in_nomine-digest Thursday, May 16 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2642 In this digest: Re: IN> Magog Re: IN> Good Omens Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim Re: IN> Good Omens Re: IN> Having only 3 kinds of Undead is sort of sparse, no? Re: IN> Good Omens Re: IN> Angel of the Home Re: IN> Angel of the Home RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Magog Re: IN> Good Omens IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... Re: IN> Good Omens RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... RE: IN> Good Omens RE: IN> Good Omens Re: IN> Good Omens RE: IN> Good Omens IN> Calabim of Technology Re: IN> Good Omens Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... IN> Balseraph resonance Re: IN> Magog Re: IN> little query Re: IN> Balseraph resonance Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Balseraph resonance RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:43:49 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Magog From: "Adams, David" > > Now if someone would be so kind as to tell me which book the > published one is in, I can continue on my merry way. Revelations 5: The Final Trumpet. Would have sent that in reply to your original query, but I assumed you knew about it already. Sorry about that. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:05:00 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens Kelly Pedersen wrote: > > --- David Edelstein wrote: > > Kelly Pedersen wrote: > > > Actually, if you stick to canon, Crowley's a > > > Balseraph. > > > > If you stick to canon, Crowley and Aziriphale don't > > exist, so that's a > > moot point. > > Of course, this arguement could be used to justify > ignoring any Band or Choir for them, or Superior, or > anything. Its just one more data point potentially > tying the two worlds together. > > > Crowley's personality doesn't even remotely fit that > > of a Balseraph. > > Does his personality really resemble _any_ Band that > closely? He doesn't lie pathologically, or think he's > always telling the truth (As an aside, _can_ > Balseraphs make use of the Lying skill without using > their resonance? No. I don't remember whether it's in the IPG or the errata for the main book, but one of them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:53:25 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> War Faction and Elohim >At 7:39 AM -0500 5/15/02, Charles Glasgow wrote: >>Ever notice that both the Elohim Superiors are clear members of the *War* >>Faction? > >This is an interesting statement. Khalid is, certs. But is Jean really >_War_ faction? > >Discuss. >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ I wouldn't put him there, to be certain. Rather, I'd say he plays the role of academia in any war situation. From Archimedes to the modern university, academia has been employed to aid the war effort with everything from Bigger Guns[tm] to more effective strategical theory; but it has also been a primary source of support for peace. As regards Peace and War factions, I would think Jean would consciously attempt not to be thus biased -- there *is* a War on, but researchers do their best work in peace. Perhaps, if it was really necessary to pin him on one side, I'd say War faction; it's not in the nature of the Word of Lightning to be gentle. However, as has been pointed out elsewhere, though Jean has some effective troops under his command, most of his angels are more effective in roles behind the front lines. (Although Jean may simply draw the "front lines" elsewhere.) More to the point, I would regard him not so much a *neutral* vote as a *moderating* vote. Most other Elohim can afford to remain objective and balanced on their own, but as a member of the Seraphim Council Jean would have a responsibility to help make it the most effective body that it could be, and focusing on a single method of winning the War would be unwise until it was strongly evident that this method promised success. Thus, if things are starting to swing towards the War faction, Jean starts talking up calmer methods, whereas if the fluffier Peace members start getting loud, Jean will remind people of more direct solutions. I'm getting a picture, as I write, of a Jean that can be irritatingly hard to pin down on any issue, right up until it comes to the vote. Jean would want the most information possible before rendering a decision; he would want to be a moderating influence on the Council; he would go to great efforts to listen carefully to all sides in order to see the big picture. "I haven't decided yet..." "I'd like to hear more about..." "Let's pause and think this over..." "I'm leaning towards ___, but..." "If this isn't urgent, perhaps we should..." "Very well. I vote yea." William ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:15:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Unni Solaas Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens On Thu, 16 May 2002, David Edelstein wrote: > > (As an aside, _can_ > > Balseraphs make use of the Lying skill without using > > their resonance? > > No. A couple of months ago I consulted the collected wisdom of the list about balseraphs and lies. Some felt that bals should not be able to lie w/o resonating at all, whereas some, including a certain Evil Djinn Princess, stated that yes, a bal can state something that he knows is untrue, but he will have to eat dissonacne for that. "What I am saying now does NOT fit into my personal truth, but I'm saying it anyway and it HURTS!!" *ow* Mind you, it would take som rather extreme causes for a balseraph to do this. Resonating _is_ the default action. It's their schtick:) (Beth did come up with the example of lilim geasing a balseraph to lie w/o resonating. Either eat one point of dissonacne or suffer the pain of the geas. Those would have been Dark Humour lilim. Nasty lilim. Very nasty:) So if you want to allow your balseraph players to lie without resonating, then they should come up with a darn good story as to _why_ the balseraph is behaving in such an undignified and un(bal)seraphic manner. And hit them with the dissonance. Oh, and just so that I don't get misunderstood here: A balseraph who is himself convinced that his human neighbour is Elvis, does not _have_ to resonate when he tells it to another being. But if he wants the other being to _belive_ that the neighbour is Elvis, then he'll have to extend his will a bit.:) Bal: "My next-door is Elvis." Dude: "Yeah, right." Bal: *resonate* "My next-door is Elvis." Dude: *fails willsave* "Oh! Wow!! Can I get his autograph, you think?" There are more points, but I'll leave it for now.:) - -- Stercus, stercus, stercus, moriturus sum! Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:26:10 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Having only 3 kinds of Undead is sort of sparse, no? From: "Maurice Lane" > That would depend on the campaign: frex, in the game > that I currently run Vessels turn into silvery dust > upon corporeal death, making their later reanimation > impossible. But then, I'm not running a terribly > realistic game anyway. This also lends itself toward silly applications. Such as when my Ofanite of Destiny IST Marc surfed a demon (yes, that's right, my PC rode him like a surfboard) down subway steps and headlong into a turnstile. In front of metro police. Gilgal, my PC, scooped up the dust and tossed it into the air like glitter confetti, shouting "Happy New Year!" (It helped that it *was* New Year's Eve, btw). Just another day in the Big Apple.. - -- Casca "Calabim for *everyone*!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:35:33 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens > > No, not really. I was just pointing out a > thing that could be helpful in pegging his nature, if > one was to do a writeup of him. :) I guess my point was more that its hard to integrate the themes of Good Omens into *any* kind of In Nomine campaign I'd like to know how you'd integrate Az and Crowley - and their relationship - in a setting where Judgement and the Game, lots of hierarchy, etc, all exist. Since, at least in Good Omens, it seems like its really just Az, Crowley, and the occasional visitor from down below or up top. More so, a campaign where they worked would probably have to be one where Heaven and Hell have virtually no contrast - except the color of the body of the Voice of their Leader. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:44:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Angel of the Home - --- Stephen McIlvenna wrote: > Geniel, Angel of the Home, Cherub Vassal of Flowers Hmmm. Flowers _and_ Stone -- makes sense for that Word. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:48:25 +0100 From: "Stephen McIlvenna" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of the Home I had originally thought of the Word as belonging to Stone, but the character seemed too soft when I started writing her up (besides which I had just finished writing up a few Stone characters for something else and felt like looking at a Superior I don't normally use much). The way the character has ended up in play she probably really belongs with Zadkiel or Novalis. I do like Earl's suggestion for the name - but I'm usually too lazy to research the meaning of decent names. Stephen http://www.btinternet.com/~s.mci/innomine/inindex.html - ----- Original Message ----- From: Cameron McCurry To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 8:57 PM Subject: Re: IN> Angel of the Home > Great bit of work. In my opinion, she would be more suitable as a Servitor of Stone than Flowers, but either one works nicely. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:56:29 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... >It would be rude to deny the Brights their choice of superior. From what I >gathered, redeemed Angels are allowed to choose their superior. > >Dave Not -quite-...they first undergo eval from nearly all directions, then Laurence demands they be requisitioned to him immediately; if the Council does not agree with it, then the political circus begins as he tries to do everything in his power to get the Bright assigned to a Superior who will willingly loan him the Bright or put her IST to the Sword. This eventually leads to the Bright being assigned by the council, or so the IPG leads me to believe. Kamika-Z, who can only begin to imagine... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:05:29 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... > > >When a potentially invaluable weapon becomes available to Heaven's >forces, at least putting in a requisition request is the duty of a good >commander. > > >Ergo, Laurence puts in a request for each of the extremely rare Brights >that make it to Heaven. > > > > You're not answering the question. > >That's because your question is irrelevant to the question I *am* >answering. > The hell it is. You forget that the invaluable weapon is A) Not Field Tested B) Potentially Fragile C) Considerably Vulnerable D) Prone to difficulties due to 'user error' (IE, the commander) A commander worth his salt considers the weapon just as much as its outright utility, and if that weapon happens to be a now-fellow Angel, then those questions become more important. In particular, if Laurence is requisitioning purely out of novelty/rareness, and not regarding the hazards that will come of how he will uses the weapon, which could just as easily end up back in the hands of the enemy it came from in the first place, then I'd be even more likely to ask the same questions as Janus. Now, I ask again, because the answer affects the entirety of this issue in the first place... Kamika-Z ...is the issue considered or not? _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:07:54 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... From: "Gregg Forge" > > This eventually leads to the Bright being assigned by the council, or so > the IPG leads me to believe. Then you should read Superiors 1, as it supercedes the IPG in this matter. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:08:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... - --- Gregg Forge wrote: > Not -quite-...they first undergo eval from nearly all > directions True... > then > Laurence demands they be requisitioned to him > immediately ...but not this. As was posted earlier, Laurence requests that the Bright be assigned to him. If he were to demand it -- especially in his capacity as Commander of the Armies of God -- I doubt that there would be much argument. > if the Council > does not agree with it, then the political circus begins > as he tries to do > everything in his power to get the Bright assigned to a > Superior who will > willingly loan him the Bright or put her IST to the > Sword. This eventually > leads to the Bright being assigned by the council, or so > the IPG leads me to believe. The Seraphim Council does indeed assign Brights, but not without taking their wishes into account. It is also specifically mentioned that such decisions are usually made based on the best interests of the Bright rather than the wishes of Laurence or any other Archangel. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:09:40 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Magog >Anyone out there know of a good write-up of Magog? I am looking for the >Habbalah of Cruelty attunement to flesh out a character I have in the >works. > >Thanx > >Dave It's in The Final Trumpet, IIRC. Of course, I don't have it with me... Kamika-Z, who can give the lowdown when he gets home... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:36:50 +0200 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens From: "Patrick None" > :) I guess my point was more that its hard to integrate the themes of Good > Omens into *any* kind of In Nomine campaign I'd like to know how you'd > integrate Az and Crowley - and their relationship - in a setting where > Judgement and the Game, lots of hierarchy, etc, all exist. Well, Az and Crowley are both very desillusioned celestials who figured out that it is better to work together then against each other and who have grown to love earth and humans a little bit too much. There is nothing non-canon about that as the various sourcebooks have plenty of stories where demons and angels interact and even fall in love with eachother. The fact that two demons (Dukes) are sent to earth to kill Crowley is also how Asmodeus would react according to canon. > More so, a campaign where they worked would probably have to be one where Heaven and Hell have virtually no contrast - except the color of the body of the Voice of their > Leader. I think that it would be true to canon when a powerful demon and a powerful angel team up to stop Armageddon and (try to) rescue the world from destruction. Most of the miracles that they do can also be quite easily converted into IN songs or rites. So, the story and the characters are according to canon, only the details (Metatron, Ophis) are non-canon. Donato ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... Kronos' Balseraphs gain the dissonance and attunement of a Choir. Here's two questions, one a bit more general than the other. 1) Can a Balseraph buy this Attunement more than once? (Also applicible more generally- if an Attunment can be used in multiple ways upon purchase, can it be bought more than once?) 2) Why do Seraphim-Balseraphim gain dissoance for invoking their Balseraphic resonance? Explanation- Seraphim become dissonant by telling lies. Balserphs aren't lying. Don't really. They /utterly/ honest from their own twisted POV. Seraphim resonating a Balserph will detect that they are convinced they are being honest (APG). It seems to me that a Balseraph with the Seraph dissonance condition should just take take a double whammy when someone resist with a 6- the Balseraph just realized he told a lie and so eats two points of dissoance. WS Envisioning a new Demon of Angels- A Balseraph of Fate whose job is to make Angels drop like rocks... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:11:25 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens > > Well, Az and Crowley are both very desillusioned celestials who figured out > that it is better to work together then against each other and who have > grown to love earth and humans a little bit too much. There is nothing > non-canon about that as the various sourcebooks have plenty of stories where > demons and angels interact and even fall in love with eachother. The fact > that two demons (Dukes) are sent to earth to kill Crowley is also how > Asmodeus would react according to canon. > Right, but usually Asmodeus doesn't take what... a thousand years? To pick up on what are apparantly the only two angels for a wide, span of time (after all, they know after transforming all the guns at the training seminar that if anyone shows up, its not going to be a local. They have to make enough disturbance for someone UP THERE to notice). more so, in cannon Angels and Demons hanging out is conisdered one of the Bad Things, TM. How come not one Seraph triad member has noticed that Az flinchs when asked about "have you aided Hell in any way recently?" I mean, he does *evil* things for Crowley. its not just falling in love, they do each others jobs for convience. > I think that it would be true to canon when a powerful demon and a powerful > angel team up to stop Armageddon and (try to) rescue the world from > destruction. Most of the miracles that they do can also be quite easily > converted into IN songs or rites. > Yeah, the superpowers I'm not really concerned about. Songs, words, rites, etc. > So, the story and the characters are according to canon, only the details > (Metatron, Ophis) are non-canon. > And the unity of Heaven - legions upon legions of angels ready to kill everyone on Earth to start the War? There's at least flavor text that one of the few things Angels and Demons will be forgiven to team up on. Itd pretty much have to be a setting where Heaven had decided slaughtering the better part of every single living thing on Earth is the best course, because Heaven ONLY exists to beat hell. That's my core reasoning that Good Omens doesn't work as IN; Crowley and Az are sympathetic for seeing that Heaven and Hell are both, fundamentally, bad for humanity. Whereas that sort of (again) low-contrast game doesn't really grok with canon. Patrick > Donato > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:32:22 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... - -----Original Message----- From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] From: "Gregg Forge" > > This eventually leads to the Bright being assigned by the council, or so > the IPG leads me to believe. Then you should read Superiors 1, as it supercedes the IPG in this matter. *** Yanno... as someone avoiding this discussion so far, I feel almost compelled at this point to comment. I find this to be an exceedingly rude answer. For those of us with families, mortgages, bills, children and a semblance of a life beyond gaming books; it is quite hard to buy every book in the collection, even for a game system with the relatively small amount of published supplements. If you wish to quote something from a published source book to prove your point, please do so. To simply point out that you have a supplement that changes what is known but not provide that information is poor form in a debate. My own feelings are, I think, similar to yours, but from just reading what you've written on list, I'd have to disagree with you. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:36:37 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Good Omens I just want the car that only plays music by "Queen"; I love those guys. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:54:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Eileen Catherine Krasowski Subject: RE: IN> Good Omens No, no, it's not the car, it's the tape...any tape left in a car for longer than x number of months morphs into Best of Queen :) Although a car that only plays Queen would make an...interesting...artifact :) Eileen, fading back into the lurking background :) On Thu, 16 May 2002, Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > > I just want the car that only plays music by "Queen"; I love those guys. > - -- "We can do no great things; only small things with great love." -Mother Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:01:18 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens > No, no, it's not the car, it's the tape...any tape left in a car for > longer than x number of months morphs into Best of Queen :) Performed, its worth noting, by the original artists of the cassette, who are at *the same time* Queen. or, at least Freddy Mercury is mentioned. the whole thing is one of the most weird mental three cup games out there! > > Eileen, fading back into the lurking background :) Patrick Um. fading into the lurking background to. yaaaa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:25:29 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Good Omens Has anyone besides Queen done a "Best of Queen" album? - -----Original Message----- From: Patrick None [mailto:deadairis@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 8:01 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens > No, no, it's not the car, it's the tape...any tape left in a car for > longer than x number of months morphs into Best of Queen :) Performed, its worth noting, by the original artists of the cassette, who are at *the same time* Queen. or, at least Freddy Mercury is mentioned. the whole thing is one of the most weird mental three cup games out there! > > Eileen, fading back into the lurking background :) Patrick Um. fading into the lurking background to. yaaaa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:28:50 -0000 From: "Chris Anthony" Subject: IN> Calabim of Technology With special thanks to BrianH and Redneck. - -EDG Vapula claims that he has no Calabim ("Their unpredictably destructive fields of entropy wreak havoc on my experiments!"). However, Hell is for the liars, and Vapula does, in fact, have several - if not many - Calabim in his employ. All of them start out with the Bound Discord, at level 3, as their Band Discord. A Calabite serving Vapula is bound into an artifact: the Personal Weapon, Entropy Blaster - or P-WEB for short. This takes the form of a rifle with a backpack attached, and looks uncannily like a Proton Pack. The P-Web is an Artifact/3, which acts as a Vessel/3 for the Calabite. The function of the P-Web is simple: anytime the trigger is pulled, the P-Web fires a blast of coherent light which is the visualized power of the Calabite's entropic resonance. Anything the "bolt" strikes is affected as though the Calabite had directed its resonance against it - which, in effect, has actually happened. Of course, being Vapulan, there are two drawbacks. First, the gun may not always fire when activated. The Calabite must make a Will roll to resist using his resonance when the trigger is pulled, as though he were resisting a command from the P-Web's owner; failing the Will roll, voluntarily or not, results in the Calabite rolling for his resonance as normal - although he *adds* the level of his Bound discord to the target number of his resonance roll. If the first roll succeeds, or the second fails, the P-Web does not fire on that attempt. (Example: Bob the Calabite of Vapula decides that he doesn't like being used by Ed, the Balseraph of Vapula. He rolls to resist firing, and succeeds; the trigger clicks under Ed's fingers, without doing anything. Had Bob failed, he would have then had to roll his resonance (12 Will + 3 levels of Bound = 15 TN - - an autosuccess) whether he wanted to or not.) Second, the P-Web may fire without the owner's pulling the trigger. The Calabite must make the same two rolls as stated above, but this time if either of the rolls *fails*, the P-Web does not go off. The level of the Bound Discord, however, *subtracts* from the TN of a successful resonance roll! (Example: Ed is just walking around a Vapulan stronghold when Bob decides to cause some havoc. He succeeds on his Will roll to fire the gun, and then (with his 15 TN) rolls a 6 Check Digit - enough to deal 5 Body Hits (3 CD + Bob's 2 Corporeal Forces) to whatever the gun's currently aiming at (hopefully Ed's face).) There are also some strange effects that can come of wielding a P-Web; you see, Vapula doesn't necessarily tell his servitors how these neat weapons *work*, and his Calabim sometimes have skills and Songs of their own... Following is a sample Calabite of Vapula. Robingo Calabite of Technology Corporeal Forces: 3 Strength: 7 Agility: 5 Ethereal Forces: 2 Intelligence: 3 Precision: 5 Celestial Forces: 4 Will: 12 Perception: 4 Skills: Fighting/6, Ranged Weapon/6, Tactics/6 Songs: Celestial Light/6, Thunder/6, Ethereal Tongues/6, Celestial Tongues/6 Vessel: P-Web/3 (free) Role: The P-Web/6, Status/1 Discord: Bound/3 Robingo (call him Bob) has been bound in a P-Web for the last decade or so. Ever since "Ghostbusters", everybody thinks that Ed (the Balseraph of Technology to whom Bob has been assigned) is just a movie geek who takes things a little too far. Those who "know" think that Ed is a military tester who has been assigned to the Personal Weapon, Heavy Blaster (P.W.H.B., or P-Web, for short) project; that "knowledge" is, inevitably, assisted by Ed's Balseraph resonance. As it is, Bob is remarkably productive for a "toy" or "prototype"; his resonance is about as good as a Calabite can get without a Word (speaking of which, he's bucking for the Word of Laser Guns - running a grassroots campaign, naturally, since he can't get back to Hell) to back it up, and he generally likes his job. Unfortunately, he doesn't much like Ed; while the two usually have the same goal (blasting things), occasionally Bob bucks the reins, and he'll now and then just fire off without warning. (He tries to time this for when Ed's cleaning his muzzle; unfortunately, his Perception's not wonderful.) Bob is a balanced starting character. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:32:38 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 8:25 PM Subject: RE: IN> Good Omens > Has anyone besides Queen done a "Best of Queen" album? > Tchaikovsky's "another one bites the dust" William Byrd's "We are the champions" Beethoven's "I want to break free" the best of the lot - Vaughan Williams "Fat-Bottomed Girls." Courtesy of Crowleys Car Recordings, Good Omens, London. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:39:40 -0400 From: "Steven E. Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... W S wrote: >2) Why do Seraphim-Balseraphim gain dissoance for >invoking their Balseraphic resonance? > >Explanation- Seraphim become dissonant by telling >lies. Balserphs aren't lying. Don't really. They >/utterly/ honest from their own twisted POV. Seraphim >resonating a Balserph will detect that they are >convinced they are being honest (APG). It seems to me >that a Balseraph with the Seraph dissonance condition >should just take take a double whammy when someone >resist with a 6- the Balseraph just realized he told a >lie and so eats two points of dissoance. > More importantly: what about when a Balseraph uses his resonance to impose the truth? There is nothing in the Balseraph resonance that requires that it only be used to make others believe false things. If the Balseraph didn't commit the murders, he still can use his resonance to convince the police captain that he's innocent. Why would a Baleseraph take dissonance for making somebody believe the truth? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:48:20 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: IN> Balseraph resonance I guess I've been meaning to ask for a while. Since Balseraphs can't use the lying skill without getting a point of dissonance, doesn't that make them the crappiest liars in Hell? Most Demons have better Wills then Perception; the Balseraphic resonance is resisted with Will whereas lying is vs Detect Lies - a perception skill. What step am I missing? Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:50:08 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Magog > Didn't know there was one. I only have three books, GURPS IN, YOU ARE HERE > and Sup. 1. Now if someone would be so kind as to tell me which book the > published one is in, I can continue on my merry way. It's in Final Trumpet (Rev 5) which, as my player, You Are Not To Read. I'll let you look at the attunement on Sunday. - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:04:27 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> little query > Probably best to say that Dissonance is an internal conflict between a > Celestial's actions and Word. More dramatic. More pathos. I have a mechanic to simulate this in my chainsaw game. But then, it's adapted to White Wolf mechanics, so you'd expect some angst. ;) - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:23:43 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph resonance At 09:48 PM 5/16/02 -0400, you wrote: > I guess I've been meaning to ask for a while. Since Balseraphs can't use >the lying skill without getting a point of dissonance, doesn't that make >them the crappiest liars in Hell? Balseraphs Don't Think They're Lying. If they're caught in a lie (if it's demonstrated to them that they've lied), they gain a point of dissonance. Use of the Lying skill is willfully demonstrating to oneself that one is lying. QED. > Most Demons have better Wills then Perception; the Balseraphic resonance is >resisted with Will whereas lying is vs Detect Lies - a perception skill. Okay... what am *I* missing? *Most* demonic resonances are Will-based, and I believe *all* of them use Will to resist. This argument could thus be used against *all* the demonic resonances. It's sort of like asking why Calabim don't just beef up on Ethereal Forces, Precision, and Ranged Weapon, since a max in all three of those will yield a +12 to the check digit, as opposed to a *maximum* of 12 on their resonance check digit. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:08:25 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... >Indeed. > >And another thing I did not understand was the implicit accusation that >Laurence is 'denying them free choice' or something. Let us yet again >underline the point that Laurence is making *requests*, not demands. >Sometimes, the requests are granted. Other times, they are refused. > >At which point Laurence shrugs and continues on with his work. >Again... this is idiocy? Have you not read the IPG? p. 116 "...he wants to have them -all- at his beck and call in the War, scret weapons that can be assigned instantly, without worryinb about what some other Archangel wants them to do. As soon as he finds out about a Bright or potential Bright, Laurence brings his request before the Council." This, while portraying a rather selfishly unbecoming attitude (and perhaps necessary, as the General of the Armies of the Lord), doesn't make him an idiot in any shape of the word. However... p. 117 "...it -is- true that the Council then turns into a political circus as Laurence tries to get the Lilim assigned to someone who will put her on loan to him, and the Council tried to decide where she'll be safest." This points at willful egoism that borders on stupidity, as Laurence would be (and probably HAS been) made aware that... p. 118 "Since Geas-stripping is such an arduous process, it ay take a while before all the Geases are removed. (And her Mother will be annoyed enough to sell the remaining Geases to nasty people, ceap.) Less often, a Bright may be ambushed by Diabolicals and told to promise a Geas or be destroyed." Sometimes a new, highly experimental weapon is just what the doctor ordered; trying ALL the time, it becomes a far less sound idea. As a certain quote went, "The trick to winning a war isn't to die for your country; it's to make the OTHER SOBs die for their country." And while a Malakite is more than willing to toss upteen vessals at a problem, it's not quite the option for others. Not that a Malakite Archangel seems equipped to understand that at times. Kamika-Z, who would give enough benefit of the doubt to not say idiocy, but WOULD say it's a potential bad judgement call. (PS -- incidentally, where is it said that the other Archangels *don't* rush to put in their own requests when a newly-redeemed Bright Lilim is ready for first assignment? Brights are not just valuable and scarce resources to Laurence, they're valuable and scarce to *everybody*.) It's implicitly noted ABOVE where Laurence rushes for them. This doesn't make the others any less guilty, but then, this IS an issue about the intelligence and judgement of the General of the Armies of the Lord. NOT about the rest of the Archangels. Avoiding the subject (which, incidently, migrated WELL away from the fact that Khalid is ALSO capable of making bad judgement calls due to pride, ego, and more) doesn't change the fact that it's still fully plausible. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:15:41 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... >From: "Prodigal" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... >Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:07:54 -0500 > >From: "Gregg Forge" > > > > This eventually leads to the Bright being assigned by the council, or so > > the IPG leads me to believe. > >Then you should read Superiors 1, as it supercedes the IPG in this matter. > Good thing I have it on hand, then! Let's see where it points that out... *reads introduction* New and improved info, who does what in the War, how to explore doubts and rumors...Nope! Nothing said about supercedeing. :) Kamika-Z, not quite being AS flippant as he sounds. ;) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:17:11 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph resonance > Balseraphs Don't Think They're Lying. If they're caught in a lie (if it's > demonstrated to them that they've lied), they gain a point of > dissonance. Use of the Lying skill is willfully demonstrating to oneself > that one is lying. QED. Right, i understand the logic. > > > Most Demons have better Wills then Perception; the Balseraphic resonance is > >resisted with Will whereas lying is vs Detect Lies - a perception skill. > > Okay... what am *I* missing? *Most* demonic resonances are Will-based, and > I believe *all* of them use Will to resist. This argument could thus be > used against *all* the demonic resonances. > > It's sort of like asking why Calabim don't just beef up on Ethereal Forces, > Precision, and Ranged Weapon, since a max in all three of those will yield > a +12 to the check digit, as opposed to a *maximum* of 12 on their > resonance check digit. > > -EDG > Well, its more comparable if its said that since Calabim are destruction incarnate, if they use any weapons other then their resonance or their bare hands then they take dissonance. My problem is that it means that a Balseraph is vastly LESS likely to be able to successfully lie to many demons (since the victim doesn't even need to win a contest, as in detect lie, but simply succeed on a will roll) since they'll have a Will score that makes them capable of resisting the Balseraph resonance really often. Whereas, faced with a high Strength (for physical damage) opponent, the Calabite can just shoot him. My issue is that it seems like against demons, balseraphs are really *poorly* equipped to lie. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:24:48 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... > > Not -quite-...they first undergo eval from nearly all > > directions > > True... Sankyou. :) > > > then > > Laurence demands they be requisitioned to him > > immediately > ...but not this. As was posted earlier, Laurence >requests that the Bright be assigned to him. If he were to >demand it -- especially in his capacity as Commander of the >Armies of God -- I doubt that there would be much argument. > THAT part remains, for lack of a better term, not-so-spelled out; by MY reading, he demands, which is nothing more than a rather vocal and emphatic request. However, I will concede the point, as my view is far more 'jagged' than most. Not to mention that the hypothetical situation of Laurence full-tilt demanding such makes for a good setting in which to question how Dominic would judge that, as well as the way the other Archangels would view the matter. Mmm, internal strife... > > if the Council > > does not agree with it, then the political circus begins > > as he tries to do > > everything in his power to get the Bright assigned to a > > Superior who will > > willingly loan him the Bright or put her IST to the > > Sword. This eventually > > leads to the Bright being assigned by the council, or so > > the IPG leads me to believe. > > The Seraphim Council does indeed assign Brights, but not >without taking their wishes into account. It is also >specifically mentioned that such decisions are usually made >based on the best interests of the Bright rather than the >wishes of Laurence or any other Archangel. > Good point, and one that I had underestimated; while the Seraphin Council is the oldest, wisest organization of Judgement, they do take into account the desires of those whom they hold hearing over. And the fact that the decision is made on the Bright's behalf/best wishes is what was left understated, if not outright unstated. But it's not exactly what the Sword necessarily wants. Kamika-Z, getting a few gaming scenario ideas... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2642 ********************************