in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 7 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2626 In this digest: IN> Crosstraining, Part II Re: IN> I admit that she'd be difficult to portray in a game... Re: IN> I admit that she'd be difficult to portray in a game... Re: IN> I admit that she'd be difficult to portray in a game... Re: IN> Alternate Factions Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part II RE: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part II Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part I IN> Oh caffiene, thou art my darling Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) IN> Seraphim of Flowers IN> Kyrio Trix Re: IN> Oh caffiene, thou art my darling Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Re: IN> Kyrio Trix IN> David and Peace Re: IN> Kyrio Trix Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Re: IN> David and Peace Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Re: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers Re: IN> Kyrio Trix Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers IN> Kyrios^n (Re: Seraphim of Flowers) Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) IN> Acquiring Core Books (Re: Alternate Factions) Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part I Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) RE: IN> A Sequel... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 23:41:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Crosstraining, Part II Crosstraining, Part II Haagenti looked back. "Don't tell me, let me guess. Two plates, next Festival? Maybe a sprig of parsley on top? Don't flatter yourself, Archangel: the food's good, but it isn't worth a War down there." Laurence's tone was clipped. "Maybe not that food." The Archangel brought his own bag (a briefcase) onto the table. "But there are other foods. No?" It was at this point that Laurence actually understood what Marc had been getting at when he had compared negotiations to the tensing before a formal duel. Haagenti's eyes had flickered from the briefcase to Laurence's face, then back to the briefcase, then once more to meet Laurence's gaze. The Prince of Gluttony was trying to maintain his earlier bravado... and the Archangel of the Sword realized with a certain pleasure that he was going to fail. Haagenti knew what was in that briefcase, and he knew that he was going to take this job for Heaven - but he didn't know that Laurence was reading him like a book. When the Archangel of the Sword decided that the time was right (and how odd it was to use his battle reflexes in such a situation!), he opened the briefcase. The faint smell of chocolate chips - and something else, something Divinely rich and nourishing - - filled the spring air. "One hundred of them, Prince of Gluttony. I saw her put them in the briefcase myself. I even had one from the batch, and did she outdo herself this time! One hundred now, and a hundred more when the tenth Tether implodes. No tricks, no later ambushes - and we will not let it get out that you were involved. I swear it, on my honor as an Archangel and as a Malakite. You can even have one now, if you are worried that we are trying to trick you." Was there the faintest hint of hoarseness in Haagenti's throat? "No. I'd know that smell anywhere." He paused. "Eight, did you say?" "Ten." "Right, right, ten." The Prince of Gluttony's face worked. "A hundred now, and a hundred and fifty later." "A hundred and ten, and you make sure that at least twenty Word-bound demons go to Trauma from the blast." "A hundred and forty, with five Word-bound demons." "A hundred and twenty, with fifteen." "Split the difference." "Done. One hundred now, one hundred and thirty later for ten Tethers and ten Word-bound." "Do they have to be Belial's?" "An extra five for every one that is not, up to the ten. No extras, but feel free to be enthusiastic about it anyway." Haagenti actually grinned. "Fat chance... about the extras." Marc interjected smoothly at this point. "So, if it's all settled... both of you please sign here." ... Afterwards, the two Archangels sat again in Marc's tent. This time, there was a bottle and two glasses: Malakim may not see any Virtue in carbonated beverages, but they can see the point of alcohol. Marc smiled. "How's your conscience, Lord Laurence?" "Not ... too active, Lord Marc. Tell me, do you do that often?" "No. The trouble with dealing with The Other Side is that they either can't really remember what it's like to be honest, or else never learned how in the first place. So, unless you have something that they want, more than anything else in the world, and can't get - there's no place to make a deal. Even the first First Woman..." "You can use her name, Lord Marc." "Thank you: the circumlocutions can be awkward. Even Lilith can't be trusted unless you first make her staple her promises to her soul, with the understanding that you'll rip them out if she crosses you." The Archangel of Trade looked sad for a moment. "Personally, I find that - well, disgusting. "Even when you have that unique item, well, most of the time one doesn't really want to actually give it away to somebody who will just abuse it." The Archangel smiled. "However, I can bear to hand over two hundred and eighty chocolate chip manna cookies in exchange for ten Tethers of Infernal Fire destroyed and ten Word-bound demons contemplating their Hearts for a while." The Archangel of the Sword stirred. "Do you actually think that he will follow through with the deal?" "Of course. Didn't you see the way that he clutched that briefcase? Haagenti will take them back, savor them for as long as he can ... then, once he's done with them, the thought that he could get more will make him more than eager to live up to his part of the bargain. He'll keep his mouth shut about it, too - I really don't think that he wants his colleagues to know that particular weakness. Unless you want to renege?" Laurence's eyes narrowed. "Do not tempt me ... but, no, I keep my word. Besides, I like the idea of having a hold on a Demon Prince. Especially one that can be bribed with one day's worth of cooking." "Well, that just goes to show. Buy low, sell high." Marc laughed, then grew more serious. "Don't count on that happening again anytime soon, Commander. Haagenti isn't as stupid as he looks. There's a part of him that knows that he's allowed his weakness to overcome him, and he probably won't let himself get carried away again. Still, the look on his face when he gets that second batch... who knows, possibly it might actually make him think a little about the side he's chosen. I don't really think so, but you can't win if you don't try." Marc sipped his wine. "That's another lesson." "One I already knew, but I thank you anyway. May I ask you a question, Lord Marc?" At the other's nod, Laurence went on. "I know what I got from this Trade: an idea of what your Word entails, which will help me immeasurably. I have also seen that you are to be trusted, even when you are deeply enmeshed in the world. But, I must know, seeing as I will use this knowledge to make you even busier - are you happy with this Trade? What have you gotten out of this?" Marc thought for a moment, sipping the last of the wine. "Well, aside from the undeniable pleasure of teaching - - and may I say that you soaked up your lessons quite well; I might have given in at a hundred and fifty - it's nice to know that one is truly appreciated, or even Truly appreciated, as our Seraphic colleagues would say." His voice grew more somber. "Since Eli left, it has been a bit awkward at times. What if I someday felt the same need to half-abandon Heaven so as to experience my Word directly? I don't think that I would, but it's hard to tell when you can't even really count on your own Choir-mates to give you feedback. But, knowing that I can contribute, am contributing and am trusted to keep contributing helps. It really does - and for that, I thank you, Lord Laurence." Marc's eyes twinkled. "Besides, I called you 'Larry' for a whole week and got away with it clean. There really are some things that money can't buy..." ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 04:51:53 -0600 From: "Wade Lahoda" Subject: Re: IN> I admit that she'd be difficult to portray in a game... > " Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: > Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, > half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete, > fully-thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads to > more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all > ead." -- Gen. Richard E. Hawley (Ret) http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/hawley.htm Just figured I should point this out, that the quote from this Gen Hawley is not actually from him. Supposedly, Hawley has asked people to forward around his response to the words attributed to him. Said response is found in the link about, as well as an explaination of the real origins of the quote(a humourist called Larry Miller). I'm just a Canadian, so I have no clue who this Gen. Hawley is, but I figured I'd point out that that quote is misattributed... ObIN: Hrm... Demon of Misattribution. Doesn't just have to be for quotes, obviously("So you heard about that murder that happened on the south side? Heard it was a drug-related killing...police arrested a guy named [insert name of local Angelic role here]..."). Kronos, I think - although Asmodeous(he-he), Valefor and possibly Kobal are other possible Superiors. Balseraph would be the obvious choice. Although many people on this list seem to have a problem making a character the 'obvious' choice as far as Band/Choir go, so a good second, less-obvious choice, might be Djinn. Probably a rival of the Demon of Taking Credit for Someone Else's Work...probably because the Demon of Taking Credit for Someone Else's Work is alway trying to take credit for his work. ;) A. Wade Lahoda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 08:05:14 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> I admit that she'd be difficult to portray in a game... > I'm just a Canadian, so I have no clue who this Gen. Hawley is, but I > figured I'd point out that that quote is misattributed... Huh. I never thought to check Snopes. Thanks for the heads-up. I won't stop using the quote, of course. I'll just correctly attribute it. ;) - -- Casca " Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete, fully-thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all ead." -- Larry Miller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 05:55:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> I admit that she'd be difficult to portray in a game... - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > Sachluph > Cherub Friend of the Gardeners > Angel of Profanity [thump!] [reels jaw back in] ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 06:00:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Factions - --- WonderGecko wrote: > Now, does anyone have an idea where, outside of Warehouse > 23, I might be > able to acquire the core rulebooks? E-bay sometimes has IN books for sale. Local game stores can also order the stuff for you if it's not in stock. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 06:12:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part II One of your better ones, Moe. I especially liked the last line. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:06:53 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> A Sequel... - -----Original Message----- From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] "You used me as bait, in order to kill," Rose sputtered in his outrage. "Just as a venus flytrap does," Azzur replied calmly, "But if it helps salve your conscience, we don't plan on killing any of the other Hellspawn we captured, although I'm certain that they will wish that we'd just killed them, before we're through. They're far more valuable to us as sources of information than as corpses." *** I still don't see the problem here. It's not a real death, just a vessel. Yes, it's a violent solution, so Novalis disapproves, but they ain't corpses (except the shedite) just vessels. Killing a vessel is a set back for a demon, not a final solution. And if it has another vessel prepared, you've just lost track of where he is; leaving him safe to continue his plans. Killing vessels, even for Swordies, should never be considered a solution, only a means of slowing demons down. Solution should be redemption or soul death. But this scenario seems, to me, like a way to make Novalis majorly upset. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:11:12 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) At 06:52 PM 5/6/02 -0400, you wrote: > And again, by the setup it is harder for the average angel to resist > than the average demon, which to me is inexcusable in a angelic power > (unless you run a Dark campaign and Novalis has a hidden interest in > making sure every angelic group is forced to resort to nonviolence first, > no matter the risk to the angels in question...). Every Kyriotate has this problem. *One-seventh* of the *entire body of the Heavenly Host* has a *natural, God-given ability* that is harder for an angel to resist than a demon. *Every Song* that requires a Will roll to resist is harder for an angel to resist than a demon. *Every time* a celestial needs to ascend to his celestial realm, a demon will have it easier than an angel. (Note the Will roll needed to ascend.) By contrast, a little less than one percent of all angels, all things being equal and assuming 16 Archangels, have the Seraph of Flowers attunement. In summary: I'm afraid I don't agree with your point, sir. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:18:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part II Moe, I do hope you intend to continue this series with ALL of the other Superiors. Personally, I am looing forward to the lessons Laurence learns from Eli and Blandine. :) Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:51:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part I There has been a spate of excellent fan-fic on the list lately, and this is part of it. Thanks, Moe. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 12:11:09 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: IN> Oh caffiene, thou art my darling I must have stumbled across some of this stuff this morning. I can't stop shaking, but I've had three great IN ideas in as many hours. Relic: Jean's Flask It looks like a simple hip flask, but made of spun aluminum and with an interior coating of ceramic, as if a lab used it to transport reactive substances. It does. Every morning, the relic brews a flask of coffee. It can be piping hot or iced, with as much cream and sugar as the drinker wishes, but this must be decided before the flask is opened and the coffee poured. The kind of coffee the flask makes depends on what level it is.... A level 1 flask brews regular coffee, up to double espresso. Level 2 and above brew Jean's Special Blend (http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/inc-new/Objects/Artifacts/jeansbl end.html) at a level equal to Relic: a Flask/2 brews Coffee/1, and so forth. A Flask/6 is capable of safely transporting Coffee/5. In fact, each Flask has an armor value equal to its level. Cost: I don't have the books in front of me, but considering that Jean's Special Blend is restricted to Lightning Servitors, a Flask/3 or higher is pretty expensive. Some kind of logarithmic scale is probably in order. - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 12:16:36 -0400 From: Eric Eves Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) > Every Kyriotate has this problem. > > *One-seventh* of the *entire body of the Heavenly Host* has a *natural, > God-given ability* that is harder for an angel to resist than a demon. > > *Every Song* that requires a Will roll to resist is harder for an angel > to resist than a demon. True, however, these things are only targeted by choice, they don't get sprayed automatically at anyone within range of the user. Thus, angels using them presumably won't be hurting other angels with them. This is different from the attunement, as you can see. > > *Every time* a celestial needs to ascend to his celestial realm, a demon > will have it easier than an angel. (Note the Will roll needed to ascend.) True, but that's a fact of the way the setting works, not an ability deliberately created by and bestowed upon angels. > > By contrast, a little less than one percent of all angels, all things > being equal and assuming 16 Archangels, have the Seraph of Flowers > attunement. Yes, but every one of them is more useful to the demons than to the angels in a close combat situation they're at, even if they don't want to be. Some might find that to be less than a good thing. - -Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 13:12:50 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Seraphim of Flowers >I've always thought that the "Peace faction" held >Blandine, Marc, Litheroy, Eli and Yves, with Zadkiel > (Eli ends up being seen as warlike fairly often, David has a strong Peace thing going, too. He can't throw the first punch, so the other guy has to initiate violence. >(sure, I imagine it's POSSIBLE to have completely non-combat >roleplaying games, Amber Diceless makes a good try. When you KNOW you won't win you take pains to avoid a fight. Nobody beats Benedict. Nobody. (Nobody beats Michael?) >> I have SERIOUS qualms with letting someone play something that >> practically demands everybody else's character be a complete pacifist too! >It doesn't. They can either move out of range or make their Will rolls. "I dare you to step outside and say that, Malakite." >It's _supposed_ to be a headache. Seraphim of Flowers exude peace. It's >not supposed to be something they can turn off whenever it would be >convenient to let their friends open a can of whoop-ass. Hooray! At last someone understands. Being a GunBunny is so mishugina. As trees and grasses prevent rain from washing away soil, Novalis' great strength is the prevention of spiritual erosion. Defense! Defense! >> Rose sat down in her chair again as the demons continued to plot >> and plan, sipping their tea and eating her homemade biscuits. It wasn't >> long before, as she'd suspected he would, the Shedite nodded off. Gluttony >> had taken its toll, and the Shedite had gotten a much larger dose of the >> soporific into his system. >Causing Rose dissonance. Not for drugging them; for killing the Shedite's >host. Enough soporifics to render a Shedite unconscious (which boots him out >of his host) will be instantly fatal for the poor hobo. There are different kinds of drugs. Opiates can easily kill on an overdose. Hallucinogenics generally won't. (Pardon my lack of medical expertise, I'm just a web monkey.) This is why you hear stories of kids swallowing bottles full of stuff and surviving. Of course, if the host is allergic to the drug you're in a race against time to get to the hospital. >Also, as a Glutton, the Shedite will have used his Consume on both Rose and >Bob - both to avoid his daily dissonance, and as a habit from dealing with >demons of Drugs & Poison. There's a reason Gluttons aren't all addicts. What? She put a Mickey Finn in her own glass? >> Rose won't understand a word being said - but the >>Symphony knows all, and it is the Symphony that Rose is consulting for >>help in learning the Truth. >This only works with Really High check digits, I tend to rule. (And EDG's >little CD chart is about the way I'd break it down, too. When'd he get >some of my headguts?) I might be even more harsh. O:> I always thought that it was Fact in the Symphony vs Personal Opinion. Fact: "This cheese stinks." (The air is filled with free aromatics.) Opinion: "This cheese stinks." (I don't like it.) "I have the strength of ten because my Heart is intact." - Pete Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 13:12:55 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Kyrio Trix >> ... :9 I have got to put a Kyriotate in a game soon, preferably with one >> of these neat things to do with them that keep popping up on the list. >It just occurred to me that a 10-force Kyrio of the Sword with Scabbard >could be scary. AH-HA! Now I know why those GunBunnies in the movies never seem to run out of ammo! Every time they empty a gun they drop it back in the Scabbard and pull out a second, identical one. Meanwhile the gun they just emptied is being reloaded by another host. Yours in Triviality, BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:16:13 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Oh caffiene, thou art my darling >Relic: Jean's Flask The kind of coffee >the flask makes depends on what level it is.... Aye, but can it do Irish, and how much do they cost the blessed souls? Josh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 17:15:56 -0000 From: "Chris Anthony" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Eric Eves said: > True, however, these things are only targeted by choice, they don't get > sprayed automatically at anyone within range of the user. Thus, angels > using them presumably won't be hurting other angels with them. This is > different from the attunement, as you can see. There is always the choice. As stated previously, the Seraph of Flowers has the choice to walk away. If it happens to be close combat, then the Seraph of Flowers can simply go celestial (unless she's also a Seraph of Dreams) and head out that way. Yes, you have to inflict it on anyone near you; no, you don't have to be near people. However, the Will roll is still at a penalty of the Seraph's total Forces. So an "average" PC demon, standing ten feet away from an "average" Seraph of Flowers, would still have *exactly the same chance* of making his Will roll as an "average" PC angel standing ten feet away - which is to say, 1 in 216. (I use average here to describe a purely even distribution for a canonically- created 9-Force starting character: 3 Celestial Forces, 6 Will, 6 Perception.) > True, but that's a fact of the way the setting works, not an ability > deliberately created by and bestowed upon angels. Right. And if *Almighty God Himself* is putting this limitation on his angels... > Yes, but every one of them is more useful to the demons than to the > angels in a close combat situation they're at, even if they don't want > to be. > Some might find that to be less than a good thing. If they don't want to be, they can leave - as stated above. As a side note to what I've said above, a 9-Force demon is a lot less likely to have an "average" distribution than a 9-Force angel. Why? A 9-Force demon has had enough experience using his resonance to be able to know what works and what doesn't, and is therefore liable to have bought his Will up with the 2 Forces he's received since he fledged. In this way, demons do have a significant advantage over angels - by the time they're equivalent in Forces, a demon has had much more experience at being a demon than an angel has had at being an angel. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 17:19:40 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Trix >> >> ... :9 I have got to put a Kyriotate in a game soon, preferably with >>one > >> of these neat things to do with them that keep popping up on the list. Watching my husband play a Kyriotate of Destiny in our first tabletop IN game resulted in my banning PC Kyriotates altogether in my PBEM ... Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 17:30:27 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> David and Peace One of the things I've never understood is why Novalis (according to the books) really, really doesn't like David. I can understand her feelings about Laurence and Michael, but you would think she could get along reasonably with an Archangel who won't initiate combat nor allow his Servitors to do so. Especially when so many of David's Cherubim (okay, at least one ...) would really appreciate having the Cherub of Flowers attunement. (Actually, I think that attunement is right up there with the Malakite of Eli attunement as something that every angel of the appropriate choir drools over -- but it especially works for Cherubim of Stone.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 12:43:39 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Trix From: "BC Petery" > > AH-HA! Now I know why those GunBunnies in the movies never seem to run out > of ammo! Every time they empty a gun they drop it back in the Scabbard and > pull out a second, identical one. Meanwhile the gun they just emptied is > being reloaded by another host. Now I have to start work on the Angel of Spicy-Handed Gunmen. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 12:46:26 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) From: "Chris Anthony" > > In this way, demons do have a significant advantage over angels - by > the time they're equivalent in Forces, a demon has had much more > experience at being a demon than an angel has had at being an angel. And it might help to look at it this way - how many demons with low Wills are going to manage to claw their way out of the pit, and make it to the corporeal for active duty? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:48:44 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> David and Peace On Tue, 07 May 2002 17:30:27 +0000 Janet Anderson said unto us: >>One of the things I've never understood is why Novalis (according to the books) really, really doesn't like David. I can understand her feelings about Laurence and Michael, but you would think she could get along reasonably with an Archangel who won't initiate combat nor allow his Servitors to do so. They won't initiate combat, but they will engage in it a lot faster. Novalis' Servitors will still try to find peaceful solutions after combat has been initiated. Once the first punch has been thrown at a Stoney, all bets are off. In addition, David has more of a tough love approach with humanity than Novalis does. David seems to see her as coddling humans and she views his approach as too brutal. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 10:48:09 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Chris Anthony wrote: > > Eric Eves said: > > > True, however, these things are only targeted by choice, they don't get > > sprayed automatically at anyone within range of the user. Thus, angels > > using them presumably won't be hurting other angels with them. This is > > different from the attunement, as you can see. > > There is always the choice. As stated previously, the Seraph of Flowers has > the choice to walk away. If it happens to be close combat, then the Seraph > of Flowers can simply go celestial (unless she's also a Seraph of Dreams) and > head out that way. Yes, you have to inflict it on anyone near you; no, you > don't have to be near people. > > However, the Will roll is still at a penalty of the Seraph's total Forces. > So an "average" PC demon, standing ten feet away from an "average" Seraph of > Flowers, would still have *exactly the same chance* of making his Will roll > as an "average" PC angel standing ten feet away - which is to say, 1 in 216. > > (I use average here to describe a purely even distribution for a canonically- > created 9-Force starting character: 3 Celestial Forces, 6 Will, 6 Perception.) And bear in mind, also, that an average angel has more Forces than an average demon. And Forces max out a lot higher than Will does--once a Seraph of Flowers reaches 12 Forces, the power will simply shut down all combat around it, period. > > Yes, but every one of them is more useful to the demons than to the > > angels in a close combat situation they're at, even if they don't want > > to be. > > Some might find that to be less than a good thing. I'm sure Michael and Laurence do. I'm equally sure Novalis doesn't, and she created the power. The problem with asserting, "This attunement is a liability to Heaven, period," is that it presumes that physical combat is the most essential part of the War, rather than something which means, as the Cherub of Flowers in Liber Servitorum puts it, "I've already failed." Does the Seraph of Flowers attunement weaken angels in combat more than it does demons? Maybe so. Is that massive or minor? It depends whether the person consider combat the only way of fighting the War or a last resort. In this case, the person whose opinion matters there is Novalis. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 12:52:36 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > > I still don't see the problem here. It was that Rose was being unknowingly used as bait. > Killing a vessel is a set back for a demon, not a final solution. > And if it has another vessel prepared, you've just lost track > of where he is; leaving him safe to continue his plans. The question then becomes "Will losing track of the demon that organised the gathering in the seraph's apartment outweigh the benefits of capturing its companions, and preventing the demons from further terrorising the soldier staying there with the seraph?" > But this scenario seems, to me, like a way to make Novalis > majorly upset. Given her being a cherub, I suspect that she might at least slightly appreciate having two of her own saved from harm. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:52:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers - --- BC Petery wrote: > Opiates can easily kill on an overdose. Hallucinogenics > generally won't. Hallucinogens generally don't knock you out, either. They can effectively remove someone from the fight, but the results are far from predictable. Any depressant can kill with a large enough dose, including alcohol. That depends on the dosage and the subject's tolerance. It takes _a lot_ of phenobarbitol to kill someone; a much smaller dose will render even a large man unconscious. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:54:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Trix - --- BC Petery wrote: > AH-HA! Now I know why those GunBunnies in the movies > never seem to run out > of ammo! Every time they empty a gun they drop it back in > the Scabbard and > pull out a second, identical one. Meanwhile the gun they > just emptied is > being reloaded by another host. [shudder] Note to self -- monitor PC Kyrios of the Sword very closely. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:00:19 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers > >>> I have SERIOUS qualms with letting someone play something that >>> practically demands everybody else's character be a complete pacifist too! > >>It doesn't. They can either move out of range or make their Will rolls. > >"I dare you to step outside and say that, Malakite." And a moment later. "Further! I can still hear you!" Hey, if it works, it might be worth a few brownie points to Dark Humor. -Daiv, tech writer in service to coffee - -- God Of tech support drunken master haiku geek butterfly victim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:19:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Kyrios^n (Re: Seraphim of Flowers) At 11:01 PM -0400 5/6/02, Patrick None wrote: > For whatever reason (its a War Story), the Kyrio Seneschal has the >lightening attunement, which he's been quietly using to spy on the rest of >SF for the decade he's had it - sending a force into a car stereo or palm >pilot and just letting those Forces circulate, listening. > Is this okay, via the rules? Does he make a big disturbance? Or are >Kyrioate of Jean the most hideous spies of all? > Or something. > Patrick Well, he can only stay in an inanimate object for a few minutes, and has to make a roll to possess the next thing on the list. Eventually, he's going to get an Infernal Intervention... Otherwise, yes. Kyriotates of Lightning are wicked spies. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 14:55:21 -0400 From: "Ruth Evers" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) Let's not forget that Novalis does not simply disallow violence, she disallows _unnecessary_ violence. Her Seraphim (and any other angel with the Seraph of Flowers Attunement) may defend themselves, violently if there is no other way. Neither she nor the angel(s) in question will be happy, but they won't be dissonant, either. Kariel, Dominican Mercurian of Flowers Vassal of War Petitioner for the Word of Salvation Always in Trouble. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:45:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Acquiring Core Books (Re: Alternate Factions) At 10:48 PM -0700 5/6/02, WonderGecko wrote: >Now, does anyone have an idea where, outside of Warehouse 23, I might be >able to acquire the core rulebooks? >.< I think I have learned all that I >conceivably can by scrounging around on the 'Net. Which is no small amount! Place the first, wherein you might be able to find Bargains: www.ebay.com , search on Nomine. Place the second: tell your Friendly Local Gaming Store that you would like to special order the core _In Nomine_ rules. Mention that it will be a hardback with a lot of blue on it. O:> Tell them that if their distributor says it's out of print, their distributor is smokin' something. It's not. It's not even Low Stock at Warehouse23. O:> Place the second-and-a-half: If you prefer GURPS, ask for GURPS In Nomine instead. Place the third: Warehouse23.com. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:00:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part I At 10:51 AM -0500 5/7/02, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >There has been a spate of excellent fan-fic on the list lately, >and this is part of it. Thanks, Moe. Yes -- but do try to keep the big posts one to a day, for these? I had a digest-bounce _right_ after the pair of them showed up, and they _were_ over 20K together. O:< - --Beth, List Admin http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/listrules.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:06:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim of Flowers (Was Re: Dueling Sequels) My only comment is, that from a meta-level... Don't take a frippin' Seraph of Flowers if the rest of the players want to run gun bunnies! Find a group where the other players don't mind the combat-squelcher being around, if you must run the Seraph of Flowers! No one is holding a rosebush to your head to make you run it! (And if the GM really thinks it's a problem in _THAT PARTICULAR_ game, to either have or exclude Seraphim of Flowers as PCs -- then adjust the attunement to have a Seraph-controlled range, or be turned off, or otherwise not get in the way of the gun bunnies. Malakim of the Sword are far too busy to bust into the houses of people who use house rules. So are the Gamesters -- they like rules-benders anyway. O:> ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:10:31 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> A Sequel... - -----Original Message----- From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] >> >> I still don't see the problem here. > It was that Rose was being unknowingly used as bait. Please don't take my comment out of context, I understand Rose was being used as a stalking horse. My comment was about what was upsetting about killing vessels. Trauma is bad. Losing a vessel makes a demon look weak, and ineffectual. It is still better than soul death. If Rose had said "You used me as bait in order to further the cause of violence." in outrage, then I would understand it more. Maybe I am viewing things too simplistically, but I don't see that vessel destroying is death. Yes, I see that Novalis is against it. No, I don't see it as a viable solution to every problem, and I really don't see that every Swordie or other member of the War faction would be chomping at the bits to do it. You destroy the vessel when it suits a specific purpose, not just because it's in your sights. Only the Malakim have this problem and that is why they don't get to wander about without a mission. Because if you vessel kill a demon and he comes back in a bigger/badder vessel he had in a body bag that you didn't know about, then you've released an evil on earth. You've caused it. Why would anyone just blast something away when they didn't know the full details? >> Killing a vessel is a set back for a demon, not a final solution. >> And if it has another vessel prepared, you've just lost track >> of where he is; leaving him safe to continue his plans. > The question then becomes "Will losing track of the demon that organised the > gathering in the seraph's apartment outweigh the benefits of capturing its > companions, and preventing the demons from further terrorising the soldier > staying there with the seraph?" I think the replies to the set up have proven that the Seraph of Flowers wasn't in any danger. Only a fool or very inexperienced angel would make the mistakes that are continually attributed to the scenarios where the demons have the upper hand. A Seraph with this attunement is not going to be someone newly fledged and rarely a fool. I am not saying they can't make a mistake, but it is not nearly as likely as each of the demon setups have been. So, vessel killing the demons in this situation means you're Swordie is the one making the inexperienced and foolish decision. >> But this scenario seems, to me, like a way to make Novalis >> majorly upset. > Given her being a cherub, I suspect that she might at least slightly > appreciate having two of her own saved from harm. Given that you still have not proved adequately to me that your Swordie interfered for anything resembling an intelligent reason, I don't think she's going to be happy that you foiled her servitors plan to find a peaceful solution. And while, if the situation truly warranted it, she would appreciate the rescue (isn't she said to keep a squad of Malakims for her own rescue operations?) if Swordies and other War Faction angels do this on a continual basis, it would go a long way to explaining why Novalis is often upset with them. DS1 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2626 ********************************