in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 19 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2549 In this digest: Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels Re: IN> Jordi (rant) IN> Celestial Olympics Re: IN> Celestial Olympics IN> Consider Animals IN> Catholic Dogma (was Jordi) IN> Gloriana IN> if only ... (shedim) Re: IN> Jordi revisited IN> The Lord of the Undead Re: IN> Jordi (rant) Re: IN> Jordi revisited IN> Kung Fu Jesus IN> Kung Fu Jesus Re: IN> Jordi RE: IN> Jordi (rant) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:30:10 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels on 2/18/02 10:55 PM, David Edelstein at amadan@amadan.org wrote: > As has been pointed out, a lot of the more nutjobby Archangels are the > products of Derek Pearcy's original vision. A vision I have never > considered sacred. I wouldn't say, "sacred," either. But I will say that a lot of what drew me to IN draws upon the elements introduced or implemented by Mr. Pearcy. > He wrote Nicole. He intended Khalid to be a fanatical bomb-throwing > Muslim, the Archangel of Rag-Headed Terrorists. He also once said that > Dominic was the kind of Archangel who wouldn't think twice about > leveling an apartment building and killing all human occupants, if it > would slay one demon. He probably did intend Jordi to be a nutjob who'd > happily exterminate mankind, too. > All of those Archangels have been "softened" since then, and so will > Jordi, I should imagine, when/if he ever gets an expanded writeup. I suppose so. Remember some months back, when there were a great many posts asking how anyone could run a demonic chronicle? The more "softened" the side of Heaven becomes, the more difficult it becomes to do so. This may not be a concern to any of you, but it makes running IN less fun for me, as I enjoy mixed or demonic chronicles as much as angelic ones. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:39:43 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Schneiderman" To: Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 10:30 PM Subject: Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels > I suppose so. Remember some months back, when there were a great many posts > asking how anyone could run a demonic chronicle? Get a copy of Abberant: Teragen. If you want demons as rational anarchists vs. a jackbooted Heaven, there's Divis Mal vs. Caestus Pax and the Utopia Project. If you want demons as utterly selfish bastards who want to do what they want to whom they want and think that humans are barely-evolved monkeys who don't matter at all... well, there's the rest of the Teragen. Who'd ever have thought that a superhero RPG would have so much IN-useful atmosphere? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:56:24 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels From: "Jason Schneiderman" > > This may not be a concern to any of you, but it makes > running IN less fun for me, as I enjoy mixed or > demonic chronicles as much as angelic ones. Mixed games are still possible, even at higher contrast. The trick is finding a hook that allows the group to avoid trying to kill each other. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:00:59 -0500 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> "Evil" Archangels on 2/18/02 11:39 PM, Charles Glasgow at cglasgow@hotmail.com wrote: > >> I suppose so. Remember some months back, when there were a great many >> posts asking how anyone could run a demonic chronicle? > > Get a copy of Abberant: Teragen. I'm familiar with the work. ABERRANT is another one of those games that I like that others don't seem to take to. :) > If you want demons as rational anarchists > vs. a jackbooted Heaven, there's Divis Mal vs. Caestus Pax and the Utopia > Project. If you want demons as utterly selfish bastards who want to do > what they want to whom they want and think that humans are barely-evolved > monkeys who don't matter at all... well, there's the rest of the Teragen. As appealing as both of those are as extremes, my games are a little less high contrast than that. > Who'd ever have thought that a superhero RPG would have so much IN-useful > atmosphere? *raises hand* IN NOMINE has a lot of superhero elements to it. Can't wait for SAS to come out in full so that I can adapt it for IN use, among other things. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:04:42 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Jordi (rant) - --- David Edelstein wrote: > In fairness, about the only thing we have on Jordi > is his basic rulebook > writeup. Yeah, which is a pain. How can I do my Heretical Biotech Jordi if I don't have an expanded writeup to fold, spindle and mutilate? :) More seriously, I'm with David E. on this one. There's very little evidence in canon that Jordi wants to wipe out all of humanity: true, he's presented that way by a lot of noncanonical material (including, admittedly, some of mine), but that isn't really apropos. I'm certain that Jordi will be made properly complex when it comes time for his expanded writeup... Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 01/01/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:10:30 -0800 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: IN> Celestial Olympics This idea is shamelessly inspired by/stolen from Amanda Kilgore's fine work on the Celestial Hockey League. The Olympic trivia contained within is stolen from various news web sites. Fluffy ill-conceived ideas are my own. Let the games begin! - -- Vaughn * * * HISTORY The earthly Olympic Games were revived in 1896 to promote understanding and friendship among nations. That same year, the new Angel of the Olympic Games approached Yves and proposed that Heaven could benefit from its own event to promote understanding and friendship. Yves proposed the idea to the Seraphim Council, which was well-received, and the Council quickly agreed to call its first Celestial Olympics to coincide with the earthly Olympics games of 1900. The four year interim, it was decided, would provide time for the newly-founded Heavenly Olympic Committee (HOC) to clarifying the rules that would govern the Celestial Games. As it turned out, Heaven needed every moment of those four years to appease some of the more *ahem* robustly opinionated, detail-oriented, and thorough members of the Host. Like its earthly brother, the HOC chooses the program of events, the location of the games, and the standards and metrics to be used for the competition. Each Cathedral in Heaven has its own Regional Olympic Committee (ROC) that oversees the celestial athletes representing the Cathedral. The hosting ROC is also responsible for providing an Olympic Village for the athletes to live in during the games. The opening ceremony of the Celestial Olympics is a grand affair modeled after its earthly inspiration. The event is presided over by the Superior whose cathedral is hosting the games, and the ceremony always starts with the parade of cathedrals around the chosen "stadium". By tradition, the parade is led by Destiny who was the first host of the games. After the parade, the celestial athletes take their Olympic oath, the Olympic torch is lit*(1), and the host Superior declares the games open. ELIGIBILITY OF PARTICIPATION The Celestial Olympics are technically open to any celestial being living in Heaven, but certain games have restrictions that limit participation to particular groups. Also, by ruling of the HOC and the Seraphim Council, Grigori and demons are forbidden to participate in the games, although they may watch (of course getting to and surviving in Heaven to see the games is another story). Each ROC also has its own criteria for eligibility for its own athletes. Saints usually compete for their current Superior, but they can also join the blessed souls who usually compete for humanity as a whole. LOCATION OF THE GAMES All games are held within the confines of Heaven in the "stadium" provided by the hosting cathedral. The "stadium" can be any area of competition the hosting cathedral chooses as long as it is (1) accessible to all athletes and the public and (2) the area meets the conditions specified to play the intended games. Yes, there are large sections of the Heavenly Library devoted exclusively to describing the required location conditions for each game - now you know why it took four years just to start the games. No, the creation of Olympic venues and the creation of Olympic game rules and conditions are not yet Celestial Olympic events, but check again in another couple of years. GAMES Despite the name, the Celestial Olympics includes events originating from all three realms: Corporeal, Ethereal, and Celestial. The Games are also further broken down into angel-only, soul-only*(2), and mixed events as well as medal-contending and exhibition-only events. By tradition, Superiors only compete in events where other Superiors can oppose them. Corporeal The Corporeal Games include every human sport ever imagined, plus a whole slough of sports that humans and angels dreamed up in the Nerf physics realm of Heaven. In addition, there are animal and insect "sports" enough to boggle the mind. Ethereal The Ethereal Games are well, mostly games such as cards, chess, cross-word puzzles, battleship, quake, etc. but can also include any mental work out such as proofs, spelling bees, or standardized tests. Celestial The Celestial games are a test of celestial powers and as such are mostly for angels, but some soldiers and saints participate as well. OLYMPIC SNAPSHOTS 1900 Destiny hosts the first Celestial Olympics _outside_ the Library. Yves has Eli create a "stadium" to match the ancient site at Olympia. While all Archangels send athletes to participate, the event is dominated by members of the War faction. 1916 Stone hosts the games, but most of the War faction declines to attend citing the conflict on Earth as a higher priority. 1924 Trade hosts the games, and the Celestial games adopt the Winter events*(3). 1948 Last Celestial Olympics Eli's Creation crew participated in the parade of Cathedrals. 1964 Flowers hosts the games in the Garden of Eden version 2. Many, many souls and angels indulge in Creationer rites. 1968 Lightning hosts the games at the launching site. Jean announces that humanity will land on the moon within a year. 1984 Trade hosts the games for a second time.*(4) 2002 The Sword is hosting the current 2002 Corporeal Winter-based portion of the Celestial Olympics. Laurence denies (again) that he originated Mormonism. INSIGHTS * Has Laurence ever lost the Superior Fencing event? * Do animal souls volunteer for mixed events such as Equestrian, dog sled, etc.? * Jordi's Seraphim always win the swimming events. * Windies would have a hard time waiting for the starting gun to sound in race events. * Destiny athletes already know if they'll get a gold medal, just not when. * Are Cherubim ever allowed to attune to the ball? And in a related note, do athletes of War get to destroy the ball to unnerve the opposing Cherubim? * You cannot Abracadabra the golf ball where you want it to be! * The Dream Team is not (just) a basketball team. * For some reason, Dominic always wins the Seraphim slam dunk contest (exhibition game only) * Dominic and his Servitors also own the Seraphim resonance competition. * Flowers are 3-time Gold medal Hockey champs. "Go out there and win one for Mom." * Hockey: It's a darn good thing Malakim can't Fall. "Must...not...suffer...dishonorable...enforcer...to...medal...""You! Malakite! Into the penalty box!" NOTES *(1) When the earthly Olympics added the torch ceremony to the opening events in 1934, the celestial Olympics adopted it as well. *(2) Jordi was adamant that events had to include animals souls as well as human souls. In practice, human souls and animal souls are rarely in direct competition with one another except as mixed teams against other human/animal teams. *(3) On earth, the 1924 International Winter Sports Week are held. These games are later recognized as the first Olympic Winter Games in 1926. *(4) And on Earth, Los Angeles becomes the first city to turn a profit hosting the Olympics. Coincidence? Not when I'm writing the history, baby! - - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - This is not the sig you're looking for. Move along, move along... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:18:03 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Olympics - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vaughn Romero" To: "In Nomine Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:10 PM Subject: IN> Celestial Olympics > * Has Laurence ever lost the Superior Fencing event? Michael tied with him once just to prove that he could do it, and abstained from entering from then on. (Coincidentally, Michael's performance for the rest of that Olympics was somewhat sub-par... as if somebody had blown a *lot* of Essence on one event...) Of course, the sword-vs-axe exhibition events end the same way every time. The betting isn't on who will win, but on how long it will take Laurence to lose. (Jean did, however, compute that the average time-to-eating-the-mat was increasing with every go-around... which is why they both keep doing it.) - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:17:55 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Consider Animals Okay I'm sorry but I have to ressurect an old topic here...please tell me what you think. This is meant BTW as a Light Jordi. *** And the Lord spoke unto Man "I am thy shepard." Which of course implies that humanity are sheep but no one really wants to get into that. Personally speaking quite a few among the Heavenly Host think I'm inbetween a piece of snot and the thing on the disgusting ends of shoe but very few realize that both of those things are actually very necessary for the world's survival. It's humans this and humans that every day, 9-5, 7 days a week with no breaks save from Novalis and Eli who understand what it's about really... By the way what really really really really annoys me is Angels comming up to me and saying they UNDERSTAND what I'm about and try to convince me that I shouldn't support people throwing blood on fur coats and killing whalers. It's enough to make me annoyed sometimes and really as a Kyriotate I have enough point of view ability to understand all perspectives makes me being annoyed a very rare thing. Are human beings special? Certainly they are because they have managed to do what no other race in the Symphony has yet to be able to do in accomplish a consistant 99.99999 on ratio of being awakened to one's spirits and thus able to go to Heaven or Hell. In 20,000 B.C. I get a lot of flak for considering wiping out humanity but few people ever bother to ask my reasons. Very well my divinely ascended monkeys (this is oddly enough not meant as an insult) the reason comes down to Lucifer and fire. The legend and image of Lucifer as Prometheus is an enduring paralell and one that Jean has been making up for since time begin but has anyone ever asked the question WHY God forbid angels to interfere with humanity early on. In my humble opinion is was because God knew upfront that giving humanity fire was the worst mistake that we ever made and has since haunted mankind since. I'm not bitter by the way about humanity and it's environment issues or about the Archangels spending 99% of our resources on dealing with humanity....I'm exasperated and annoyed on occasion but I know that every Archangel on some level (I'm not a Seraph you know and this isn't Heaven) realizes that they're making up for Lucifer's mistake ever since. Charles Darwin who is one of my most prestigeous and enjoyable saints coined the term of Natural Selection and to this day like Albert Einstein and other scientists from Atomic theory jumping everytime someone pops a paper bag around them he's annoyed about the truth he discovered for humanity and it's effects. Survival of the Fittest is about self-improvement leading to improvement of one's race and that is the law God has enforced on man. Every time a person learns something knew he must pass it on and slowly every surely more humans will accept this as fact until mankind itself does. This isn't unique to mankind but is the basis for everything...even Angels I think. Humanity however was done a great wrong when Lucifer and Jean gave it fire and it's a sin that's been repeated over and over by angels. Andrephalus taught man about courting, Baal taught them how to use weapons, Vephar taught human beings how to Sail well before they reached their peek in it, David taught them how to build homes....the list goes on and on. I don't even want to get into religion. What humans do not typically understand is by giving you these things we removed the ability of you to learn for yourselves how to make fire, how to contact God, and heavens knows not how many other things. It's fine and dandy to provide for a child all the basic necessities in the world but we did that with the planet Earth, I aquienced to the destruction of all the dinosaurs for reasons not clear to me but I knew the world would recover. But the whole "humanity's morality is not equal to its technology" and perhaps even the Fall has come because humans have been interfered with and with the Fall even God couldn't do anything but let Angels even out the scales....shhh don't tell Dominic I said that. For why I love animals I upfront say I *AM* animals and I know a point in time that given the proper tools everything from dolphins to dogs to cats to cows can become intelligent and ensouled. Not because of Vapula or Eli or other people but just because God's creation allows yes Laisie to enter Heaven because she chooses to help Timmy and not kick him down the well because he hit her with a stick. They're arn't many up here yet and that's probably a good thing because it means no one is affecting them too much that they might be altered like man and when they DO evolve it'll be right. So if I don't hate humanity then what's up with my dissonance conditions? Well I want you to know that humanity's technology IS still far more powerful than they are likely ready for in my opinion. I'm not freaking because you have the Nukes, though you did give me a few scares there in the 1950s. However I exist to protect (yes it's cliche but so's Laurence) the balance of nature in which if a certain germ contacts another humanity's reign on this planet is over and that's all because some poor sot thought that eliminating kittens would make the planet a better place but caused their germs to alter. I don't think I have to mention the words AIDS here do I? No I didn't do it deliberately nor did anyone else nor am I happy about it...it happened though and man is dealing with the effects. So please understand I'm aware that the rain forrest isn't in any real danger and Mother Nature is hardier than people think she is (She also throws great parties at her glade) but I'm also aware that with alittle hell spawned chemistry mankind may unintentionally wipe out something they need down the line and worse eliminate the potential of a million new races because they felt threatened by Garfield. I'm really not THAT worried anyway about my fellow animals, after all I feel who knows how many germs die every day and they bounce right back. I'm not even against technology, it's going to help me right a bunch of wrongs even very very very old ones. Didn't you see Jurassic Park? - -Jordi aka Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:23:59 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Catholic Dogma (was Jordi) [Right. I was forgetting that whole bastard-child fusion of creationism and evolution. That'll teach *me* to use Catholic dogma as a basis for argument....] Casca not to be snarky or anything but as a veteran of 12 years of schooling at Holy Family Elementary and then St. Josephs I must say that present Dogma of the Catholic church (enforced by ye old Bishop of Rome) is they'res no conflict between Evolution and God. Furthermore there remarkably more progressive in this area than the Protestant churchs even as they lag behind in the ordination of women. Still they've got them beat on the ab...okay I'll stop weighing churchs before someone tosses in a grenade. :-) - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:25:30 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Gloriana Beautiful write up there Moe. Absolutely beautiful, I oddly feel an urge to play soft music around David while he's visiting his servitor and tell the man to start wearing a "French Frog suit" - -Charlemagne _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:32:48 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> if only ... (shedim) ... shedim really existed. http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/02/18/yates.trial/index.html Then this sort of thing might make sense. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Rejoignez le plus grand service de messagerie au monde avec MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com/fr ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:49:34 +0000 From: "Jonathan Walton" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited >Jordi's perspective on humans, actually, is not all that far removed >from Lucifer's. Actually, that's why (when writing up Jordi for Tattered) I made him and Lucifer such good friends before the Fall. They both think that Humanity is stepping out of its assigned place in the natural order (Jordi as a Tattered Malakite? hmmmm...). Also, Michael's opposition to Jordi's plan to wipe out humanity (GMG timeline) gives the Archangel of Animals a reason to be happy when Lucifer stands up to oppose Mike, Metatron, and the human-loving faction of Heaven. Any thoughts on why, in canon, Jordi decided not to side with the Lightbringer? The Rebellion seems to have Jordi's name written all over it. Later. Jonathan _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:58:18 -0500 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Lord of the Undead [A villain from my campaign] Eramus Vampire Servitor of Death Cor-4 Str-8 Agi-8 Eth-4 Int-10* Pre-8 Cel-4 Will-8 Per-10* * Raised independantly Relic: Unholy Broadsword 6/ (shrinks to cane size) Vessel: Wolf 1/, Bat 1/, Manbat 6/, Human 3/ Skills: Dodge 6/, Emote 3/, Fighting 6/, Intimidation 6/, Large weapon (Broadsword 6/, Mace 2/), Leadership 6/, Lying 6/ (He learned from the second best), Logistics 4/, Occultism 6/, Riding 4/, Saminga's organization 5/, Savoir Faire 6/, Seduction 3/, Survival 4/, Tactics 6/ Sorcery: Alchemy 4/, Command 6/, Excorcism 4/, Focus 6/, Necromancy 6/ (The Summoning and controlling of the Damned), Summon 6/ Songs: Song of Claws 6/, Song of Dreams (Corporeal 4/), Song of Shield (Corporeal 4/), Song of Projection (Corporeal 6/), Song of Healing (Corporeal 6/), Song of Wings 4/, Song of Mist 6/ Dischord: Need (Blood) 3/, Vunerability (Sunlight) 3/ Attunements: Vampiric Kiss, Zombie, Art of Combat, Ophis's whisper (unique attunement that allows a man to make a suggestion which the person will consider their own) Eramus is not one of Saminga's more favored servitors but because he's only a 'mere' Vampire very few people are actually aware that for at least the past few centuries the man has more or less commanded the Undead resources of Saminga and a great of the Hellish ones have flocked under his servive in a "Demotion" as well. Eramus is relatively young as Dark Lords of the undead go and frankly a bit of a social climber at a mere 875 years. Originally a Slavic warrior who travelled with some French Knights to protect some pilgrims he found himself embroiled in a conflict between Khalid and Laurence that soured him upon Heaven in general. Returning home he was unfortunately soon witness to his wife and homes burning by a rival Baron while he was off galivanting to safeguard religious devotees....all in all he was having a rather poor time with his faith. A Chance encounter with a wandering Vampire resulted in Eramus discovering much about the war in Hell and his bravado managed to attract the attention of the vampire's master to making him one. Eramus isn't exactly sure why he accented to the transformation into a Vampire now given his anger and despair at having lost everything and seen massacres of innocents by Heaven's troops (in his mind at least) as they lead man to his doom...yada yada yada..has cooled but he's waged the war as best he can ever since. Curiously he proved himself quite the prodigy and survived several demonic masters as gradually as in life people began to gravitate toward him. Saminga didn't notice when Baal managed to overcome his distaste toward humans and approached the human whom his agents already inside the Death Prince's organization had singled out. Making a few minor deals here and there Eramus has emerged as the secret leader of a ancient cabal of undead who had grown sick of the mad prince's direction. Content in the background they have begun contacting and organizing all the "victems" of the rituals to transform into the undead to form a coalition. Keeping himself seperate from the actual operations they have been for centuries slowly gathering magical and temporal resources to advance their own agenda... The elevation of one of their number to the status of Demon Prince of the Undead. Eramus already has prepared for that eventually and knows personally the ritual will require a great many souls sacraficed nor that his fellows won't wish to choose him for the position....however he's made preparations that they're souls when they destroy each other will help fuel the spell (waste not want not) and he's confident he can finish the rest off before turning his servants on the rest of Saminga's body and heaven. Then he will drink Saminga's own essence and begin to Teach Heaven the true meaning of Pain for their manipulations. - -Charlie _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:59:42 -0500 From: Daniel Sauve Subject: Re: IN> Jordi (rant) On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:17:21 -0600, David Edelstein wrote: >I'm not trying to "put her in her place," I'm trying to refute what I >consider to be an incorrect opinion (as I explained in the much >lengthier bits of explanatory text that you didn't bother to quote). And you did it well. I think some may be investing emotion the wrong way in this debate. It's not a sports event, folks. - -- Delirious Dances-with-Penguins ahsdreamwalker@rogers.com / http://www.livejournal.com/users/deleriousraven/ A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:00:22 -0800 (PST) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Jordi revisited - --- Jonathan Walton wrote: > Any thoughts on why, in canon, Jordi decided not to > side with the > Lightbringer? The Rebellion seems to have Jordi's > name written all over it. To paraphrase Eric Burns, because God is Jordi's alpha? :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 01/01/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:00:15 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Kung Fu Jesus http://www.trailervision.com/trailer.php?id=111 note that trailer id # y'all. ;) (pour les francophones, le petit film est en englais, mais quand mꭥ c'est hyper-mega-super-chouette-amusant :P) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ T鬩chargez MSN Explorer gratuitement ࠬ'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:00:09 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Kung Fu Jesus http://www.trailervision.com/trailer.php?id=111 note that trailer id # y'all. ;) (pour les francophones, le petit film est en englais, mais quand mꭥ c'est hyper-mega-super-chouette-amusant :P) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ T鬩chargez MSN Explorer gratuitement ࠬ'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:13:58 -0800 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: Re: IN> Jordi This discussion of Jordi's write-up reminds me of a Rorschach inkblot: Person 1: "I see an evil monster." Person 2: "I see a silly eco-terrorist." Person 3: "I don't see enough ink to be a complete write-up." Person 4: "Look! a bunny!" Here's my take on Jordi. For several million years he was one of the two archangels of life. Novalis' word covered living things that were food producers, and Jordi's word covered living things that were food consumers. Until the arrival of homo sapiens however, no other life form (than perhaps angels) could choose between Destiny and Fate. By default, all life went to Heaven, and life continued without much need for intervention. Prior to humanity, the only big intervention (or big non-intervention depending on how you look at it) regarding life on Earth was the extinction of the dinosaurs. Heaven either directly caused or allowed to occur the mass extinction of a whole lot of life on Earth. Why did they do that? Perhaps it was orders from Yves. I imagine something like this: Jordi: "Why are you dropping a big rock on the Earth?" Yves: "This has to happen to allow a new life form to arise." Jordi: "What kind of life form?" Yves: "One with a Destiny." Jordi: "What's that?" Yves: "You'll know when the time comes." Jordi: "Is this God's will?" Yves: "Yes." Jordi: "Then so be it." It's fortuitous that Jordi was not a Cherub, as I'm sure having whole species wiped out in his care would have caused him great amounts of dissonance. Jordi is not the Cherub protector of animals, but rather the Kyriotate empathizer who can share bodies with animals and thus come to understand them. So when this new type of consuming animal called humans comes along, what does he do? He does what he always does: he shares part of himself with the humans to better understand them. What does Jordi discover? Well unlike any other consuming animal, humans have a capacity to learn all kinds of new behaviors but they lack any inhibitory instincts to keep their population or consumption in check. Without some kind of external force to keep them in line, Jordi reasons humans will out compete other species and destroy the balance of nature that has taken millions of years to create. Since Jordi doesn't regard any one animals species as inherently better than another, he logically concludes that destroying one species, humans, will preserve many other species. Jordi: "I need a big rock to kill the humans." Yves: "No, humans were the new life form I was talking about earlier. They have a Destiny." Jordi: "But they will destroy much of the life we have created." Yves: "That is part of their struggle. They must learn of the consequences of their actions for themselves." Jordi: "Your plan sounds too risky to me, First Soul. Maybe Michael will give me a big rock." Yves: "Yes, talk to Michael. Ask him about struggle, maybe he can help you understand why this must be." So Michael talks to Jordi and convinces him that God has a plan for the humans. Michael: "Life struggles. Some things live, some things die. It's God's will that human life struggle in this way. Yves says it is part of their Destiny." etc. Destiny would be a hard concept for Jordi to understand. No other animal has it. No other animal needs it. Heck, angels probably didn't even know that they had it up until the Fall. And the worst part is, Jordi couldn't just possess the humans to understand this Destiny thing because not even the humans themselves understood or were even aware of it. Destiny remained intangible to Jordi and he had to take it on faith that God knew what He was doing. I think this view makes Lucifer's temptation of Jordi all the more dramatic. Lucifer: "We can put things back to the way they were - the way you know that they are meant to be." Jordi: "God has a plan for the humans. They are meant to struggle, as am I with their actions." Lucifer: "You could control the humans, make them live the way you want them to." Jordi: "Such a species does not merit so much of my attention. They are but one animal in my care." etc. After the Fall, I imagine Jordi finally understood what Destiny was. Not all beings get to go to Heaven. Some of them, angels and humans, have to choose it. While I am sure that it saddens Jordi that an animal could not choose Heaven, it is just more evidence of a flawed species needing guidance. What is Jordi's role in such guidance? Nothing maybe. It is just one species out of many. Or perhaps Jordi does recognize humans as a special animal and he has his other wards preparing lessons for the flawed species to discover. Lessons like: shepherd thyself, don't eat more than you need, don't be cruel, and choose Heaven. - --Vaughn - - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - This is not the sig you're looking for. Move along, move along... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:18:27 -0700 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> Jordi (rant) Hi. Firstly, let me be concrete on one point here. I respect your writing for IN, and I wasn't trying to be snide, or insult either your, or Pearcy's writing. What I /was/ saying is that off all the Superiors that were in Pearcy's original main book, Jordi is the most diff- icult to reconcile with the more nuanced portrayal of In Nomine that you, Beth and others present. << Julian Mensch wrote: > Jordi, IMO, was a catering to political correctness. Har. >> It helps if you actually refute the point, or at least disagree in a civil manner. If you want a solid example of the PC mindset in Jordi's writeup, consider: "When they kill, it must be cleanly and without pain, as is the custom of Jordi." Animals (arguably) never intend to cause pain for the _sake_ of causing pain, but there are a huge number of species who do things that could rightly be said to be exceedingly painful to their prey. There are insects, for example, that paralyze their prey and lay their eggs within the paralyzed body, leaving the prey to be eaten alive. Another PC element of Jordi is that the Native Americans were "some of the only people that he really liked on Earth." (Marches 102). Contrary to ethnic stereotype, they weren't any kinder to animals than any other society _at their tech level_ -- i.e., they understood damned well that their survival depended on animal factors, and thus reverance of animal spirits was a part of their religion, but this didn't prevent wasteful cruelty when it did not threaten their own survival. The custom of running entire herds of buffalo off cliffs and then using a very small fraction of the remains comes to mind here... << He didn't want to exterminate humans because they were abusing animals. He wanted to exterminate humans because he could see THEN that humans were uniquely capable of expanding, consuming resources, and damaging the ecosystem in a way that no other animals could. >> I see no textual support for this whatsoever. It's an interesting idea, but I think it attributes a *lot* of reasoned prescience to a very instinct-driven Archangel. Can you show me _any_ human writings that indicate anyone believed man would become a serious threat to the ecosystem prior to about 1700? If nobody else saw it coming, then why did Jordi? Mind you, there might *be* textual support for this idea in a book I don't have. I own Superiors 3, the main book, the GMG, the APG, the Marches, Heaven & Hell, Liber Canti and the CPG. << > They didn't have the *technology* to hurt the enviorn- > ment until two centuries ago! Uh, this is very wrong. >> Okay, add "seriously" in there before hurt. There were instances of slash-and-burn farming, and other kinds of short-term damage, but I don't recall anything that would warrant any kind of balanced being, even an animal rights zealot, to feel that we need to be exterminated. Certainly, humans were generally no crueller to animals than animals were to animals -- prior to 1700. << Some angels were more strong-willed than others, and I've always figured Jordi probably has the highest Will of any Archangel, save maybe Michael. >> This makes a lot of sense; I'll buy it. << Most Archangels are pretty solipsistic about their Words; Jordi's worldview is just less compatible with anything resembling a human worldview. >> I'm not sure about that. Michael doesn't see war as the answer to everything; I doubt he even thinks it really solves many problems. Jean doesn't seem interested in _unconditional_ progress. Novalis allows for necessary violence. I don't see Laurence putting Muslims to the sword, or Janus going as incoherantly dynamic as Tattered Demogorgon. Marc certainly would agree that there are some things that just shouldn't be the subject of Trade (like souls, or moral values) and Blandine does not want all fear and nightmare obliterated. Most Archangels serve their Word, moderating that service with a basically moral and benevolant outlook and an awareness that there is more under Heaven and Earth than just Flowers or Trade or what have you. That is why they are heros -- you can't be an hero and a zealot bound in tunnel vision at the same time, because if you're the latter, it's just a matter of time until you do something, well, evil. This, I guess, is why so few games decide to go the "moral absolutes" rule. It's _difficult_ to portray a group of extremely diverse mindsets, avoid "goody-two- shoes" stereotypes and have them all come off as heroic to most readers. Doubly so if your "heros" were ori- ginally satirical jabs at pop architypes. I'm strict about who I consider a hero. Jordi, based on what I've read, doesn't qualify. He goes beyond flawed hero and into the realm of misguided and tragic villian. In my reading, at least. And Novalis et al supporting him tarnishes them by extension. << > 2. Modern, canon In Nomine is about moral absolutes. No, it's not. >> My apologies -- I've been reading through list archives and I thought it was made fairly clear that this was A) canon, and B) a stance you agreed with strongly. Realize, when I say "moral absolutes," I don't mean that in either a superficial or insulting sense. << > I'm> not against shades-of-grey games, being a huge WoD fan, > but David E. has made it very clear in the past that > that's not what In Nomine is about. I've never said it's all black and white, either. (Not to mention, I don't dictate what In Nomine is or isn't "all about.") My personal opinion is that In Nomine works better in high contrast, but I never wrote in the GMG that the canonical IN universe is high contrast! >> OH. This was a serious mistake on my part, then. I thought canonical IN was meant to be high contrast. How exactly would you rate it? > Now look at Jordi, not from Jordi's perspective, but > from a balanced, outside perspective as a player of > the game. Jordi, plainly put, is *evil*. No, he's not. << > It makes me a > little sick how much sympathy he gets, just because he > has a very PC cause. Huh? Jordi isn't going around slaughtering people. Yes, he'd like to get humans to abandon industry and go back to the woods. So would a lot of people who voted for Ralph Nader. ;) >> This is not my reading of the text. There's room for both interpretations, but I think that the text heavily hints that Jordi is perfectly willing to slaughter people: "They gain dissonance if they value human life above animal life." "Angels who don't work for him consider Jordi to be completely insane." (Jordi's Soldiers, CPG) "These people tend to be hard-core animal rights zealots, and while some are activists engaged in conservationist movements, many are combatants who join eco-terrorist groups." (Maybe you see eco-terrorists, or people who sponsor them, as being heroic. If so, that's a different of our IRL morals, because I most certainly don't.) "...anyone who willfully violates Jordi's rules, _or fails to give the Archangel proper respect_, will be cast out and possibly devoured." (Lots of Archangels are understandably harsh about insolence, but Jordi is the only one who will _kill_ over it. That's classical supervillian behaviour, honestly.) There's also talk about how Jordi dislikes Servitors appearing before him in human vessels, and I read an implication that he seems bigoted against humanity. Bigotry is never a heroic trait, especially in the extremely general and zealous extent Jordi takes it. << > I'm not saying that testing cos- > metics on bunnies is a good thing, here, but look at > Jordi's dissonance conditions! That's a *false* moral > imperitive no matter how you cut it! Not "avoid excess > cruelty to animals" or "punish humans when the mistreat > animals," but VALUE ANIMALS ABOVE HUMAN LIFE. Incorrect. Nowhere do his dissonance conditions say to value animals above human life. They do imply that human life shouldn't be valued above animal life, but that's not even an imperative -- an angel of Animals _could_ be fond of humans and willing to, say, kill a bear to prevent it from mauling a human. >> How is a dissonance condition possibly _not_ an imperitive? The list has been through the discussion about how getting dissonance is _seriously_ yucky for angels before. << > 3. Whenever Jordi comes into the books, he seems to drag > with him a whole steaming pile of new age dung I thought that was Eli, Blandine, and Novalis. ;) >> Their perspective is bent to fit the game, whereas I feel the game is bent to fit Jordi's perspective. << > that flows out to pollute the rest of the game, further diluting > the Abrahamic mythology that underlies it. In Heaven & > Hell, we find out that animals have souls, Destinies > and Fates. Again, WTF!? Well, yeah, I thought that was kind of poorly reasoned, but then, what kind of Heaven wouldn't have animals in it? >> I'm not against there being animals in Heaven per se. I _am_ against Destiny and Fate for anything non-sapient -- I'm willing to acknowledge that it's possible for a dolphin to reach it's Fate or a smart dog to do something vaguely resembling Destiny, but H&H is specific about _all_ species being in the Savannah. How does a scorpion find it's destiny? A cow? > Selfishness and selflessness > are utterly alien to animal behaviour. There's instinct > and family and even maternal care, but there's no real > moral cognizange, and whenever humans attribute good > or evil to animals, they're anthropomorphizing them > terribly, and usually letting feelings of cuteness, > disgust and fright interfere with real moral awareness. << Actually, there's considerable evidence that several species of animals are pretty close to being sapient by any reasonable definition (and I'm >> Sapient, I might believe. << not just talking about chimps and whales here), and also evidence that many animals DO, in fact, feel actual emotions. This evidence is not >> And this I have no doubt of. << dictates. However, stating baldly that all animals are purely instinct-driven machines whose behavior is entirely deterministic may be your opinion, but it's not objective fact. >> I didn't mean to say that. What I do mean to say is that I think *moral awareness* and *moral conflict* are beyond the vast majority of animals. Ergo, destiny and fate have little meaning. << > I'm not against exploring issues of animal rights, > the animal perspective or totemic spirituality in an > RPG; Werewolf: the Apocalypse does an outstanding job > of this. But I do ask for a sense of thematic appro- > priateness, and that's just completely absent from > Jordi's presentation in IN. In fairness, about the only thing we have on Jordi is his basic rulebook writeup. >> *Exactly* my point! I'm not bashing the game (or your writing) here. I'm just saying that _based on what we have_, he's broken. I suspect the Superiors writeup would have fixed a lot of that, if the line hadn't been cancelled, but I don't see evidence of a more balanced, morally acceptable Jordi *anywhere* (in the books, on the list, in the Heresies, on fan pages, etc.) ...other than perhaps in the last few posts you've made. Now, if you get the oppurtunity to make the viewpoints you just expressed here canon, I'll be cheering for you. But as it stands, I don't think they are canon -- or at least, not anything resembling an _obvious_ reading of canon. << The reasoning is entirely different. Jordi is serving his Word and defending God's creation. His methods may seem extreme, but he's not trying to overrule God's will or remake the universe in HIS image. >> I think that's *exactly* what he's doing. God said that man was by definition special, and Jordi seems to be working very hard at denying that, at viewing HIS OWN Word as more important than what God _said_ was important. << [Derek] wrote Nicole. He intended Khalid to be a fanatical bomb-throwing Muslim, the Archangel of Rag-Headed Terrorists. He also once said that Dominic was the kind of Archangel who wouldn't think twice about leveling an apartment building and killing all human occupants, if it would slay one demon. He probably did intend Jordi to be a nutjob who'd happily exterminate mankind, too. >> And after telling me I'm wrong rather rudely, you go on in your last sentence here to say the exact same thing that I am. If the author of the only long text on Jordi we have meant for him to be a nutjob, how can you say (in canon) that he's not? << All of those Archangels have been "softened" since then, and so will Jordi, I should imagine, when/if he ever gets an expanded writeup. In the meantime, I know of no canon that has actually said he goes around killing humans for no good reason. >> And I suspect I'll like "softened" Jordi a lot, just like I like "softened" Dominic and "softened" Khalid a lot. But I'm not seeing a lot of soft in canon Jordi, and I am seeing someone who kills fairly freely in the most obvious reading of canon. But I will grant that I can't find a quote where that subtext is stated implicitly. With friendly regard and no hostility intended, - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2549 ********************************