to writing things, it's always good to have a few things to point to for your resume. *grin* - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:16:30 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Books for Haagenti's stomach? >Michael Walton spake >--- Perry Lloyd wrote: > > Ooooh, talk about a sub-culture. I wonder if they have > > their own pubs and restuarents and whatnot in there? > > Hmmm... "Where everybody knows your Name..." I dunno, not if Mariel's running the place ... - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager, modifier et imprimer vos photos pr馩r饳. http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:24:58 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) >--- Perry Lloyd wrote: > > Aww, man ... you guys got it ALL swrewed up. It's not > > about the skin color, it's about the sub-culture. > > THANK YOU! Somebody got the point! quite. I have friends who would seem white if it weren't for the color of their skin, and vice versa. It's not the pigment, it's the little grey cells, the inculturation. > > Let's see that same white kid try and play a character > > from Mythic Greece > > Well, I don't foresee that any ancient Greeks will crash >a convention and cry "discrimination" any time soon, so >there's a bit more leeway there. But the kid should still >do some research IMO. *nodnod* > > (my apologies at my pathetic attempts to speak in the > > Afro-american subculture's linguistic niche) > > I'll let it slide this once. But we don't all talk that >way -- homey. };> I'm down with it. :) ... and stuff. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:36:38 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) Michael Walton wrote: > Yeah, thanks to slavery. None of us know what tribes we > came from -- and we all have the blood of multiple tribes > (again thanks to slavery). Which means that lack of > connection to those cultures is mainly an issue of lack of > knowledge. Also remember that those Caribbean slaves were > the descendents of Africans and are thus related (however > distantly) to African-Americans. I have just as much "cultural connection" to druidism, then, since I have Irish and Scots ancestry (among others). > More clarification, then; I'm not talking about the > portrayal in the game (though care should be taken there, > of course) but the portrayal by individual players. I > certainly don't mean to imply that game companies are in > any way responsible for that, but if one is in a position > to help the situation it's generally a good idea to do so. I don't think game companies should be worrying about whether or not players are "insulting" in the way they play a game. > I've been in neighborhoods where that attitude could > literally get you killed. I try to stay out of neighborhoods where people get killed over slights. > Because of that I prefer to > avoid things that I know will offend people. YMMV. I didn't say I don't try to avoid offending people. OTOH, if I know someone will be offended by something because they're a hypersensitive fool, I'll avoid that person instead. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:38:42 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A few questions... Whistling in the Dark wrote: > More long-past e-mail. Mariel hasn't been canonically defined. > There's been a good case made that she's a Habbalite, but there's > also been a good case made that she's a Djinn -- which informed the > Tattered writeup of her. > > (In part, I think Djinn makes more sense because I think the Angel of > Memory makes more sense as a Cherub instead of an Elohite. But that's > me.) I could swear she was defined as a Djinn in some book. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:16:21 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... >Michael Walton wrote: > > However, I > > can say that at least one African-American gamer (that > > being yours truly) shies away from playing Asian or Native > > American PC's because of a concern with getting it right. > > I'm on more solid ground with Middle Easterners (having > > lived there for several years) and Africans (having known > > several). > >Well, that's a relief. I lived in Korea for a year and a half, so it's >nice to know I'm qualified to play Asians. Oh, and I know several black >people, so I'm qualified to play blacks too. > >-David But wait, David! There's more! You're *also* qualified to roleplay white women, pets, -and- furniture!!! And for just a few experiences more, you can choose to become qualified to roleplay any of the following : Seraph Cherub Ofanite Elohite Malakim Kyriotate Mercurian Balseraph Djinn Calabite Haballah Lilim Shedite Impudite and/or Pacadite!!! apply today!! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:25:07 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> In Nomine Champions (was: In Nomine/DC cross-over) At 8:43 PM -0800 1/21/02, Vaughn Romero wrote: >3. But despite all your brawn, you will never kill or be killed by a demon >as DCU is set in a Nerf gun world. It's real hard to feel you are wrath of >God when you carrying a Flaming Nerf Sword of Justice!(tm) Well, that *is* the medium. >4. Angels are nothing special. There are plenty of "mortals" who can clean >your clock without breaking a sweat. Let's just say that Superman has more >than 6 forces. That's putting me in a frightening frame of mind. The frame of mind where a basically nice, unassuming person decides it's time to write up In Nomine abilities in Champions.... It wouldn't be hard, really. The Perception-based Resonances would be the hardest, and they're doable. (The easiest would be Calabim with their Ranged Killing Attack, of course. It'd be a seriously nasty one, too, what with the limitations for that backlash....) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Mercurian of Revelation (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:31:26 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The EPG (was Re: the War) >1. No whining. Every religion gets screwed over some way in canon. >2. If you don't like it, change it in your game. Fortunately, this will >require you to think. >3. Be biased. IN is a game where a GM's bias is necessary. I'd love to play >in a game run by an orthodox Jew, m'self. Hell yeah! That'd be awesome. I like these rules, actually, and today I was flipping through my copy of the GMG and found the suggestions for Playing by the Book ... cool stuff, very cool. And now I have to look for the Nephallim stuff in the CPG. whee!!! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos est le moyen le plus simple de partager et imprimer vos photos : http://photos.msn.fr/Support/WorldWide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:45:28 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... Our spies report that at 10:37 AM 1/25/2002 -0800, Michael Walton wrote: >The whole >point of this thread isn't to say that you shouldn't play >characters of other races if you're White, it's to say that >anyone playing a character of another race, gender or >whatever ought to do enough research to avoid offensive >stereotypes. Offensive stereotypes, like the White Kid in the Suburbs who doesn't know or care about the way people from other cultures act? Yes, we should really try to avoid those. I raise again the point that if you play In Nomine *as published* you will offend people who believe in the whole Heaven/Hell/Angels/Demons thing. You will offend the ones who are especially sensitive to 'incorrect' portrayals of things they believe in. Why then should an In Nomine supplement on another culture magically be different? I would also note we have various people who follow some Abrahamic faith on this list and their presence and past comments tell me that the game isn't necessarily inherently offensive as it stands... You must be an American, right? Several people much more worldly than myself (having been born in and/or lived for years in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Israel, Japan, England and other places I've never been) have told me as I discussed this with them that this obsession with defending the cultures of others from perceived slights is apparently an American thing. Although I don't do it. Ack! Darn stereotypes again. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:46:39 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... > I'm not advocating telling anyone that they can't play >somehting. I'm not even advocating telling someone how to >play something. What you did -- giving the player some >research material and letting her learn on her own -- is >exactly the sort of thing that I'd like to see more of. >Not that I consider game supplements authoritative works by >any means, but those books often have bibliographies. Now, >a series of 32-pagers on the various Ethereal pantheons >complete with lists of books for further reading would be a >wonderful thing as far as I'm concerned. there was a Hunter book released that essentially just talked about different (possible) monster/hunter activities around the globe. Now, we have You Are Here, but nothing the really spans the Globe, with actual specific suggestions appropriate to each locale. I dunno. a 32-pager about China in the IN world, I'd buy it. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Rejoignez le plus grand service de messagerie au monde avec MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com/fr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:07:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Yeah! Those White people suck! Skin color is how you can judge... - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Look, Michael, there's an easy enough answer to this > problem, at least in this specific instance. You > apparently know something about the topic: so, write > it up, trim it to a 32-page equivalent and see if SJG > will buy it. I'll compromise -- if the 32-pp. splatbook thing looks like it's going to happen, I'll send in a proposal. > If they don't, find a handy webpage and > post it there. Not ruled out yet, but I'll wait and see what develops. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 14:18:36 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Race and IN - --- Sean McCarthy wrote: > Offensive stereotypes, like the White Kid in the > Suburbs who > doesn't know or care about the way people from other > cultures act? Hmmm... you have a point, though that was meant merely as an example. It applies equally well to the Black kid from the inner city who plays White characters as banjo-playing hicks. > Why then should an In > Nomine supplement on another culture magically be > different? As said before, I only advocate that deliberate or negligent offensiveness be avoided. Someone else posted that rpg's in general (and IN specifically) is a good avenue for prodding such sensitive areas and getting people to think about them. I agree with that. In fact, that's what we've been doing today; how many of you devoted this much thought to the issue of race in IN before this thread (relax, it's a rhetorical question)? > I would also note we have various people who > follow some Abrahamic > faith on this list and their presence and past comments > tell me that the > game isn't necessarily inherently offensive as it > stands... Quite so. > You must be an American, right? Several people > much more worldly > than myself (having been born in and/or lived for years > in Pakistan, > Afghanistan, Malaysia, Israel, Japan, England and other > places I've never > been) have told me as I discussed this with them that > this obsession with > defending the cultures of others from perceived slights > is apparently an American thing. A direct result of living in a place that has so many different cultures in it. Just as racially homogeneous societies don't have racial unrest, culturally homogeneous socieities don't have issues with multiculturalism. The United States isn't unique in having to deal with such issues, but we are, IMO, more deliberate about it than other countries. That's magnified in military brats like myself; when your elementary education includes a class in Host Nation Culture, you can't help but be aware of such issues. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 Existential fast food slogan: "Why's the beef?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2526 ********************************