in_nomine-digest Sunday, May 19 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2645 In this digest: Re: IN> Good Omens Re: IN> FW: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... IN> At the movies with Dominic IN> Celestial paperwork? And other Random Thoughts. Re: IN> Celestial paperwork? And other Random Thoughts. Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... IN> Re:Celestial paperwork? And other Random Thoughts. Re: IN> Re:Celestial paperwork? And other Random Thoughts. IN> Minor Superior Relations Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations IN> Lucifer's Word IN> Balseraph resonance IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... IN> little query Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:40:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Good Omens Perry Lloyd wrote: > >If you stick to canon, Crowley and Aziriphale don't exist, so that's a > >moot point. > > I didn't know that Crowley and Aziriphale were specifically cited as > characters who don't exist In Nomine game world. Crowley and Aziriphale as described in "Good Omens" clearly do not exist in IN because the events of "Good Omens" rather obviously contradict canon in a major way. Whether or not there are two celestials named "Crowley" and "Aziriphale" who may or may not resemble the character of the same name from that book is, of course, an open question. > >Crowley's personality doesn't even remotely fit that of a Balseraph. > > Way to state an opinion as though it were God-given objective truth. ;) Thank you. I'm pretty good at it, especially when I'm right. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 13:28:26 -0700 From: WonderGecko Subject: Re: IN> FW: HERE'S an Ethereal force to reckon with.. On 17.05.2002 5:56 AM, "Michael Walton" wrote: > This would be fun until Hell recruited the Bugs from > Starship Troopers. Or the Zerg from Starcraft, (who are based off the Bugs, imo), or the Aliens from Alien... ...Except that you could argue that Jordi might have an in with all of those groups. ;) After all, the whole 'biology in place of technology' AND 'out-compete the humans' thing might just tickle his fancy. OTOH, said alien races seem a little less than concerned with the local wildlife as well as the humans... - --Kim, Angel of Random Enthusiasm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 13:28:25 -0700 From: WonderGecko Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... [snippy] > > Seraph-Balseraphs tend to be miserable creatures. > > -EDG > *flicks on the 'n00b' light* Seraph-Balseraph? What's that? - --Kim, Angel of Random Enthusiasm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 20:28:28 +0000 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... >>2) Why do Seraphim-Balseraphim gain dissoance for >>invoking their Balseraphic resonance? > >Because a Seraph knows TRUTH, and a Balseraph tries >to _make_ truth. So the Bal resonates and then the >Seraph side of him says, "You LIAR!" and bam, he's >got self-contradiction and eats dissonance. Actually, as I read the Seraphic resonance, a Seraph -only- know "TRUTH" on a CD of 6, and additionally only if they're resonanting to begin with. Otherwise a Seraph can't even tell that what a Balseraph is saying is very likely false. The Balseraph attunement doesn't allow the Balseraph to - -lie-, just to impose his twisted world-view on others (I had thought). Now, it's very likely that a Balseraph-Seraph might not be able to use his Resonance on himself to evade Dissonance as described in the IPG (memory's hazy on this one). Or was this canon decision based on game-play reasons rather than metaphysical ones? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________ T鬩chargez MSN Explorer gratuitement ࠬ'adresse http://explorer.msn.fr/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 22:38:08 +0200 From: "Donato Ranzato" Subject: IN> At the movies with Dominic So, when can we expect the next "At the movies with Dominic" where he reviews Episode II? A perfect guest would be Laurence :) Donato ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 19:45:52 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: IN> Celestial paperwork? And other Random Thoughts. Alright, this is a question that's been bugging me for a while. In cannon, it seems like most celestials don't go Earthside, on either side of the War. This makes some sense for demons, as they have jobs to do in Hell- namely, extracting Essence from the Damned. However, for some Bands and virtually every Choir, it seems as though they would be much, MUCH better used on Earth than in Heaven (or Hell). Malakites, for instance. The only Virtues who wouldn't need vessels for the destruction of demonic-vessels should be those hunting in the Marches, or actually raiding into Hell itself. Also, mostly for angels, I fail to see how getting Earth duty is a sign of Favor From On High. After all, Heaven is /nicer/ than Earth. Some Choirs (Seraphim come to mind) would probally abhor Earthly jobs. Lastly, does anyone else feel the way Shedim are portrayed mechanically and themeatically is a bit... off? The 'voice in the head' corrupter motif is great, but doesn't fit well with the Sheddite's essentially total control over the person. So, I've been thinking about replacing it in my game such that when a Shedite possesses someone, they make a choice- either they try to take total control (in which case it's resolved by a straight Will contest every day, with the possessed getting a +1 bonus each day past the first- being kicked out causes Dissonance as someone asserts their will against that of the demon), OR they can automatically becoming a corrupting influence- the person becomes a Servant, with a level of the CD on the resonance check. They remain fully aware of who and what they are- but they Sheddite can issue orders to act differently, which are then each resisted at some penelty. Each time the person successful resists a command, their effective Servitude to the Corrupter goes down by one- when it reaches zero, the Shedite is expelled. This is a collection of random thoughts, inspired by seeming contradictions. For my next trick, unless someone can point out where he's already been written up- Meserach, long-devoured Prince of Sloth! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 00:57:20 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial paperwork? And other Random Thoughts. > This is a collection of random thoughts, inspired by > seeming contradictions. For my next trick, unless > someone can point out where he's already been written > up- Meserach, long-devoured Prince of Sloth! Doug Muir did a great version of him on 11/01/2000, which I'd be happy to send to you if you can't find it in the list archives. - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 05:15:12 -0400 From: Eric Eves Subject: Re: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... WonderGecko wrote: > [snippy] > >>Seraph-Balseraphs tend to be miserable creatures. >> >>-EDG >> >> > > *flicks on the 'n00b' light* > > Seraph-Balseraph? What's that? > > --Kim, Angel of Random Enthusiasm Balseraphim of Kronos, with that Balseraph attunement of his that gives them the resonance and dissonance condition of a choir of angel. Specifically, the ones who have the Seraph attunement. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 09:33:23 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Re:Celestial paperwork? And other Random Thoughts. >From: W S >This makes some sense for demons, as they have jobs to do in Hell Don't forget the hordes of angels all just singing the praises of the Almighty. However, >for some Bands and virtually every Choir, it seems as >though they would be much, MUCH better used on Earth >than in Heaven (or Hell). Ah the way i approach this is simple, the attunemnts and stuff as featured in the rulebooks is what the players get if they are assigned to corporeal duty. Celestial duty gets different attunements, or tinkered versions of the corporeal ones. >Malakites, for instance. >The only Virtues who wouldn't need vessels for the >destruction of demonic-vessels should be those hunting >in the Marches, or actually raiding into Hell itself. Ah but if they are in the marches, then tinker the rules so that they have a Etherial vessel. Seeing as the rules for the etherial side of things just say they have a etherial seeming that is appropriate to their vessel/chior. As for malakim invading hell, well theres a couple of angels on the front gates that only allow the Damned to enter, so the pesky mala-mosquitoes best find anothewr way in, which means going through the marches, which means getting permission from blandine to travel through her tower gates, then through the marches an infinite distance through the various other gods domains, and the sleep/dream bubbles then in to beleth realm and well, frankly getting stopped there. They could go through a tether of hell... >Also, mostly for angels, I fail to see how getting >Earth duty is a sign of Favor From On High. Depends if you use something akin to the Eden ban (although not as severe). Some Choirs >(Seraphim come to mind) would probally abhor Earthly >jobs. Ah but Earth is one of Gods creations and is part of the symphony and thus is to be loved as God is to be loved... >Lastly, does anyone else feel the way Shedim are >portrayed mechanically and themeatically is a bit... >off? The 'voice in the head' corrupter motif is >great, but doesn't fit well with the Sheddite's >essentially total control over the person. Um, its the kyriotates that get total control, depositing the human soul in to the marches for a while (a sper Quantum Leap). The Shedite is the Voice in the head, it sites and rides, and slowly degrades the person over time. A post i made about a year and a half ago was about the Corrptishness of the shedites and how it slowly works its way like a poison in to the hosts body. Heres the link to it online. http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/shed.html It even mentions why a Shedite gets kicked from a host, in much the same way you mention it. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 05:28:58 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> Re:Celestial paperwork? And other Random Thoughts. > Don't forget the hordes of angels all just singing > the praises of the > Almighty. That's a lot of angels to not have any more Earthside. Somehow, I think Michael, at the least, would have a problem with that. 'You wanna show God you love him? You want to render glory unto the Most High? Then get down there and take an active hand in protecting the planet!' > Ah the way i approach this is simple, the attunemnts > and stuff as featured > in the rulebooks is what the players get if they are > assigned to corporeal > duty. > Celestial duty gets different attunements, or > tinkered versions of the > corporeal ones. > While that could be, it still seems wasteful to keep, say, Impudites or Mercurians, on Celestial duty if they aren't activly in trouble. [snip, invasion of Marches and Hell] I can easily imagine a slightly different Laurence forming an Order who activly hunts in the Marches, rather than simply remaining on border patrol. First, they get to the edge, and then they cross it, and then they beat on some demons. Also, do the Angels of Final Judgement actually keep the worthy out of Hell, or just prevent them from being Damned? I thought it was the later, in which case an angel certain could stride through the Gates of Hell. (Well, cept for the Massive Hoardes of Demons. But anyways... ;) > >Also, mostly for angels, I fail to see how getting > >Earth duty is a sign of Favor From On High. > > Depends if you use something akin to the Eden ban > (although not as severe). > Except the Eden Ban is no longer in effect- Celestials are now /allowed/ to go Corporeal, and muck about with humanity. It's not encouraged, per say, but it is allowed. That removes most of the mystique-goodness from Earth, IMO. > > Ah but Earth is one of Gods creations and is part of > the symphony and thus > is to be loved as God is to be loved... > Be as may, not every Word is expected to love God's Greatest Creation too terribly, it would seem (See Also: Jordi). It seems like a rare Seraph would feel enough warm fuzzies to /enjoy/ being among a bunch of dissonance generating loons (See Also: Humanity). Corporeal duty, for the Seraphim, should almost be reserved as either punishment duty or 'Only a Seraph can do this' duty. > > Um, its the kyriotates that get total control, > depositing the human soul in > to the marches for a while (a sper Quantum Leap). > The Shedite is the Voice in the head, it sites and > rides, and slowly > degrades the person over time. I'm not saying that's not how they are presented thematically- but the mechanics don't reflect that at all. A person with a Sheddite riding them essentially becomes a passive observer as the demon has them do whatever they want, in addition to corrupting them. Now, granted, this is so the Sheddim are playable as PCs, but it seems a bit off to me- hence the proposed comprise with the possesed becoming a Servant of the demon. The DM then would have the NPC continue going through their regular day- except where the Sheddite needs them to do otherwise. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 07:12:25 -0700 From: Arovyn Subject: IN> Minor Superior Relations I was wondering what the relations between all of the so-called-Minor Superiors was to everyone else. I can make some inferences, but I'm still curious. We know that Zadkiel (my favorite) is Allied to Novalis, Gabriel, Marc, and Yves (as is printed in Heaven and Hell), but who is Allied to her in return? It's not that hard for me to make up my own relations for my game, but I want to use the so-called-Minor Superiors in a much bigger way than canon currently does, and I was looking for the specific canon relations between them if they exist. I know the Supeior quotes are posted at the SJ site (but only between themselves, not the whole lot of Superiors *sigh*), but none of the relations are. Can anyone give me the canon answer or is there not one? Arovyn Order marches with weighty and measured strides; disorder is always in a hurry. ­Napoleon I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 15:04:00 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations >From: Arovyn Hullo, not seen your name on here before. But i probably wasnt looking at names, just topic titles.. >We know that Zadkiel (my favorite) is Allied to Novalis, Gabriel, Marc, and >Yves (as is printed in Heaven and Hell), but who is Allied to her in >return? Well, seeing as she is Michaels sheild maiden, i'd say she is strongly supported by and insupport of him. In my games she is his 2nd incommand, and liases with the Sword a great deal. She and Christopher are also on very good terms i think, seeing as Children utilises Protection a great deal over its charges. I personally think that she and Litheroy would be at great odds with eachother, seeing as she Protects and Litheroy doesnt care so much so long as the Truth is there for all to See. But then again, Revelations could be a strong word to support Protection, all depending in how you play it. I use Litheroy as a very brash uncaring angel, borderline disonant. Litheroy and Dominic would be on good terms, but Marc might have a problem with him once in a while if he shows too much stuff too soon, same as Jean would consider Litheroy dangerous to Humanity as a whole. But thats just my take on it. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 08:22:29 -0700 From: Arovyn Subject: Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations On Sun, 19 May 2002 15:04:00 +0000 cassandra benner wrote: >From: Arovyn Hullo, not seen your name on here before. But i probably wasnt looking at names, just topic titles.. - ---Eh, I was around a LONG time ago, but left not long after the line was put on hiatus which was an odd bit of timing. I started a new job with odd and shifting hours that prevented me from keeping up. But I'm back, because of my love of the game. I've been lurking a while. >We know that Zadkiel (my favorite) is Allied to Novalis, Gabriel, Marc, and >Yves (as is printed in Heaven and Hell), but who is Allied to her in >return? Well, seeing as she is Michaels sheild maiden, i'd say she is strongly supported by and insupport of him. In my games she is his 2nd incommand, and liases with the Sword a great deal. - ---Where's that reference at? I seem to have missed it, but I would definately agree. She and Christopher are also on very good terms i think, seeing as Children utilises Protection a great deal over its charges. - ---I'd agree here too. I personally think that she and Litheroy would be at great odds with each other, seeing as she Protects and Litheroy doesnt care so much so long as the Truth is there for all to See. But then again, Revelations could be a strong word to support Protection, all depending in how you play it. - ---Zadkiel gets along well with everyone except David, Jean, and Jordi because of their treatment of humanity. You could easily toss Litheroy in the mix because he is too distant from them. I use Litheroy as a very brash uncaring angel, borderline disonant. - ---Interesting. Litheroy and Dominic would be on good terms, but Marc might have a problem with him once in a while if he shows too much stuff too soon, same as Jean would consider Litheroy dangerous to Humanity as a whole. - ---Dangerous to his timetable, that's for sure. But thats just my take on it. - ---Thanks! Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* - ---Oooo, I like this quote! Lots. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 12:29:20 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Lucifer's Word >I've just been pondering, and I think that a word just as appropriate >for Lucifer, and perhaps one with just as much (or maybe more?) power >would be that of Life. [Watch the MIME formatting, eh?] Lucifer is the first and most successful Balseraph. He's so successful that he's convinced everyone and the Symphony that no one, except God, is more greater than he is. Which, of course, means it's true. Lucifer is the Lord of Lies. I can't get rid of the concept of Lucifer as an addict saying, "I can handle it." Fortunately for Him, a Bal's personal symphony doesn't dissolve when he picks up a little dissonance. And does the big L pick up dissonance? There are plenty of demons who will believe anything Lucifer tells them just because he is Lucifer. For the more skeptical he has all the Essence he wants to boost rolls. Help a man in trouble and he will remember you when he's in trouble again. - -James Feibleman- BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 12:29:23 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Balseraph resonance >Accordingly, as near as I can tell, to detect that a Balseraph is >lying, you need to make *both* the resistance roll _and_ a Detect Lies roll. Unless the Character *knows* the truth. Then it's only a resistance roll. "I don't believe that God plays dice with the universe." -Albert Einstein Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 12:29:24 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Those Pesky Balseraphs of Fate... >>1) Can a Balseraph buy this Attunement more than once? >No. And remember GMs, it MUST be bought at character creation. Don't let 'em buffalo you. I also have an observation about the Bal of Fate description. Only Resonances of Choirs are mentioned, not Attunements of specific Superiors. As I read it, Bal of Fate would not be able to have a Bright Lilim's resonance for Sensing Needs & Geasing, since Brights are not really an Angelic Choir. (The list of Bright attunements in Rev.4 are Attunements, not Resonances.) Also, Bals are still demons. They should not be able to resonate through recorded media (photos, etc.) the way angels can. Whee! I'm a Rules Lawyer! Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 12:29:24 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> little query > So how did Wrenchnail get a Geas to Furfur in Night Music? Had a Lilim, or Lilith herself, broker it. Furfur owes the Princess of Freedom big time because she found a certain Song for him. (Ain't telling which Song 'cause it's a spoiler.) "One man's angst is another man's pathos." -Pete Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:57:38 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations >---Eh, I was around a LONG time ago, but left not long after the line was >put on hiatus which was an odd bit of timing. But I'm back, because of my >love of the game. Yay for the love of the game. You've come in just after the flambe bbq season i think.. >Well, seeing as she is Michaels sheild maiden, i'd say she is strongly >supported by and insupport of him. In my games she is his 2nd incommand, >and liases with the Sword a great deal. >---Where's that reference at? I seem to have missed it, but I would >definately agree. I think its a throwaway line in her write up. I know it's also from mundane angel knowlege (IE davidsons book amongst others) I think her write up mentions she was one of his servitors as well. But dont quoteme on that, its been a while since i read that now. I might have to dig out the books.. >---Zadkiel gets along well with everyone except David, Jean, and Jordi >because of their treatment of humanity. You could easily toss Litheroy in >the mix because he is too distant from them. *Nods* Really, she should have a good deal of adoration for david, buit cos he treats the monkies so tough lovish, she sees that as a bad bad thing (tm). She should realise that jean is also protecting humanity by not giving them it all at once, if he were to do so that would be damaging indeed, and protection is about damage limitation is it not? >I use Litheroy as a very brash uncaring angel, borderline disonant. >---Interesting. As a seraph, he only sees things in black and white, or rather, True and Lie. Zaddy is a cherub yes? im not overly sure, but it sounds about right. She knows that sometimes you have to Lie inorder to protect someone. If the seraph comes charging along telling every one the Truth, then he's gonna cause a fair bit of damage that Humanity just cant handle. Zaddy would have to lay the smackdown on litheroy to protect humanity from him, even though he's a good guy. >---Dangerous to his timetable, that's for sure. Damn streight it is. >---Thanks! Not a problem. >*Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* >---Oooo, I like this quote! Lots. Feel free to use it and rip it and vandalise it to your hearts content :) Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2645 ********************************