in_nomine-digest Saturday, April 13 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2599 In this digest: RE: IN> Weird thoughts IN> The Other Side of the Mythological Coin RE: IN> Weird thoughts IN> [ADMIN] A reminder of the K limit. IN> In Nomine-Medieval? Re: IN> Weird thoughts Re: IN> In Nomine-Medieval? Re: IN> In Nomine-Medieval? RE: IN> Weird thoughts RE: IN> Weird thoughts RE: IN> Weird thoughts IN> The Humanists (was Re: Weird thoughts) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:16:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Weird thoughts - --- "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" wrote: > Frankly I don't see much of a difference in what > you suggest and a Remnant. A Human knows what it is (though not necessarily where it came from); a Remnant does not. > The difference between having brain damage > because of a > catastrophic accident and performing a self lobotomy is > unclear to me. > > More importantly to the topic at hand, voluntarily > stripping off Forces for > the purpose of becoming Human sounds painful and damaging > to me. I don't > see any demon, no matter how much they want God's > "approval" being able to reduce themselves in power. I agree, hence my original reference to Kdaptists. For those who don't read Niven, the Kdaptists are a sect among the felinoid Kzinti. After being defeated by Humans in a series of wars -- in spite of being far superior to Humans physically -- some of the Kzinti came to the conclusion that Humans were somehow specially favored. This minority (which most Kzinti consider at best terribly perverse and at worst traitorous) formulated a religion by which Kzinti try to convince God that they are actually Human. Part of this practice involves killing Humans and using the facial skin to make masks, thus disquising themselves in the eyes of God (or so they believe). Kdaptists do not in any way give up their superior physical abilities, they just aspire to the appearance of Humanity. That's how I see demons going about such a religion; finding ways to convince the Symphony of their humanity. Those in service to Asmodeus have an unfair advantage in this regard, but there may be other ways -- and the Humanists would undoubtedly be out to find them. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "In film, the director is God. In documentaries, God is the director." - -- Alfred Hitchcock __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:36:40 -0500 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: IN> The Other Side of the Mythological Coin Lorraine - Habbalah of Myth Skipping the Intro and Overture Lorraine remained in Hell for centuries. Most of the Princes looked on her as little more than an extension of Beleth, even though some of Lorraine's best (so to speak) work came from these times. Dante's Inferno became much better known than Purgatorio or Paradisio, which were published at the same time. Legends of flat earth and sea monsters prevented mankind from travelling, and then when expansion became inevitable, legends of golden cities and youthful fountains sent men to slaughter their less technologically developed brethren. Myths of witches, werewolves and vampires turned Dominic's earthly Inquisition into a bloody victory for Hell. Everything else is covered under the Baseline version. Dissonance Restrictions As a Fallen Elohim, Lorraine still considered herself a servant of Heaven, so she didn't change her Dissonance restrictions much. Her servants were still not allowed to disabuse humans of their myths. They were not allowed to Soul Kill any Ethereals unless their own existence were threatened. They were allowed to torture, maim, punish and play with the Ethereals, just not allowed to kill them. And she wasn't all that picky about it if the Ethereal wasn't anyone important. BAND ATTUNEMENTS Balseraphs Unlike her heavenly duties, while Lorraine was Fallen, her word seemed like the perfect realm for the Liars, who strangely did not flock to her ranks. Perhaps it was because she was really just an extension of Beleth and afforded little in the way of prestige. Those few of the most Fallen of choirs who came into, or remained in, her service retained the bonus of their Ethereal Forces to their Fast Talk skill. They also gained a bonus equal to their Celestial Forces in any contest made in an attempt to defraud a living Religion. Their duties were to mangle the major religions and turn humans to the worship of Ethereals. Through exposing scandalous behavior in religious leaders or debunking the mysteries of the Abrahmaic religions, Lorraine's Balseraphs led the way. Two of them working in concert turned the entirety of Europe against the Templars by establishing rumors that the order had secreted away wealth gained in sacrilegious rituals. The few Seraphs that Fell with Lorraine also retained their "Angel's Wings" though they tended to look as if they were in perpetual molt. Djinn (Restricted) The Stalkers of Myth were her insurance of compliance from the Ethereals. They had the ability to attune to a concept or Ethereal, and instead of knowing information about that being, they know about those who are its greatest believers. They can then point out targets for death squads or lead other demons to important sites in the beings worship; places that if destroyed would weaken the ties to earth for the Ethereal they are attuned to. As a side effect, if a Djinn of Myth fails to remove an attunement to an Ethereal, he becomes one of it's most fervent worshipers. On a typical failure, the Djinn will do small rituals that favor the Ethereal and perhaps build a secret shrine to it. On a failure with a check digit of 6, the Djinn will go Outcast (or try to) and become a member of the Ethereal's servitors. There are still a few of these Djinn out there. Aphrodite it's said has a pair as bodyguards that she keeps on silver leashes. Calabim (Partially Restricted) If the Stalkers of Myth are the ones who Extort the Ethereals, then the Destroyers are the ones assigned to do the actual "legbreaking" part. Lorraine twisted her Malakim attunement and applies it to her Calabim. A Calabim of Myth may always engage in Ethereal Combat, though most have Songs that are effective anyways and their Resonance always works in the Ethereal. While engaged in combat within the Marches against either an Ethereal or an Angel, Calabim of Myth add their Ethereal Forces to either their attack difficulty or the check digit, declared before the roll is made. Lorraine is unable to prevent any harm from coming to her Calabim when they lose at Ethereal combat and any Ethereal Discords are subtracted from her Calabim's ability to activate their resonance on the Ethereal. She is exceptional cruel in punishing those who let their losses and subsequent Discords get in the way of succeeding at their tasks. She is infamous for stripping away Ethereal Discords and taking a Force or two along the way. Most of her Calabim were bullies of the worst sort and delighted in spending their off time out in the Marches, hunting down Ethereals and torturing them to the brink of non-existence. When they are in Hell, they can often be found in Shal-Mari, following visiting Ethereals around and trying to pick fights with them. Because the few Ethereals who actually come to visit Hell can kick the crap out of any three Calabim, Kobal keeps an eye on them and grabs the recordings for his private viewing pleasure. Habbalah (Partially Restricted) Freed from the demeaning task of subservience to the Ethereals, the Fallen Powers of Myth are directed to go into the Corporeal Realm and create newer and more grotesque mythological concepts. They torment writers and other artists and push them to creating lasting impressions of evil. They orchestrate sadistic and brutal murders in the pursuit of impacting as many human psyches as possible. When inflicting a human with their resonance, Haballah of Myth are capable of causing their emotion to become twisted and expressed in a mode that is in direct opposition of what it should be towards something they believe in. For example, a human who believes a site is sacred would be overwhelmed by a desire to vandalize it when affected by this resonance. A Haballah may invoke this form of their resonance without knowing exactly what the target believes in most, but this can turn awkward if they are not careful. A miser struck by this effect might start giving away his money in a sudden splurge of generosity. If the victim of the changed version of their resonance manages to throw it back at the Habbalah, instead of gaining Dissonance, the Punisher will take Soul Hits equal to the check digit rolled by their victim. Habbalah of Myth see nothing wrong with their abilities and find them perfectly in line with their status as "angelic" beings. They are only releasing mankind's truly disgusting nature for all to see. If a human wants to express their love for a mate or child by eternally preserving them with a coating with molten lead, then it's only fair to release the unnatural constraints that prevent it from doing so. (Editors note... this next part started as a good idea, but became more rules intensive than I like. Maybe I just don't have a good enough grasp of Habbalah to really get a feeling for a good twist on things here.) There is one other twist to a Habbalah's Attunement, one that makes Shedim turn green with envy. If a Habbalah successfully invokes his twisted resonance on a human and then immediately succeeds on a Will roll equal to their own successful check digit, then it may delay the effects of the roll for a number of days equal to it's Corporeal Forces. They can continue to delay the effects for as long as they can continue to make a resonance roll and then the follow on Will roll before the period of delay expires. In this manner they can succeed at delaying the release for weeks and if they are lucky, even months. But watch out when the levee breaks. During the delay period, the human so afflicted will show quirks as his subconscious festers and dwells in the murk of the Habbalic influence. When the Habbalah finally fails to make the follow on Will roll, or when it allows the delay period to end, the human will explode in a most grotesque and vile expression of perversion. Instead of being effected for hours or minutes, the person will enact on his twisted desires for days or even weeks. We're talking real Hannibal Lecter type behavior here. Murders that reenact the seven deadly sins or the plagues of Egypt are only the beginning. Lilim (Restricted) Lilim of Myth were able to add their Ethereal Forces to any Geas which supports belief in a myth or Ethereal concept. On an Infernal Intervention, the human so Geased will fall into nightmares at their next sleep period and spawn a number of new Ethereals, equal to the Lilim's total Forces. These spawn have a number of Forces equal to the Lilim's Celestial Forces. Any attempt by an agent of Dreams to move the dreamscape during this spawning period has the Lilim's total Forces as a penalty and any infernal interventions rolled by the angel result in Ethereal discord equal to the Human's Ethereal Forces. Lorraine's Lilim were given free reign on Earth, so long as they continued to promote a belief in Myths. They were encouraged to Geas as many humans as possible with the idea that more and meaner Ethereals could be spawned. Despite this attractive working relationship, very few Lilim entered into her ranks. Maybe Lilith saw that Lorraine had a deeply rooted Need to be redeemed, or maybe they just didn't care what humans believed in. ** ** ** ** Malakim and the Fallen Lorraine During the period when Lorraine Fell, many of her servants Fell as well. It is said that each splinter of her Heart sent up to the Higher Heavens also redeemed one of these Fallen servants, but no one can prove that. Needless to say, none of her Malakim Fell, but all were afflicted with an unusual Numinous Corpus. The Ethereal form for all of them became that of a skeletal angel with bloodstained wings of gray and black feathers. It had the effect of reducing all social interaction checks with Ethereals by the Malakim's Ethereal Forces. Humans sensed it on a subconscious level and were also affected if they were within a number of feet equal to the Malakim's Total Forces. The only exception to this was that Intimidation rolls for both Ethereals and Humans were increased by the Malakim's Ethereal Forces instead of reduced by it. Most Malakim petitioned for service to another Superior and had this problem stripped away by the changing of their allegiance. A handful sought refuge in service to Blandine or another Superior but and did not request the removal of this semi-Discord. When Lorraine redeemed, the Malakim's Ethereal forms returned to normal, but those who remained faithful can assume the "Death Angel" form when they desire. When they do so, they can choose a number of beings equal to their Ethereal Forces who will be affected as if they had been struck by Michael's "Howl" Attunement. Human, Ethereal or Celestial, all may be affected though Ethereals and Celestials with a higher number of Ethereal Forces than the Malakim may resist with a successful Will roll. Servants of Nightmare are Immune unless they roll a Divine Intervention; in which case they take Mind Hits equal to the Malakim's Ethereal Forces. Using this fearsome visage within a human Dreamscape automatically sends it deep into Beleth's realm. If it has to happen, the Malakim must do everything with it's power to return the dreamscape to Blandine's side and only Trauma has prevented them from succeeding so far. Assuming the Terror form just to get a quick hop into "enemy" territory is doubly Dissonant as it crosses Lorraine's purposes as well as their Malakite Oaths to protect humans. It annoys Blandine as well, to say the least. The one Malakim who has done for the sole purpose of getting across the Veil swiftly was put on loan to Novalis, where she has spent the last century unlearning some of her more violent tendencies. ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** Malakim and the Servants of Fallen Myth Lorraine's Malakim, even those who changed Superiors, were always able to detect any servants of Fallen Myth on sight. No perception roll, no need for a Resonance check; they could tell when they were in the presence of one of the servitors of their Fallen mistress. The Malakim Attunement of adding their Ethereal Forces to their attacks or check digits was reawakened when engaged in combat with any of the servants of Fallen Myth. ** ** ** ** Shedim (Restricted) With fewer assignments involving the Ethereals, Lorraine's Shedim had even less to do. Habbalah were adept at creating perverse myths and Balseraphs responsible for perverting religions on a much wider scale than the one to one ability of possession. Instead they are assigned to discrediting Ethereals. Shedim of Myth had the ability to possess Ethereals, on the Ethereal plane. The Ethereal is "along for the ride" just as any human would be, and can contest actions which would corrupt it, just like a human, but the Shedim adds it's Ethereal Forces to all possession and Will contests. They also add this bonus to any attempt to possess a human who is acting in behalf of an Ethereal or disguised as one. They really enjoy being Santa Claus; all the pretty young girls will sit in their laps! Between the threat of a Shedite possession of their major religious leaders and a combined Cherebim-Calabim threat on their holy sites, most Ethereals quickly fold their cards and do what Hell wishes. Impudite (Restricted) Lorraine only slightly twisted her Mercurian Attunement, making it applicable to her Impudites natural Resonance. On a successful Perception roll an Impudite can tell which beliefs are held most strongly by a single human. The check digit of this roll is then applied to attempts to charm and draw essence from that Human, so long as the attempt is made within a number of hours equal to the Imp's Ethereal Forces. This check digit is also added to the charm's duration. Impudites also could add their Ethereal Forces to any attempt to cast doubts on a particular belief that a charmed human holds. They are unable to strengthen a belief, only help destroy them. RELATIONS Lorraine, as a Habbalah, was Gramma's lil girl. Or "That sniveling little bootlicker" if you listened to Baal. She did what Beleth told her and considered all of Beleth's organization as fellow Angels. See, she wasn't even in Hell! She was just in a different part of the Marches. Everyone else considered her one of Beleth's servants and left it pretty much at that. The only difference is that Kobal thought her servitors that ended up in Hell were terribly funny and Vapula wanted them for dissection. BASIC RITES Spend two hours at a museum exhibit dedicated to myth or mythology. Spend four hours with an Ethereal, talking, fighting, whatever Disrupt a dominant religion's ceremony (+3 for annual ceremonies) CHANCE of INVOCATION 1 Asmodeous held only a marginally greater opinion of Lorraine than Dominic and only her unimportance in the "Grand Scheme" allows him to tolerate her interference in the Corporeal plane. +1 -A copy of "Dracula" or "Frankenstein" or "The Strange Case of Doctor Jekel and Mister Hyde" +2 -A human who is reading "Dracula" or "Frankenstein" or "The Strange Case of Doctor Jekel and Mister Hyde" for the very first time. +3 -A person over the age of twelve who still believes in "The Boogey Man" +4 -A copy of the Necronomicon in the hands of a believer who doesn't know HP Lovecraft made it up. +5 -An Artifact created by an Ethereal Spirit. +6 -A copy of "Dracula" or "Frankenstein" or "The Strange Case of Doctor Jekel and Mister Hyde" signed by, either the proper author, or Bela Lagosi, Boris Karloff or Lon Chaney respectively. Superior Opinions First is listed the Superior in question, followed by Lorraine's thoughts. Andrealphus "Who? Oh, I'm kidding, she keeps tabs on so many things for us. While we're on the subject, let me write out a message and you can have her deliver it to Aphrodite for me." (Many myths are born from Lust. It's one of the driving passions of the subconscious. And he's easy enough to work around.) Asmodeus "She brought some valuable intelligence and her servitors do what they're told by Beleth. In fact, she brought a good deal of coordination to the whole Ethereal front. Fear has never been a good organizer." (Chessmaster, Power Behind the Throne, Loyal Chamberlain. Tell me, Gamesman, which myth is it you wish to embody?) Baal "The Ethereal is a mess, Beleth too caught up in her plots to run things the way they should, and this little simpering twit isn't helping at all. We don't need the pantheons sucking up Essence that belongs to us, we want them serving us." (I forge the Old Powers into grand weapons to release on Heaven and our foremost General complains? Or is he afraid of becoming redundant?) Beleth "My Granddaughter obeys me. She speaks with my will" (Grandmother only sees one aspect of the Marches, whereas my angels and I serve her by using all the tools god has given to us.) Belial "She's got a bit of fire to her, unlike Beleth. Still, she's not really my concern. She did get Agni to come over and show me a few tricks with burning monks." (How many Myths involving the taming of Fire? He is too single-minded to realize how many of his actions strengthen me.) Haagenti "I didn't use to like her but then she found this cow horn and it had food that just kept falling out of it." >>Buurrrrrrrrrraaap<< "It was too slow, I ate the whole horn." (Useless little piggy, Circe's prediction of males given the form of a Demonic Prince. He's about as useful as the Monster Under the Bed. And not half as smart.) Kobal "Hehehehe... her punks crack me up! Have you ever seen Kali pull the arms and legs off a Calabim? She has six arms, yanno. One for each limb and two for holding the torso still while she yanks." >hehehehe< "I laughed so hard I fell off the john." (Not much common cause with this one, and Grammama thinks he's not worth our time to bother.) Kronos "The Fate of nearly every Pantheon includes some form or another of a Ragnarok. She'd be a waste of power to raise to her current stature, but since Uriel led her to a Fate it is Heaven's loss. I'm sure she's some use, even if it's just a distraction from what's important." (He thinks everything can be predicted from one man. It is the subconscious of ALL men that births Myths. He has the name of the foremost Titan and yet still he doesn't see Myth's powers.) Malphas "Bah, I liked her better up in Heaven. Her very presence created divisions within the ranks. I wonder if I should help that fellow gather her pieces faster and get her back where she belongs, causing headaches for Dominic and Laurence." (He always seems helpful. Finally someone realizes the importance of my position. He's already pointed out a few places where Gramma's people are holding Words that should be mine.) Nybbas "Before my time, man. Where have you been bubby?" (Nybbas came to power after Lorraine Redeemed) Saminga "Even the Myths die. You don't believe me? I can show you the skull of Baldur if you want. Too bad, those Aztecs really knew how to do a religion, carving out hearts, decapitations and eviscerations! Give me that old time Religion any day!" (The Lords of the Nile remember this one. They quail to think that they had a chance to destroy him and missed it. I often wish they had, he wastes so much potential for increasing my power) Valefor "Her Word steals souls from heaven, she's a woman after my own heart. She's much easier to approach than Beleth when I need something done in the Marches. And like most Habbalah, work with her delusions and she's eating out of your hand. " (He has a fairly good working relationship with several Pantheons and respects my authority. He supports me and I support him) Vapula "Her Word is fairly useless. Progress extinguishes Myth. But she did bring some enlightening information that I keep meaning to put some thought too. I just need a double dozen humans in a coma." (Old Myths give way to new ones. He doesn't realize that most humans have even less understanding about technology than they did about where the lightening came from. Just keep doing your job, Mad Scientist, and you give me power just by being you.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:54:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Weird thoughts At 3:35 PM -0500 4/12/02, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Prodigal [mailto:prodigal@allamagoosa.org] > >From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" >> >> Doesn't everyone in Heaven and Hell pity the Remnants? Who would >> voluntarily become one? > >> A Remnant is a different thing altogether, though - they are less than >both >> celestials and humans. > >> It just strikes me as logical that a being that thinks it is doing God's >> Will, will face at least some temptation to become even more worthy of His >> love than it already is. > >Less than Celestial, more than Human. More -- and less. A mortal human will still survive the death of the body. A remnant will not. (Further, most humans have at least a LITTLE Will and Perception, which most Remnants don't.) >More importantly to the topic at hand, voluntarily stripping off Forces for >the purpose of becoming Human sounds painful and damaging to me. I don't >see any demon, no matter how much they want God's "approval" being able to >reduce themselves in power. Demons are insane -- some of them even want to change Words to better ones, if they don't like being the Demon of Small Things That Squish Underfoot! Admittedly, losing a Word is like ripping your arm off slowly without painkillers, but... >Selflessness is required to humble yourself. What you are proposing >requires the Habbalah Habbalite. The Singular is Habbalite. >trust that even in a reduced or weakened state that >God will protect him. Or you could come at it from the other side -- a Habbalite crazy enough to believe that this is a _macho_ thing to do. "Whazza matter, tattoo-boy? Too scared?" Not _ALL_ Habbalah are going to have this brand of lunacy, but while Habbalah all claim to be angels (and presumably the vast majority will not let themselves believe anything else, especially not out loud where the others might hear), they're hardly united on exactly what they're doing in Hell or how they should do it. A small, REAL crazy splinter "sect," formed around a charismatic Habbalite could easily form. Now, if the charismatic leader can maintain this for _long_ enough... Who knows when this started? Who knows how many might be on Earth, even now? *cue evil laughtrack* - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:04:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] A reminder of the K limit. Posts over 10K per day are not acceptable. There is _some_ give here, but 33K and 22K posts are NOT permitted to be posted all in the same day. There is _some_ flex to this. 20+K is way above the flex. The reason for this is that such huge posts fill up email boxes and generate bounces. There are a lot of s u b s c r i b e r s who have email limits. I will even let some of them "ride" a bounce or two, to see if they can catch up quickly. If huge posts are broken up into 10K PER DAY chunks, then there is at least a day between large chunks, where the s u b s c r i b e r can check his or her or its email and clean out the box, and the chances are lessened that there will be enough bounces for me to u n s u b s c r i b e that person. So, a reminder. 10K per day for large posts. Or else I get REALLY snitty. - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:58:09 -0400 From: "Jeremy Smith" Subject: IN> In Nomine-Medieval? I am almost certain that someone has at least given some thought to running an In Nomine campaign in the Middle Ages here. The two simply seem to fit together rather well, and are a welcome respite from the "Oh no! The Armageddon approaches!" campaigns. I'm doing the same and I'm mining around for ideas (especially from people who have a good grasp of that period of history). Let me give a brief summary of what's done so far, and ask for suggestions: After a fair bit of research, I decided to set the campaign in 1234 Europe. That's slightly after King John of Robin Hood fame and slightly before King Edward I of Braveheart fame. The crusades (conflicts between Laurence and Gabriel with the Demons laughing and Michael stuck in between) are something of an institution that is beginning to whind down, and the Medieval Inquisition just started a couple of years before (insteresting political conflicts between Asmodeus and Dominic here). Gunpowder exists in China, but firearms are not in use yet. This is the height of pre-firearm weapons, armor, and strategy-Knights in plate armor, castles (David must love these) and cathedrals propping up everywhere, that kind of thing. The nation-states in Europe are beginning to form, but have not fully stabilized yet. Spain just united in 1215. Cities are becoming more and more prominent as disease ridden sources of freedom (Lilith loves them), but most people still live under the basic feudal system in small villages. Paris has more than 100,000 residents and England has more than 50,000. England and France are slowly determining their boundaries. Germany and Italy are involved in a war/civil war/set of assasinations which could only make Malphas proud. Two future Saints (in the Catholic sense, not the In Nomine one) are king at this time: Louis IX in France and Philip II in Spain. Louis IX is busy oppressing and generally kicking the pagans out of France. Philip II is doing the same with the Moors in Spain. List of Interesting folk of the time: Dominic-The Saint, not the Archangel. He actually died about eight years earlier, but I would like to bring him back as an important Saint. His monks help run the Medieval Inquisition, and it makes sense to make Dominic a servitor of his namesake and a heaven/earth liason in the Inquisition. Francis-A Saint who walked around for twenty years giving everything he had to the poor and therefore becoming quite poor himself. Francis also died before the campaign begins, but once again makes for an interesting Saint possibility. Robert Grosseteste-"Robert Big Head" Born in the 1150s, this guy lived well into his eighties. He was a teacher to Roger Bacon, and pioneered the idea of using mathematics to assist scientific observations. This guy must either be a Soldier of Lightning or an outright angel. Roger Bacon-He's only fourteen in the campaign. Currently a student of the guy above. Thomas Aquinas-And I believe he's about 9. Louis IX-already mentioned Philip II-already mentioned Frederick II-Too difficult to explain him briefly. He is the excommunicated Holy Roman Emperor in the German lands. Frederick II is famous for having gone to the East and negotiating to become King of Jerusalem as well in 1229. This was a "diplomatic crusade" and probably confused Laurence a great deal. Henry III-King of what is slowly becoming England. Ghengis Kahn-His empire is beginning to make headway into Europe. Unfortunately, he died recently. His grandson, Kublai Kahn will eventually bring about a second wave of Mongol terror, but right now, some boring administrator runs this empire. And, of course, there are the myriad princes, dukes, knights, and crusaders (the Templars, Hospitallers, and Teutonic Knights all exist and are holding strong). These I will mostly make up. As far as historical accuracy goes, I think it's best to make a convincing, complete world without becoming obsessive about who ruled over some random Fief of land in southwest Germany. I'm going to cut this off, because if you've read this far, you have a longer attention span than many. Ideas? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:56:28 -0400 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> Weird thoughts > > That's the default mindset, true. But all Habbalah believe that they are > > doing God's work, after all, and if some of them started to reach the > > conclusion that He loves humans best, and that in order to properly serve > > Him, they need to become more worthy of His love... > >I thought that a key pillar of the Habbalah mindset was losing your >objectivity to the point where you couldn't ever seriously entertain the >notion that you were *not* entirely worthy of God's love already, simply by >doing what you were doing. The Habbalah capacity for rationalization and >self-justification is legendary, after all. Well, how about the possibility the Habbalah in question want to become human because they will do a better job than the current batch God's stuck with? If God cares about these monkeys so much, he deserves at least to have a race of them that are more worthy of such an honor. Sure, it's a sacrifice, but so's working through Hell to accomplish the Lord's work. Put that way, it makes perfect sense from the Habbalah perspective; it's a logical answer if any of them finally decided humanity was so weak that it could not be salvaged. - -- Mike Bruner-- mbruner18@home.com Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day. Give a hobbit a ring and he eats fish for an age. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:58:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine-Medieval? - --- Jeremy Smith wrote: > Cities are becoming more and > more prominent as disease ridden sources of freedom Not necessarily. One needn't have been a serf in the fields to have one's freedom curtailed; indenture, arranged marriages and governmental oppression all survived in the fledgling cities (the latter even increased). The rise of the middle class -- and the forces that drove it -- suggests that Marc and Mammon were the major players here. And the adjective "disease-ridden" suggests that Makatiel (if he was still around in that time period -- no books with me again) was another power behind urbanization. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "In film, the director is God. In documentaries, God is the director." - -- Alfred Hitchcock __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:36:43 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine-Medieval? I have never thought about running it, since a) my knowledge of history isn't good enough and b) I'm already running a PBEM, but I have always thought the Middle Ages was an excellent place for an In Nomine campaign, and if *you* decide to run a PBEM please let me know. (Yes, Moe, I do remember about that project. I often think about it, haven't done anything much with it, but suspect I'll be getting more and more inspired as spring progresses.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:08:29 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: RE: IN> Weird thoughts On 12 Apr 2002, 15:35, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > Less than Celestial, more than Human. They still may have songs and the > like. Frankly I don't see much of a difference in what you suggest and a > Remnant. The difference between having brain damage because of a > catastrophic accident and performing a self lobotomy is unclear to me. Humans can have Songs too, and be Symphonically Aware. Remnants are way down on the metaphysical totem pole. Poor things are called Remnants for a reason. :( > More importantly to the topic at hand, voluntarily stripping off Forces > for the purpose of becoming Human sounds painful and damaging to me. I > don't see any demon, no matter how much they want God's "approval" being > able to reduce themselves in power. Reduce? I suppose from a certain perspective. OTOH, a Human can also become a Saint... and some crazy demon that thinks it's an angel might also be crazy enough to try replacing its own Forces with those from Saints (how these are obtained are a whole other story). Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:36:53 -0500 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Weird thoughts - -----Original Message----- From: Shane [mailto:magi.lists@quietdawn.org] On 12 Apr 2002, 15:35, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > Less than Celestial, more than Human. They still may have songs and the > like. Frankly I don't see much of a difference in what you suggest and a > Remnant. The difference between having brain damage because of a > catastrophic accident and performing a self lobotomy is unclear to me. Humans can have Songs too, and be Symphonically Aware. Remnants are way down on the metaphysical totem pole. Poor things are called Remnants for a reason. :( They are still a step above humans on the metaphysical totem pole. Humans are unaware of the greater Symphony unless someone opens them up to it. Remnants may have been damaged, but they are still Celestial beings. The reason they are pitied is because of what they have lost. But that's not really the point of the discussion. > More importantly to the topic at hand, voluntarily stripping off Forces > for the purpose of becoming Human sounds painful and damaging to me. I > don't see any demon, no matter how much they want God's "approval" being > able to reduce themselves in power. Reduce? I suppose from a certain perspective. OTOH, a Human can also become a Saint... and some crazy demon that thinks it's an angel might also be crazy enough to try replacing its own Forces with those from Saints (how these are obtained are a whole other story). Shane. Yes. Reduce. The original post mentioned stripping off your own forces as part of the process. Reducing from a nine force being to a four or five force being so that you could pass for human. That's a reduction in power. I do not see a large number of celestials attempting this. I don't see a demon ever having the humility required to do this. I can't imagine how a creature so selfish as to deny God when they have heard The Symphony ever allowing it and a demon who had never been in heaven and never known god would never have the point of reference on humanity and humility to ever come up with it. I don't see how stripping away your own Forces can be considered anything other than a redcution in power. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:48:26 -0300 From: "vez o'rama" Subject: RE: IN> Weird thoughts >From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" >Subject: RE: IN> Weird thoughts >Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:36:53 -0500 >I don't see how stripping away your own Forces can be considered anything >other than a redcution in power. How about a misguided attempt at self-redemption by a sincerely insane renegade? Just a thought :) - - vez _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 14:01:10 -0000 From: "EDG" Subject: IN> The Humanists (was Re: Weird thoughts) As the original poster, I'm going to try to clear this up. Please note that while the Humanists themselves are certainly not canon, anything I say here is canon WITHIN THE CONCEPT, simply because it's my idea. :P Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > Yes. Reduce. The original post mentioned stripping off your own forces > as part of the process. Reducing from a nine force being to a four or five > force being so that you could pass for human. That's a reduction in power. > I do not see a large number of celestials attempting this. I don't see a > demon ever having the humility required to do this. I can't imagine how a > creature so selfish as to deny God when they have heard The Symphony ever > allowing it and a demon who had never been in heaven and never known god > would never have the point of reference on humanity and humility to ever > come up with it. There is NO humility involved in this process. The fundamental precept of Humanism (in Hell, anyway) is that the demons rebelled primarily because God loved the humans more than He loved them, and all they want to do is get God to love them best. The Humanists figure that the best way to do that is to turn themselves into humans. THERE IS NO HUMILITY OR SELFLESSNESS INVOLVED. The Humanists are turning themselves into humans *for the sole reason that they want God's love*; they are selfish creatures, so much so that they are willing to take a step that most demons won't even *consider* in order to achieve their goals. The Force-stripping is effectively scarification on a grand scale. There is no humility involved; there is a recognition that nine-Force humans are atypical, and that there's a chance that if a successful Humanist stands out, God might figure out what they're doing and hate them even more for it. Dropping to five Forces is a self-defense mechanism. Lastly, Humanism is something that originated with demons who were once angels who Fell in the Rebellion. It is NOT restricted to Habbalah. It is also NOT restricted to those ancient original demons; any demon who sympathizes with the original causes might join. > I don't see how stripping away your own Forces can be considered anything > other than a redcution in power. This is true. Temporal power is definitely decreased. However, becoming a human allows the demon to bask again within God's love, and maybe - just maybe, if they're good enough at it - to get back into Heaven. (Note that this is almost never the case - at least, not on the first go- round. I imagine that any successful Humanist's fate is going to be "have been a demon", so that even if they achieve their destiny they'll either reincarnate or disperse. On the *second* go-round, though...) (Not that any of them know this.) - -EDG ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2599 ********************************