in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 14 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2637 In this digest: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> Desperate Measures Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II IN> Re: Job RE: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> Re: Job Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II RE: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> little query Re: IN> a meeting Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II IN> There is no such thing as "invulnerable" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:45:59 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >From: Ryan M Roth >Subject: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Absolutely great character... but one quibble. [snip] >Khalid himself has never had the opportunity to confront Israphane, but >considering how strong the Calabite is and how favored he is with Lucifer, >it is an open question who would win such a conflict. Actually, Khalid should crush him like a bug in direct combat -- he's a *Superior*. Two Songs and Israphane's a goner. (Celestial Song of Charm with enough Essence pumped in to auto-success Israphane right down to 0 Will, and then Celestial Song of Life to soul-kill him in one shot.) There's a *reason* the Song Of Life is Restricted (Superiors Only). :-) As for Lucifer's favor... as an extreeeeeeeeemely long list of suckers knows, the favor of the Lightbringer is at least as much a curse as it is a blessing. Sure, Lucifer could possibly intervene to save Israphane's heathen behind. Indeed, the fact that Khalid hasn't found him in this long is probably due to a couple of Infernal Interventions already. But Lucifer directly confronting a Superior to save a Word-bound, even a very senior one with lots of style? I just don't see it. The Lightbringer is the most selfish entity in all of Creation, to the point where he makes Demon Princes look like philanthropists. And Lord knows none of them like showing up to pull Servitors' fat out of the fire, even vs. foes they could easily crush. Besides, the direct presence of the Lightbringer in combat vs. an Archangel (1) is a situation that just positively *begs* for a Divine Intervention... :-) - -- Chuckg (1) Or several. If Lucifer shows up personally to confront an Archangell, the Superior in question would have to be dumber than Saminga to not call it in. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:13:10 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >>Actually, Khalid should crush him like a bug in direct combat Definitely. Or at the very least, have a truckload of Malakim with big guns handle the problem. My own take on that is that Superiors normally would not take direct action against lowly Servitors unless *really* provoked. But I think Khalid would definitely have an angel or two as counselors for those who help Israphane's victims. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:26:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II On Tue, 14 May 2002, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >From: Ryan M Roth > >Subject: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II > >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:40:18 -0400 (EDT) > > Absolutely great character... but one quibble. > > [snip] > >Khalid himself has never had the opportunity to confront Israphane, but > >considering how strong the Calabite is and how favored he is with Lucifer, > >it is an open question who would win such a conflict. > > Actually, Khalid should crush him like a bug in direct combat -- he's a > *Superior*. Two Songs and Israphane's a goner. (Celestial Song of Charm > with enough Essence pumped in to auto-success Israphane right down to 0 > Will, and then Celestial Song of Life to soul-kill him in one shot.) > There's a *reason* the Song Of Life is Restricted (Superiors Only). :-) Depends on the favor of the game. Conflicts on this level of power are _rarely_ decided by brute force. Several things could influence the outcome of events. First, Israphane's actual power level is somewhat nebulous -- he may in fact _be_ a Superior, just one who has a special position under Lucifer that doesn't require a Principality. Heaven really has no intelligence on his specific strength. A second consideration is that Israphane, being no fool, will not allow hinself to be put in a situation where Khalid could directly attack him. There are _plently_ of ways to level the playing field -- any professional demon will know how to manipulate the angelic mindset. Something along the lines of "Sure, Khalid, you could annihilate me now, but then you will never find your tortured Servitors. You promised you would protect them, didn't you? Well, I left their faith in you entact, if nothing else. Perhaps you would like to break that faith yourself?" Israphane is evil, after all, and willing to do anything to advance his agenda. A third consideration (and the one I would use to enhance the story of my game) is that Israphane is an experiment of Lucifer's. Basically, Lucifer would like to see Khalid's Word hurt seriously. And Israphane has /potential/. So, Lucifer helps the demon along, and is pleased with his capabilities. Eventually, one day Lucifer comes to Israphane and tells him it is time to see how powerful he really is. They plot and plan, and arrange as situation where Khalid is goaded into conflict with Israphane. But it is Lucifer who selects the method of conflict -- Khalid is to pit his Faith against Israphane's ability to destroy belief. No Songs, no flaming swords, no help from the outside. Lucifer makes sure the playing field is leveled and there are no interferences. He himself does not intervene; He sits back and watches the show. So this would be the culmination of the experiment -- a battle to determine if Faith really has the strength to stand up to Hell's best. If Khalid's Faith provails, Lucifer has learned something about the nature of Faith (which he can then use to his advantage) and only lost one Calabite. But, if Israphane succeeds in breaking Khalid, the repercussions in Heaven would be /devestating/. As far as Israphane is concerned, he would jump at the chance to prove himself capable to breaking Khalid, if only to prove his own superiority. Should he succeed, Lucifer will definately allevate him to Princedom on Israphane's own terms. My point is that, while just looking at the numbers would tell you Israphane doesn't have a chance, role-playing isn't about the numbers. It's about the /story/ -- and the story can ignore the numbers. So, as I said, the ultimate conflict between Israphane and Khalid could go either way, because it is more interesting, story-wise, to have a unsure outcome than a certain victory. Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:28:22 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >My own take on that is that Superiors normally would not take direct action >against lowly Servitors unless *really* provoked. Er ... I think this one qualifies. If he hasn't got Yves, Dominic, Laurence, Khalid, *and* the Order of the Eternal Sword giving him much more attention than he wants, I'd be very surprised. The worst evil isn't always the spectacular, flashy kind with the high body count. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:25:59 -0400 From: Eric Hallstrom Subject: Re: IN> Desperate Measures At 06:09 PM 5/13/02 , you wrote: >--- Eric Hallstrom wrote: >> A broad spectrum of techniques for assuring that a > >Human soul, upon discarnation, >> can _only_ Reincarnate or Dissolve into the Symphony >[snip] >> A broad spectrum of techniques for assuring that a >> living Human, for a strategically >> significant span of time, can achieve _neither_ its >> Fate, _nor_ its Destiny. > > You wasted no time activating the "No Canon" light on >this one; the GMG specifically states that even Superiors >can't manipulate souls like this. That said, the ability >to do so would drastically alter the balance of power in >the War; I can't see Hell _not_ using this ability, and >there are certainly parties in Heaven who would be equally >quick to do so. > Are there? Well, perhaps. But not when, I think, Hell could cop to what they were doing. Note that even the prospect, even for those who are Fated, would be intensely ... disturbing to most of the Archangels. Also, I should note that it _isn't_ something an Archangel can do. Jean is just taking advantage of a thing the Symphony does naturally anyway. He can't cause someone to _meet_ their Fate; only to _not_ meet it. And in so doing he must prevent them from finding their destiny, too. It's a potential War-reversing tactic _if only one side has it_. But if _both_ sides have it, it becomes simply another stalemate, on a wider, bloodier, more painful scale. There are many similarities to the use of poison gas in WWI. And since then, for that matter. >> A set of combat Artifacts and Songs that destroy >> discarnate Human Souls on a wide scale. > > I can't see any AA's being willing to do this, not even >to deny Essence to Hell. When that essence is the thing that is enabling Hell to win the War? Remember that this is part of Jean's "Hell is winning and everything is lost" plan. Michael, at least, would probably say that it was better to be non-existant than to languish forever under the conditions that would prevail in Hell if Lucifer actually _won_ his little argument, no? Of course, Michael would probably deny that Lucifer could ever be in that position to begin with, but .... This is also the thing most immediately dangerous to Heaven, of course .... >> A set of combat Artifacts and Songs that send discarnate >> Human Souls into Limbo on a narrow or individual scale > > Again, Humans (canonically) can't go to Limbo. Of >course, IYC, YMMV. Can't go normally, no. This I understand. But, can't be _sent_? By a Jeanite artifact? Ethereals can go to Limbo, after all. Celestials can go. It would be very strange if there was some kind of magic wall keeping out Corporeals that couldn't be breached at all. > Assuming that one bends canon enough to let all this >stuff happen, I really can't see Jean going to Michael for >ideas on field-testing these techniques (considering that >Michael is my top candidate for wanting to implement >it...). Far more likely that Jean would bury the >information and never give the rest of the Council the >slightest inkling of what he'd found. To say nothing of >having any demon who got too close to the discovery >terminated with extreme prejudice. Ah, but then he couldn't test them and see whether they would work or not. And the whole point is that Jean thinks that there is _some_ possiblity that they might, one day, be needed. And who else, besides Michael, _would_ you go to? Gabriel? She's unreliable. Eli? The same, even if you could find him. Janus might blab sheerly to stir things up. Christofer? Zadkiel? Problably don't have the resources, and Christofer is unsuited, anyway. Novalis or David would find the whole idea abhorrent, much less the idea of keeping it secret. Yves is _right_ out. Dominic? Litheroy? Khalid? _Laurence_? Don't make me laugh. Jordi can keep a secret, but lacks the expertise necessary to evaluate the results. Marc? Maybe, but consider that testing two of the devices will require a trip to Hell. Marc is not really the person to call for top-secret special forces actions in Perdition. Who's left? And Michael does have a large organisation, both in Heaven and on Earth, and is suspectred of having spies in Hell, as well, (or at least is supected of being the one who has them if anyone does). And he _can_ keep a secret. And he _can_ accurately evaluate the results. And he _is_ a better tactician than Jean. Better than anybody, really. Who else would _you_ call? >===== >Michael Walton, #US2002023848 > If your principles don't inconvenience you >from time to time, you don't really have any. Eric Hallstrom, - -- The other main problem with rugby I had was that quite simply, I didn't give a damn who won. It was cold, wet, miserable and the teacher was second cousin to a retarded chimp. All I did was try to stay warm, try to avoid pain and actual physical injury, and endure. - -Dan Holdsworth, sdm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:36:46 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >From: "Janet Anderson" >Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:28:22 +0000 >Er ... I think this one qualifies. If he hasn't got Yves, Dominic, >Laurence, Khalid, *and* the Order of the Eternal Sword giving him much more >attention than he wants, I'd be very surprised. *Oh* yeah. As I said earlier, it's quite probably taken several Infernal Interventions just to keep him alive *this* long. If the First Balseraph wants to exert some effort in keeping your movements cloaked, they will be. For a while. :-) - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:47:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II On Tue, 14 May 2002, Ryan M Roth wrote: > My point is that, while just looking at the numbers would tell you > Israphane doesn't have a chance, role-playing isn't about the numbers. > It's about the /story/ -- and the story can ignore the numbers. So, as I > said, the ultimate conflict between Israphane and Khalid could go either > way, because it is more interesting, story-wise, to have a unsure outcome > than a certain victory. > A couple more points I jsut thought of: Khalid, given the trouble he has had (nearly Falling and all), is on shaky ground. Lucifer would see his troubles as a sign of weakness, making Khalid ripe for attack. Part of their plan would be to encourage events to make Khalid's position and Word even more unstable before Israphane confronts him. In short, Khalid and his word are vulnerable. Second, Khalid's Elohite nature makes him susceptable to the types of attacks Israphane specializes in. Their conflict would occur over coffee, with potent metaphysical arguements being slung back and forth. As an Elohite, Khalid must remain objective, and that means conceeding to logical arguments that he cannot refute. Which means Israphane could pit Khalid's Choir against his Word. All in all, if it were my game, I would probably have Khalid lose the conflict. Because it would make an more interesting story and because it makes sense to me that he would, given what we know about him. There would also be the adding bonus of player's faces when they realize an Archangel has been trounced :) Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:49:34 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >>So this would be the culmination of the experiment -- a battle to determine if Faith really has the strength to stand up to Hell's best. I seem to remember a similar experiment with someone named Job in a place called Soddom and Gamorrah. However, I think the idea of the contest is kind of intriguing. Khalid is very subtle and his Dissonance conditions prevent him from using his abilities to encourage Faith in people. I have this image of a smile creeping across his face as the terms of the challenge are read. As an antagonist, however, I like the way Israphane is written. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:53:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II On Tue, 14 May 2002, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >From: "Janet Anderson" > >Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II > >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:28:22 +0000 > > >Er ... I think this one qualifies. If he hasn't got Yves, Dominic, > >Laurence, Khalid, *and* the Order of the Eternal Sword giving him much more > >attention than he wants, I'd be very surprised. > > *Oh* yeah. As I said earlier, it's quite probably taken several Infernal > Interventions just to keep him alive *this* long. If the First Balseraph > wants to exert some effort in keeping your movements cloaked, they will be. > > For a while. :-) Keep in mind that Israphane is Lucifer's personal Servitor. He does not wander the Earth, shattering every faith he comes across. He goes after very specific targets, chosen by Lucifer himself. He plans all his moves very carefully, for he knows that the devil is in the details. Israphane always keeps a low profile, because his attacks come in the form of words and conversation, not giant explosions. He rarely makes a Distrubance. And by the time the effects of his attack are noticed, he's long gone. Heaven may want him, and they may want him _bad_, but they have to find him first. And if they find him, they have to wonder if he has been found only because he _wants_ to be found. After all, he has never failed an assignment. Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:56:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Cameron McCurry wrote: > I seem to remember a similar experiment with someone named Job in > a place called Soddom and Gamorrah. Niggling correction: Job lived in the land of Uz. It was Lot, Abraham's nephew, who lived in Sodom, next door to Gomorrah. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:58:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II On Tue, 14 May 2002, Janet Anderson wrote: > >My own take on that is that Superiors normally would not take direct action > >against lowly Servitors unless *really* provoked. > > Er ... I think this one qualifies. If he hasn't got Yves, Dominic, Laurence, > Khalid, *and* the Order of the Eternal Sword giving him much more attention > than he wants, I'd be very surprised. The worst evil isn't always the > spectacular, flashy kind with the high body count. > > Janet Anderson The fact that you say this means you are impressed with how evil he is. Which means I succeeded in bringing it across. Thanks for the compliment. :) Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:59:02 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >From: Ryan M Roth >Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:47:07 -0400 (EDT) [snip] >Elohite, Khalid must remain objective, and that means conceeding to >logical arguments that he cannot refute. Which means Israphane could pit >Khalid's Choir against his Word. Unlike mortal practitioners of Faith, it is an objective fact to Khalid that God/Allah/Whatever Name You Call Him By exists, that he created the universe, that he loves us, and all the rest of it. You cannot logically refute an Archangel's belief in God anymore than you can logically refute the sunrise. First law of semantics -- the map is not the territory, the symbols used to refer to a given event are not the event itself. Besides, even *Malphas* couldn't get Khalid to crack -- quite -- even at Khalid's most vulnerable. And said vulnerability was due to a setup job whose roots had originally been laid by the Lightbringer himself. With that in mind, I don't think any mere senior Word-bound is gonna get it done. Especially not *now*. Khalid *before* his reconciliation with Heaven, maybe... but again, that would have been due to some excellent groundwork having been laid by both Lucifer himself and the Demon Prince of Factions. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:04:25 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II On Tue, 14 May 2002 15:28:22 +0000 Janet Anderson said unto us: >>The worst evil isn't always the spectacular, flashy kind with the high body count. Fair enough. Personally, I still think Khalid would first attempt to handle this quietly by sending anonymous Servitors that would be strong enough to have a chance to heal the damage that was done to someone's faith. If he realizes that approach is not working, he would probably come to the conclusion that a more violent solution is in order. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 09:08:48 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: IN> Re: Job On Tue, 14 May 2002 11:56:08 -0500 Earl Wajenberg said unto us: >>Niggling correction: >>Job lived in the land of Uz. It was Lot, Abraham's nephew, who lived in Sodom, next door to Gomorrah. Ah, the disadvantages of a non religious upbringing. But if I remember correctly, Job had a lot of things happen to him as a test of his faith. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:18:27 -0600 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II It strikes me that a more realistic way to run this character's conflict with Khalid is simply that Lucy has given him a continued supply of vessels and possibly the Malakite Trauma-immunity ability. In this case, Khalid showing up to kill him doesn't do much good. It's certainly more realistic than believing he could fight Khalid. Another option is that Lucifer has implied that Khalid killing Israphane will mean that Lucifer kills Rashid. In this case, it would look rather cowardly of Khalid to fight Israphane by force, sacrificing Rashid -- that implies he doesn't have _faith_ in humanity to choose his Word over Israphane's, and feels the need to artific- ially remove Issy from the board. In fact, that may be exactly what the Morningstar would want... - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:16:47 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >From: Ryan M Roth >Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:53:32 -0400 (EDT) >Keep in mind that Israphane is Lucifer's personal Servitor. Didn't I just get through acknowledging -- twice -- that that is the reason why he ain't dead *yet*? >He does not wander the Earth, shattering every faith he comes across. He >goes after very specific targets, chosen by Lucifer himself. And this status is at least as much a curse to Israphane as it is a blessing - -- for the kind of targets that are worth the Lightbringer's personal attention are also usually worth personal Superior attention from the other side. While it is entirely possible for the clever, low-Disturbance, and powerful to get up the nose of a hostile Superior occasionally and survive, if you plan to make a career of it... well, don't bother stocking up your retirement portfolio. >He plans all his moves very carefully, for he knows that the devil is in >the details. Israphane always keeps a low profile, because his attacks >come in the form of words and conversation, not giant explosions. He >rarely makes a Disturbance. And by the time the effects of his attack are >noticed, he's long gone. And this pattern will indeed work, and work very well. For a while. Until Yves starts getting just a wee bit honked that the best and brightest long-term Destinies are getting themselves sidetracked by a very subtle demon, and proceeds to exercise a few of those brain cells and figure out that for strategic Destiny targets above a certain magnitude, the angelic detail handling the case should *expect* Lucifer to send this person in. Or at the very least, to plan for the significant possibility that he might be sent in. At which point, the 24-hour surveillance of the target commences... and as soon as anybody near him starts up with Israphane's conversational style, so do the Kyrio of Destiny mind probes. And when those bounce, so do the Superior Invocations. Either that, or one day Israphane is going to walk up to an assigned target, perhaps the most important Destiny that Heaven's going to be sheperding this century -- and find out that: a) every Servitor of Destiny below the rank of Master (and even some of those) had been deliberately misinformed by their own Superior as to this guy's importance, so as to set him up as bait (Lucifer does *not* have omniscience, and I really doubt that Hell's reconaissance capability goes up to being inside Yves' inner circle of senior Word-Bounds) b) the target isn't even a human being, but a Celestial... c) ... specifically, a Vessel of Laurence with the ubiquitous Big Gleaming Sword -- and, if necessary, a set of earplugs. Or something like that. Unless you are a being powerful enough that you can create a 'Mutual Assured Destruction' nuclear detente-type situation merely by existing (i.e. -- you're a Superior), if you go around making Superiors on the other side clench their teeth and froth with rage at the very mention of your name, then eventually you will become enough of a pain that they will devote sufficient resources to obliterate you. At which point, Lucifer merely grins mockingly and promotes your already-scouted-out replacement. >Heaven may want him, and they may want him _bad_, but they have to find >him first. Or exercise a bit of behavior science profiling, figure out what types of targets he goes for, and stake those out. Israphane is a *working* demon. >And if they find him, they have to wonder if he has been found >only because he _wants_ to be found. Yes, and they can mull the philosophical significant of that question after they nuke him. >After all, he has never failed an assignment. He's an exceptionally competent and powerful celestial, yes. He ain't the only one. :-) - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:19:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Job Cameron McCurry wrote: > But if I remember correctly, Job had a lot of things happen to him > as a test of his faith. Quite correct. He lost his children, his fortune, and his health. His friends told him he must have done something bad to deserve this. He knew he had not and demanded an explanation of God. He got quite angry at God, but he never lost his faith. (But neither did he ever get an explanation, other than, in essence, "Don't take that tone of voice with Me. Don't you think I know what I'm doing?" "Er, yes Sir.") Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:27:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II On Tue, 14 May 2002, Charles Glasgow wrote: > >From: Ryan M Roth > >Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II > >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:47:07 -0400 (EDT) > > [snip] > >Elohite, Khalid must remain objective, and that means conceeding to > >logical arguments that he cannot refute. Which means Israphane could pit > >Khalid's Choir against his Word. > > Unlike mortal practitioners of Faith, it is an objective fact to Khalid that > God/Allah/Whatever Name You Call Him By exists, that he created the > universe, that he loves us, and all the rest of it. > > You cannot logically refute an Archangel's belief in God anymore than you > can logically refute the sunrise. First law of semantics -- the map is not > the territory, the symbols used to refer to a given event are not the event > itself. > > Besides, even *Malphas* couldn't get Khalid to crack -- quite -- even at > Khalid's most vulnerable. And said vulnerability was due to a setup job > whose roots had originally been laid by the Lightbringer himself. > > With that in mind, I don't think any mere senior Word-bound is gonna get it > done. Especially not *now*. Khalid *before* his reconciliation with > Heaven, maybe... but again, that would have been due to some excellent > groundwork having been laid by both Lucifer himself and the Demon Prince of > Factions. > You raise some good points, particularly about the extensive ground work & planning which Lucifer had a hand in. My question would then be: what makes you so sure Lucifer's plan stopped with Khalid's reconciliation? What makes you so sure that wasn't _part_ of the plan? What makes you so sure that Malphas isn't still working? What makes you so sure that things aren't going going happily along Lucifer's timetable? This approach may require small adjustments to canon, but, hey, it's my story. As to the Elohite argument, I would hold that Faith itself is a collection of beliefs, made strong by their interconnections. While it would be highly difficult to convince an Elohite that God doesn't exist, attacking their belief that God cares about them would be possible. After all, God hasn't spoken to them in years, when He obviously could. God allows Hell to work its methods on Earth. God doesn't explain Himself. God lets them work and suffer seemingly without end. Etc. And, once one belief making up a faith is destroyed, the others are more vulnerable. If God doesn't love us, perhaps He doesn't care at all. Or is angry. And He doesn't care at all, why should you? Israphane sometimes thinks of faith as a house made of cards -- start pulling away enough cards, and the house collapses, regardless of how well built it was to begin with. I will concede that to use my version of events will require a certain perspective on Khalid that may not jive with yours, and probably isn't quite canon. I still think it'd be a great story though, and has enough internal consistency to be entertaining. There is often a trend to try and reject powerful villians, because we as people want to have the 'good guys' win. I disagree with that trend; we should let the villians be powerful and evil, as much as they want to be. We should let the 'good guys' deal with them as they can, even if they lose in the end. Let the outcome be unsure, and you capture the excitement of the story. Ryan Roth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:27:27 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: RE: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >From: Julian Mensch >Subject: RE: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:18:27 -0600 > > It strikes me that a more realistic way to run this >character's conflict with Khalid is simply that Lucy >has given him a continued supply of vessels and possibly >the Malakite Trauma-immunity ability. In this case, >Khalid showing up to kill him doesn't do much good. The Celestial Song of Charm/Celestial Song of Life two-punch induces *soul*-death, not vessel-death. A Superior can soul-kill any non-Superior with the expenditure of about, oh, thirty Essence and two combat actions. And after the first action, the victim's at Will 0, so it's not as if the victim can get away after round one. [snip] > Another option is that Lucifer has implied that Khalid >killing Israphane will mean that Lucifer kills Rashid. >In this case, it would look rather cowardly of Khalid to >fight Israphane by force, sacrificing Rashid -- that >implies he doesn't have _faith_ in humanity to choose >his Word over Israphane's, and feels the need to artific- >ially remove Issy from the board. Israphane does not use the Truth to destroy humanity's faith -- he uses sophistry and a variation of the Calabite resonance. It is no more a lack of faith in humanity's strength to physically remove Israphane's cheating, mind-warping presence from the board than it is a lack of faith in humanity's strength to physically remove a Calabite of Belial who's about to resonate a person into shreds. Israphane is a demon, remember, not a purveyor of Truth. He's using sophistry, mind-affecting powers, and all other forms of *cheating* to accomplish his goals. Israphane delenda est. :-) - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:25:52 -0500 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: Re: IN> little query "S.D." wrote: >Subject: Re: IN> little query >A suggestion? Get a white/black/etc rectangle that's 1024x758, paste my wallpaper in the center, and >use that for a background until I post an enlargement. Since that's basically what I'm probably going >to do for most of 'em. ^^; Not a bad idea. Thanks! >>Saminga is going to come and live on my flatmates computer now :)= > >Hee! ^^ He'll fit nicely with the towering plushy cthulhu monitor pet* Cthulhu * - what, like I _wouldn't_ have one of them? _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:29:51 -0500 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: Re: IN> a meeting Michael Walton wrote: > Heh. Did I mention what a fan I am of good closing lines? You damn well better be. It took me nearly as long to come up with one I didn't hate as it did for me to write the rest of the piece :) Thanks for the positive feedback eveyone, it really means a lot. And now I've got an impulse to go write more of the story. By the way, in case it wasn't clear, Mara is a Lilim of Nightmares and Cet is a Balseraph, though who he serves I don't know. Cthulhu _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:40:04 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >From: Ryan M Roth >Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:27:52 -0400 (EDT) >You raise some good points, particularly about the extensive ground work & >planning which Lucifer had a hand in. My question would then be: what >makes you so sure Lucifer's plan stopped with Khalid's reconciliation? Because Lucifer's strategic objective was to get Khalid to Fall. That almost happened during Final Trumpet... but it *didn't*. Khalid moved back *from* from the precipice, Dark Khalid did not happen, and now he's further away from that eventuality than he's been in centuries. Not only is the objective unfulfilled, and significantly less likely to be fulfilled than it was before the plan was originally put into motion, but Heaven has also had a notable net gain. By definition, this is not success. [snip] >While it would be highly difficult to convince an Elohite that God doesn't >exist It would be extremely difficult to convince *any* angel that God didn't exist... much less a Superior. Heck, isn't Khalid one of the celestials with pre-Fall origins? (Yup, my books are still in Eli's closet somewhere.) If so, then he's *talked* to God. >attacking their belief that God cares about them would be possible. After >all, God hasn't spoken to them in years, when He obviously could. God >allows Hell to work its methods on Earth. God doesn't explain Himself. >God lets them work and suffer seemingly without end. Etc. God granted mankind Free Will... and all the inevitable consequences of such an action. Remember, God did not allow the demons to walk the Earth freely. When they originally Fell from Heaven, they fell into a *locked* exile in Hell. *Lilith* set them free to walk the Earth. And Lilith is human. [snip] >There is often a trend to try and reject powerful villians, because we as >people want to have the 'good guys' win. I disagree with that trend; we >should let the villians be powerful and evil, as much as they want to be. The problem is, in this thread I've noticed a counter-trend to reject powerful and intelligent *good guys*... which is equally wrong. >We should let the 'good guys' deal with them as they can, even if they >lose in the end. Let the outcome be unsure, and you capture the >excitement of the story. Really? Then why do all of my most exciting and enjoyable favorite entertainment products -- books, TV shows, and movies alike -- come with a 99+% guarantee of the hero not dying, and a 99.9999999+% guarantee of the villain not winning? And why, despite these genre conventions, are the tales still interesting and compelling? - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:40:57 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> There is no such thing as "invulnerable" I think the point that people wish to make about whatzizname (besides the fact that yes, he's very evil) is that he is not, in canon terms, invulnerable. No demon is, unless he's a Prince, and even then another Prince or an Archangel might change that ... A demon who does not remain in Hell, and is a sufficient irritant to Heaven, *will* eventually be taken out. The record of the Order of the Eternal Sword suggests that even staying in Hell *may* not be good enough. And this one works on Earth. And there's another alternative besides brute force (whether skillfully or blatantly applied) or Superior-level intervention. It's said that in a large city, if you do something that is Right Out (like torturing a police officer to death), the little "arrangements" that police, etc. have with the shadier elements of society will dry up. No more greased palms, ignored drugs or prostitution, fixed traffic tickets, District Attorney's Office deals, kickbacks, connections ... think about this in terms of the War and how things work. Especially think about the people Novalis, Marc, and Michael (just for example) probably work with. Think about Novalis (regretfully but firmly) shutting down her refuges and connections. Think about Marc doing a boycott. Think about Michael ceasing to ignore those things he'd been letting slide. Then think about the reactions of Princes like Andrealphus, Nybbas, or even Asmodeus. And let's not even *discuss* Lilith. Lucifer's an absolute monarch, true, but like most absolute monarchs he knows when he's got unrest on his hands and it's focussed on one person, it might be a good idea to just let the next call for infernal backup go unnoticed ... Or someone in Hell might just decide to send Laurence, Michael, Khalid, and Dominic a copy of I.'s schedule for the next week. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2637 ********************************