in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 15 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2639 In this digest: IN> [Novalis] Sweatin' in the Summer Time IN> Desperate Measures IN> little query IN> Seeker 1341 Pt 2 IN> Bad ideas... getting worse... IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> The Demon of Little Chocolate Donuts Re: IN> The Demon of Little Chocolate Donuts Re: IN> little query Re: IN> little query IN> The Demon of Little Chocolate Donuts IN> My 2 sense Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> Re: Job Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II RE: IN> A Matter of Job Re: IN> little query Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:13:43 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> [Novalis] Sweatin' in the Summer Time >From: Michael Walton > Thoroughly enjoyable, this. Thenkyew. I keep thinking of that scene in the movie Yellowbeard. Mrs. Yellowbeard is visiting her husband, the infamous pirate Captain Yellowbeard, who is in jail for tax evasion. [Capt. Proudly] "Takes after me, does he? I'd killed five hundred men by the time I was his age." [Mrs.] "He's not quite so extroverted as you. He's a gardener." Help! I'm typing and I can't logoff! BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:13:47 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Desperate Measures I propose that the experiment outlined would best be performed in Hell. 1. The souls in Hell are already damned. 2. A successful experiment would not only prove the hypothesis, but would prove it under the most adverse conditions. It would have the added benifit of denying the damned soul's Essence to Hell. The greatest difficulty would be operating "behind enemy lines." Not having access to the details of the Songs and Artifacts I cannot say what measures would need to be taken to protect te researchers and the experiments from hostile actions on the part of the demons. >From my heart and from my hand Why don't people understand My intentions -Danny Elfman, Oingo Boingo, Weird Science BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:13:47 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> little query >From: "Cthulhu" >Can a Superior inflict discord on a servitor of another Superior? I don't see why not. Well, except that the Servitor's Superior would be mightly cheezed off. And the Servitor's Superior would no doubt peel it off at the first opportunity, making it somewhat pointless. Still, Mira Klien was in service to Blandine and she was _Force Stripped_ by Malphas. (Rev. 5) Inflicting Discord seems very minor in comparison. Whee! I'm a Rules Lawyer! Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:13:48 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Seeker 1341 Pt 2 >We didn't come all this way to try and sap you for energy, >although if you can send him a couple of drops, I'm sure he'll appreciate >it. A Celestial "Get Well" Card? >;) Help a man in trouble and he will remember you when he's in trouble again. - -James Feibleman- BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:13:48 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Bad ideas... getting worse... >Wonder > what the government did with all those toys they > classified... They're in Warehouse 23. Stop by for a visit with the friendly staff. Yours in Fear and Loathing, BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:13:48 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II > Note that the beliefs do not have to concern God -- A scientist believes that physical laws are immutable. A soldier believes in a cause and a country. Thrasher Joe believes in himself, as the best skate punk in the world. Hopes and dreams and joy, all lost because they no longer believe it's real. "Think think, think, think, think think think." -Winnie the Pooh BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:21:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II At 5:59 PM +0000 5/14/02, Charles Glasgow wrote: >>From: Ryan M Roth >>Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >>Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:37:56 -0400 (EDT) >>Again, it depends on the perspective. You could have things as you have >>said. Or you could have another perspective on the situation: [...] >What would be the *point*, though? The objective is the same in both >scenarios -- to get Khalid to Fall. It's just that in your scenario, the >Lightbringer is taking a roundabout and protracted way of doing it. > >Lucifer ain't stupid. And deliberately overcomplicating a plan *is* stupid. "Not one path to victory, but all paths to victory!" --Cavilo, paraquoted. While I'm figuring that this poor NPC is running a race against a Princedom (Enui? Nihilism?) and running into Gabriel in one of her prophetic "Hey, you're cruel, I knew there was a reason God wanted me on this street corner, SMITE" moods... ...Lucifer might, indeed, have plot A, plot B, plot C, and plot E (or more), each one branching off of the first one's failure. Of course, this doesn't mean that _any_ of them will _work_, even given enough time. But it's logical enough that he might take advantage of someone else's plot to save what gains he can, or have a backup for his own. (As to the rest of it... Hey, he ain't canon, which means that you don't HAVE to have him in your game. Things don't look uptight yet, but I just want to head off any uptightnesses...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:29:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Charles Glasgow wrote: > >There are some flaws in Ryan's writeup (IMO), but much as I know you > >hate subjectivity, this is not an issue where you have sufficient basis > >for declaring Ryan's opinion to be objectively wrong. > > Actually, I do. His conversational scenario had Khalid committing the > tactical error of sticking around to fight on 'bad ground' when there was no > compelling reason *not* to temporarily withdraw and regroup. This is > something that 12-forcers get flunked out of Laurence's intermediate tactics > class for, much less Superiors. Believe it or not, intelligent, powerful, experienced beings DO still occasionally make boneheaded mistakes that anyone could have warned them against. Professional intelligence agents have been known to reuse one-time pads. Generals have allowed themselves to be lured into obvious ambushes. Presidents, Kings and Prime Ministers have done incredibly stupid things that have brought down their administrations. It's the basis of much drama both in fiction and in the real world. I agree with you to the extent that it's highly unlikely Khalid would make such a mistake. But objectively impossible? No. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:44:17 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II From: "Cameron McCurry" > > I seem to remember a similar experiment with someone named Job > in a place called Soddom and Gamorrah. Two different tests, actually (Job lived in Canaan, IIRC,) but it's a good point. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:51:15 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >From: David Edelstein >Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:29:28 -0500 >Believe it or not, intelligent, powerful, experienced beings DO still >occasionally make boneheaded mistakes that anyone could have warned them >against. Of course they do. *They're* only human. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:53:29 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II From: "Charles Glasgow" > > > >He does not wander the Earth, shattering every faith he comes across. He > >goes after very specific targets, chosen by Lucifer himself. > > And this status is at least as much a curse to Israphane as it is a blessing > -- for the kind of targets that are worth the Lightbringer's personal > attention are also usually worth personal Superior attention from the other > side. Not just from the other side, for that matter - doesn't the Demon of Insubordination (another personal servant of Lucifer) get hosed on infernal interventions as well as divine ones? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:56:06 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II From: "Ryan M Roth" > > While it would be highly difficult to convince an Elohite that > God doesn't exist, attacking their belief that God cares > about them would be possible. Taking this tack with an archangel who forbids his servitors from providing any direct proof of divinity is unlikely to get anyone very far. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:01:28 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Akkk! I just had a thought. Israphane is a calabite. If his resonance goes out of control and there is no one but himself and the guy he's talking to, he's going to be in for it. Or perhaps a little blocking with the Celestial Song of Shields? Perhaps that is why Khalid wants to be summoned. To shield the faith of others. What if he gets a Heavenly Intervention? "Hello Israphane. Hey, who's your friend? Hi, I'm God, pleased to meet you." "Filmore, some capers you /have/ to pull, whether you want to or not." -Dr. Tod, "Thirty Minutes Over Broadway", Wild Cards, Vol. 1 Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:07:07 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II From: "Ryan M Roth" > > Undoubtedly these would be Khalid's counter-arguments. But Israphane is a > smart cookie, so he's bound to enter the conflict with arguments that > aren't so easy to refute. Ones that would, potentially, make Khalid stop > and consider. Given Khalid's greater age and experience, it's unlikely that Israphine would be able to succeed where Malphas failed. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:13:44 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Little Chocolate Donuts From: "David Wood" > Jekkijek is a demon caught in Hell's strangest and stickiest web of > intrigue. That is far too twisted and warped for me not to love it. Nicely done, David! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:19:08 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Little Chocolate Donuts I am having an amusing image of the Angel of Coffee drooling in anticipation for this demon's arrival on Earth... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:24:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> little query - --- BC Petery wrote: > Still, Mira Klien was in service to Blandine and she was > _Force Stripped_ by Malphas. Who was her former Superior, so he had an "in." But if a Celestial can be Force-stripped or hit with Discord by any Superior that (s)he used to serve, that makes Falling, Redeeming and Word-hopping _far_ riskier propositions. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:48:23 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> little query >From: Michael Walton >Subject: Re: IN> little query >Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:24:50 -0700 (PDT) > Who was her former Superior, so he had an "in." He also had her in his direct physical possession for a *long* period of time... long enough that he could possibly have Force-stripped her by the 'do it the hard way' method of celestial combat. And of course, a celestial held imprisoned by a hostile Superior can be made to "voluntarily" accept Discord by the ol' "You'd better voluntarily agree or die" strategy. :-) - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:52:25 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> The Demon of Little Chocolate Donuts I used to "make the donuts." We sold a selection of low calorie donuts. Same materials, but we only put icing 1/3 of the way around. Since the icing is the most expensive part of a donut, we saved close to 2/3 the cost of making them and sold them for 10 cents more than the standard donut. Mammon, not Haagenti, was being served. [Is this a war story?] The Demon of Little Chocolate Donuts was funny. Now I'm hungry for the sequel, in which Jekkijek faces the Reliever of Multicolor Jimmies. "Dissent is not sacred; the right of dissent is." -Thurman Arnold BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:52:29 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> My 2 sense >Lucifer's an absolute monarch, true, Lucifer is the first and most successful Balseraph. He's so successful that he's convinced everyone and the Symphony that no one is more powerful than he is. Which, of course, means it's true. Has Israphane rolled that Heavenly intervention yet? And what if Hell is nothing more than a product of Lucifer's lies? You thought Haagenti spilling his guts was bad. Or does The War simply end, not with a bang, but with a "Never Mind." Yours in Fear and Loathing, BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 17:59:39 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II * Cameron McCurry (cmccurry@earthlink.net) wrote: >> So this would be the culmination of the experiment -- a battle to >> determine if Faith really has the strength to stand up to Hell's best. > > I seem to remember a similar experiment with someone named Job in a place > called Soddom and Gamorrah. The fella you're thinking of at S'n'G was Lot, a different three-letter-with-an-O-in named man. Job's test didn't come in the form of S'n'G's fire and salt. It was poverty, filial loss, disease and three friends of the "Who needs enemies?" variety. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 18:02:26 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Re: Job * Earl Wajenberg (earlw@mc.com) wrote: > [... Job] demanded an explanation of God. He got > quite angry at God, but he never lost his faith. (But neither did > he ever get an explanation, other than, in essence, "Don't take > that tone of voice with Me. Don't you think I know what I'm doing?" > "Er, yes Sir.") "Do you have anything to declare?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 22:40:52 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II if you want to balance your argument that your Super NPC (he's pretty huge, including a fundamental shift in the abilities Kronos grants) has a chance against Khalid - because drama should win out over numbers, mainly - then how come your Super NPC has never failed? how come he's never encountered the one bright light of humanity that, without any angelic interference at all, has heard his "logical" arguments and turned them away with simple, pure, faith? If the answer has anything to do with the stats of it, then, well, your NPC is a dead man walking for the many reasons brought up re Superiors and not 1 on 1. Patrick > There is often a trend to try and reject powerful villians, because we as > people want to have the 'good guys' win. I disagree with that trend; we > should let the villians be powerful and evil, as much as they want to be. > We should let the 'good guys' deal with them as they can, even if they > lose in the end. Let the outcome be unsure, and you capture the > excitement of the story. > > Ryan Roth > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:08:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II - --- Ryan M Roth wrote: > > [This guy is set up to be a major villian in any > campaign. Any group of > PCs who try to confront him directly will almost > certainly lose.] > > > Israphane > Calabite Demon of Broken Faith > Ryan, it's a nice concept. (wait for it) But... Well, you may want to have a counterargument ready if/when one of your players looks at you and goes "Huh. I thought that guys serving Fate and Destiny had to be real careful about forcing people one way or the other, 'cuz even a little celestial interference can queer the pitch." This is a bit of a minefield, you see. If Israphane has an unbroken record, and he's using his supernatural abilities to do it, then he's 'discovered a reliable way to _force_ a human toward his fate or destiny' (which pg 9 of the CPG says that even Superiors can't do). True, you could state that this sort of thing is possible IYC, but then all Servitors of Destiny/Fate and/or all Shedite/Kyriotate PCs are going to perk right up. I say this in my professional opinion as a card-carrying munchkin. ;) And, if he's -not- using this ability to drive people to their Fates ... well, if he uses his Fated Future Attunement on a subject, then said subject -has- to achieve his or her Fate, as per Kronos' dissonance conditions. Also, the above problem with celestial interference would mean that Israphane would have to do it the hard way (no Attunements, no Songs, no resonance, nada) if he wanted to be sure. Indeed, I don't know why this guy would even _want_ Fated Future in the first place: Fate's dissonance conditions are harsh, harsh, harsh to those with that Attunement, which is one reason why Kronos' Servitors are subtle buggers. Again, this may not be a relevant comment to your campaign, and there are certainly lots of good counterarguments/handwaves, but it never hurts to point out potential PC quibbles, right? :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 23:26:55 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> A Matter of Job - -----Original Message----- From: Robb Kidd [mailto:rkidd@web-melange.org] Job's test didn't come in the form of S'n'G's fire and salt. It was poverty, filial loss, disease and three friends of the "Who needs enemies?" variety. **** I've always liked the Job story. It made God and Lucifer seem a lot more like friendly rivals. I can just imagine the two of them walking across the Sinai making bets on how much grief it could take to make Job change sides. Or mebbie Yves and Kronos for IN. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 17:21:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> little query At 1:24 PM -0700 5/14/02, Michael Walton wrote: >--- BC Petery wrote: >> Still, Mira Klien was in service to Blandine and she was >> _Force Stripped_ by Malphas. > > Who was her former Superior, so he had an "in." But if a >Celestial can be Force-stripped or hit with Discord by any >Superior that (s)he used to serve, that makes Falling, >Redeeming and Word-hopping _far_ riskier propositions. He also, I recall, had a chunk of time alone with her -- it wasn't something done in the heat of the moment. I mean, if a Superior gets its hands on you and has uninterrupted time and inclination to spend it being Special... Er, well, it can get messy, y'know? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 23:24:00 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >What would be the *point*, though? The objective is the same in both >scenarios -- to get Khalid to Fall. It's just that in your scenario, the >Lightbringer is taking a roundabout and protracted way of doing it. That is an erroneous assumption on your part, I would say; if anything, the 'goal' that you speak of and derive is entirely TOO straightforwards for the individual who, against all evidence to the potential contrary, lead a third of the Host into rebellion. That is an extremely important point to keep in mind, as the means, motives, and machinations of the Morningstar are far beyond the grasp of most; I think you drastically underestimate what he's done, to date, as well as what he's doing. His goal may not be an outright fall; he may wish to provoke the minor Superior, which is not necessarily a guarenteed ticket to a Fall. After all, a dissonant Superior is likely to be more damaging to the the enemy than removing them outright from the opposition's rank; add to that the fact that there is still much dissent over how recovered Khalid truly is, and the appeal becomes that much more apparant (which may mean that now I, myself, am making a drastic underestimation). While the Archangels are very likely to be keeping a close eye on Khalid, keeping a still closer eye on the Horde, they also work largely under the assumption that Khalid has proven himself and has been fully acquitted by whatever trial that Dominic would put him through. An unhinged Khalid may not fall, but some would want to protect him from the Divine Inquisition, while others would want to take more immediate action; namely, to destroy him outright, no easy task. > >Lucifer ain't stupid. And deliberately overcomplicating a plan *is* >stupid. Who says it's overcomplicated? This -is- an entirely different scale we are working at; there's a reason why many -fear- the Lightbringer. Michael may have beaten him ONCE, but he's grown in power since then. There's no telling how a rematch would come out. And while I don't disparage the AAs in general, their lack of Unity of purpose isn't working to their advantage... > >The first counter-argument that comes to mind -- i.e., to argue that this >is >the only or the best way possible of success, and that the earlier >'precipice' could never be expected to work -- has a flaw of its own. >Specifically, that said argument postulates that a PsyOp beyond the >combined >talents of the First Balseraph and the Prince of Factions to execute is >within the ability of a senior Word-bound to. > Not BEYOND the First Balseraph; approaching. Remember, the Morningstar turned many that were thought to be as true in their love of God as any among their number. It wouldn't be beyond his capacity to make some of that raw persuasiveness somewhat accessable to a suitably proven servitor. Even if it means changing it from a coaxing to a destruction of the intangible. >The first counter-argument to the paragraph above that comes to mind -- >i.e., that it's really the combined talents of Lucifer, Malphas, *and* >Israphane -- runs into another objection... i.e., that for the task of >inducing a Superior to Fall, either Lucifer or Malphas would insist on >handling the final phase themselves. (And Lucifer, at least, can mask his >identity even from your average Archangel.) > IYC, perhaps; canonically, Malphas is likely to be pleased with anyone who 'gets it', and Lucifer is as inscrutible as it gets. Even per protoCanon, in the discussion of Khalid's Fall, Malphas and Lucifer, personally, have naught to do with the final phase; it's purely between Khalid and the Seraphim Council. Unless, of course, you believe that Dominic is a Balseraph in Disguise... >>All of which may or may not violate canon. My point is that there is >>enough wiggle-room to have Israphane play any number of roles in a story, >>and it is _possible_ that he could confront Khalid and successfully defeat >>him. If your story wants to go that way. > >And if you wish to manipulate plot points like plot *puppets* in order to >create a role for him within the story that could quite easily have been >handled by already established characters, who are actually better-suited >to >the job and would (in character) not be inclined to either overcomplicate >their plans or bring extra people into the loop. Um, that's more than a little condenscending, but I may be reading it wrong. :) However, last I checked, the entirety of the game focuses not merely on the plot, but the players as well, as they perform their day to day duties, in the course of the War. The actions of one individual can bring about all manner of changes, be they for woe or for weal. While you may feel it unnecessary to have such an individual, it not only fits rather snugly into the canongarb, but doesn't infringe excessively upon existing servitors and Superiors. Where's the complaint, unless it's simply contraristic refusal to accept that anyone else can play the game as well as the 'established players', leaving no room for New Blood? > >Remember Litheroy's favorite saying -- three people can keep a secret, but >only if two of them are dead and the last one works for Alaemon. :-) > Or happens to have a certain attunement of David's...or, wait, happens to be on one of the Special Teams that deal with either Judgement or the Game. Oh, wait, unless they happen to have a song that no other has access to... Well, so much for THAT idea...;) > >And Khalid *isn't*? That depends. How brilliant is it to let out a Demon Prince, based on a longstanding theological difference with a former peer? > >This is part of what I meant in my earlier e-mail re: 'rejecting smart good >guys'. We cannot grant Ispraphane by plot fiat that degree of >intelligence >which would be reasonably expected of him by his station and background by >unless we extend the same privilege to Khalid... who, as a Superior, and >not >one mentally limited by catastrophic insanity a la Saminga or Belial, would >have an even greater amount of it. He is hampered by confidence, both in himself and in his fellow Archangels, along with theirs in him. One might say the entire War is, when you get right down to it. And that doesn't mean that Khalid isn't smart; however, he is, if only slightly ineffable, just as fallible as any other Celestial, which HAS been demonstrated. On a similar level, Laurence, himself, is not only far from being faultless; he's been a failure on a number of occasions! This, as a result, means that you not only have a rather intelligent, WELL aware demon, but an equally intelligent and well-aware superior, making concepts far more interesting than "I killed it, where's my p#@+ 13\/\/+" versus "I waste him with my resonance! HUZZAH!" >By the same waving of the Plot Device Wand, Khalid would have Faith that >wouldn't be so easy to destroy. But it has proven, not necessarily EASILY shaken, but it CAN be harmed. > >Look, I'm sure you really *really* like this NPC you just designed. And >that he's really cool. > Strikes me that way, actually. >But he ain't gonna be smackin' around no Archangels -- not verbally, not >mentally, not emotionally. That's like writing a Marvel fanfic character >who starts out his story by drop-kicking Victor Von Doom and/or Thanos into >a wastebasket... hello, Gary Stu. There's a magnitude of difference between butt-kicking and a friendly chat about theological differences. :) >Given that Khalid is less than a decade after an attempted Malphas >mind-screw, his first response to noticing that another one was in progress >would be either a) "Wait here and I'll get back to you" as he goes and zips >off to his nice safe Cathedral to think it over, rather than stay within >range of demonic resonance and/or b) "INFIDEL! I SMITE THEE IN THE NAME OF >ALLAH!" *whack whack whack* > What was that about Smart Superiors? Come on, now, you can do better than that. He's an elohite, not a psychic. He'll engage in debate, but that doesn't mean he'll be directly harmed or not; remember, there's been a bit of heart-eating in the past...(thank you Valefor!) ...and you never know, the Elohite may prove that he can be a bit more persuasive than the Calabite can resist, himself... This is also why you seldom see much direct superior-conflict, of course, but that's also due the amount of potential dice-rolling and canon-spindling involved. This particular conflict, between a sufficiently powerful (and rather disturbingly plausible) wordbound and minor Archangel is not remotely as cut and dry as you make it sound. >Eventually? If Khalid wants to tactically withdraw, he can do so in an >instant and Israphane can do nothing. If Khalid wishes to summon >reinforcements, he can do so in an instant and Israphane can do nothing. >If >Khalid wishes to soul-kill Israphane, etc, etc. Not quite; he's an elohite, remember? NOT a Malakite. And he has his own word to promote as well. Now, I'm sure he's a great Archangel, and all, and he's a rather deep, involving character, but he's anything but perfect. More importantly, he's come close to falling before. It can happen again. Also noted is that Israphane's extent of power is deliberately left unrevealed. Personally, I see neither making much headway on each other, DIRECTLY (Think War vs. The War), but Israphane's track record may acquire a particularly obstinante smudge... *meanwhiles, as I plot to abduct him for my IN:A campaign!* > >The only way it can be 'eventually' is if Khalid does nothing except sit >there and allow Israphane to keep taking free swings... which is beneath >even Saminga's intellectual talents. > Okay, what part of 'My faith is impervious, even to the lowliest infidel' are you not getting? Khalid -does- have the occasional bad judgement call, and it isn't based on intelligence at all; it's based on PRIDE. And Khalid's pride in both his word AND his Allah may -mandate- that he do so, because to do otherwise is to contradict itself. That's admittedly one of SEVERAL readings, but I think that this is a definite forest-trees issue here. >Then please, turn the bias knob down a *little*, because so far you haven't >given Khalid credit enough to possess either the strength of will or the >intellectual gifts of a reliever. > Not from what I've noticed. What he has done, from what I've seen, is demonstrate the perfect way to make things more than a little difficult for a word that is a nebulous concept, yet integral to the workings of the War, by attacking not only the word itself, but the supports that make that word VIABLE. The comparison you've made, to me, reads like the assumption that 'not only do you overestimate the concept of a blitzkrieg completely, you assume that both France and England are a pair of mental midgets who are just going to sit there and do nothing'. Tactics, my good man, -tactics-! Or, as Shakespear penned... Kamika-Z ...the Play is the Thing... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:14:45 -0400 From: "Rolland Therrien" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Personally, I see nothing wrong with having Israfane and Khalid meeting for a debate concerning the matter of religion... But there's one vital thing that should be remembered... Khalid is an Elohite Superior. That means that when he uses his resonnance, he can automatically get Check Digit 6, right? Which means he'll look at Israfane and automatically understand the calabim's current emotional state, his strongest emotions and the motivation behind them, and how he'll respond to any two actions (giving him a choice of actions to perform). And Khalid can do this repeatedly throughout the debate. Khalid won't be falling for any mindtrap anytime soon, especially since he's lost the fanatical blinders from "Fall of the Malakim". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 01:07:15 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II >>Believe it or not, intelligent, powerful, experienced beings DO still >>occasionally make boneheaded mistakes that anyone could have warned them >>against. > >Of course they do. *They're* only human. > >-- >Chuckg > Oh, you mean like Laurence? ;) Kamika-Z, who doesn't deny baiting in the slightest on that one. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 03:45:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Crosstraining, Part II Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 11:17:30 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Crosstraining, Part II >Ummm... >In Liber Canticorum, under the Corporeal Song of >Succor, it says that Manna is one of the few >substances Haagenti will not eat. Indeed. However, there was an non-canonical out: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/servitors/Erzulie.htm Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 06:40:20 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Forge" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:07 AM Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II > >>Believe it or not, intelligent, powerful, experienced beings DO still > >>occasionally make boneheaded mistakes that anyone could have warned them > >>against. > > > >Of course they do. *They're* only human. > Oh, you mean like Laurence? ;) Note that one of the operative words in David's statement is "experienced". Note also that Laurence's (few) historic mistakes have been specifically noted as having been due to his relative *lack* of experience. And finally, note that when Laurence does finally learn a lesson from experience, it *stays* learned. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:39:49 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Forge" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 11:24 PM Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II > >What would be the *point*, though? The objective is the same in both > >scenarios -- to get Khalid to Fall. It's just that in your scenario, the > >Lightbringer is taking a roundabout and protracted way of doing it. > That is an erroneous assumption on your part, I would say; if anything, > the 'goal' that you speak of and derive is entirely TOO straightforwards for > the individual who, against all evidence to the potential contrary, lead a > third of the Host into rebellion. Making the Archangel of Faith Fall into the Demon Prince of Fanaticism is 'too straightforward' a goal? It works towards the destruction of Heaven, don't it? Lucifer may be one of the most complex beings in Creation, but Hell's ultimate overall strategic objective isn't really that hard to describe. > That is an extremely important point to > keep in mind, as the means, motives, and machinations of the Morningstar are > far beyond the grasp of most; I think you drastically underestimate what > he's done, to date, as well as what he's doing. > His goal may not be an outright fall; he may wish to provoke the minor > Superior, Faith is not a 'minor' Word. Khalid's extended period of self-Outcasting is why he is not a major player in Heaven. > which is not necessarily a guarenteed ticket to a Fall. After all, a dissonant > Superior is likely to be more damaging to the the enemy than removing them > outright from the opposition's rank; Gregg, if Lucifer wanted Khalid to be highly dissonant but not Fallen, then all he would have had to do is *leave him alone*. That's how he started the century out, right? And if he wanted him highly dissonant but back in Heaven, then his best move would have been to have made efforts to go make Khalid feel *better*, without actually having him mentally address the root cause of his problems. As is, Khalid has undergone a useful catharsis. Not to mention that Heaven already has a highly dissonant, unbalanced Superior causing division within the ranks. A more highly placed one than Khalid, that's already causing a much higher level of dissension. Gabriel. (Remember, the largest split in the War faction -- Dominic vs. Michael -- is primarily due to the Gabriel affair. Likewise, it's the reason why the two oldest and most powerful members of the Host, Michael and Yves, aren't talking to each other much.) If I wanted to take this line of attack vs. Heaven, and I were Lucifer, I'd concentrate my efforts *here*... not on Khalid. > add to that the fact that there is still much dissent over how recovered > Khalid truly is, and the appeal becomes that much more apparant > (which may mean that now I, myself, am making a drastic underestimation). > While the Archangels are very likely to be keeping a close eye on Khalid, Among Khalid's fellow Archangels are three Seraphs, two Malakim, and one other Elohite. If the Seraphim Council ever needs to *really* know the true state of mind, soul, and psychological stability of a fellow member, all he has to do is consent to a session of questioning with screens deliberately down. Most of the time, of course, normal privacy concerns on the Council prevent this from happening. But the return of an Outcast Superior to Heaven ain't a normal situation. Especially when he's blipping *confessing* that he came within one millimeter of Falling, and that he's just barely escaped the mental clutches of the Demon Prince of Factions, and there's Servitors who have already testified to witnessing both. Again -- let's give the angels credit for taking some routine precautions, shall we? > keeping a still closer eye on the Horde, they also work > largely under the assumption that Khalid has proven himself and has been > fully acquitted by whatever trial that Dominic would put him through. Which would include *mind-reading*. > An unhinged Khalid may not fall, but some would want to protect him from the > Divine Inquisition, while others would want to take more immediate action; > namely, to destroy him outright, See above re: Gabriel. Nobody wants to destroy her. The three main factions of Heaven re: the Gabriel solution are , as near as I can tell, "Haul her in forcibly for Judging/commitment", "Forget the Judgement, try to convince her to go voluntarily into outpatient therapy or something", and "Belial's the problem, why don't we just kill him?" > >Lucifer ain't stupid. And deliberately overcomplicating a plan *is* > >stupid. > > Who says it's overcomplicated? I says. As to some reasons why, read my prior post and this one. > This -is- an entirely different scale we are working at; On one level, this is true. On another level, this is a fictional product being 'written' (so to speak) by a collaborative effort of human authors. When storytelling about a superintelligent being, the author is confronted with two problems simultaneously -- 1) how to make the being actually look superintelligent without 2) retreating so far into cosmic ineffability that the reader entirely loses any sense of connection or comprehension with what his motivations are supposed to be. Or to put it more simply, the ineffability wand you just waved needs to be used *sparingly*, not dolloped on in heaping amounts. > there's a reason why many -fear- the Lightbringer. True. The First Balseraph is not a comfortable being to be around, especially given the power of his resonance. If you value your ability to tell black from white or day from night, *run away if he tries talking to you*. But there's also reasons why he ain't won yet. And I'm not referring to power vs. power. > Michael may have beaten him ONCE, but he's grown in power since then. > There's no telling how a rematch would come out. There is, however, a word for any angel in Heaven who will voluntarily stick around to listen to the words of the First Balseraph. "Idiot". Lord knows that Khalid's first trip around that particular merry-go-round is enough of a cautionary tale for any celestial out there... > And while I don't disparage the AAs in general, their lack of Unity of > purpose isn't working to their advantage... The lack of perfect harmony in Heaven has been one of my historic complaints, yes. But it's still important to remember that (in default settings) Heaven at it's disunified worst is still head and shoulders above the competition when it comes to working together. Unless you're playing a severely Dark campaign, which isn't what I'm discussing here, when push really comes to shove angels are still angels. The Judges might be trading laser death-beam eye glares with the Warriors, and the Flowerchildren might be facing a terminal comprehension gap (and frustration gap) when trying to deal with Swordies and vice versa, but they are still each others' brothers and sisters when in crisis, and you don't mess with one without messing with all. Angels, ya know. :-) [snip] > Not BEYOND the First Balseraph; approaching. Remember, the Morningstar > turned many that were thought to be as true in their love of God as any > among their number. The key words being "thought to be". Several of the Demon Prince writeups of the Princes who had pre-Fall histories showed that they had mental cracks in 'em all along. > It wouldn't be beyond his capacity to make some of that raw persuasiveness > somewhat accessable to a suitably proven servitor. Before the Fall, proven by what? Lucifer was attacking targets who barely knew the meaning of the word "mild, civil disagreement", much less "hostile conflict". Remember, Lucifer *invented* the concept of lying -- until he came around, the entire concept of not telling the truth was a total unknown to everybody in Heaven (save possibly Yves). The First Balseraph, pre-Fall, was like a velociraptor in a kitten cage. > >The first counter-argument to the paragraph above that comes to mind -- > >i.e., that it's really the combined talents of Lucifer, Malphas, *and* > >Israphane -- runs into another objection... i.e., that for the task of > >inducing a Superior to Fall, either Lucifer or Malphas would insist on > >handling the final phase themselves. (And Lucifer, at least, can mask his > >identity even from your average Archangel.) > IYC, perhaps; canonically, Malphas is likely to be pleased with anyone who > 'gets it', and Lucifer is as inscrutible as it gets. Even per protoCanon, > in the discussion of Khalid's Fall, Malphas and Lucifer, personally, have > naught to do with the final phase; it's purely between Khalid and the > Seraphim Council. The 'final phase' is the last thing Malphas says to Lucifer. If I have a plan to drop a rock off a building and kill someone, the final step of my plan is when I let go of the rock. Even if it won't hit the ground until later, the final step that I executed is the dropping, not the landing. [snip] > However, last I checked, the entirety of the game focuses not merely on > the plot, but the players as well, Israphane is an NPC. > as they perform their day to day duties, in the course of the War. > The actions of one individual can bring about all manner of changes, > be they for woe or for weal. Why yes, of course they can. However, the average game doesn't usually have the PCs withstanding mind-bending forces that are allegedly capable of mind-screwing over Superiors. Think about it. If this guy is supposed to be able to turn the Archangel of Faith into an apathetic atheist merely by talking to him, elude the Order of the Eternal Sword for decades, personally invoke Lucifer to save his heathen butt when need be, and is specifically and *emphatically* stated in his write-up to have never failed an assignment in his entire history... then how in remotely plausible heck are the players ever supposed to beat this guy? I said this NPC was too pumped up, and I stick by that statement. > While you may feel it unnecessary to have such an individual, it not only fits > rather snugly into the canongarb, but doesn't infringe excessively upon > existing servitors and Superiors. The who whatting how with huh? If this guy can do half of what Ryan said he could, then he *don't* "fit snugly", and he darn sure is "infringing excessively". [snip] > >This is part of what I meant in my earlier e-mail re: 'rejecting smart good > >guys'. We cannot grant Ispraphane by plot fiat that degree of > >intelligence which would be reasonably expected of him by his station and > > background by unless we extend the same privilege to Khalid... who, as > > a Superior, and not one mentally limited by catastrophic insanity a la > > Saminga or Belial, would have an even greater amount of it. > He is hampered by confidence, both in himself and in his fellow > Archangels, along with theirs in him. Which is why the optimum time to have sent this guy along to Khalid's address, had he existed in canon, would have been *before* the events of "Final Trumpet". At that point, Khalid was mentally quite vulnerable. However, having met his crisis of faith and come out the other end as a better angel, he's not going to fall for the same tactics as used on him before. Remember, so far all victory-for-Israphane scenarios presented have relied upon Khalid actually being willing to sit still and let Israphane take his verbal swings without swinging back... and a simple Celestial Shields can shut down his resonance faster than Michael's Axe can shut down a gremlin's vital signs. Not to mention Maurice's wonderfully cogent point re: the "no celestial interference in Destiny/Fate allowed" rule rendering this guy's function a lot less useful overall, and Rolland's *really* good point about Superior-level Elohite resonances seeing Israphane's true motives coming a mile away in a coal mine at midnight. > One might say the entire War is, when you get right down to it. And that doesn't > mean that Khalid isn't smart; however, he is, if only slightly ineffable, just as > fallible as any other Celestial, which HAS been demonstrated. There is the kind of fallibility known as the wrong choice in an ambiguous situation with bad data (and the First Balseraph himself pushing at your head), there is the kind of fallibility known as taking a long while to finally get over your emotional crisis... ... and then there's the kind of fallibility known as 'repeating the exact same mistake that got you into this mess once, as well as forgetting the most basic tactical uses of Songs, your resonance, your attunements, ' > On a similar level, Laurence, himself, is not only far from being faultless; > he's been a failure on a number of occasions! See my other post on precisely that topic. [snip] > >By the same waving of the Plot Device Wand, Khalid would have Faith that > >wouldn't be so easy to destroy. > > But it has proven, not necessarily EASILY shaken, but it CAN be harmed. - ------------ VIEW ON GOD For Khalid, Gold is the final, absolute authority in all things. His word his absolute, His will is not to be questioned. Though everything happens as God wills it, this does not absolve the faithful of their obligation to serve and obey Him -- and most of all, have faith in Him. Khalid /knows/, with a strength of conviction beyond faith, that God will set the universe to right in the end. VIEWS ON THE WAR While Khalid remains militant, and as merciless towards Diabolicals and ethereals as he was while a Servitor of Uriel, he does so out of duty to God, not because he feels such zeal is really /necessary/. Everything is preordained, after all; Lucifer cannot possibly prevail. To Khalid, the entire War can only be a pointless exercise from the demon's point of view. >From his own point of view, it is an opportunity for the faithful to commend themselves, and for God to demonsrate his righteousness, glory, and mercy. [...] - ------------ - -- Superiors 3, pg, 83 Not only does this not sound like an Archangel who would be especially vulnerable to Israphane's manipulations (apparently, the broken bone finally healed to be stronger than the original break), it sounds like an Archangel that would step on Israphane's head like a Sledge-O-Matic on a watermelon the instant he first laid eyes upon him. [snip] > What was that about Smart Superiors? Come on, now, you can do better than > that. He's an elohite, not a psychic. Huh? Elohim *are* psychic, especially Superior-level ones. > He'll engage in debate, Why should he? No, really. What good reason is there at all for sitting and talking to Israphane? How would it serve Heaven? (1) None. (1) And remember, angelic Superiors generally don't stop to preserve demons for later Redemption unless the demons are likely-looking Redemption candidates... which Israphane most emphatically is not. Novalis is of course an exception, but that's her Word -- not Khalid's. > but that doesn't mean he'll be directly harmed or not; remember, there's been > a bit of heart-eating in the past...(thank you Valefor!) ... As I said in another prior post -- the last time I tried to use that argument as an established fact, Beth gently reminded me that canon only says that that's what's *claimed* about the story of Valefor and Lucifer in Hell... and that there's no guarantee it actually happened that way. (And Lord knows that Lucifer and Valefor both like like thieves.) > and you never know, the Elohite may prove that he can be a > bit more persuasive than the Calabite can resist, himself... Given that Khalid thinks that having true Faith and then breaking it is a greater sin than anything, I can't really picture his response to a demon whose entire raison d'etre is destroying faith via mental coercion as being anything other than the heavy Smiting. Lord knows that Israphane is one of the least likely beings in creation to have Khalid willing to invite him to eat his food. > This is also why you seldom see much direct superior-conflict, of course, > but that's also due the amount of potential dice-rolling and canon-spindling > involved. Actually, when Superiors meet, there's no dice-rolling involved -- the DM simply picks the day's winner. Superiors are, explicitly, beyond stats. > This particular conflict, between a sufficiently powerful (and > rather disturbingly plausible) wordbound and minor Archangel Khalid is not a minor Archangel. [snip] > >Eventually? If Khalid wants to tactically withdraw, he can do so in an > >instant and Israphane can do nothing. If Khalid wishes to summon > >reinforcements, he can do so in an instant and Israphane can do nothing. > >If Khalid wishes to soul-kill Israphane, etc, etc. > Not quite; he's an elohite, remember? NOT a Malakite. Ever notice that both the Elohim Superiors are clear members of the *War* Faction? > And he has his own word to promote as well. Now, I'm sure he's > a great Archangel, and all, and he's a rather deep, involving character, > but he's anything but perfect. He doesn't have to be perfect to make the basic intuitive leap that willingly engaging Israphane in a debate is an action that might lead to great harm but has no countervailing chance to lead to great good. IOW, that it's simply not worth it. This is basic. *Human*-level intelligence could figure this out, if said human possessed all pertinent data to the problem. Well, most of the humans who Israphane deals with don't possess that, to their sad misfortune. But Khalid *does*. [snip] > Also noted is that Israphane's extent of power is deliberately left > unrevealed. Doesn't matter. Even if Israphane *was* a minor Superior in disguise, that still doesn't change the fact that he can do *nothing* to harm Khalid unless Khalid deliberately sits there and lets him have the chance. Israphane can't mind-screw you unless you debate him, and whether or not you debate him is *your* choice. The inference is simple. [snip] > >The only way it can be 'eventually' is if Khalid does nothing except sit > >there and allow Israphane to keep taking free swings... which is beneath > >even Saminga's intellectual talents. > Okay, what part of 'My faith is impervious, even to the lowliest > infidel' are you not getting? Khalid -does- have the occasional bad > judgement call, and it isn't based on intelligence at all; it's based on > PRIDE. Which, again, is why the best time to send Israphane around would have been *before* "Final Trumpet". Because the whole *point* of that story arc was Khalid learning about the folly of Pride -- and rejecting it. His faith is doubly impervious now *because* he humbly submits himself to Allah, rather than feeling so proud about his strength. It's not his strength, after all, it's God's. > And Khalid's pride in both his word AND his Allah may -mandate- > that he do so, because to do otherwise is to contradict itself. Remember that even a Superior is mentally capable of just going ahead and eating the Dissonance... and will do so if the risk isn't worth it. Michael's own Word-nature would, in one interpretation, compel him to go start Armageddon *right now*... because stalling would, in a sense, be 'backing off from a fight'. But he doesn't. Why? Well, it probably has something to do with his having an IQ measurable in whole #'s. > That's admittedly one of SEVERAL readings, Yes, it is. And it's the reading that gives Khalid the least credit of all, the reading that says that he's learned *absolutely nothing* from prior events and will be blithely repeating the exact same mistakes that got him in trouble the first time -- only worse. Remember what I said about 'rejecting intelligent good guys'? If your villain can only look really good if he's facing a stupid hero, then the villain needs a remake. You don't tear down an established character just to build up your fanfic version. "Do not trample over old friends, in your rush to make new ones." -- The First Law of the Emperor - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2639 ********************************