in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2630 In this digest: RE IN> David and Peace Re: Re: IN> Superior Coffee (Warning. The Non-Canon light is on.) RE:> Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part II {Potential INdigestion} Re: IN> Silly question Re: IN> My brain hurts... Re: IN> My brain hurts... Re: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> My brain hurts... Re: IN> Silly question Re: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> The Cage Re: IN> A Sequel... IN> Lightning and Flowers IN> David and Peace IN> My First Artifact: the Wand of Many Bodies Re: IN> My First Artifact: the Wand of Many Bodies RE: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> A Sequel... Re: IN> A Sequel... IN> The Hyacinth Brotherhood RE: IN> A Sequel... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 05:37:22 -0700 From: Gregg Forge Subject: RE IN> David and Peace >For some reason I'm reminded of the Marine Corp slogan >"Semper fi." I think David would interpret that phrase >differently than he used to. Do or Die is not something that a Cherub would normally have in mind; of course, David holds everyone to that same attitude, which isn't much better, but is at least 'fair' by comparison. >Consider that the two younger Cherubim archangels, Blandine >and Novalis, remained loyal to their original mission, while >David did not. Coincidently neither Cherub gets along well >with David now, or he with them. For reasons I can't quite fully explain, I see an additional distinctive difference between the attitude. Firstly, Stone in its initial intent was the world itself, or at least terra firma. Part of that word was pivotal to plants as earth/soil, stone that has been weathered and worn, but now holds plant's seeds and roots, providing the stable, unchanging anchor... What's more, IMO, it seems to me that, compared to all of the other choirs, only Cherubim and Mercurians seem to be truly equipped, in both their resonances and the part of the symphony they represent, for the concept of Love, even on a level beyond the physical and inter-personal connection with other entities. I daresay that even the love the Intercessionists hold for humanity pales a thousandfold in the face of the raw, uncut love that only a cherub could have for any single thing. The only thing that can love like a Cherub...is another Cherub. I honestly think that, at one point, Novalis was in love with David, on par with the weay that Beleth and Blandine loved. And in his original Stone incarnation, with the sort of...I might venture 'nuturing'...more-than-husbandly, more-than-fatherly resolute love that an easily presumably 'immoveable object' that ties so well with plants and helps Flowers grow, they were what could almost be considered an American Gothic type of couple. The hardworking farmer and the woman who loved him amd stood by him, willing to stand by his side against all things.... Then came the Rebellion. David cast down the tools with which to bring forth life. Instead, he took the strength that he once used to aid and encourage growth, and turned it to the ultimate betrayal of what he was, and what he had been; of destroying those who had once been kin, friends, FAMILY! He stopped being a farmer, and became a soldier. The change wasn't just physical; it was emotional and fundamental. His heart became like his word at the beginning; hard. Resolute. Unyielding. He did the unthinkable, and began to -hate-. After the Fall, he may have tried to temper his hate with practicality, and sure, he took oaths to harness that hatred within him, to -maybe- regain some of his previous nature... But he was changed. FAR too changed to go back to what he was. And just like the soldier who came back from war a changed mand, so too was David no longer what he was... Which must have hurt Novalis in ways she could never forgive. Imagine if the one you loved, essentially, became so full of hatred...hatred that they can barely keep in check...that there was no room for your love in their heart. Hurts, don't it? >I'm not sure if there is any intended deep meaning to be >derived from that detail, but it isinteresting that there >are *no* masculine-aspected Cherubim Archangels. Um...Christopher? Kamika-Z, not recalling for certain offhand... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 05:54:22 -0700 From: Gregg Forge Subject: Re: Re: IN> Superior Coffee (Warning. The Non-Canon light is on.) >>On Wed, 8 May 2002 15:33:33 -0400 Josh Moger wrote: >>"Are you kidding me!? That case launched CourtTV! Gimme a quintuple >>expresso!"- Nybbas > >Ouch. Espresso. There's no x in (an) espresso. > S2, P119. S2, p108. Rex in a Starbucks. Kamika-Z ...'nuff said... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 06:05:57 -0700 From: Gregg Forge Subject: RE:> Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part II {Potential INdigestion} - --------------020007040404080203020700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >>> > Clearly this is chocolate with just enough Manna in it to give it a little >>> > 'zing,' like eating those poisonous fish slivers? >> >> >> >>Pufferfish, aka Fugu. >> >>There's a Japanese saying that goes "I would like to eat Fugu, but I would >>also like to live." > > >Then of course there's Dave Barry's suggestion (based on how >popular it seemed melons were in Japan), that for a true hit >in Japan you should genetically engineer a cross between a >black widow spider and a melon to produce a melon that will >kill you if prepared incorrectly ;-). Or, as one coworker put it, "Japanese food is an experiment in population control." This came on the heels of a discussion of both fugu and, of all things, the number of mocchi-related deaths that occur in Japan. Which leads to the most potentially horrific idea of all; Saminga not only has a brain...but a sense of humor! >Although this brings up an interesting thought about Haagenti; >is there anything out there which is actually poisonous to him >or would make him sick? I would imagine everything possible has >been tried by enemies at some point, given how easy administration >would be to arrange. Maybe make an adventure out of the unusual >results of one such attempt - God knows what would happen if >Haagenti could be made to actually THROW UP (would that release >things/persons long thought gone, or would exposing the rest of >the universe to that black hole in his guts cause all of Creation >to be sucked in?). Imagine the panic as the PCs struggle to find >50,000 gallons of Pepto-Bismol in order to prevent catastrophe... Which, of course, would ironically be another demonstration of Gluttony, followed by Haagenti finding some way to turn the experience into a new attunement...or, if the furball is feeling mirthfully creative, a new NC:PinkStuff. Kamika-Z, NWIH imagining the way it would manifest... - --------------020007040404080203020700-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 06:31:36 -0700 From: Gregg Forge Subject: Re: IN> Silly question - --------------070604050507030504090005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >- --- Chris Anthony wrote: > > >>> If he uses the Celestial Song of Shields (with a >>> Reliquary to generate the >>> requisite Essence), would it then be a case of not being >>> able to see the forest for the tree? ;) >> >> > > If the any angel of Flowers has a Role working in a >flower shop and uses Nothing But Flowers to hide in the >woods, it's a case of not being able to see the florist for >the trees. 0;> > But if they happen to do some volunteer work in a field where /pisum/, / dolichos/, /abrus/, or /cicer/ are grown, and they use the Nothing but Flowers attunement to conceal themselves, is it a case of not seeing the Florist for the peas? Moreover, if a Servitor of Belial uses a Vapulan-made force catcher to capture a Kyriotate of Flowers in the dried legumous pericarp, drops it from the Empire State Building while using the Domino Effect attunement, and the terminal velocity impact happens to strike a a Mercurian of Flowers on the head, killing them instantly, during which the Servitor of Belial makes use of the Song of Celestial Motion to ensure that they are nowhere in the vicinty, and there happens to be no celestials about to perceive the deed, is there a Disturbance? Or, to put it another way... Kamika-Z ...if a pea falls on a Florist, and no one is around to hear it... - --------------070604050507030504090005-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 05:39:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> My brain hurts... - --- Prodigal wrote: > "When the final battle comes, one of the facists up > high is going to > manage to split Haagenti open. And then, all those angels > and demons he's > eaten are going to pop out of him like candy from a > pinata. Or to put it a > bit more accurately, like a legion of cornered rats > desperate to take out > their anger and claustrophobia on anything stupid enough > to come within reach. Now there's a frightening thought. And so within Kobal's performance envelope. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 05:42:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> My brain hurts... - --- "S.D." wrote: > ~/o "On the first day of Christ-mas, I found in > Haa-gen-ti/A host of Jordi in a pear tree!" o/~ "On the second day of Christmas, I found in Haagenti, Two Demon Princes and as host of Jordi in a pear tree!" ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 07:44:08 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > > > The demons were coming to her apartment with the express purpose of > > plotting against heaven in the assumption that they would be safe while > > doing so, and to inflict terror on both the seraph and the soldier under > > her care. > > Your entire debate with me sums up to "You didn't know what I planned." No, it sums up to "You didn't read things closely enough." The section you quoted above is based on what was written in the original vignette. > Sorry, I didn't read your mind. Excuse me for not being telepathic. Try asking next time; if you had done so without making so many assumptions and being so accusatory, I would have been more than happy to give you details. > As far as Will Shackles, Force Catchers and other means of containing demons > goes, just how many centuries were you planning on holding the demons and > where is Heaven's jail at? As long as need be, since vessels don't die of old age (or need anything other than oxygen,) and wherever it needs to be. But since you have convinced me that you are less interested in discussion than with pontificating at me, I see no further reason to continue my attempts at discussing what I wrote with you. Any further messages I get from you on this subject will simply be deleted, in order to save myself and the list further aggravation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 05:46:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> My brain hurts... - --- Jennifer Shih wrote: > * You Are What You Eat: What if it's true? So far, > Haagenti's victims have mostly been demons. But what > if Kobal has gathered himself a coterie of swallowed > angels and is working to Redeem Haagenti from the > inside out, one demon at a time? !!! My daily Essence to you! ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 05:58:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Silly question - --- Gregg Forge wrote: > But if they happen to do some volunteer work in a > field where /pisum/, / > dolichos/, /abrus/, or /cicer/ are grown, and they use > the Nothing but Flowers > attunement to conceal themselves, is it a case of not > seeing the Florist for the peas? [sigh] OK, I deserved that... > ...if a pea falls on a Florist, and no one > is around to hear it... Urk! Rube Goldberg jokes! I must've been really bad in a past life. 0:> ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:11:46 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... > >> > > > > Hell. > > > > As flippant or snappy as that answer may be, it makes a bit of twisted > logic. Anyone want to develop that for a low contrast or backwards > campaign? > > Josh > > I figured the twisted aspect was what made it best. The Angels all know how tough it is to get back to Earth if they get vessel killed, and how much it can mess up their "career." Hell is immeasurably worse on failure then Heaven, and it doesn't seem like the DPs have a very nice policy regarding unavoidable situations. Angels who Fall may find themselves the subject of a bidding war - and then, lacking the natural skills being raised in Hell teaches, failing quickly due to their inability to initally grok how Hell works. Why spend lord knows how much of Heavens resources holding the Demons down and non-celestial indefinitly (as cool as the idea of Demons , huge U bolts around their neck bored into a concrete floor *is*) why not just use Songs and attunements, take what you want, and toss the buggers back into the Ocean they came from. The best part is, all the Demons they stomped to get Earth duty will be waiting for just such a shot at 'em... Patrick Runs a low contrast game :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 09:59:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Cage edenesque@juno.com wrote: > They're angels, but that doesn't mean they're bright. I'll say. They have neglected to note, for instance, that Redemptions must be voluntary. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 11:08:36 -0300 From: "vez o'rama" Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... >From: "Josh Moger" >Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... >Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 02:42:43 -0400 > > >> where is Heaven's jail at? > >> > > > > Hell. > > > >As flippant or snappy as that answer may be, it makes a bit of twisted >logic. Anyone want to develop that for a low contrast or backwards >campaign? > >Josh Or make it like a mock jail, for a backwards, low-contrast/high brightness campaign? :) I.E. Everything is corrupt because anyone can be put in Hell for a price, but it's temporary and almost... fun. :) Oh, and of course... the 'proceeds' go to charity! :) - - vez _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:08:32 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: IN> Lightning and Flowers Just saw a tv article on @discovery.ca a few days ago about this Canadian genetics researcher who's developping a new breed of Poppies. This plant, which can be exploited to make Heroin, also produces Codine and Morphine, vital medical drugs. This researcher is trying to develop a breed of Poppies that produces the medical drugs, but doesn't produce the chemicals needed to make Heroin. So, let's see... we have a Lightning-sponsored project that will simultaneously help Flowers and hurt Drugs. Nice and cost-efficient, just like I expect from Jean. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:24:05 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> David and Peace There are different kinds of hostility. There is, "I ain't gonna do it and you can't make me." Then there is, "Pickaxe in the spinal column." Most Heavenly hostility falls into the former case. I've run out of things to say, BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 11:11:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: IN> My First Artifact: the Wand of Many Bodies [Whee! My first Artifact. I never seen the artifact creation rules, so I will leave it to the likes of Moe to come up with stats for this thing. I hope this isn't too large of a post, Beth.] ************************************************************************* Kobal is responsible for this one. At least originally. Then Micheal got a hold of it and, well, let's just say that the things started becoming _popular_. The Wand of Many Bodies typically appears as a broken stick of wood, although metallic or plastic ones have been know to exist. The Wand can be of any size (Staves of Many Bodies are possible). Technically, the wand could look like anything, so long as it can be pointed at a target within line-of-sight. The standard version of the Wand of Many Bodies has only one use. It allows the user to pick a target (a mortal, Celestial, or even an Ethereal) and sing any Numious Corpus song he knows. The Wand causes the Numious Corpus to effect the target, rather than the singer. So, if you know the song Numinous Corpus: Wings, you can point this wand at your friend Bob and give him Wings instead of yourself. The target will then have all the benefits of the song while it is in effect. As a side effect, the disturbance that results from the song use is centered around the target, not the singer. Useful, yes? Did I forget to mention that the appearence of the Numinous Corpus is identical to their normal appearence? That's why Kobal liked it so much. Let me explain. The original creator of this artifact was a Fallen Servitor of Creation who ended up serving Dark Humor. When he finally received Earth duty again, he found himself in Asia, about the time when Western missionaries were coming over in droves to try and convert the native peoples to Christian faiths. Well, eventually the demon's jokes got him in trouble with the Game, and he decided to lie low for a while to protect his skin. He hung out in a remote village and eventually became aware of the the missionaries there. And began to hate them. Every day, one of the missionaries would gather as many of the native populace as he could and start preaching to them in the village square. The missionary was actually quite effective -- many of the villagers where on the verge of converting. But the demon (who was a Djinn) began to truely _loathe_ having to hear the little monkey describe how evil Hell is and how beautiful Heaven is _every_ _single_ _day_. For _hours_. Finally, this Djinn decided to have a laugh. He made the very first Wand of Many Bodies and waited for the priest to begin his daily tirade against the minions of Hell. Once the priest reached a fevered pitch, the Djinn 'gifted' him with Wings, Horns, Hooves, a Tongue and a Tail. All of which, of course, were incredibly demonic looking, as per the Wand's function. Well, you can imagine what happened then. "Panic" doesn't begin to describe the villager's reaction. The poor priest freaked out completely, and didn't think to defend himself with his new found 'accessories.' Later on, the villagers found all the other missionaries and murdered them as fiends. The local area became hostile to a Westerners for years to come. And the Djinn just about laughed this head off. Kobal gave him a big promotion when the demon gifted his master with his creation. Kobal had a few more made, and others made more, and more... When Micheal got one of the things, he realized another strategic use. One day, he got wind of a meeting that several demons were going to have. These demons served Words which were generally less than friendly toward each other, so many of the demons involved had never met. Micheal sent a Servitor with a Wand in, with a backup squad of Malakim ready as standby. The Servitor found a location where he could be unobserved and waited for all the demons to arrive and start to argue. Then he gave the three strongest demons angel wings. The Malakim squad was called in a few minutes later to mop up what was left after the demons began to slaughter each other. Nowadays, virtually every Superior has access to the Wands. It's a cheap artifact, having no power unless the user already knows a Numinous Corpus song. There, of course, have been improved variants with Essence caches and built-in songs, but these are more rare. The standard version typically is also fragile and easy to recoginze. Most Superiors use them to allow groups of Servitors to share the Numinous Corpus songs they know; this is often easier than teaching the same Song to the entire group. Naturally, some Superiors use them more creatively. Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 08:17:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> My First Artifact: the Wand of Many Bodies - --- Ryan M Roth wrote: > Naturally, some Superiors use them more creatively. Oh, yes. These things are really handy for Andre's ornamental NC. };> ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 11:57:58 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> A Sequel... - -----Original Message----- From: Patrick None [mailto:deadairis@hotmail.com] > Its a cold war. Compromise of your Role and your position means, > essentially, death. > IF you ignore how dangerous it is to be vessel - killed - blowing off the > very real badness of trauma, and that most DPs will just eat you rather then > send you back to screw up another operation (see failure charts), then, wow, > yeah vessel Killing IS pointless. > but if you look at it as a cold war, vessels and roles as incredible > outsources, and Hell actually being a Bad Place... I understand why demons avoid losing their vessels, it makes them look weak, it annoys their superiors to no end, it means going back to the bad place. Continually losing vessels is likely to get their Forces recycled. I just don't see it as always being the first solution angels should choose. Blowing your cover is a temporary setback. >> "Maybe Seraph KNEW that by showing herself to be willing >> to face a house full of demons and remain calm and assured in their presence >> would lead one of the demons to redemption. And by redeeming one, she would >> have a line on possibly redeeming them all. Maybe not, but maybe so" > That's a heck of a TRUTH. that's kinda more a future sense then a (even > level six) seraph check, isn't it? Eh, I admit it's a stretch. Could'a come from several checks over a period of years, as well as by the Seraph's normal perceptions of persons she dealt with habitually. Could'a been from other sources. My point was, Laurence's people should not just interfere without reason. The sniper did not know what the Seraph planned and there was NO ONE in that scene who was in mortal danger. The Djinn was setting up a preexisting condition so that he could cause nightmares at a later time. No one's life, health or soul was in danger, so the sniper shot seemed a not only violent solution, but an exceedingly outrageous one within the context of the situation. > And, if the Seraph isn't reporting War actions to Laurence - such as a > redemption campaign - then the Swordies can't very well plan around it, can > they? They should ask before shooting then. Not that they will or even are ordered to, but if they don't want to continually ruin plans laid by Novalis and her servants, they might try it once in a while. > That's why the Sword has clear lines of communication and clear levels of > command. That Novalis and her angels can't get with the program is just one > of many issues Laurence has with her and hers. > On the other hand, mad props to the author of the laurence NPCs from the > Servitor book. Get with the program? Her program doesn't include summary execution of anyone, demon or human. Her program is anti-violence. And in the scene under discussion, her seraph was not given the opportunity to provide information, because she was not informed of being used as a stalking horse. I can understand why Laurence would work this way. I don't understand why my point of view is considered incorrect when I say this sort of behavior on Laurence and his servitors part really annoys Novalis. I also feel that it shows how completely Laurence fails to understand how peaceful solutions can be useful in the war effort. This is only in terms of the particular scene, and how it has been portrayed. If this is typical Swordie behavior, then it is something I consider a failing tactic. There have been others who have pointed out that peaceful solutions sometimes have their place. What is wrong with saying that violent solutions sometimes are not correct? >> >> As far as Will Shackles, Force Catchers and other means of containing >> demons >> goes, just how many centuries were you planning on holding the demons and >> where is Heaven's jail at? >> > Hell. Which means of sending them to Hell are you proposing? Letting them go or Vessel killing them? Because I believe the issue was holding them without doing either. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 13:24:36 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... > I understand why demons avoid losing their vessels, it makes them look > weak, it annoys their superiors to no end, it means going back to the bad > place. Continually losing vessels is likely to get their Forces recycled. > I just don't see it as always being the first solution angels should choose. > Blowing your cover is a temporary setback. Now, if you can blow off blowing your cover, then you're not looking at it as a Cold war. Temporary setbacks build up - since, while angels and demons may live millenia, there is no (cannon) view of them not acting on a moment to moment basis, living at the same speed humans do. Sure. If your fundamental concept is that getting sent to Trauma and screwing up what you were sent to do isn't a big deal, then its really hard to justify any of the War factions. > Eh, I admit it's a stretch. Could'a come from several checks over a period > of years, as well as by the Seraph's normal perceptions of persons she dealt > with habitually. Could'a been from other sources. My point was, Laurence's > people should not just interfere without reason. The sniper did not know > what the Seraph planned and there was NO ONE in that scene who was in mortal > danger. See below > > The Djinn was setting up a preexisting condition so that he could cause > nightmares at a later time. No one's life, health or soul was in danger, so > the sniper shot seemed a not only violent solution, but an exceedingly > outrageous one within the context of the situation. > So, you don't think Nightmares has any impact on the war? since the Djinn was setting up a Nightmare situation, and you say there was no threat - are you simply saying that Nightmares (and by extension, Dreams) have no impact on the War and can be safely ignored? > > They should ask before shooting then. Not that they will or even are > ordered to, but if they don't want to continually ruin plans laid by Novalis > and her servants, they might try it once in a while. Novalis works for God. God said Laurence is in charge of the War. This is part of the War. Laurence, by definition of his Word and Choir, does not have to *ask.* he is the commander. not Novalis. > > Get with the program? Her program doesn't include summary execution of > anyone, demon or human. Her program is anti-violence. And in the scene > under discussion, her seraph was not given the opportunity to provide > information, because she was not informed of being used as a stalking horse. her program isn't Gods Program, or she'd have been appointed Commander in Chief. As it stands, the Supreme Authority, God, has Spoken. This is what, IMINC, the description of no one appreciating the Swords until they come calling for help. The Swords have WAR to fight, and if the other Words can't even bother to check in with regular status reports, then its their own fault for not cooperating to the fullest with their commander. Advancing *their* word at the expense of Heaven. What is > wrong with saying that violent solutions sometimes are not correct? > I don't think you've said that "violent solutions sometimes are not correct." You've pretty much completly panned Laurence, but more so the entire concept of "killing vessels" being important. And I don't htink the concept of the game works if you say that "killing vessels is a temporary at best solution," while failing to look at how the War is fought. As long as individual Archangels are more concerned (understandably) with their Word then the War, then they might get their agendas interferred with to win the War. If an Angel has a room full of Demons and gets upset that the Swords (or Lightening, or the Game) sees this as a chance to get an INCH ahead, then they should have thought of that *before* not telling the Swords. > Which means of sending them to Hell are you proposing? Letting them go or > Vessel killing them? Because I believe the issue was holding them without > doing either. Yeah, but I think that reaming them for info and sending 'em to trauma is ideal. Booby trap their Role, too. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 17:11:03 -0000 From: "Chris Anthony" Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... Patrick None said: > Novalis works for God. God said Laurence is in charge of the War. This is > part of the War. Laurence, by definition of his Word and Choir, does not > have to *ask.* he is the commander. not Novalis. There is a fine distinction to be made here. Laurence is the Commander of God's Armies - *not* necessarily the Archangel "in charge of" the War. For an illustration of this principle, consider the government of the United States. While the President may be the Commander-in-Chief of the United States military, it takes Congress to declare war, martial law, &c. And there are plenty of agencies that operate outside of the military (such as the Central Intelligence Agency) while still operating under the aegis of the President and the federal government, and who don't always appreciate military "assistance". Just a thought. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:13:47 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> A Sequel... > There is a fine distinction to be made here. > > Laurence is the Commander of God's Armies - *not* necessarily the > Archangel "in charge of" the War. > > Just a thought. > > -EDG Wow. And a nasty oversight on my part. I think my stuff re why Laurence doesn't care (except as politics demand) when other Archangels don't play ball his way (much like the military and "other" branchs), but...wow:) Muchos, beaucoup thanks! I rue the day I wasn't on the list. <,rues, rues> Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 13:21:28 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: IN> The Hyacinth Brotherhood It was a Balseraph of the War and a Djinn of Fire who approached Baal with their idea. They wanted to form a martial order, fiercely loyal to Hell, that would hunt agents of Heaven that had grown too powerful in one area. Rather than working at separate goals, this order would work together to achieve victory. Instead of one demon claiming glory, all of the demons within this group would share in it. Baal found the idea somewhat intriguing. The notion of sending an organized force rather than assorted rabble against some of Heaven's finest appealed to him. Thus with the blessings of the Prince of The War, the Hyacinth Brotherhood was created as an answer to the Order of the Eternal Sword. Membership in a Hunting Pack is limited to Servitors of Baal and Belial that have a proven ability to work together with other demons. The strict requirement has kept the membership roster low, but has not diminished their effectiveness. Once accepted for membership, the demon gives up its name and its Heart is moved into a special location for members of the Brotherhood. They are integrated into a Hunting Pack that gets sent to Earth on missions of assassination. The typical operation of a Hunting Pack is quite simple. One pack, consisting of no more than four demons attempts to take out the target. If the victim is an angel or a Saint, they will do everything possible to Soul Kill the target. If they are going after a human, an Impudite of the War is sent in for the kill. Should the pack be taken out, a second pack moves in for the kill. The Brotherhood has become dangerously effective at what they do and have been able to keep collateral damage to a minimum. Although they cannot follow a target into Heaven, some members smugly assert that it's only a matter of time before they can. Needless to say, neither Laurence nor the Order of the Eternal Sword are taking this insult lightly. The Archangel of the Sword has ordered all of his Earthly Servitors to put themselves between the Brotherhood and their targets. Peliel is offering membership in the Order of the Eternal Sword to any angel that provides solid information on the names and locations of the two demons that began this abomination. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 13:50:32 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> A Sequel... - -----Original Message----- From: Patrick None [mailto:deadairis@hotmail.com] > Now, if you can blow off blowing your cover, then you're not looking at it > as a Cold war. Temporary setbacks build up - since, while angels and demons > may live millenia, there is no (cannon) view of them not acting on a moment > to moment basis, living at the same speed humans do. > Sure. If your fundamental concept is that getting sent to Trauma and > screwing up what you were sent to do isn't a big deal, then its really hard > to justify any of the War factions. Correct. I think I may have overstated myself in that. I do understand that vessels don't come cheap, but I also feel that there are times when an issue, or even a single human, can be considered more important than an angel's vessel. I would still think that the War Party would be more concerned with the long term benefit of finding a way to trap or catch a demon in Celestial form and go for total annihilation than simple vessel destruction, but it's a moot point. That the War Party will use violence to attain it's goals is a given. > So, you don't think Nightmares has any impact on the war? since the Djinn > was setting up a Nightmare situation, and you say there was no threat - are > you simply saying that Nightmares (and by extension, Dreams) have no impact > on the War and can be safely ignored? No. I just don't feel the situation presented to us in the scene under discussion required or even asked for such violent resolution. There was no immediate need to kill the Djinn. And unless the sniper had implanted listening devices, he had no means of knowing a verbal threat was being posed to the seraph. I in no way stated that the Djinn was not dangerous. I said the situation did not warrant blowing his brains out and spattering them across the blouse of the seraph. > Novalis works for God. God said Laurence is in charge of the War. This is > part of the War. Laurence, by definition of his Word and Choir, does not > have to *ask.* he is the commander. not Novalis. Lucifer didn't think he needed to ask either. I think there is far too many proofs to list that show Laurence is capable of making decisions that are not always the most correct. Certainly members of the War Party have quotes in their write ups that indicate times when they have questioned his decision making process. More importantly, only God is infallible. Everyone else, every AA and every Reliever and every angel in between, including the Malakim, can make a mistake. And with that in mind, they should be aware that other individuals might have advice on an issue, or might have a plan that could work. This is not to say that every issue should be decided by debate in the Seraphim Council, but perhaps before an angel interferes with another angel's plans, they might consider asking what is going on first. Even if the angels in question are Archangels. > This is what, IMINC, the description of no one appreciating the Swords > until they come calling for help. The Swords have WAR to fight, and if the > other Words can't even bother to check in with regular status reports, then > its their own fault for not cooperating to the fullest with their commander. > Advancing *their* word at the expense of Heaven. Sounds like a good campaign idea. A very violent one as well. I hope that you give peaceful resolution some hope of working, but it's your campaign so do what you will. > I don't think you've said that "violent solutions sometimes are not > correct." You've pretty much completly panned Laurence, but more so the > entire concept of "killing vessels" being important. I fail to see how I have said anything else. I have repeatedly said that I thought the sniper scenario was overly violent for the situation stated. I have said I understand that Swordies will use such tactics, but that it was not always the best answer. I did, however, probably oversimplify my position on vessel killing and will recant it in part. I will not recant my position that a servant of Novalis would rarely consider her role or vessel more important than the life of a human or the chance of redemption of a demon. > And I don't think the concept of the game works if you say that "killing > vessels is a temporary at best solution," while failing to look at how the > War is fought. I do. It works very well for me. But if it doesn't work for you then you are not required to subscribe to my opinion. Neither am required to subscribe to yours. I will debate the issue of how considering vessels as expendable, if somewhat expensive, resources if you feel it worth your time. > As long as individual Archangels are more concerned (understandably) with > their Word then the War, then they might get their agendas interferred with > to win the War. If an Angel has a room full of Demons and gets upset that > the Swords (or Lightening, or the Game) sees this as a chance to get an INCH > ahead, then they should have thought of that *before* not telling the > Swords. But if the actions of the Sword gain a single INCH and lose a MILE, then such continued, unthinking, actions will ultimately lose the War for them. And the Swords should consider that before attacking. The general that doesn't consider the ramifications involved in taking an action is doomed to failure. >> Which means of sending them to Hell are you proposing? Letting them go or >> Vessel killing them? Because I believe the issue was holding them without >> doing either. > Yeah, but I think that reaming them for info and sending 'em to trauma is > ideal. Booby trap their Role, too. Oh. Certainly. But the issue presented to me was that there was some means of dealing with the demons that Novalis would not find upsetting. Only the Djinn was "killed" and my protestations of the scene were supposed to be salved by the idea that the demons were only being captured, not killed. But your solutions are all viable and appropriate to a violent resolution. They are not appropriate to Novalis and I feel she would find using her servants as bait for such as an action designed to upset her. DS1 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2630 ********************************