in_nomine-digest Friday, May 17 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2643 In this digest: IN> FW: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. Re: IN> Balseraph resonance RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Balseraph resonance Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Balseraph resonance RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> FW: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. IN> Ethereal/Sci fi armada and Spin Offs.. (tm) Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... Re: IN> Calabim of Technology Re: IN> Balseraph resonance Re: IN> FW: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. IN> Quote the Source (Was Larry & Brights) Re: IN> Ethereal/Sci fi armada and Spin Offs.. (tm) Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... Re: IN> Quote the Source (Was Larry & Brights) Re: IN> Good Omens Re: IN> Balseraph resonance Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... IN> Laurence and the Brights... IN> New Discords, Huzzah! IN> little query IN> Angel of the Home IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... IN> Balseraph resonance Re: IN> Ethereal/Sci fi armada and Spin Offs.. (tm) Re: IN> Quote the Source (Was Larry & Brights) Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:32:29 -0700 From: WonderGecko Subject: IN> FW: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. - ------ Forwarded Message From: HunterKillerIX@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 00:54:02 EDT To: wondergecko@dolphinmm.com Subject: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. I don't know what spawned this. ~~~~~ It all began with one small rumor, heard first by the Tsayadim risking patrol in the Far Marches. Whatever the rumor was, it was enough to stir them into action, and enough to get the warriors to actually ask for help. Something big was going on, and nobody was quite sure what. The Tsayadim weren't the only ones worried. Both Blandine and Beleth had sent scouts to investigate the growing something in the Marches.. The demons never return, and the angels never .. quite get there. It's not that they get hurt, it's just that they find themselves turned around, confused, and sent back. Some return with bemused, pleased expressions, but never quite know why. Then the Olympian Pantheon quite openly asked for protection, due to those same rumors. They didn't know what was going on either, only that on a specific date, whatever it was was going to come out of hiding to say hello to the rest of the Universe, and it frankly had most of them scared witless. There was whispered talk of weapons far beyond guns and swords, and barriers that couldn't be seen that could prevent anything from getting through. Neither Hell or Heaven consulted the other about this new threat, both assumed it was simply the other's new secret weapon, and began to prepare in force to meet this danger. Dreams, Nightmares, and Tsayadim all moved out to wait in the Marches for whatever was coming, prepared for the absolute worst, prepared for a fight to the death. The day came ... and not a soul in the Marches wasn't watching for whatever the danger was. New nightmares, new saviors... Out of everything expected, nobody expected what occured. Nobody knew what the deep thrumming vibration meant ... save one angel who suddenly smiled brightly and turned his gaze to the Marches' sky. And only the Angel of Science Fiction remained unsurprised as the first shape broke through the fog-like haze of dreams, gliding like a massive bird toward the gathered armies. USS Enterprise, NCC-1701, in her first, most beloved form, her hull gleaming sharply white, nacelles humming quietly with power ... and flanked on either side by cousins of both familiar and alien make and design. The Whitestar. Voyager. The Defiant. The Millenium Falcon. The Orion III. The Gemini 12. At first, these few, first, memorable ships ... then others. Gleaming hulls and gleaming dreams, the beliefs of millions upon millions of believers giving them strength.. and giving them a will all their own. The demons fled right about the time Captain Kirk and Captain Sheridan sent messages to the gathered Host ... and as one the fleet ... so many ships that they darkened the sky by their sheer presence ... opened fire on the Infernal forces. - ------ End of Forwarded Message Forwarded at the behest of Tara, who seems to be having some troubles sending to the list with AOL. Rar, AOL. - --Kim, Angel of Random Enthusiasm PS: I have found a Neopet named after almost every Demon Prince on Neopets. Disturbing. Haven't check all the Archangels yet, but... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:37:37 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph resonance At 12:17 AM 5/17/02 -0400, you wrote: > Well, its more comparable if its said that since Calabim are destruction >incarnate, if they use any weapons other then their resonance or their bare >hands then they take dissonance. Not really. It's more like saying that if a Calabite gets his destruction turned back on him, he takes dissonance. Which, well, he does, unless he can cover it up by destroying something else. Which the Balseraph can also do (use another lie to cover up the first). >My problem is that it means that a >Balseraph is vastly LESS likely to be able to successfully lie to many >demons (since the victim doesn't even need to win a contest, as in detect >lie, but simply succeed on a will roll) since they'll have a Will score that >makes them capable of resisting the Balseraph resonance really often. A Balseraph doesn't have to tell a lie. In fact, a lot of what a Balseraph says might be true; it's sometimes only one niggling little detail that changes his worldview from reality. Do *you* want to be making Will rolls anytime *anyone* says *anything* to you? Sooner or later you're going to fail one... The point is that Balseraphs never, *ever* believe that they're lying. Every word they say is absolute truth to them - it *must* be - it *has* to be - and therefore the Lying skill is worthless to them. What Balseraphs *are* good at, typically, is Fast-Talk; it lets them bluster someone into believing what they have to say without actually using their resonance to engulf that person in their worldview. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:41:36 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... >Yanno... as someone avoiding this discussion so far, I feel almost >compelled at this point to comment. > >I find this to be an exceedingly rude answer. It's okay! I've not exactly done much better myself, and his point IS valid, moreso because I have that book on hand. (^_^); However, I'll make a point to curtail some of my answers, similarly, as it's one thing to engage in happy, healthy debate, but another matter for us to get up in arms at each other. Kamika-Z, minding his manners... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:56:03 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph resonance > A Balseraph doesn't have to tell a lie. In fact, a lot of what a Balseraph > says might be true; it's sometimes only one niggling little detail that > changes his worldview from reality. Do *you* want to be making Will rolls > anytime *anyone* says *anything* to you? Sooner or later you're going to > fail one... If I'm another demon, and its a Balseraph? Sure. I'll keep making Will rolls. If I roll a 666, it won't hurt me, and I know that Bal will have to eat dissonance. > > The point is that Balseraphs never, *ever* believe that they're > lying. Every word they say is absolute truth to them - it *must* be - it > *has* to be - and therefore the Lying skill is worthless to them. What > Balseraphs *are* good at, typically, is Fast-Talk; it lets them bluster > someone into believing what they have to say without actually using their > resonance to engulf that person in their worldview. > > -EDG > > Fair enough. I guess I just see Balseraphs as being able to lie without realizing it - using the lie skill like a good sociopath - without imposing that lie on reality itself, running (especially against demons) a serious risk of failing and a more serious if less likely risk of dissonance. Especially since Fast Talk and Lying aren't the same, whereas a Calabite can simply get a gun. or a bat. A Djinn doesn't gain dissonance for *just* following and obsessing on someone. <> The other resonances do things, I think, that can't be really replicated via skills. Although, an Impudite is allowed to just make friends, and a Habbalite is allowed to manipulate someone's emotions without only using their resonance. Mostly, I'm trying to figure out how to balance the coolness of "Balseraphs never think they lie" with the function the lying skill fills in the game. As always, thanks! I try not to be smarmy. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:12:56 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... From: "Gregg Forge" > > > >That's because your question is irrelevant to the question I *am* > >answering. > > The hell it is. Yes, it is. You are operating under assumptions resulting from bad data. Until that is no longer the case, I see no reason to discuss this with you any further. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:17:36 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... From: "W S" > > 2) Why do Seraphim-Balseraphim gain dissoance for > invoking their Balseraphic resonance? Because the seraphic dissonance conditions depend on the truth as known to the entire symphony, whereas a balseraph operates inside its own personal symphony. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:20:56 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] > > > > Then you should read Superiors 1, as it supercedes the IPG in this matter. > > I find this to be an exceedingly rude answer. How so? I did not write the word "buy," I wrote the word "read." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 01:29:57 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph resonance At 12:56 AM 5/17/02 -0400, you wrote: I've been operating on a serious inaccuracy here: I can't find anywhere that actually says that using the Lying skill generates dissonance in a Balseraph. Oh well. :) > If I'm another demon, and its a Balseraph? Sure. I'll keep making Will >rolls. If I roll a 666, it won't hurt me, and I know that Bal will have to >eat dissonance. Yeah, but if you roll a 111, it *will* hurt you... and that Bal will only have to eat dissonance if he's actually using his resonance on you. > Fair enough. I guess I just see Balseraphs as being able to lie without >realizing it - using the lie skill like a good sociopath - without imposing >that lie on reality itself, running (especially against demons) a serious >risk of failing and a more serious if less likely risk of dissonance. Mm. If the Balseraph knows something is true, and the Symphony doesn't, then the Symphony must be mistaken. Therefore, the Balseraph uses his resonance to enlighten the Symphony, one person at a time. If the Balseraph doesn't know that the Symphony doesn't know that what he's saying is true - especially if this is reinforced by people believing him - then he doesn't have to use his resonance, and he's *still* not lying. Even if what he's saying isn't True by Seraphic standards. > Especially since Fast Talk and Lying aren't the same, whereas a Calabite >can simply get a gun. or a bat. No, they're not the same. Just like causing people's molecules to disassociate and beating them with a bat aren't the same. :) > Mostly, I'm trying to figure out how to balance the coolness of "Balseraphs >never think they lie" with the function the lying skill fills in the game. The function the Lying skill fills in the game is to allow characters to convince other people of things that the character thinks are not true. A Balseraph would never, ever do this; everything that he says *is* true. Thus no lying is involved. If it were Spreading Falsehood, Willfully Or Not, then I'd agree with you. ;) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 01:33:47 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... - -----Original Message----- From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] > > > > Then you should read Superiors 1, as it supercedes the IPG in this matter. > > I find this to be an exceedingly rude answer. How so? I did not write the word "buy," I wrote the word "read." *** How many game stores allow a person to sit around reading the books which they are selling? How many libraries have a RPG section? As I said in my original reply, you should quote the section relevant to your debate, or not bring up the other book at all. It's bad form, and now you've lost my support entirely. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 01:34:34 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... At 03:40 PM 5/16/02 -0700, you wrote: >1) Can a Balseraph buy this Attunement more than once? No. Nor can any demon other than a Balseraph of Fate buy it. http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/celestial_faq.html#rule-demons-balseraph-003 > (Also applicible more generally- if an Attunment can >be used in multiple ways upon purchase, can it be >bought more than once?) Often. Not always. See above. ;) >2) Why do Seraphim-Balseraphim gain dissoance for >invoking their Balseraphic resonance? Because they are imposing their falsehood on the Symphony, which lashes out at them (due to their essential Seraphic nature). Seraph-Balseraphs tend to be miserable creatures. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:52:20 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] > > > > How so? I did not write the word "buy," I wrote the word "read." > > How many game stores allow a person to sit around reading the > books which they are selling? All the ones which I frequent, at least for regular customers such as myself. > As I said in my original reply, you should quote the section relevant > to your debate, Had I been able to remember exactly where my copy of the book was, I would have already quoted from it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 06:25:35 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> FW: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. Oh...My. The image of a vast armada of ships from different Sci Fi realms opening fire on demons is great. Especially against Vapula and his people. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:30:26 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Ethereal/Sci fi armada and Spin Offs.. (tm) > Oh...My. The image of a vast armada of ships from different Sci Fi >realms >opening fire on demons is great. Especially against Vapula and his people. *chuckle* Hmm... sheriden shooting at the malakim thinking they are _shadows_ makes me chuckle... Although saying that, the myriad of alien forms in the sci fi realms is probably a good place to look for demonic character descs, esp for the calabim and lilim (for the Kirk Babes) *chuckle* Hmm, do you reckon there is a bunch of lilim who go round making the _nerds_ fantasies, all for a geas or three... Do the calabim work as klingon? Personally i say the Malakim are more klingon like of the angels, all that honour and fighting... And we all know that Spock was a discordant Elohite... Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 05:01:25 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... - --- EDG wrote: > At 03:40 PM 5/16/02 -0700, you wrote: > > >1) Can a Balseraph buy this Attunement more than > once? > > No. Nor can any demon other than a Balseraph of > Fate buy it. > > http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/faq/celestial_faq.html#rule-demons-balseraph-003 > > > (Also applicible more generally- if an Attunment > can > >be used in multiple ways upon purchase, can it be > >bought more than once?) > > Often. Not always. See above. ;) Damn! Ah well, I'll just have to turn on the wavering non-canon light :) > >2) Why do Seraphim-Balseraphim gain dissoance for > >invoking their Balseraphic resonance? So, I've heard two reasons- 1) Because the Balseraph is lying as the Symphony understands things. 2) Because the Balseraph is imposing falsehood on the Symphony. 1 can't be right- Seraphim become dissonant for lying, not failing to tell the Truth. Now, if they /know/ the Truth, then it would be dissonant for them to say something else- but it wouldn't be dissonant for a Seraph to repeat a lie that they thought was true. 2... I can see better, but the pedantic fellow inside me disagrees. Dissonance is (as I understand it) given when a Celestial acts against their nature- in the Seraph's case, it's by intentionally telling a lie. Ditto for the Balseraph- they just have a greater latitude, because of their resonance, as to what a 'lie' constitutes- since they /believe/ what they are saying is true, that it in fact MUST be true. They aren't 'imposing falsehood on the Symphony', they are telling it like it is, as they know things- which fits the Seraphic 'Not Dissonant', in my mind. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 05:46:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Calabim of Technology - --- Chris Anthony wrote: > A Calabite serving Vapula is bound into an artifact: the > Personal Weapon, > Entropy Blaster - or P-WEB for short. This is one of the few ways I can see Calabim getting into Vapula's service. > Bob is a balanced starting character. If you're counting character points rather than psychology... };> ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 05:48:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph resonance - --- Patrick None wrote: > Most Demons have better Wills then Perception; the > Balseraphic resonance is > resisted with Will whereas lying is vs Detect Lies - a > perception skill. What step am I missing? The fact that lies told with Lying have to be at least somewhat plausible. Balseraphic Resonance can make someone believe darn near anything if it works. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 05:56:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> FW: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. This would be fun until Hell recruited the Bugs from Starship Troopers. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:01:10 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: IN> Quote the Source (Was Larry & Brights) - -----Original Message----- From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 1:52 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > From: Prodigal [mailto:res0axj6@verizon.net] > > > > How so? I did not write the word "buy," I wrote the word "read." > > How many game stores allow a person to sit around reading the > books which they are selling? All the ones which I frequent, at least for regular customers such as myself. > As I said in my original reply, you should quote the section relevant > to your debate, Had I been able to remember exactly where my copy of the book was, I would have already quoted from it. ****** Neither your inability to find the quote, nor the friendliness of YOUR local game stores precludes you from the responsibility of giving your debate substance in the form of actually quoting the material you reference. If you don't have the material on hand when you post, use some restraint and wait until you do. Or in the very least, have the politeness to say "my books are at home/stolen by Eli/lost but I believe has information that contradicts/explains/supercedes which passage we are discussing. None of which you have done. Instead, you continue to be rude and have alienated someone who would have supported you. I guess I shouldn't say your responsibility, because it's only something that matters if you plan to hold an adult discussion, something you seem to be against. We have annoyed the list enough with this, reply offlist on this matter, but please, provide the quote that supports your stance about Laurence onlist. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 06:05:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal/Sci fi armada and Spin Offs.. (tm) - --- cassandra benner wrote: > Although saying that, the myriad of alien forms in the > sci fi realms is > probably a good place to look for demonic character > descs Works for angels, too, once you get over the idea that all angels should be cute and fluffy. > *chuckle* > Hmm, do you reckon there is a bunch of lilim who go round > making the _nerds_ fantasies Lilim of Technology. Or Lilim of Lust with the Technology Band Attunement. > Do the calabim work as klingon? Heck, no. Not honorable enough (except for those who serve the War). > Personally i say the Malakim are more klingon like of the > angels Yup. > And we all know that Spock was a discordant Elohite... Ooooo... you're gonna pay for that, Cas. 0:> ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 06:08:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... - --- W S wrote: > Dissonance is (as I understand it) > given when a Celestial acts against their nature- in > the Seraph's case, it's by intentionally telling a > lie. Ditto for the Balseraph- they just have a > greater latitude, because of their resonance, as to > what a 'lie' constitutes- since they /believe/ what > they are saying is true, that it in fact MUST be true. It's Balseraphic nature to impose the truth of their personal Symphonies on others. When they fail to do that, they've acted against their demonic natures. Hence the Dissonance. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:13:28 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Quote the Source (Was Larry & Brights) From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > > If you don't have the material on hand when you post, use some > restraint and wait until you do. Even though referencing it gives people who *can* find their copies the opportunity to quote the relevant passage? As for you lecturing me on rudeness, I will simply point out that given how rude you have been to me personally, perhaps you are letting previous disagreements cloud your judgement, and then stop responding to you (or even reading anything that you post for the forseeable future.) Have a nice life. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:35:25 -0500 From: "Cthulhu" Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens My two cents on this... They don't really fit into IN, but neither does a awful lot of the stuff that comes up on this list, so who cares? Aziraphale, by both book info and personality, has to be a Cherub, and it seems very likely that he's a servitor of Destiny. He also seems to have a weirdly modified version of the Kyrio Resonance (from whatever Distinction of Yves gives that), because after his Vessel gets destroyed he goes around possessing people, though not throwing them into the Marches... which is scarily Shedite-like. Crowley doesn't really fit anything other than an Impudite, I think, who might have originally been a Servitor to the Game, then transfered to Kronos way back when, and is now unquestionably IST Technology. I did have a writeup of them in IN terms, but I lost it in the great hungover c: format of '01. Cthulhu, not dead, merely lurking _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:48:00 -0400 From: "Patrick None" Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph resonance > > I've been operating on a serious inaccuracy here: I can't find anywhere > that actually says that using the Lying skill generates dissonance in a > Balseraph. Oh well. :) Sorry. I guess I was too: IPG, pg 27, "...when not using their resonance, Balseraph's will not lie! They do not use the Lying skill even on a default" > Yeah, but if you roll a 111, it *will* hurt you... and that Bal will only > have to eat dissonance if he's actually using his resonance on you. > And, actually looking at the main book, a Balseraphs victim always can take a Will roll to resist. Which is different then the player (or NPC coord) having to decide whether to make a Will roll every time someone talks or not. If I'm one of the many demons with a will of 7 or higher, then yeah. Every time that comes up, I will roll Will. I'm more likely to succeed then fail by a gross margin. > > Mm. If the Balseraph knows something is true, <> Even if > what he's saying isn't True by Seraphic standards. All very cool and true to setting and canon. But, it means that once you've got a decent will, Balseraphs just can't lie to you anymore. Especially since its not even a Will contest. > No, they're not the same. Just like causing people's molecules to > disassociate and beating them with a bat aren't the same. :) True that. But to the person affected, the difference is just peas and carrots. "I used lying to convince you I'm your mothers friend and should be let in/I used my Balseraphic resonance." "I beat your Soldier of God butt to death with this stick/with my Calabite resonance." Still lied to, still dead:) > The function the Lying skill fills in the game is to allow characters to > convince other people of things that the character thinks are not true. A > Balseraph would never, ever do this; everything that he says *is* > true. Thus no lying is involved. > > If it were Spreading Falsehood, Willfully Or Not, then I'd agree with you. ;) > Fair enough. I suppose that I'd read Lying to include the sort of human version of Balseraphs, who are crazy enough to believe what they're saying a moment at a time. really, I do understand the logic of why balseraphs don't get to use the Lying skill. it just seems that it means hell's greatest liars are, once you hit that statistically vital 7 Will, kinda crappy liars. Baal: My troops will take the left flank, insuring that yours are protected. Belial: No they won't. Baal, surprised: Yes they will.. No, really, I mean it! Why are you all shaking your heads like that? STOP LAUGHING AT ME! Asmodeus, choking down a chuckle: Yes, yes Baal. Your troops will cover the left flank. Thank you Baal. <> Get five legions on the left flank, Baals "tricked us" again. Patrick > -EDG > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:04:39 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... > > >That's because your question is irrelevant to the question I *am* > > >answering. > > > > The hell it is. > >Yes, it is. You are operating under assumptions resulting from bad data. >Until that is no longer the case, I see no reason to discuss this with you >any further. > Bad DATA? I'm citing from damned near every In Nomine BOOK in print. Tell me how it's bad data to cite from the book, using a reading that _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:11:09 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... > > >That's because your question is irrelevant to the question I *am* > > >answering. > > > > The hell it is. > >Yes, it is. You are operating under assumptions resulting from bad data. >Until that is no longer the case, I see no reason to discuss this with you >any further. > I'm citing every book with the sole exception of Fall of the Malakim. You want to call those Bad Data? :) Try again. And if you're not going to answer my question, might I also suggest a rather less-than-polite common usenet ancronym, in return for your dismissive avoidance of the point? ;) Kamika-Z, just as capable of condenscending disregard, but with more references. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:16:55 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Laurence and the Brights... LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! PERFORMING FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY! LET'S HEAR IT FOR... LAURENCE! AND! THE! BRIGHTS!!!!! (And now back to the nag fest. Watch the cursing guys.) "Dissent is not sacred; the right of dissent is." -Thurman Arnold BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:16:58 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> New Discords, Huzzah! >Loud (Corporeal) >There is a much more rarely seen Celestial version >which causes any Disturbance created by the celestial >to be multiplied by the level of the Discord! Sort of an audio version of the Aura Discord? I'd recommend that the Celestial version simply add to the Disturbance. But doing things that normally cause no Disturbance (Song of Tongues) now do so at the level of the Discord. >Role Reveresal (Celestial) I would skip the skill enhancing effect. Make the Servitor strive to seem more normal. If used with the Bound Discord (to a Vessel) this could make things very interesting for the "IN> little query" thread. [Nag-Nag: misspelled Reversal] "Think think, think, think, think think think." -Winnie the Pooh BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:16:58 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> little query >>Assuming that that Superior knows about it... point in case being the Bound >>discord (combined with Mute, and a Panda vessel. I love Dark Humour plots*. >>:) >If you're capturing and forcibly inflicting Discord upon the poor sucker >anyway, remember that Geas is a Discord. Only Lilith and the Lilim can Geas. But it shouldn't be too hard for a Superior to twist an arm or two. >Geas/6 -- "Do not invoke your Superior". (Alternatively, Geas/6 -- "Don't >even try to get out of this one.") Good for a year of mundane, nonthreatening Panda tasks only, so be careful. And quick, Celestially speaking. >IN> New Discords, Huzzah! >From: _W S _ >(in_nomine-digest V1 #2641) introduces the _Role Reversal (Celestial)_ Discord. The perfect thing for the discerning Joker. "Filmore, some capers you /have/ to pull, whether you want to or not." -Dr. Tod, "Thirty Minutes Over Broadway", Wild Cards, Vol. 1 Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:16:58 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Angel of the Home [I jump around a bit on this one.] An important target for Malphas. She stands against his, "A box for everyone and everyone in their own box" philosophy. Or Mammon. blockbusting n. Informal. The practice of persuading white homeowners to sell quickly and usually at a loss by appealing to the fear that minority groups and especially Black people will move into the neighborhood, causing property values to decline. The property is then resold at inflated prices. =-=-=-=-=-=-= >Antagonism is growing between Geniel and a rising Servitor of >Trade who is promoting the concept of remote-working. This reminds me of a story about Sarah McLachlan. Seems she was upset that the employees of the company producing her E-CDs were communicating primarily by e-mail and IM. It took a while for her to realize that there was _more_ communication going on across their intranet than there had ever been around the water cooler. And it was all documented, no more stressing about lost ideas. =-=-=-=-=-=-= >I especially like the fact that not only is her Word something that can be >supported by all of Heaven [snip] >, but by some of Hell also -- Lilim in Shal-Mari, for instance. The Guildhall of the Free Lilim never seemed like a home to me. More like a large hotel/convention center. You've got recruiting booths set up on the main floor and you have to pay for your room every day, in advance. (Imagining a SF/F/Shriner's/Tailhook convention that never ends. Oh! The cleaning bills!) =-=-=-=-=-=-= Interestingly the ancient greek word "Ekonomos", from which we draw the modern word "economy", refers to the work done to maintain a household. I wonder if Genny has a relationship with Hestia/Vesta, the Greek/Roman Goddess of the Hearth. "I have the strength of ten because my Heart is intact." -Pete Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:16:58 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... >It seems to me >that a Balseraph with the Seraph dissonance condition >should just take a double whammy when someone >resist with a 6- the Balseraph just realized he told a >lie and so eats two points of dissonance. I like it. It is the stick to the carrot of, "You pay the points, you get the power." Whee! I'm a Rules Lawyer! Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:16:59 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Balseraph resonance > Most Demons have better Wills then Perception; the Balseraphic resonance is >resisted with Will whereas lying is vs Detect Lies - a perception skill. The Bal isn't lying, at least not in their own minds. There are no behavioral clues, etc., to detect. Only logic or memory can prove a Bal is wrong. And if you flub the Will roll to resist you will begin doubt your own good sense. "I still don't like this ship. I have a queer feeling about it." Chief Officer (of the Titanic) Henry Wilde, in a letter to his sister. BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 18:18:25 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal/Sci fi armada and Spin Offs.. (tm) *approaches the list in a fire retardent bikini (its the best protective clothing since the Chainmail bikini trust me!!)) > Works for angels, too, once you get over the idea that >all angels should be cute and fluffy. *nods* Kosh and the other vorlons seeming to be advanced forms of Kyriotates.. Or some variant of the Mercurians, perhaps of Destiny, what with appearing in the form most appropriate for the species it is appearing to. Hmm.. *has an idea for an attunement..* > Lilim of Technology. Or Lilim of Lust with the >Technology Band Attunement. Without books to look at infront of me this seems most likely. Whats the Lil of Tech attunement again? > Heck, no. Not honorable enough (except for those who >serve the War). *chuckle* Well, it was the violence and drinking that lead me down that path. > > And we all know that Spock was a discordant Elohite... > > Ooooo... you're gonna pay for that, Cas. 0:> Do i Need to pay for it? ;) Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:21:36 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Quote the Source (Was Larry & Brights) > > If you don't have the material on hand when you post, use some > > restraint and wait until you do. > >Even though referencing it gives people who *can* find their copies the >opportunity to quote the relevant passage? > >As for you lecturing me on rudeness, I will simply point out that given how >rude you have been to me personally, perhaps you are letting previous >disagreements cloud your judgement, and then stop responding to you (or >even >reading anything that you post for the forseeable future.) Have a nice >life. ObsList: Liber Reliquarm. p53 & 54 Evidently, VapuTech's made a digital one. :) Kamika-Z ...of course, there's more than one way to read anything, as it is... _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 13:27:04 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Laurence and the Brights... BC Petery wrote: > > LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! > PERFORMING FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY! > LET'S HEAR IT FOR... > > LAURENCE! > AND! > THE! > BRIGHTS!!!!! > > (And now back to the nag fest. Watch the cursing guys.) Bored now.... - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2643 ********************************