in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 28 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2560 In this digest: Re: IN> He who lives by the Soul-kill.... IN> Exception Humans IN> superior beginnings Re: IN> superior beginnings Re: IN> superior beginnings Re: IN> Triad 314 - Vendettas (Pt 1) Re: IN> superior beginnings IN> IRON REV Spring 2001 Re: IN> superior beginnings Re: IN> He who lives by the Soul-kill.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:12:19 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> He who lives by the Soul-kill.... >There's two problem with that. Firstly, how are you going to stop the >Calabim from hunting angels? Malakim without Murderous have the option to go somewhere else and come back with a few buddies and a better chance of winning. Besides, Calabim hunt angels anyway. >Secondly, Laurence has also sworn the oath to not suffer an evil to live is >it's his choice. He can't vote for that ban without getting dissonance, and >as C-in-C his vote is pretty hefty - especially as a large number of the >Enhancer Talismans will take sword form in the Celestial. The fundamental question with regard to "not allow an evil to live" can be looked at, from the point of view of the Commander of Heaven's Armies, as what fights the War most effectively. I make the following assumptions: Calabim outnumber Malakim (demons outnumber angels in general, of course), and on average, when a Malakite fights a Calabite to soul-death on the Corporeal plane, either is equally likely to lose. (This, of course, is a claim from the fact that the War is mostly stalemated at the moment.) Hell would then have the advantage in a bunch of one-on-one slugfests, the kind of contests these Talismans would encourage. If Malakim keep themselves sharp, able to retreat long enough to come back with (or make it to the place of) a few buddies, they're far more likely to survive. This also speaks to a second argument, namely that when two beings fight to soul-death, even the winner is likely to have lost a few Forces, something that would occur less in this case. Finally, Heaven knows that demons have a tendency to duel with each other far more than angels. If Hell has these Talismans, and Heaven doesn't, Hell's casualties from internal duels will be boosted while Heaven's will not. Not that casualties from duels were high anyway among angels, but every bit counts. Also note that one of Laurence's Oaths is to choose the best weapon available -- and he *hates* his angels getting Dissonance or Discord. Since the Talismans evoke pseudo-Discord, I can see him getting really antsy about their use. Dominic would probably back him up on this; 'course, Michael is probably a little more open to the concept, and I'm not sure where David would stand. Probably "If it works, and you can handle it, great." The Peace Faction would probably vote for such a ban; I think a majority would be achievable. Still, all of this depends on the assumptions, plus plenty of stuff based on the flavor of the game. YMMV. :^) >Cheers, James. William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:36:05 -0700 From: Timothy Groth Subject: IN> Exception Humans I don't think this has been done before. Also my books are in New York and I'm here in Colorado. My memory is pretty good but college has been filling my head with all sorts of useless facts so I don't remember as much IN as I used to. These rules just sorta fell out of a really big IN thing I'm working on. They're basically beanies for humans who gain Forces by improving attributes and not receiving celestial aid. Personally I'd run them pretty strictly so that a celestial teaching in skill and Song would be the extent of celestial aid allowed before the bonuses no longer apply. More forgiving GMs might let them even receive Forces from celestials. Even if these Forces don't count against the human receiving bonuses I think that there would be a lot of changes to the way things worked if humans responded to added Forces by receiving these bonuses. Since they aren't Soldiers I'm going to call them Paragons, just because it was the first word that came to me and it sounds alright. All that is required to be a Paragon is being mortal and having more than 5 Forces which were developed by buying attributes up. Paragons tend to develop their Forces in the realm that their most important skill belongs to. This does not mean that Paragons only advance one type of Force however. As they become more aware of the Symphony with the accumulation of Forces they are likely to widen their horizons and to include many neglected areas of themselves into their being. This will be reflected in developing other attributes, skills and the Forces associated with them. Paragons can be amazingly charismatic as a result of their dedication and the fact that they are humanities potential fulfilled. People want to be like them and few Paragons do not develop a level or two of charisma. The type of charisma which the Paragon gains depends on his distribution of Forces and what he stands for. Even so others will find themselves hard pressed to not like the Paragon on some level. Opponents may feel the Paragon's talents are going to waste and that there is a possibility of convincing him of that. Those who hate Paragons do so with a furious conviction. Mechanics wise for every Force beyond 5 a Paragon has their maximum charisma increases by 1. Most Paragons have a charisma a point or two below their maximum. GMs may want to enforce a minimum charisma, awarding it instead of character points to represent the growing impact that the Paragon has on those around her. The main advantage, from most Paragons' point of view, of increasing Forces is that it allows them to have exceptionally high skill ratings. They can master material completely and begin to push the boundaries of the subject. This bonus comes from an increased understanding of themselves, their environment and how they fit into the whole. Paragons are focused, flexible and thus able to do more with what they have. A Paragon's max rating for skills is equal to their total Forces. I personally like to make all humans bounded by their Forces in terms of skills, but to allow the most important skill of an individual go one higher than their max. For a Force to be gained that skill must already be pushed forward. This makes the improvement a consequence of dedication to some aspect of understanding the world. In addition Paragons have certain thresholds. When a certain number of Forces are gained an increase in amount of information gained from the Symphony occurs. The other effects are smooth, a part of a continuos improvement in understanding. The thresholds represent sudden insight into the true nature of the Symphony. What ever event finally pushes the individual over the threshold revels a bit more of the true workings of the universe. First the corporeal Symphony is shown to be merely a part of a greater whole. The Paragon becomes aware that there is much more going on. New information enters in and may well be too much to handle. Second the ethereal Symphony becomes clear to the Paragon. These individuals are always conscious, alert and aware. Even during dreams. Finally the celestial Symphony becomes perceivable to the Paragon. Fundamental truths out existence come to these Paragons and they seem to have a boundless energy. They almost never enter ruts and engage in massive projects which they sustain energy for throughout. Many go from project to project with no stops in between. They simply do not need them anymore. 7+ Forces: These humans may detect disturbance at -10. They can buy off this penalty bit by bit. Each character point spent reduces the penalty by 1. It is possible to simply buy it off all at once. Once the penalty is gone the Paragon has Symphony Awareness. Conscious essence expenditure and the use of Corporeal Songs may come before the disadvantage is fully bought of. At around -5 the Paragon should be able to spend essence consciously. 9+ Forces: If not already a Lucid Dreamer the Paragon gains the skill at 0 and always engages in normal lucid dreaming when they sleep. Shaping dreams, going out of their dreamscape and other fancy stuff works like it does for everyone else. These Paragons can use Ethereal Songs. 11+ Forces: Celestial Songs become available and the Paragon has a sense of the Symphony roughly equivalent to that of a celestial. In terms of amount of information and connection to it, the conception of what the information is may be substantially different. Whenever Paragons with this many Forces gets a check digit of 6+ on a skill roll they gain an essence. For check digits of 12+ they gain 2 essence. Every doubling of check digit is another essence. Some GMs may wish to require that the skill roll be modified by nothing besides time and essence spent. Any use of a Song or Talisman (even if the Paragon created it) yields no essence. Two optional bonuses that I'm not sure fit as well with the idea are greater ease of interaction with ethereal spirits and an extension of life. Paragons exert an innate sway over the natives of the March. It is as if the mortal has a greater say in what the ethereal realm is like and spirits respond to that. For ever 2 Forces beyond 5 a Paragon has she gets +1 to all rolls involving ethereal spirits. This advantage would probably be limited to ethereal spirits that were created by humanity. As for extended life span every Force gained indicates a 10 year increase in natural life span. This does not protect from anything but death by old age. Paragon probably age more gracefully than other mortals but they don't stay young just by being better. Linked to this would be the option of allowing 9+ Force Paragons to calculate their hits as if they had a vessel with a level of corporeal Forces. Paragons are rare. People with the drive required are tracked down by either side and can often be made into Soldiers. It is doubtful that Paragons really register on the radar. If most Paragons have 7 or so Forces then most celestials will not really notice the extent of their abilities. I imagine Paragons fitting in nicely as an option for a player who wants to be a human. A 9 Force Paragon is about equal to a celestial when you look at it from the point of view of points and bring advantages to the table that not even a powerful Soldier has. The final blurb about Paragon Sorcerers. Sorcerers seem the type to develop an ungodly amount of Will if left on their own. I'd personally allow rituals with above 6 ratings that followed the same general increase in power from level to level. That combined with the increased effectiveness of all the Sorcerer's rituals seems fair and doesn't inflate sorcery too much. The rituals will probably be the ones that promise amazing things and that no one can get to work. Paragon Sorcerers would probably also be creators of new rituals, as part of the point of Paragons as I see them is the advancing what humanity can do. Since most Sorcerers will have celestial involvement they'll be amazingly rare and GMs should demand steep prices for playing them (beyond just the character points). Personally I'd demand at least a medium New York style pizza with sausage and onion with a 2 liter bottle of coke. Though I suppose a good deal of background story is an equally acceptable bribe. Coming soon, the Nephalim rules that fell out of the same project. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:15:13 -0500 (EST) From: Arthur Roberts Subject: IN> superior beginnings This is a MIME encoded message. - --=_8e78b4a60a07f48a536dd428d5f5619d Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are there any superiors who started out as relievers? - --=_8e78b4a60a07f48a536dd428d5f5619d-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:26:20 -0600 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> superior beginnings - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Roberts" To: Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:15 AM Subject: IN> superior beginnings > Are there any superiors who started out as relievers? Haagenti started out as a gremlin. Laurence started out as a 9-Force Malakite. Can't recall the beginnings of any other Superior being specifically mentioned. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:44:18 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> superior beginnings Charles Glasgow wrote: > Laurence started out as a 9-Force > Malakite. I don't think it's specified that he started out as 9 Forces, though he probably did since it's rare for an Archangel to create an angel with more than that. Any of the latter-day Archangels might have started out as relievers, but I don't think it's specified which ones were created as new angels. They probably didn't have much need for relievers before the Fall, so any Archangels born before then are more likely to have started out as angels. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:00:08 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Triad 314 - Vendettas (Pt 1) >"So, what are we going to tell him, Muriel?" ... Who knew? OWWW!!!!" I love it! Hey, you do keep your stuff on file, like on a website or anything, Michael? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ Discutez en ligne avec vos amis, essayez MSN Messenger : http://messenger.msn.fr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:49:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> superior beginnings At 7:44 AM -0600 2/28/02, David Edelstein wrote: [...] >They probably didn't have much need for relievers before the Fall, so >any Archangels born before then are more likely to have started out as >angels. Alternatively, if you take the assumption that Eli sort of drips relievers out of his wings from sheer Word-aura, there could be a whole _bunch_ of old angels (Superiors included) who started out as relievers. It's not really defined.... O:> (Could put yet another spin on Judgment/Creation, of course. "Curse it, Dad! How could you _do_ this to me???") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:20:41 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> IRON REV Spring 2001 Here it is! This is Iron rev, an occasional writing contest for the list. For those of you who haven't seen one since you've been here, the format is as follows: A contest proposer posts a list of "ingredients" (which is normally a list of phrases, like "sneakers," "nails," and "snow on Sunday") along with a deadline for turn-ins and a deadline for voting. Interested contributors post adventure seeds(that is, verbal descriptions a GM could use to run a short adventure; amount of supporting stats is up to the author) which they label as part of the contest. Including the label [IRON REV] in the subject line will label your post for inclusion in the voting list. The only limits on a seed are that 1) it must fall within the list rules regarding such things as size, content, etc., 2) it must be in by the entry deadline, 3) it is *preferable* that the adventure be close to strict In Nomine canon, and be playable using only the Main Book (this is not 100% necessary, since I'm not qualified to make the canon call anyway, but it's likely to lose votes if it's obviously not canon), and 4) it must use the ingredient proposed in some manner. You can be as subtle, blatant, literal, or metaphorical as you want. Entries are voted on by private message sent to the contest proposer, who then tallies and posts the results. The winner gets adulation, ego boost, and cash prizes totaling $0.00. :^) DEADLINES Deadline for entry in this contest is 12:01 a.m. US Eastern Time, March 9. Your seed must be posted to the list by this time. The voting deadline is 12:01 a.m. US Eastern Time, March 16. Your votes must have been emailed to me, at wjk150@email.psu.edu, at this time. To vote, choose a first and second place adventure seed. (Make sure you label which is which!) The winner will be the seed with the most first place votes; in case of a tie, the tied seed with the most second-place votes will win. In case of a further tie, or a tie for second, I will cast a tiebreaking vote. I will not vote otherwise, nor will I enter a seed in the contest. And now for... THE INGREDIENTS I anxiously await the list's response to my attempt at a slightly unusual ingredient list. :^) This Iron Rev's single ingredient is: http://earl.of.sandwich.net/In_Nomine/ironrev.jpg Feel free to use any element from the picture, or the whole thing, as literally or metaphorically as you like. (This picture, by the way, was drawn and scanned for me by a friend, who will also take other requests if you'd like to contact me off-list.) Good luck! William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:17:02 -0800 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> superior beginnings >Alternatively, if you take the assumption that Eli sort of drips >relievers out of his wings from sheer Word-aura, there could be a >whole _bunch_ of old angels (Superiors included) who started out >as relievers. > >It's not really defined.... O:> > >(Could put yet another spin on Judgment/Creation, of course. "Curse it, >Dad! How could you _do_ this to me???") > It could also explain Elis walkabout; Judgment is bringing a Paternity suit you would not believe. I am reminded of a line from The Crow; "Mother is the name for God in the hearts and minds of all children." - -- hammer and anvil fire sweat iron and breath forging destiny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:41:34 -0500 From: misha89@comcast.net Subject: Re: IN> He who lives by the Soul-kill.... > > Well... sort of. A Malakite gets a bonus to a Weapon skill, but Enhancer > > Talismans are necklaces, not weapons. You could probably create > > something in the form of a weapon with similar effects, but it ought to > > be significantly more expensive. > They're only necklaces in corporeal form; their Celestial form can vary > (LR p 11). "These items take the form of leather-and-wood necklaces - three round beads, two triangles (pointing down), and another three round beads, strung on a leather thong" (LR, p. 59). The later mentions of Discord disappearing when the Talismans are removed strongly implies that the canonical ones stay in necklace form. If you want to allow them different forms in keeping with the passage you mentioned above, that's your call as a GM, but I wouldn't do it. > Even if the form is a necklace, that won't inconvenience a Malakite > of Creation; while a Relic/1 with a Sword form would work for anyone > else. Only for Malakim; the Calabim won't get any benefit from it, as it enhances their Fighting skill, and not Large Weapon. Also, it takes some pretty creative fighting to hit someone with a necklace while you're wearing it! > > I have my doubts about classing Enhancer Talismans as Celestial > > Artifacts, anyway. I think they make more sense as Ethereal Talismans, > > with some Special Features added ("Celestials Only", "Harms User"). > > Perhaps this could qualify as errata... Beth? > A paragraph of the description is concerned with their functioning in the > Celestial Realms, something that Ethereal Talismans cannot do... > Also, they do (or at least, are rumoured) to affect Ethereals. I still think it's not written as well as it could be and not very well thought out. It doesn't make a lot of sense as a Celestial Artifact. > > Um, how does this follow? OK, a Berserk Calabite isn't likely to leave a > > fight, but Murderous doesn't make a Malakite less likely to withdraw if > > he's getting the worst of the fight. > Yes it does: "The check digit of the failed Will roll determines how many > rounds he will fight to kill before his murderous nature is sated" IN p89. Look at the sentences right before that: "In a combat situation, the character goes for the kill, regardless of the consequences. At the start of a fight, he must make a successful Will roll, minus the level of his Discord to *avoid* trying to kill his foes." (italics in original) I interpret this as saying that the character must fight in the way most likely to kill his opponent, and he can't show mercy; as an example, if he gets into a barfight, he won't restrict himself to exchanging punches, but instead will pull the deadliest weapon he's got, be it knife, gun, or Flaming Sword. If it matched your description, "Murderous" would be essentially the same as "Berserk", where the character will "continue to hack through whoever's in front of him, friend or foe" (IN, p. 87). A "Berserk" celestial in that same barfight will keep fighting as long as anyone else, friend or foe, is standing (or he makes his modified Will roll) , although he won't necessarily come out with the Flaming Sword or the Uzi; a "Murderous" celestial will use his deadliest attack, no matter what it is, until all his opponents are dead (again, unless he makes his modified Will roll). > > "Cheap" is a relative term, I suppose. 1 point per level isn't > > enormously expensive, but the side effects are unpleasant, and for about > > the same cost, you can get a regular talisman. (3 points for a level/3 > > Enhancer Talisman, and 4 points for a level/3 regular talisman with > > the -2 pt Feature "Owner can be tracked".) > No: > Firstly, you cannot use regular Talismans in the Celestial Realms. I don't envision a lot of angels fighting in Hell long enough to want to equip themselves with special gear that is probably just going to be taken off their slain body. Nor do I think it likely that demons will be charging up to Heaven in significant numbers, not until Armageddon is nigh. > Secondly, you can take features on Enhancer Talismans - while this won't > reduce your base cost, it does mean you can gain other funky features with > the Enhancements you're prepared to accept. You can add Features to any Artifact, not just Celestial ones. > Thirdly, the Celestials concerned won't consider the side effects > particularly unpleasant. "On no, my Calabite wants to fight..my Malakite > *really* wants to kill demons!". Uh, the *player* might not consider the side effects unpleasant, but the celestial's boss probably will, since it makes his Servitor less likely to act as directed. > For that matter, an Enhancer Talisman makes > it harder for a Malakite to get dissonance. I haven't had a lot of problem with Malakim letting demons go when they had the option in my games, nor with an excess of surrendering to the forces of Hell. > Finally, they have other uses; loaning one to a friend is useful in > non-combat situations, unlike a normal combat skill Talisman. Only if your friend is someone for whom the Enhancer provides a non-combat skill. It's also worthless for non-celestials (neglecting ethereals), unlike a regular Ethereal Talisman. > > It seems to be that the side effects would make it much less likely that > > anyone would want to produce them in quantity, even if they were > > slightly easier to make. > > > Those side effects make them more popular for some people. Andre would like > all his Lilim to have one (it grants them Lust) and Beleth would like her > Impudites to have them (granting them Fear), and every DP would want some of > their Habbalah to have some (depending on the resulting Need). That's before > the skill bonuses! If a Servitor has to have Discord added to him to make him promote a Superior's Word, I think Princes are likely to start cannibalizing the Servitor for Forces to add to other Servitors that are more loyal and useful. By your argument, every Prince should be inflicting "appropriate" Discords on all his Servitors, regardless of the handicap it puts on their operations in the corporeal realm. If we look at it from a strictly points-based perspective, it's more efficient to just give out the points for skills directly, instead of giving Servitors artifacts that can be lost to the other side and that provide handicaps for anyone using them. As ought to be clear by now, I'll gladly affirm your right to have Enhancer Talismans popping up on every generic celestial in your game if you want. I don't agree with the decision, and I think your reasoning is flawed, but it's your call. - -- Michael ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2560 ********************************