in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 21 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2576 In this digest: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... Re: IN> New Servitor of Infernal Fire Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... Fwd: Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... IN> The Helpless Re: IN> The Helpless ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:22:50 +0000 From: DAMIEN MCGURRELL Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies I don't believe they should be able lie at all, just like a seraph. I fact I often run balseraph npcs with a habbalite like delusion that they still are angels. " It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them! " --Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:58:23 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies Unni Sol峠wrote: > > I was wondering: Will a balseraph become dissonant if he utters something > that he *knows* is a lie? > > It says in the books that a balseraph will not utter a lie, on the > premises that he makes his own truth first. But what if he for some reason > needs to utter something that does not fit into his personal version of > The Truth? Is there enough of the seraph left in him that he will take > dissonance, or is he completely unable to make the statement until he has > managed to fit it into his truth? They can't lie without using their resonance. That's in the IPG. (Or possibly the IPG errata--I can't quite remember which offhand.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:27:15 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies - --- Unni_Sol峠 wrote: > I was wondering: Will a balseraph become dissonant if he > utters something that he *knows* is a lie? There's no such animal. If a Balseraph needs to say something, he'll convince himself of the truth of it first. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "The other beattitude that's not in the book is this: 'Blessed are those who are pleasant to live with.'" - -- Rev. Claudette Copeland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:32:22 -0500 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies > >>I was wondering: Will a balseraph become dissonant if he utters something > that he *knows* is a lie? I don't think he would just because of the nature of Demonic Resonance. The Resonance is set up so that they get harmed when the actions they take against the Symphony fail (A Balseraph's lies get disbelieved, a Calabite fails to break something and turns the power against himself). If he has to say something that he knew to be false, he would probably attempt to make it true in his mind first. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:03:40 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unni_Sol=E5s?= Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies OK, concluding from what you guys have said and yet another reading in the IPG: If a balseraph needs to utter something that has no place in his personal truth, he will either _make_ place for it forcefully (i.e. resonate) or he will keep his gob shut. :) Thanks for helping me clear things up! - -- Pain! Lots of pain! Unni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:10:55 -0400 From: "vez o'rama" Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies >From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unni_Sol=E5s?= >Subject: IN> Balseraphs and lies > >I was wondering: Will a balseraph become dissonant if he utters something >that he *knows* is a lie? The way I see it... Balseraphim are much too proud to lie. They hold themselves high above everyone/everything, _especially_ those Truth-loving Seraphim. Lying is beneath them. In my opinion, a Balseraph would always try to fix his symphony to suit his lie (which to him is the same as not lying :), or just not bother lying at all. However, you asked a 'What if' question, and having stated my own personal belief, I'll try to answering your question. What if a Balseraph _wants_ to lie? Oh man, weird :) So here goes: As I see it, Balseraphim do acquire dissonance through 'lying'. When they fail to succeed in a resonance roll, they fail to make their 'new truth' true... so they lied, and they become dissonant. Similarly, they ALSO get dissonance if they can't maintain the integrity of their new 'truth'... if a Balseraph contradicts himself, his truth is exposed as a lie... and he is punished with dissonance. In other words, if the Balseraph can't succeed in justifying/maintaining his 'truth', it is no longer _true_, which means he _lied_... dissonance results. So, it follows that if a Balseraph _knowingly_ lies, i.e. doesn't delude himself about it or try to make it true... well, that Balseraph should get dissonance, IMHO. :) - - vez P.S. Now if you would please roll a D666 against your Will, we'll see how good my argument is... ;) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:19:22 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... I'm pretty sure it says somewhere (the Seraph Resonance Table?) that if someone (angel or human) says something he believes is true, but it isn't, a good enough resonance result will enable a Seraph to know that a) the speaker thinks the statement is true but b) it isn't. So what about Balseraphs? According to the book, they don't show up on Detect Lies because they don't believe they are lying. When a Balseraph convinces himself, by whatever means, that a lie is true, does it show up on a Seraph resonance as a lie, or as a false statement which the Balseraph believes is true? Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:27:23 -0500 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies vez o'rama wrote: >>From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unni_Sol=E5s?= >>I was wondering: Will a balseraph become dissonant if he utters something >>that he *knows* is a lie? > > The way I see it... Balseraphim are much too proud to lie. They hold > themselves high above everyone/everything, _especially_ those Truth-loving > Seraphim. Lying is beneath them. In my opinion, a Balseraph would always > try to fix his symphony to suit his lie (which to him is the same as not > lying :), or just not bother lying at all. All things are true. Even false things? Yes. Even false things are true. How can false things be true? I don't know, man. I didn't do it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:35:41 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unni_Sol=E5s?= Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Janet Anderson wrote: > So what about Balseraphs? According to the book, they don't show up on > Detect Lies because they don't believe they are lying. When a Balseraph > convinces himself, by whatever means, that a lie is true, does it show up on > a Seraph resonance as a lie, or as a false statement which the Balseraph > believes is true? > That gets explained in the IPG p.27. On a CD 6 the seraph learns the whole truth, including that the speaker is a balseraph (unless there is an errata to this?). On lower CDs the seraph just learns that the speaker belives he is telling the truth. If the seraph for a fact knows that it's wrong, and that the speaker should know it too, the seraph can make an educated guess as to the nature of the speaker...:) All of ths assumes, of course, that the balseraph did not fail his resonace roll. - -- Pain! Lots of pain! Unni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:00:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New Servitor of Infernal Fire At 9:51 AM -0500 3/19/02, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Maurice Lane wrote: >> For him, she would lay down her life at his >> command or wish. > >Is this the Selfless Discord? Hmmm... True enough that all Calabim have _some_ Discord (with the exception of Kronos', who's a bit of an exception himself), and someone once did make a case for Princes having _uses_ for Calabim with Selfless... (Something about Baal having a cadre who would throw themselves in between him and a bullet, that kind of thing. O:> ) What a most amusing twist _that_ would be. Her father made her to love him, deliberately, with, er, malice aforethought... and the poor thing can't even hate him for that. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:07:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs and lies At 4:00 PM +0100 3/20/02, Unni Sol峠wrote: >I was wondering: Will a balseraph become dissonant if he utters something >that he *knows* is a lie? Yes. Of course... [...] >dissonance, or is he completely unable to make the statement until he has >managed to fit it into his truth? This is by _far_ the most common means. It's rare for a Bal to want to, ugh, lie when they could simply change the truth. This is why Balseraphs generally don't try to convince angels that they want to redeem, really. The effects might last just a little too long... or not long enough, depending on the Bal. *evil grin* But it is _theoretically_ possible that a Balseraph might get put between a rock and a hard place somehow and be forced to speak untruth knowingly. (Several Lilim getting their kicks by invoking more than one Geas to tell a lie -- either get dissonant from several stacked Geases (sure, I'd think about allowing that), or just once, from the lie... Or a bolluxed resonance and the need to maintain some cover/not blow a mission. Or something way out there.) At which point, like a Seraph, the Balseraph gets dissonant. Though it's more because the Balseraph has been unable to change reality to its whims (as the Bal thinks of it) than because it has polluted the beauty of the Symphony with a foul lie. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:10:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... At 7:19 PM +0000 3/20/02, Janet Anderson wrote: >So what about Balseraphs? According to the book, they don't show up on >Detect Lies because they don't believe they are lying. When a Balseraph >convinces himself, by whatever means, that a lie is true, does it show up on >a Seraph resonance as a lie, or as a false statement which the Balseraph >believes is true? Assuming the Seraph makes his Will roll to resist the Bal's influence (which, remember, he has a bonus to do!), then the latter. The Bal believes it is true, but is wrong. A CD6 would get a bit more truth, including that this person is a pathological liar who believes his own lies -- for a while. If the Seraph fails his Will roll to resist, then the Seraph will get a bit of a headache from trying to believe both his own resonance and the Balseraph's imposition at the same time. Tricky to GM, but in general the Seraph will go along with the Bal's story until the effect wears off, at which point the ringing in the spiritual ears is explained and you get a very hissed off Seraph. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:19:01 -0800 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... Janet Anderson wrote: > > I'm pretty sure it says somewhere (the Seraph Resonance Table?) that if > someone (angel or human) says something he believes is true, but it isn't, a > good enough resonance result will enable a Seraph to know that a) the > speaker thinks the statement is true but b) it isn't. > > So what about Balseraphs? According to the book, they don't show up on > Detect Lies because they don't believe they are lying. When a Balseraph > convinces himself, by whatever means, that a lie is true, does it show up on > a Seraph resonance as a lie, or as a false statement which the Balseraph > believes is true? The IPG addresses that specifically. Check digit 5, the Seraph gets: "S/he believes what s/he just said, totally and passionately, but s/he does /not/ know the truth." Most Seraphim are trained to know that probably means Balseraph. (No explanation is given for how they could tell a Balseraph from a person who believes something untrue, just the statement that they do know. I would guess it's something like, "The person believes it, and it's not true...but the belief is so total, so all-consuming, that the person is obviously delusional, perhaps a Balseraph." Check digit 6: "It's a Balseraph, using its resonance." However, the Seraph may still be compelled to believe the Balseraph's statement is truth... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:29:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:11:15 -0600 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [David Edelstein ] >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:07:48 -0600 >From: David Edelstein >Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... > >Janet Anderson wrote: > >> So what about Balseraphs? According to the book, they don't show up on >> Detect Lies because they don't believe they are lying. When a Balseraph >> convinces himself, by whatever means, that a lie is true, does it show >> up on a Seraph resonance as a lie, or as a false statement which the >> Balseraph believes is true? > > > >The latter. Which means if a Seraph detects someone saying something >that the Seraph knows the speaker knows is untrue, yet the speaker >believes it is true, the Seraph has a pretty good clue that he's dealing >with a Balseraph. > >-David > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:49:12 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Speaking of Balseraphs ... >The IPG addresses that specifically. Check digit 5, the Seraph gets: >"S/he believes what s/he just said, totally and passionately, but s/he >does /not/ know the truth." Most Seraphim are trained to know that >probably means Balseraph. (No explanation is given for how they could >tell a Balseraph from a person who believes something untrue, just the >statement that they do know. I would guess it's something like, "The >person believes it, and it's not true...but the belief is so total, so >all-consuming, that the person is obviously delusional, perhaps a >Balseraph." I certainly *hope* Seraphim are trained better than to think that because someone believes something untrue they must be a Balseraph ... or even that they must be delusional. Never mind celestial influence, there are so many reasons why humans might believe things an angel knows to be false. Just as an example, in the In Nomine world, angels and demons (and God) exist, but there are many people who don't believe in them. So if such a person sees a Mercurian (easily recognizable as an angel, which is not true of all IN angels) take celestial form, he will blink, shake his head, and when asked "Did you see an angel?" will reply, "No. I was looking at Nicole, and then this really bright street light or car headlight or something came along so I blinked, and when I looked again she was gone." And, being convinced that There Is No Such Thing As An Angel, he really *does* believe that what he saw was an optical illusion. And you might get a similar result from someone who believed in angels and demons but did not know what they looked like. Even a well-intentioned human might mistake a Kyriotate for a demon the first time he sees one. It's possible to make the same mistake with a Malakite. And humans who believe in extraterrestrials may mistake an Ofanite for a UFO or an Elohite for an alien. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:07:45 -0500 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> The Helpless This idea was sparked by Beth's comment about how and why Belial might have created his "daughter." It just struck me as a remarkable piece of cruelty, and I got this image of it being done, slightly differently, on a larger scale. - ---------- "Are you okay?" The damned soul kept his head down. It didn't pay to look demons in the eye, especially when they asked questions like that. "I don't have any more today. Please...." "Here." He flinched -- why did he keep flinching? It had never helped, not for hundreds of years, and still he flinched whenever one of the Lusties came around with a whip or a knife or whatever they thought was today's toy to use on the nameless soul chained to an insignificant corner in a crappy brothel in Shal-mari -- as the Djinn reached a paw toward him. A pad of the foot brushed his scars. He felt Essence flow into him - -- at least a couple of day's worth. He couldn't help it -- he looked up in surprise at the Djinn's bestial form. Discord, massive amounts of it, twisted the giant iguana's form into something more resembling a dragon. Unlike many others, this one almost made the demon seem like something noble. Its reptilian eyes did not blink, staring at him, but a membrane flicked across a shiny orb. Were those tears? "It'll save you a short while, anyway. It's the best I can do. I ... can't...." It turned and ran out of the brothel. Behind it, the human stared at the tail of the retreating Djinn. There, where he had not seen it, was the personal mark of Beleth. That explained things -- a Helpless. The nameless soul's keeper came in. "Okay, wretch. Time for a new customer. Scream nice now, hear?" "I'll... I want to pay off this one." His captor frowned. "I thought you were out of Essence. Have you been holding out on me?" With a dismissive shrug, the demon bent down. "Okay, gimme." The nameless soul passed across a measure of Essence, and the demon, sticking to the bargain for once, left to direct the customer to another hapless victim. The nameless soul leaned back against his wall. A moment's respite. It was all the Helpless could do, and all you could really hope for in Hell. - ---------- The Helpless It was an idea of Belial's, or so he claims, and he's certainly cruel enough to have come up with it. The slightly smarter heads in Hell think Kronos gave him the idea, since the Helpless tend to wander around Kronos' Archive a fair amount. At any rate, nearly every Prince has some, except Andrealphus (whose Servitors would quickly rack up Dissonance from it), Asmodeus (who rails against the project whenever possible) and Lilith (who never likes it being done to a Lilim). The Helpers are always created as full-fledged, if weak, demons, at 7 or 8 Forces -- 9, in the case of Lilim. They frequently have no Corporeal Forces, although Lilim may, and others might just possibly have developed them independently. They also, one and all, have Selfless/6, inflicted by their Superior. Their numbers are kept extremely low, and when the Game takes out one or two, no one finds it politic to complain. If they have no Corporeal Forces, they can never get to Earth, and those who do have them are refused the use of all Tethers, especially Beleth's Tower (refused to all but Beleth's own, kept inside the Tower itself). Their sole Realm is Hell. Their purpose in Hell is simple -- to do nothing, but not for lack of trying. How much can a single demon do? Six? A dozen? What does an (almost) utterly selfless being do when trapped in Hell, surrounded by misery and cut loose to do whatever they wish? at most, they can provide a moment's respite. They pass along Essence as much as they can; wise Princes will make few Impudite Helpless. Otherwise, they will occasionally prevent a lone demon or demonling from beating up on a human, or a damned soul for abusing another one, at least for as long as they can stay around. But even when they try to stay a long time with a favored soul, they are always off again, driven by their Discord to help more of the tortured. Why make selfless demons? Because they serve as examples -- bad ones. No matter how hard they try, their efforts are ultimately futile. Of course the damned spread rumors of the demons who just might come to your aid. It is also painfully apparent that they can never do anything of significance in that regard. Demons learn multiple lessons from watching these examples. One is that posing as someone friendly or helpful can be an easy way to gain trust for a quick betrayal, though the older damned don't fall for the trick of someone posing as a Helpless -- a good lesson in itself. It also reinforces Hell's propaganda line that if you want to do something and have the power to do it, you can -- after all, we even let these idiots run around trying to help people. Finally, many young watching demons gain evidence for their natural moral position that ultimately, selflessness is useless, or even causes more pain than it relieves -- after all, there are few other sources of selfless activity in Hell to examine. This alone is worth the expense of the Helpless' creation to most Princes. Dissenting Princes: Asmodeus dislikes the notion of demons with Discord, especially Selfless, wandering around Hell. He was the force behind the demand that the Helpless (a twisting of the name of Helpers given to Relievers) all be marked prominently with the sigil of their Prince. Andrealphus cannot make Helpless, since they would rapidly accumulate too much dissonance from his dissonance conditions unless he broke their Hearts, which is generally unsafe. He does, however, allow them free run of his areas in Shal-Mari. Lilith hates it when a Prince decides to "modify" a Lilim to this pattern, by inflicting Selfless/6 and sometimes stripping their Corporeal Forces. She will never fulfill a request specifically for a Lilim intended for this purpose. Adventure Uses Redemption: A Renegade demon, or one otherwise planning to Redeem, might be willing to try sneaking a Helpless through a Tether to go with them. Beleth's is the only one available, though, if the Helpless has no Corporeal Forces. Of course, that means that the "Helpless" might actually have decent Celestial Forces and a useful Resonance, or many Ethereal Forces and enough smarts to help out with an escape. A single PC can try running an "Escape From Hell" game. Alliance: The Helpless are banding together, meeting in secret places and coordinating efforts. This is strictly against The Rules, and the Game (and probably their Princes as well) will be sending investigation and hit squads to find them out and break them up. The demonic PC(s) can be either investigators, or Helpless trying to plan and coordinate something -- major sabotage of a Hellish plan, or a simple mass escape. Mole: An angelic PC can make contact with a Helpless by sheer accident on a fast mission to Hell, or hear rumors about them from a demon. Michaelites may try to recruit long-term moles, while other angels may attempt to break in to Hell and locate a Helpless for a quick Archangel-Invocation. This is quite an audacious plan, but the payoff can be well worth it. William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:09:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Helpless At 10:07 PM -0500 3/14/02, William J. Keith wrote: >[...] Lilith >(who never likes it being done to a Lilim). > > The Helpers are always created as full-fledged, if weak, demons, at >7 or 8 Forces -- 9, in the case of Lilim. Needs footnote -- Lilim aren't _created_ this way, but can (just as any other demon can) be inflicted with the Discord. (Mmm, punishment detail. I dunno, Andre might inflict it on one of his people who'd been kiling humans in ways more pleasing to Saminga than forwarding any sort of Lust...) [...] >Adventure Uses Summoned! -- Some sorcerer has managed to drag a Helpless to Earth in a random summoning. The sorcerer lucked out and got one with a Corporeal Force to its name -- and worse, managed to keep the demon there somehow. Bound to an artifact? Trapped in a Force Catcher? Used some of that clay-artifact-stuff-I-can't-believe-I'm-blanking-on-the-name-of? Who knows. But someone's going to be looking to find out... O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2576 ********************************