in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 15 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2640 In this digest: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> little query Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II IN> little query IN> More dialogue from my PBEM IN> It wasn't *that* funny ... Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II IN> ADMIN][ About Pictures on the IN List IN> IN case we didn't notice, intelligence is not omnisence... [Was Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II] IN> Can I please second this request? IN> War Faction and Elohim IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim Re: IN> little query Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim Re: IN> It wasn't *that* funny ... Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> ADMIN][ About Pictures on the IN List IN> Good Omens Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Re: IN> ADMIN][ About Pictures on the IN List Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... IN> More dialogue from my PBEM Re: IN> The Hyacinth Brotherhood ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 05:39:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II - --- Patrick None wrote: > if you want to balance your argument that your Super NPC > (he's pretty huge, > including a fundamental shift in the abilities Kronos > grants) has a chance > against Khalid - because drama should win out over > numbers, mainly - then > how come your Super NPC has never failed? Because that makes for a good story. One could easily run Israfane's first failure in-game, and the fact that he has never failed before makes it more dramatic. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:47:06 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Walton" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 7:39 AM Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II [snip] > Because that makes for a good story. One could easily > run Israfane's first failure in-game, and the fact that he > has never failed before makes it more dramatic. Or destroys suspension of disbelief entirely. If this guy's supposed to be the Pre-Crisis Superman of faith-destroyers, then how'd the PCs ever believably beat him? - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 05:55:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II - --- Gregg Forge wrote: > while I don't disparage the AAs in general, their > lack of Unity of > purpose isn't working to their advantage... Heaven doesn't lack unity of purpose, they merely disagree on methods. Hell, OTOH, lacks unity of purpose in a big way. And Lucifer wants it like that. That said, the First Balseraph's plans do tend to occur on scales that most beings find unfathomable. > that doesn't mean that Khalid isn't smart; > however, he is, if only slightly ineffable, just as > fallible as any other > Celestial, which HAS been demonstrated. I quote, "As fallible _as any other Celestial_" (emphasis mine). May I presume that Israfane falls within that category? My final comment on this thread; Israfane is a powerful and competent NPC. It makes sense that he is powerful and competent enough to be a serious threat, even to an AA. That's good drama. What I (and, I suspect, others) object to to is the apparent assumption that it would be easy for him to take down Khalid (I acknowledge that this may be misperception on my part). It should not be easy for him, nor should Israfane think so unless he's suffering from a healthy dose of Balseraphic self-delusion. And while it is both canonically possible and dramatically appropriate for a senior Word-bound to take on a Superior and win, I must point out that the canonical examples are of powerful demons defeating Princes. I recall no canonical examples of a senior demon taking down an Archangel. That's the precedent that Israfane is trying to set, and it should not by any means be a foregone conclusion. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:14:34 +0200 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II From: "Charles Glasgow" > Or destroys suspension of disbelief entirely. If this guy's supposed to be > the Pre-Crisis Superman of faith-destroyers, then how'd the PCs ever > believably beat him? I can't see Israfane being that powerful or unbeatable. He is an experienced demon but there is still a lot (and maybe more) Faith (in the broadest sense of the word) in the world then when he got his Word. The whole rise of fundamentalism in both the East and West couldn't make him a happy demon. The fact that he manages to destroy faith on an individual basis doesn't mean that he is a powerful or succesful demon. Also, what happens when Israfane, for example, destroys a priest's faith in Christianity and the priest then switches over to Buddhism or Islam to explain his universe? Does this give Israfane dissonance? And even science is a faith to most people, so most of the time Israfane only manages to convert a person's faith in another faith, which can't really be considered a succes for his Word. And how can he never have failed? Have you ever talked to a fundamentalist Christian or Moslim? No logicial arguments nor proof of his "delusions" will make him question his faith. When such a person has made up his on mind then it is written in stone. In the example Israfane destroys a person's faith with arguments, this is not a foolproof system as most (true) believers logic are entirely air-tight and illogical. So, what is the secret behind his unbeaten record? Donato ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:25:27 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Ryan M Roth wrote: > to him, and he had no doubts now. He had seen the angel > in its full glory, and now the angel (after assuming human > form) was taking him away to give him an important I'm guessing this was some kind of Song-based trickery, as a Balseraph's celestial form ain't glorious (except maybe in a demonic kind of way). Michael Walton wrote: > Because that makes for a good story. One could easily > run Israfane's first failure in-game, and the fact that he > has never failed before makes it more dramatic. Though it may well be just an artifact of the author's human fallibility, I spotted a logical flaw in the demon's spiel to the poor preacher that would have had me saying "Hey, wait a moment bub..." - I guess the poor preacher flubbed his Intelligence roll. Israphane said "Any religion or man which claims to know the mind and will of God is lying to you, Henry, for God is by definition unknowable." - at which point I thought "so if it's unknowable, then angel or not how come /you/ know?" But then again I'm not the one having my mind twisted by Balseraph tricks... Moe's query about whether Israphane is forcing humans to their Fate (when even Superiors can't) is one that makes me go hmm too (unless the Canon light has been turned off where this Bal in Ryan's game is concerned). And there exists the possibility that "Israphane has never failed" is simply Israphane's belief. After all, even in the vignette given, Israphane never actually /witnessed/ Henry die (or reach Hell for that matter - just how well can Hell keep track of such things?). None of his dissonance conditions would trigger if somebody else came along and saved Henry once he was out of Israphane's sight. Be kind of ironic if Israphane's own belief, his /faith/, was shattered by discovering that he'd failed... and failed badly. Finally, re the heated yet mostly civil "if he's so tough..." debate: if nothing else, the gut "this demon must be smited" reaction by some of us shows that Ryan has successfully tapped our inner righteousness. Whether or not I'd enjoy his game, I suspect as a PC I'd surely be motivated to smack down the demons in it. :) Cheers, Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:17:08 -0500 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: Re: IN> little query BC Petery wrote: >I don't see why not. Well, except that the Servitor's Superior would be >mightly cheezed off. And the Servitor's Superior would no doubt peel it off >at the first opportunity, making it somewhat pointless. Assuming that that Superior knows about it... point in case being the Bound discord (combined with Mute, and a Panda vessel. I love Dark Humour plots*. :) OK, so I could use Discord, but another thought has just come to me. What's the duration on the Song of Seals, assuming that it would fit this kind of a situation? (I don't have the LC. :sigh: Somday.) >Still, Mira Klien was in service to Blandine and she was _Force Stripped_ by >Malphas. (Rev. 5) Inflicting Discord seems very minor in comparison. Umm... is there a difference between Force-stripping and loosing a Force from Soul Hits? If there isn't, then I don't think a Superior would have any trouble at all in tearing Forces off any errant Celestial who crossed them. Inflicting Discord really seems to be _altering_ a creatures Forces, albeit in a minor way, and I would regard that as being somewhat harder than just severing them. Cthulhu * Yes, this does tie in with the Balseraph of Gluttony who's trying to breed Pandas that I posted a few days ago. Scenario forthcoming. _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:38:07 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Donato Ranzato wrote: > And how can he never have failed? Have you ever talked to a fundamentalist > Christian or Moslim? No logicial arguments nor proof of his "delusions" > will make him question his faith. When such a person has made up his on > mind then it is written in stone. In the example Israfane destroys a > person's faith with arguments, this is not a foolproof system as most > (true) believers logic are entirely air-tight and illogical. So, what is > the secret behind his unbeaten record? I suspect that's where Israphane's one-two punch of angel-of-glory Song trickery followed by super-Balseraphic resonance comes in. He's not just breaking their faith, he's breaking their mind to do so. (issues of Free Will being necessary to reach a Destiny or Fate aside) Mind you, I look forward to his first 111. Perhaps whilst debating with Khalid? :) Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:42:45 +0200 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II From: "Shane" > I suspect that's where Israphane's one-two punch of angel-of-glory Song > trickery followed by super-Balseraphic resonance comes in. He's not just > breaking their faith, he's breaking their mind to do so. So, a Balseraph can either make or break a person's faith (seems pretty powerful). As I guess this is temporarily what happens when his resonance wears off? Does the person reverts to being a believer or unbeliever? Would this give Israfane dissonance? And is there an Angel of Restored Faith? If so, how powerful is he? :-) Donato ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:50:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Unni Solaas Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II On Wed, 15 May 2002, Shane wrote: > I suspect that's where Israphane's one-two punch of angel-of-glory Song > trickery followed by super-Balseraphic resonance comes in. He's not just > breaking their faith, he's breaking their mind to do so. I thought this guy was a calabite? With the Fate-balseraph (mercurian) attunement? (Among many others) Could he use this attunement to go celestial and look like a merc? Or should I just pick up my shovel and go dig myself a nice little hole to hide while TPB scold me for asking _too_ stupid questions? :) (Yes, I belive there is such a thing as _too_ stupid questions. I just don't know what they are yet..:) - -- Stercus, stercus, stercus, moriturus sum! Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 00:15:24 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II On 15 May 2002, 15:50, Unni Solaas wrote: > On Wed, 15 May 2002, Shane wrote: > > I suspect that's where Israphane's one-two punch of angel-of-glory Song > > trickery followed by super-Balseraphic resonance comes in. He's not just > > breaking their faith, he's breaking their mind to do so. > > I thought this guy was a calabite? With the Fate-balseraph (mercurian) > attunement? (Among many others) Oops, my bad! Yup, he's a Calabite, with a funky Resonance that breaks minds (insofar as they involve faith) instead of bodies. Thus my confusion. >Could he use this attunement to go > celestial and look like a merc? Or should I just pick up my shovel and go > dig myself a nice little hole to hide while TPB scold me for asking _too_ > stupid questions? :) Um, I don't /think/ so. It's not in the core book. But then, I only have the core book and I am not TPB. Yo, is there TPB in the house? :) Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:34:02 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II Or, at least in my view, makes him a wonky sort of "oh, another supervillian. How we will ever save the mortal's faith *this week* (mortals faith inserted for the world)." Which isn't my kind of In Nom story, anyways. It threatens the suspension of disbelief - its one thing to believe that Heaven, due to how Words *work*, is fraught with internal struggle and politics, but another all together that (two? three?) angry Superiors can't deal with one ponce demon. More then that, their combined efforts couldn't stop him. *Once.* Beyond any kind of numbers, that just makes it hard to run anything but a game where the light of Heaven is very, very dark. Patrick > Because that makes for a good story. One could easily > run Israfane's first failure in-game, and the fact that he > has never failed before makes it more dramatic. > > ===== > Michael Walton, #US2002023848 > If your principles don't inconvenience you > from time to time, you don't really have any. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:35:03 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II At 03:50 PM 5/15/02 +0200, you wrote: >I thought this guy was a calabite? With the Fate-balseraph (mercurian) >attunement? (Among many others) Could he use this attunement to go >celestial and look like a merc? As an aside that I, at least, find interesting: IIRC, if he's a Calabite, he can't have the Balseraph of Fate attunement. It's restricted to Balseraphs. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:00:52 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> little query >I mean, if a Superior gets its hands on you and has uninterrupted >time and inclination to spend it being Special... Er, well, it >can get messy, y'know? So it seems to me that Superiors can do anything they want to a Servitor, but anything short of destroying Forces is kind of pointless because the Servitor can simply go to their own Superior and say, "Mean old Mr Two-Horns beat me up." Well, I suppose it could be part of a subtle plan, but I can't think of how. "Dissent is not sacred; the right of dissent is." -Thurman Arnold BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:35:45 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> More dialogue from my PBEM In a bar in downtown Philadelphia: Seraph of Creation/Destiny: It sounds like your long-range thinking is about to bear fruit. Malakite of Destiny (currently in cat vessel): I have long-range thinking? Man, I'm a cat; we live purely for the Now. Seraph: However, unlike most other cats who live purely in the *now*, you are a cat who is *now* without a bourbon. Shall I use my ability to remembr our refill order and my ability to imagine the possibilities of the future to fetch our order? Or shall I just sit here with you and enjoy the *now* of the empty bowl? Malakite: Oooh, I like hanging out with the great thinkers. I think that a future with more bourbon sounds quite pleasant. I'll cover you as soon as I'm back in a vessel that has a wallet. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:00:24 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> It wasn't *that* funny ... I don't know why my last post appeared twice. I think it's a Hotmail thing. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:13:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II At 8:08 PM -0700 5/14/02, Maurice Lane wrote: >Well, you may want to have a counterargument ready >if/when one of your players looks at you and goes >"Huh. I thought that guys serving Fate and Destiny >had to be real careful about forcing people one way or >the other, 'cuz even a little celestial interference >can queer the pitch." And this, everyone, is why the character -- who is indeed a perfectly nasty character, suitable for some campaigns and not others -- will _never_ be entirely canon. (And why no one ever needs to worry I'm going to say, "Hey, KEEN!" and stick him in. If you were worried about that in the first place.) Now, er, I see that there is a *22K* reply on this thread here, and I've had two people express a desire that the thread Have Something Done about it. I will see if a full-stop ADMIN comment is required, once I get to the bottom of my IN box, but at a minimum... 22K is too much. The 13K one isn't much better. I'm rolling up newspapers now. Start trimming posts, summarizing arguements, determining if any NEW arguements have been brought to bear, and, er, slowing down. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:27:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN][ About Pictures on the IN List Something has been brought to my attention. >"http://www.glassonion.com/index.asp?vsPage=faq" > >"Who do I contact to use one of Michael Whelan's paintings on my web page?" > >"A: We receive numerous requests from fans every day asking to use Michael's >images on their web pages. Unfortunately, Michael does not authorize free >use of his images on either commercial or non-commercial web-sites. If you >send a simple request as such, you will receive a form letter response >politely declining your request." I therefore must politely request that all IN-related materials using stolen Whelan art please be removed, and that no further ones be advertised on this list. Debates about the fairness of copyright legalities are OFF-TOPIC and anyone engaging in them will be u n s u b s c r i b e d. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:20:16 -0700 From: Gregg Forge Subject: IN> IN case we didn't notice, intelligence is not omnisence... [Was Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II] - --------------030102050106090609090502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Believe it or not, intelligent, powerful, experienced beings DO still > >>occasionally make boneheaded mistakes that anyone could have warned them > >>against. > > > >Of course they do. *They're* only human. >> Oh, you mean like Laurence? ;) > > Note that one of the operative words in David's statement is "experienced". Note also that Laurence's (few) historic mistakes have been specifically noted as having been due to his relative *lack* of experience. And finally, note that when Laurence does finally learn a lesson from experience, it *stays* learned. That still doesn't make him boneheadederror-proof. Think of the extents he'll go to in order to earn Michael's respect. Think of the extent he GOES to in order to get every Bright that manages to enter Heaven. Think of the Catholic Churh. He's STILL got a lot of learning to do... Kamika-Z ...Or, let's switch to Yves, and religion... - --------------030102050106090609090502-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:27:16 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Can I please second this request? >Start trimming posts I think this is where the 22K posts come from. It's very irritating to receive a 22k post, of which 20K is the last three comments and 2K is someone's actual response. Thank you, Janet Anderson (and it fills up mailboxes unnecessarily) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:39:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> War Faction and Elohim At 7:39 AM -0500 5/15/02, Charles Glasgow wrote: >Ever notice that both the Elohim Superiors are clear members of the *War* >Faction? This is an interesting statement. Khalid is, certs. But is Jean really _War_ faction? Discuss. (But, er, please try to keep it below 10K...?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:42:33 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... >From: Gregg Forge >Subject: IN> IN case we didn't notice, intelligence is not omnisence... >[Was Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II] >Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 12:20:16 -0700 [snip] > That still doesn't make him boneheadederror-proof. *Error*-proof, no. *Moron*-proof... I think yes. Look, the GMG can tell me only so many times that these are supposed to be superintelligent beings with inhuman patience and millennia (or *millions*) of years of perspective only so many times before I start going, hey, maybe the term "human error" doesn't quite apply any longer. >Think of the extents he'll go to in order to earn >Michael's respect. What extents? No, really? Where in canon has Laurence ever done anything mindlessly idiotic, and/or genuinely harmful to himself or Heaven, in pursuit of respect? I don't recall. Being a Superior does not render you immune to whims, passions, and emotional motivations, true. It does, however, render you immune to the more blatant forms of shooting yourself in the foot. >Think of the extent he GOES to in order to get every >Bright that manages to enter Heaven. Said 'extent' consists of putting in a request to the Seraphim Council and having a well-written pile of paperwork each time. This is idiocy? At worst, it's a minor waste of his time... no, wait, Superior multitasking and a very large and well-organized office staff. It's not even that. >Think of the [snip -- no way am I going *there*] >He's STILL got a lot of learning to do... Yes -- but anything he *has* already learned, he doesn't forget. And if there's one thing Khalid should already have learned by now, from painful experience, it's Don't Sit Down And Have Debates About Faith With Mind-Resonating Demons. I don't have to believe it infallible in order to believe it to be superintelligent. I do, however, have to believe that it's capable of learning from the past. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:46:49 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Subject: IN> War Faction and Elohim >Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:39:29 -0400 >This is an interesting statement. Khalid is, certs. But is Jean really >_War_ faction? Not having access to my books, I have to go from memory -- but IIRC, that's where the majority of his Allieds and Associateds are and vice versa. Not to mention that Lightning is pretty much Heaven's Special Weapons Arsenal. You are correct in that Jean has other activities and other significant aspects to his word besides combat, as well as a very good relationship with Yves (who is most emphatically *not* War faction)... but heck, so does David. If we use the alternate designation of 'Justice' vs. 'Mercy' factions as opposed to War and Peace factions, then Jean is even more clearly in one camp than the other. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:56:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> little query At 8:17 AM -0500 5/15/02, Cthulhu wrote: >Umm... is there a difference between Force-stripping and loosing a Force >from Soul Hits? If there isn't, then I don't think a Superior would have >any trouble at all in tearing Forces off any errant Celestial who crossed >them. Inflicting Discord really seems to be _altering_ a creatures Forces, >albeit in a minor way, and I would regard that as being somewhat harder >than just severing them. Force-stripping is mostly a controlled method, as opposed to randomly whacking. I.e., a Superior can decide _which_ Forces come off, and how many, and perhaps re-arrange attributes a little while they're in there. Other than that, they're pretty much the same. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:55:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > This is an interesting statement. Khalid is, certs. But > is Jean really _War_ faction? Well, the AA's who get weapons from him probably think (or hope) so. But as an Elohite, Jean naturally leans toward neutrality. Khalid is an aberration in this regard, and the variance is almost certainly due to his Word. While Jean does see the objective value in actively opposing Hell, I think it likely that both the Justice and Mercy factions (I like those terms a lot better than War and Peace) regard him as a swing vote. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:00:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> It wasn't *that* funny ... At 5:00 PM +0000 5/15/02, Janet Anderson wrote: >I don't know why my last post appeared twice. I think it's a Hotmail thing. Didn't show up twice in _my_ inbox -- definitely a hotmail thing! (And it was funny. I like your Seraph.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:12:38 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim At 5:46 PM +0000 5/15/02, Charles Glasgow wrote: >>From: Elizabeth McCoy > >>This is an interesting statement. Khalid is, certs. But is Jean really >>_War_ faction? > >Not having access to my books, I have to go from memory -- but IIRC, that's >where the majority of his Allieds and Associateds are and vice versa. Not >to mention that Lightning is pretty much Heaven's Special Weapons Arsenal. Jean is allied with no one, associated with Eli and Yves, and hostile with Jordi, Michael, and Novalis. (Thus putting him on the outs with both extremes of the War and Peace sides! Heh.) Hostile to Jean are Blandine and Jordi. ("Tech bad!" "No, _bad_ tech bad. Tech neutral. Good tech good." "Human tech bad." "Luddite." "Yah!") Allied to Jean is Laurence, who presumably values his Elohite effeciency and clarity. Associated with Jean are David and Yves. I think Jean splits right down the middle, camp-wise... >If we use the alternate designation of 'Justice' vs. 'Mercy' factions as >opposed to War and Peace factions, then Jean is even more clearly in one >camp than the other. Is he? O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:15:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... Charles Glasgow wrote: > Look, the GMG can tell me only so many times that these are supposed to be> superintelligent beings with inhuman patience and millennia (or *millions*)> of years of perspective only so many times before I start going, hey, maybe> the term "human error" doesn't quite apply any longer. "Secondly, Superiors have limited perceptions and intellectual abilities, though those limits are far above most other beings. It's very difficult to outsmart or outmaneuever an Archangel or Demon Prince, but it's possible. The GM should play Superiors as very canny, very experienced beings...but they're not immune to misdirection, or letting their ego get in the way of reason." The Game Master's Guide, p. 96 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:44:57 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: IN> Laurence and the Brights... From: "Charles Glasgow" > > >Think of the extent he GOES to in order to get every > >Bright that manages to enter Heaven. > > Said 'extent' consists of putting in a request to the Seraphim Council and > having a well-written pile of paperwork each time. This is idiocy? At > worst, it's a minor waste of his time... no, wait, Superior multitasking and > a very large and well-organized office staff. It's not even that. And the Brights havea very useful ability, which could (in the right hands) be a terrifyingly effective weapon against the other side. So of course he'll try to get each of these extremely rare celestials; he'd not be a good commander if he didn't at least make the attempt. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:16:35 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> ADMIN][ About Pictures on the IN List >I therefore must politely request that all IN-related materials using >stolen Whelan art please be removed, and that no further ones be advertised >on this list. Erk. I forgot to check the copyrighting. Given this, I'll be taking down my wallpapers by...Saturday at the latest. (My schedule's getting kind of cramped.) No more based on Michael Whelan's artwork, or other professional artists, will be posted here. Sorry, all. ~S.D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:41:55 +0200 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: IN> Good Omens I was wondering if someone has done write-ups from the two celestials from the book "Good Omens", namely Aziraphale and Crowly. My campaign is located in London and I was thinking of introducing the two. Donato ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:41:37 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... >From: David Edelstein >Subject: Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... >Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:15:06 -0500 >"Secondly, Superiors have limited perceptions and intellectual >abilities, though those limits are far above most other beings. It's >very difficult to outsmart or outmaneuever an Archangel or Demon Prince, >but it's possible. The GM should play Superiors as very canny, very >experienced beings...but they're not immune to misdirection, or letting >their ego get in the way of reason." And nothing in there really contradicts what I said -- a) the term "human error" doesn't necessarily apply here, and b) while a Superior is not mistake-proof, repeating the exact same (very) elementary error that said Superior had just learned not to do via very painful experience is beneath even Saminga's talents. Well, *maybe* Saminga. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:26:18 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... Charles Glasgow wrote: > And nothing in there really contradicts what I said -- a) the term "human> error" doesn't necessarily apply here, Actually, it was a pretty good description of "human error." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:02:00 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim > > This is an interesting statement. Khalid is, certs. But is Jean really > _War_ faction? > > Discuss. I paint Jean as an irritatingly logical vote. Its note that he's hostile to Michael and Novalis because he dislikes them, but its well within 2n that their Servitors are acting in an irrational fashion (from the point of view of someone not serving those 2 words) at any given point. He provides the exact counterpoint to Jordi's Grr, grrr, who saved more chipmunks this week? vote. He carefully considers every issue, and if he votes against you in Council you can almost always rest assured that it was with good reason. To Jean, there is no "minor vote" in council - reflective of his micro manager attitude. This is *heavy* on Jean; being the sole Elohite in the Council for a long time, and now the only neutral Elohite, is a lot of pressure for one of the younger Superiors. Especially since he's had to change the scope of his Word a *lot* with time, especially after he had to pick up the ball of a lot of Raphael's duties. While Jean doesn't wallow, it does explain why he appreciates the free coffee Marc brings. Patrick digs on Trade and Lightening ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:13:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Matter of Faith Part II At 8:08 PM -0700 5/14/02, Maurice Lane wrote: >Well, you may want to have a counterargument ready >if/when one of your players looks at you and goes >"Huh. I thought that guys serving Fate and Destiny >had to be real careful about forcing people one way or >the other, 'cuz even a little celestial interference >can queer the pitch." And this, everyone, is why the character -- who is indeed a perfectly nasty character, suitable for some campaigns and not others -- will _never_ be entirely canon. (And why no one ever needs to worry I'm going to say, "Hey, KEEN!" and stick him in. If you were worried about that in the first place.) Now, er, I see that there is a *22K* reply on this thread here, and I've had two people express a desire that the thread Have Something Done about it. I will see if a full-stop ADMIN comment is required, once I get to the bottom of my IN box, but at a minimum... 22K is too much. The 13K one isn't much better. I'm rolling up newspapers now. Start trimming posts, summarizing arguements, determining if any NEW arguements have been brought to bear, and, er, slowing down. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 20:30:27 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> ADMIN][ About Pictures on the IN List At 04:16 PM 05/15/02 -0400, S.D. wrote: >Given this, I'll be taking down my wallpapers by...Saturday at the >latest. I think you're missing the point. You expose yourself *and* SJ Games to trouble if you represent Whelan's artwork as In Nomine wallpaper. Please take them down *now*. - -- The meaning of life can be revealed <*> hackard@io.com but never explained. -- Kenneth Rexroth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 21:17:58 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Intelligence, omniscience, and subject headers that... The GM should play Superiors as very canny, very >experienced beings...but they're not immune to misdirection, or letting >their ego get in the way of reason." > >The Game Master's Guide, p. 96 THANK you. Thankyouthankyouhankyouhankyouhankyouhankyou. I need to find my copy of the GMG again. Unless it's as stolen as I think. Kamika-Z, who evidently keeps forgetting to make that point... _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:35:45 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> More dialogue from my PBEM In a bar in downtown Philadelphia: Seraph of Creation/Destiny: It sounds like your long-range thinking is about to bear fruit. Malakite of Destiny (currently in cat vessel): I have long-range thinking? Man, I'm a cat; we live purely for the Now. Seraph: However, unlike most other cats who live purely in the *now*, you are a cat who is *now* without a bourbon. Shall I use my ability to remembr our refill order and my ability to imagine the possibilities of the future to fetch our order? Or shall I just sit here with you and enjoy the *now* of the empty bowl? Malakite: Oooh, I like hanging out with the great thinkers. I think that a future with more bourbon sounds quite pleasant. I'll cover you as soon as I'm back in a vessel that has a wallet. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 20:04:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> The Hyacinth Brotherhood Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 13:21:28 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: IN> The Hyacinth Brotherhood Interesting notion. Has anybody ever gotten away from them? And have they ever tried to go after a Eternal Swordie? Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2640 ********************************