in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 21 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2648 In this digest: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. RE: IN> Minor Superior Relations Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Lucifer's Word RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> Lucifer's Word RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> Lilith's Word (Was Lucy's Word) Re: IN> Another artifact Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> Lilith's Word (Was Lucy's Word) Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> Lucifer's Word IN> The Angel of Hate IN> Lucifer's Word IN> My Buddy Ethereal IN> Pride or Hubris RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Re: IN> My Buddy Ethereal Re: IN> Lucifer's Word RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... RE: IN> Minor Superior Relations IN> Ethereals and Words (Re: Lucifer's Word) RE: IN> Minor Superior Relations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:44:14 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. >--- Cameron McCurry wrote: >> >>There is probably an Angelic Word for "Hatred of >> things that deserve to be hated, because they are >> bad." > >Yeah, in the same way there is Divine and Infernal >Fire. Both just translate to 'Fire' in Corporeal, but >are clearly different celestially. Huzzah. :) > Wait, no, they don't translate differently. It is a very deliberate attack on Gabriel that Belial holds the same Word. It is not that it translates the same in English. It is, literally, the same Word. That is why Gabriel is as nuts as she is, in part. The distinction between Divine Fire and Diabolical Fire is an artificial one, used to refer to one or the other superior. But (and those who speak canon may slap me down for this, since i am not a writer of canon) they do hold the same word. It's a unique situation in the game (unless the Archangel of Death is canon) but that it the way it is. - -Daiv, tech writer in service to coffee (tonight, though, I serve Sushi... come on down to Shogun on Pacific Ave in Santa Cruz, it's My Beloved Ones birthday dinner). - -- God Of tech support drunken master haiku geek butterfly victim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 20:19:55 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. Er... I thought that they were two different Words- that Infernal Fire represented specifically the destructive potential of Fire (and more recently, Fire-like stuff), while Divine Fire represented the more spiritual nature of Fire (as inspiration, purification, etc). I don't think it's simply Belial's well known restrained nature that keeps him from trying to usurp the rest of Fire, nor is it Gabreil's startling clarity of vision that prevents her from reclaiming the destructive aspect- more likely, IMO, Lucy broke the Word when he granted it. A similiar thing should happen whenever opposite aligned Celestials share a Word. Divine and Infernal Cities, for example... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 23:52:30 -0600 From: "Arovyn" Subject: RE: IN> Minor Superior Relations - -----Original Message----- From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Elizabeth McCoy Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 1:15 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Minor Superior Relations At 7:12 AM -0700 5/19/02, Arovyn wrote: >I was wondering what the relations between all of the so-called-Minor >Superiors was to everyone else. I can make some inferences, but I'm still >curious. When a Minor Superior shows up in one of the Superiors books, it gets its Pro and Con relations to the Majors (and any other Minors in that book) detailed. O:> - ---True enough. So far, that's been Khalid, Alaemon, Fleurity, and Mammon. (Leaving Zadkiel, Litheroy, and Christopher to go. And maybe Magog and Furfur, depending.) - ---Well, as I recall canon, Furfur plays a bit of a big part in the later Revelations Cycle. Admittedly, he's a brand new Prince, but I don't think he's ever going to think of himself as a "minor" superior - irregardless of his numbers. Perhaps the bigger Princes will do will something about him, but I think he'll last. I think he's a keeper. I would love to see an extended write up on him - especially how he plans to cement his claim to Princedom and where he's set up shop. As to the others, especially my fave Zadkiel, are we going to see canon extended write-ups on them anytime soon? Till they show up in print, I don't think there's a canon answer. - ---Fair enough. I'll make up my own for now, but I think I'll avoid posting it. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:04:20 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word From: "Ryan M Roth" > > One is that, as the first Balseraph, he convinced himself he was capable > of granting Words, and somehow God/the Symphony supported his delusion. My own preferred theory is that Lucifer can grant Words due to having absorbed those Forces stripped from Metatron that didn't go into the creation of Kronos. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:05:15 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word From: "W S" > > 4. Lucifier gives Lilith a Word and Princedom in > exchange for helping the Rebels to escape. > 5. Lilith works to form Tethers so that the Hoarde can > get out of Hell. I believe the sequence of those two is the reverse of how you have them listed. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 03:11:26 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... >From: Jennifer Shih >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... >Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 12:44:25 -0700 (PDT) > > >--- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > LAURENCE: I want that Lilim. > > > > LILIM: I don't want to work for him! > > > > LAURENCE: Judgment, arrest this Lilim! She needs > > re-education! > >or... > >LAURENCE: I want that Lilim. > >LILIM: I don't want to _work_ for him, but I wouldn't >mind being in a position under him... > >LAURENCE: > >You know you want to put it in your campaign, right? > >Jennifer It gets worse. I made a Laurence/Uriel fic, with the Archangel of Purity being female. I included a covert 'discussion' in Oannes' grotto. I also made it a point of involvement as to WHY Uriel got the 'get back up here, young lady, we have to have a wee chat' treatment. Particularly since Uriel was rather full of...herself...among other things... when the trial took place. Blandine must've REALLY hated that, considering that Uriel just gave her ex a present in the form of alienated Ethereals, and then turned around and got busy... Kamika-Z, ready for that Essence burst for his rite... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 03:23:39 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word > >I'm prone to think his word would of been Truth. > >Plus now that I think about it this would explain how he gives out words, >leaving me with the idea he could still be searving truth in his own way >with the war. Being a >balseraph means truth is what he makes it. > > Actually, I subscribe to a different theory. Bear with me, as it may seem so crackpot as to make your brain ache. Not only is Lucifer's Word the Truth...but he is the ONLY Balseraph who is truly Perfect. Specifically, Lucifer does not resonate for purposes of making something untrue Truth... Instead, he resonates upon Symphonic Truths...and reveals a wholly different way of interpreting them. He never lied to his fellow Angels; he simply told them the Truth that was less appealing. He spoke of interpretations behind actions that could be taken in any number of ways. He did not tell Beleth that Blandine was jealous of her power; he told Beleth that he would not be surprised if Blandine was jealous, and was not as powerful as her lover. He didn't tell Kobal that God hated him and humanity. He told Kobal that there's something to be said for being given a Word that not only holds more power over the Angel who holds it than it holds over the Symphony, but that a bunch of overblown primates twist and corrupt to make him suffer. He didn't tell Baal that he was superior to Michael. He simply agreed when Baal presumed to say that he'd be able to stand against Michael, himself. The fact that Lucifer Does Not Lie makes him, if anything, more powerful than his nicknames would imply. Especially when you consider that the Lightbringer did not bring merely physical photonic light. Kamika-Z ...he brought Enlightenment... _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 06:54:14 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... > It gets worse. I made a Laurence/Uriel fic, with >the Archangel of Purity being female. I included a >covert 'discussion' in Oannes' grotto. [*snerk*] Are you going to post the fic to the ML? (If not, could you e-mail it to me? dragon48@ptd.net ) ~S.D. Ryujage ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Where the hell /is/ my angel, anyway?" "Disneyland." 'Quotes Out Of Context' - Technomancy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:33:04 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. > But the Virtues do hate, at least most of them. Yes. And it could be argued that Uriel's hatred of anything that didn't fit completely within the Divine Plan caused Hell to get a lot of allies. And I think that if the Malakim were more the embodiment of hatred than honor, then Novalis would not have any in her service. As a side note, I think it was a bit more than hatred that formed the Choir. It was anger and outrage at the fact that a group of angels would so willingly turn against God that it caused a shift in their nature. > They are honor incarnate, and honor sometimes requires an utter > rejection of the offensive. But they are also bound by their Oaths. They sometimes have to let an evil live if they have no choice. That choice can be the word of an Archangel or the situation at hand. If the Malakite allows hatred of evil and dishonor to overwhelm that, he's going to start targeting humans as well as demons. And Heaven would definitely react to a Malakite going overboard like that. > While I doubt Heaven would unimously agree, I also doubt that a number > of the Host would disagree either. The main problem is that Hatred as a general word is considered a Bad Thing (tm). Granting that to any angel other than a Malakite would be setting them up for a Fall and granting it to a Malakite is setting them up to be riddled with Discord. If the word was limited *strictly* to Divine Hatred, then I think the character would be more workable. Otherwise, he's drawing power from the hatred that is directed at Heaven from Hell and all of the other abuses of that Word. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 04:38:53 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. [snip- hatred and honor] I wasn't trying to dispute that the Malakim put honor before hatred. Just that they are pretty damn hate-filled towards the damned as they come. > The main problem is that Hatred as a general > word is considered a > Bad Thing (tm). Granting that to any angel other > than a Malakite would > be setting them up for a Fall and granting it to a > Malakite is setting > them up to be riddled with Discord. As opposed to say, the Angel of Teenage Suicides. > If the word was limited *strictly* to Divine Hatred, > then I think the > character would be more workable. Otherwise, he's > drawing power from > the hatred that is directed at Heaven from Hell and > all of the other > abuses of that Word. Which would almost certainly be the case, as some Habbalite of Factions (or possibly Lust...) would probally have gotten the Demon of Hate by now. But that's not nearly so interesting to write up :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:12:56 +0100 From: DAMIEN MCGURRELL Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word This leads to the posibility that Lucifer is still an Archangel serving truth. Or even headache of all headaches just a facet of God need to run the Symphony allowing a least some choice. To much meta-physics Damien sleepy now philosophy exam tough on the brain. Yours, Damien http://www.sleepinggod.dot.nu " It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them! " --Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:07:43 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. W S wrote: > Properly channeled hatred can be a > powerful tool for good, just as properly channeling > anger or grief can. Hatred can motivate people to do things that happen to be good. Theoretically so can lust or greed or any other negative emotion. But hatred itself is never a "good" motivation. > Now, granted, Novalis would probally disagree- but she > also would have objected to an Angel of Divine Wrath > or Righteous Vengence. Not the same category. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:17:09 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. > As opposed to say, the Angel of Teenage Suicides. You mean the Angel of Teenage Death? Druiel's original focus was on teaching teenagers about how precious life is and ended up being more concerned with killing them. In my own campaign setting, Christopher's angels would have been pushing Laurence's out of the way to Soul Kill him. > Which would almost certainly be the case, as some Habbalite of > Factions (or possibly Lust...) would probally have gotten the Demon of > Hate by now. But > that's not nearly so interesting to write up :) Perhaps not, but I still feel that Hatred is not something that Heaven wants as a weapon on its side because of the potential for abuse. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:27:27 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. - --- Cameron McCurry wrote: > > As opposed to say, the Angel of Teenage Suicides. > > You mean the Angel of Teenage Death? Druiel's > original focus was on > teaching teenagers about how precious life is and > ended up being more > concerned with killing them. In my own campaign > setting, Christopher's > angels would have been pushing Laurence's out of the > way to Soul Kill > him. *blinkblink* Er... am I misremembering, or did Druiel undergo a Word change when I wasn't looking? But, that's a minor tanget-y thing. > Perhaps not, but I still feel that Hatred is not > something that > Heaven wants as a weapon on its side because of the > potential for abuse. Not all of the Host, certainly. But some (Michael, Uriel, Janus, etcetc) would want whatever weapons they had and were effective. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:30:55 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Word (Was Lucy's Word) - --- Prodigal wrote: > From: "W S" > > > > 4. Lucifier gives Lilith a Word and Princedom in > > exchange for helping the Rebels to escape. > > 5. Lilith works to form Tethers so that the Hoarde > can > > get out of Hell. > > I believe the sequence of those two is the reverse > of how you have them > listed. Then why did Lilith form the Tethers in the first place, without any guarentee of reward (regardless of what Lucy said); I doubt she could Geas yet, and don't think as shrewd a barginer as Lilith would act without an advance payment from Lucifier. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:45:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Another artifact - --- Ryan M Roth wrote: > HOLY EARPLUGS OF IGNORANCE Heh. What's next Ryan, Cruel Shoes? 0;> ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:50:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word - --- Ryan M Roth wrote: > Myself, I've always like the word of Darkness for > Lucifer Me, too, and for the same reasons that you state. > Another is that several of the first born angels (Yves, > Micheal, Eli, > Uriel, Lucifer) always had the ability to grant Words, > and still do, and > just don't advertise it (Micheal's saving his secret > word-bound for a special occasion). This is an attractive option, but... > Another possibility ( I rather like this one ) is that > Lucifer CAN'T grant > words at all. Every time a demon gets a word from > Lucifer, Lucifer (in > his own way) is actually requesting that God grant the > word, like the > Seraphim Council does. [snip] Lucifer asked God for his > word after the Fall, and > has to ask God for every word he grants. How galling, > then, would it be > for Lucifer to always have to ask for God's help in > waging war on Heaven? > How disasterous would it be for him if the other demons > found out where > their Words were coming from? How upseting would it be > to Heaven if the truth came out? ...this is way better. I like the way you think. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:56:32 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Word (Was Lucy's Word) - ---- Original Message ---- From: "W S" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 7:30 AM Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Word (Was Lucy's Word) > Then why did Lilith form the Tethers in the first > place, without any guarentee of reward (regardless of > what Lucy said); [snip] Remember that Lilith has *issues* with God, and that this was (relatively speaking) soon after Eden. The chance to royally screw over His plans for the Earth and set free those whom he'd exiled would by itself be a very pleasant coup for her. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 05:56:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word - --- W S wrote: > Er... Worded Ethereals? In Cannon? Thor is the God of Thunder (or will be, if he ever recovers). Mars was the God of War. Osiris was the God of Death. These are far from the only examples. And canon clearly states that, before the Purity Crusade, the greatest Ethereals had power comparable to that of Archangels including the ability to grant Attunements and create new Ethereals. > Also, I just thought of something... There seems to > be a continuity problem. Yes, all that you mention is a continuity problem -- created by Balprop. Remember, we only have the words of Lucifer and Lilith on what happened. Neither of those beings feels a particular compulsion to be forthcoming with information. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 06:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. - --- W S wrote: > Er... I thought that they were two different Words- > that Infernal Fire represented specifically the > destructive potential of Fire (and more recently, > Fire-like stuff), while Divine Fire represented the > more spiritual nature of Fire (as inspiration, > purification, etc). If I read canon correctly, Gabriel and Belial do in fact share the same Word (hence Gabriel's madness). The difference is that Belial chooses to emphasize different aspects of it than Gabriel does. In doing so, he has influenced the way that Gabriel expresses her Word; she now does less inspiring and more punishing. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:16:49 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word Michael Walton wrote: > Thor is the God of Thunder (or will be, if he ever > recovers). Mars was the God of War. Osiris was the God of > Death. These are far from the only examples. And canon > clearly states that, before the Purity Crusade, the > greatest Ethereals had power comparable to that of > Archangels including the ability to grant Attunements and > create new Ethereals. "God of Thunder," etc., is a title, not a Word. The EPG is in playtest now, and there are no "Worded" ethereals. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:35:23 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> The Angel of Hate >See also: Dante's treatment of the damned in the >Inferno. If you check carefully you will find that all the people suffering in Hell are people whom Dante himself hated, and those in Heaven were those he liked. If Dante were published today it would be on one of the more depraved internet sites AND he would probably be thrown in jail for making terroristic threats. Dante was a mean, bitter man. (IMNSHO) "Dissent is not sacred; the right of dissent is." -Thurman Arnold BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:35:21 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Lucifer's Word OH NO, God wants to teach him a lesson! Lucifer, Balseraph of Humanity. Or Lucifer, Balseraph of the Fallen. What I consider interesting is that Lucifer can grant a Word that is already being used by Heaven. Fire for instance. Or Does Lucy need a word? Giving him one will reduce the general level of doubt and uncertainty. Yours in Fear and Loathing, BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:35:23 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> My Buddy Ethereal >They'd have all the obsession of a cherub, but without any >superior/greater purpose to temper the obsession, beyond >perhaps a need for personal survival. Perhaps this explains the recent rise in Stalking crimes - poorly imagined Ethereal Lovers. An overwhelming desire at 14 finally reaches fruition during college... Creepy. Or even creepier, it comes to visit your daughter. Reminds me of Peter Pan. It also reminds me of a movie I saw on the Disney Channel about an Imaginary Friend who was sent away too soon turning into a Boogie Man. "One man's angst is another man's pathos." -Pete Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:35:22 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Pride or Hubris > "We have an accusation of Pride in quadrant fifteen A! Get me an >Seraph Lawyer and an Elohite Psychologist, STAT! By God, where's >my legal assistant backup?" Talking about Pride reminded me of something. Sherlock Holmes once said, "To underrate yourself is as much a departure from the truth as to overrate yourself." If people need help they need to know where to go for that help. If you are the greatest brain surgeon in the world and someone dies because you sent them to the second greatest, their death is your fault. Pride in accomplishments is actually a good thing, but one must walk between the sins of Hubris (Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance.) and False Modesty. Rereading Michael's write up in INCR and R5 it would seem that Michael is somewhat justified in his opinion a Dominic. "Hey! You're mean!" -Squeakers, Reliever of Flowers "Yeah. But I'm cute, so I get away with it." -MacNorma (Free Lilim) Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:47:04 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... > > > It gets worse. I made a Laurence/Uriel fic, with > >the Archangel of Purity being female. I included a > >covert 'discussion' in Oannes' grotto. > >[*snerk*] > >Are you going to post the fic to the ML? (If not, could you e-mail it to >me? dragon48@ptd.net ) I can safely say there's no way in Hell (any principality) I'd post it to the list, for the ArchBeth might smite me for such acts of Really Wrong Hurting Fun...but if you give me a bit to dig it up from one of my CDs, I'll fling it your way. And probably Moe's way, too. I've heard tell that such might be just the thing for brain breaking... Kamika-Z, who suddenly realizes he'll also need a confirmation of 18+ness... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:51:34 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> The Angel of Hate. > > But the Virtues do hate, at least most of them. > > Yes. And it could be argued that Uriel's hatred of anything that >didn't fit completely within the Divine Plan caused Hell to get a lot >of allies. And I think that if the Malakim were more the embodiment of >hatred than honor, then Novalis would not have any in her service. > Let's see, how does that quote go... Kamika-Z ...if you can hate, but not give way to hatred... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:31:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> My Buddy Ethereal I would make the Imaginary Friend a variant of the Dream Element. It's just a more powerful version that has enough juice to visit the Corporeal (either in a Vessel or via a Song of Projection). Other than that, I think that such a spirit is a perfectly reasonable addition to the game world. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:32:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer's Word - --- David Edelstein wrote: > "God of Thunder," etc., is a title, not a Word. > > The EPG is in playtest now, and there are no "Worded" > ethereals. Ah, so this is clarified, then. Thanks. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:43:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Laurence and the Brights... At 9:42 PM -0500 5/20/02, Gregg Forge wrote: >>Oh, sure. And, well, if people don't _like_ my answer, they can change it. >>And, as any author should be, I must remain aware of the possibilities of >>other interpretations... >> > I shall remember that, in times where I may need to quote >it heavily in defense of something that is unrepenitantly >Too Cool for Canon. (^_^) Just label it "Kick the Canon" and go with it. O:> >>LAURENCE: Judgment, arrest this Lilim! She needs re-education! >> > This is close to what I'm thinking; though, not so much >re-education as 'deprogramming'...but, in this case, he >honestly thinks it for the best that such occur. Not >delusion, just that severe a devotion to the cause. Yup. That's a perfectly fine tack to take on it. But, well, so is... >>LAURENCE: Drat that BalProp anyway! Motion that she be placed >>with, er, Michael. > > Curse you and your ability to turn a humble chunk of >tomatoe into an instrument of pain and suffering on a >sinusoid level! (X_x) And the hot sauce doesn't feel >too keen, either... Soooowwwwwwy. O:> Do I get the laugh point? >> >> >> > That strikes me as being how the DEFAULT contrast >setting might more accurately reflect the tone of things, >with the occasional (depending on whence the Lilim >redeemed, and who by) undercurrent of the prior example. Yup. Lessee, for the Brightest side... LAURENCE: Ah! Another Daughter of Freedom has seen beyond the lies of her creation! Wonderful! Now, you've probably heard a lot of horrible things about Heaven, but I'm sure you'll find they're all wrong. When you're a bit more settled, I'd like to offer you the opportunity to assist, in my service, to wipe the scourge of Hell off the corporeal realm. A couple of my Servitors -- Elohite and Mercurian -- will drop by later, and you can talk with them and see if you'd be suited to the jobs. They can arrange to show you around, and you can always have a trial period. Welcome to Heaven! MICHAEL: *yawn* . o O (Does he have to do that _every_ time??) > >>>it could be taken as an affront if he were to be outright refused. >> >>In a brighter campaign: >>Seraph and Elohite resonance should tell him things [...] > > Well, yeah, but it would be a learning experience, and all >good troops will need training in order to become effective >soldiers in the War against the Infernals! Or so the uber- >trooper in the back of his head goes, thinking he could >work around the misery, potential for dissonance, and prevent >that in-excess-off 9.8 M/s droppping... Maybe. Of he could try to get her assigned to an Archangel who would periodically give orders that boil down to, "Drop what you're doing, head for the Sword Tether, and give them a hand with a little matter. They'll brief you when you get there." As opposed to, say, Novalis. Since Novalis, when asked to contribute someone to the cause, probably has a tendency to look around the Glade vaguely and say (in a very Kasumi or Belldandy voice) something like, "Oh, my, she was just here a moment ago. Let me find her and you can ask her yourself, hm? Now be a dear and stay right here a sec." >>In a darker campaign: >>"Judgment! Arrest this Lilim! She is insufficiently devoted to the causes >>of Heaven!" > > Which I also see happening a LOT, if some demon is Redeemed >by Eli, Novalis, or Janus... Heh heh heh. Well, if it's one of _Janus'_, first you have to catch her! >> >>[...] >> >> Good point, and one that I had underestimated; while the >> >>Seraphin Council is the oldest, wisest organization of >>Judgement, >> >>Wib, wub, didn't see this. >> >>Since when did you think the Seraphim Council was an extension of >>JUDGMENT? > > Given that the Seraphim Council is in charge of making the >vast majority of Judgements, decisions, and overall policy in >Heaven, I'd come to associate the Council as much with Dominic >out of Choir as purpose. Adding that Dominic's Celestial >Tribunal is adjacent to the Council Spires, that Dominic was >in charge of Michael's Trial, and that Dominic predates the >Fall, it seemed a rather logical conclusion to draw. Even if >other (Arch)angels sit upon the Council, of many and myriad >choirs, it's still called the Seraphim Council, and still a >powerful engine of Judgement. Er.... That's a very interesting set of assumptions to make. O:> The Tribunal is, well, the Supreme Court. The Council is the House/Senate. The Tribunal enforces that which is agreed upon in Council. Rather, er, the other way around, eh? >>The Council is, er, the Council -- all the Archangels and the oldest and >>wisest of the Seraphim and other Choirs. Dominic isn't running it. >> > Um...indeed! Well, that would explain volumes. As >mentioned, Dominic is among the Oldest Seraphim (not as old >as Michael, but then, other than Yves and the Lightbringer, In IN canon, Lucifer is Mike's kid brother. O:> (Which does, alas, rule out the address of "Eldest, Fairest, and Fallen -- Greeting and Defiance." Pity.) >what is?), and a rather prominantly powerful Archangel, Well, er, he does date back to the time of the _forming_ of the Council. He was elevated to Archangel then. (He wasn't, prior to that.) Then Marc and Novalis were elected to Archangelhood, so they've got just nearly as much seniority as he does. (See the GMG, pp. 92-94.) And, well, he wasn't even _Word-bound_ till after Janus and Oannes and Jordi were elevated. Not to mention Andre(a), Raphael, Jean, Beleth, and Blandine... Okay, he's older than Saminga. Sure, Dominic is in the Top Three to be the people doing the administrative "who gets to speak when" duties on the Council (Laurence (as Lord Commander), Dominic (as Judgment), and Marc ('cause, well, he's _Marc_) are probables)... But that doesn't mean more than he's the one who recognizes people to speak when necessary, or other administrative duties... >and >I've reason to believe that a rather hefty portion of >Judgement's Servitors are upon the Council. Um. Why? >Kamika-Z, more than willing to be corrected on that > horrifying little misconception... Er, yeah. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:49:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Minor Superior Relations At 11:52 PM -0600 5/20/02, Arovyn wrote: [Beth wrote:] >>So far, that's been Khalid, Alaemon, Fleurity, and Mammon. (Leaving >>Zadkiel, Litheroy, and Christopher to go. And maybe Magog and Furfur, >>depending.) >---Well, as I recall canon, Furfur plays a bit of a big part in the later >Revelations Cycle. Admittedly, he's a brand new Prince, but I don't think >he's ever going to think of himself as a "minor" superior What he thinks of himself and what he _is_ are two different things. He's young, he doesn't have all _that_ much history, and he's simply not as important in the Grand Scheme of Things. If he gets a writeup, it'll be between 10-15 pages; the same as any Minor Superior. (Fleurity didn't think he was minor either, and resented being put in a Demon Prince book, but I stuffed him in there anyway.) Khalid got more because his first writeup was kind of, er, wonky, what with him being dissonant-or-something out the wazoo. Took a bit to explain him. >Princedom and where he's set up shop. As to the others, especially my fave >Zadkiel, are we going to see canon extended write-ups on them anytime soon? The "soonness" depends, quite honestly, on how well the rest of the line -- especially the EPG -- sells. Distributors tend to order things in a line based on how well the book _before_ that one sold. If the EPG sells well, and continues to sell steadily enough, then I suspect Superiors books would be moved to a faster track. If it sells poorly, then there's going to be a longer wait. >>Till they show up in print, I don't think there's a canon answer. >---Fair enough. I'll make up my own for now, but I think I'll avoid posting >it. Probably wise, considering how many people read this. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:56:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Ethereals and Words (Re: Lucifer's Word) At 5:56 AM -0700 5/21/02, Michael Walton wrote: >--- W S wrote: >> Er... Worded Ethereals? In Cannon? > > Thor is the God of Thunder (or will be, if he ever >recovers). Mars was the God of War. Osiris was the God of >Death. These are far from the only examples. And canon >clearly states that, before the Purity Crusade, the >greatest Ethereals had power comparable to that of >Archangels including the ability to grant Attunements and >create new Ethereals. *cough* Words and "God of X" are different things, in quality if not raw power. See the EPG ( In Playtest Now! Pyramid, only $15 a year! ). O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:53:40 -0700 From: Arovyn Subject: RE: IN> Minor Superior Relations On Tue, 21 May 2002 13:49:22 -0400 Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >---Well, as I recall canon, Furfur plays a bit of a big part in the later Revelations Cycle. Admittedly, he's a brand new Prince, but I don't think he's ever going to think of himself as a "minor" superior What he thinks of himself and what he _is_ are two different things. He's young, he doesn't have all _that_ much history, and he's simply not as important in the Grand Scheme of Things. If he gets a writeup, it'll be between 10-15 pages; the same as any Minor Superior. (Fleurity didn't think he was minor either, and resented being put in a Demon Prince book, but I stuffed him in there anyway. - ---True. Very true. And it would also depend a lot on what happened/happens to Magog I would think. But Magog, if I'm not mistaken, is very much in CDaU. Khalid got more because his first writeup was kind of, er, wonky, what with him being dissonant-or-something out the wazoo. Took a bit to explain him. - ---Ah yes. I remember all to well the absolute fit I pitched when that book came out about that very issue. *Looks down* Sorry about that one. I just have an odd take on "minor" Superiors. I just can't see Heaven or Hell looking on them as "Minor." Younger, Useful, or Tools would be a moniker I could see being used. Personally, I prefer the term, "Younger Superiors," of which Laurence is the youngest on Heaven's side, and Furfur on Hell's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if, in canon, Laurence is the youngest Archangel, then all of the "minor" Superiors (Archangel-wise anyway) are older than him and more experienced. They're only limited by the scope of their Word. Odd that... Children are everywhere, but Swords are not (even if you consider the scope Laurence puts on his Word) as are police and military personnel (thinking of Protection). He may be the Commander of the Armies of God, and gets a *ahem* lot of advisement, it still rubs me wrong about the way "Minor" Superiors are mentioned and treated. I'm well aware that the "minors" are add-ons designed to be added and removed at the whim of the GM, but I could just as easily remove Novalis or anyone else just as easily. Maybe it's just me, but they seem to the short end of the stick. >Princedom and where he's set up shop. As to the others, especially my fave Zadkiel, are we going to see canon extended write-ups on them anytime soon? The "soonness" depends, quite honestly, on how well the rest of the line -- especially the EPG -- sells. Distributors tend to order things in a line based on how well the book _before_ that one sold. If the EPG sells well, and continues to sell steadily enough, then I suspect Superiors books would be moved to a faster track. If it sells poorly, then there's going to be a longer wait. - ---*sigh* I kinda figured. I know that I'll own the EPG either way, though. But speaking of setting up shop, is there a canon answer as to where Furfur set up in Hell? I suspect Shal-Mari, but there seems to be enough room in Abaddon or Perdition, but a great site for his Word would be Tartarus... If he could survive the creations running around in there. >>Till they show up in print, I don't think there's a canon answer. >---Fair enough. I'll make up my own for now, but I think I'll avoid posting >it. Probably wise, considering how many people read this. O:> - ---*chuckle* I'll be interested to see how close my ideas come to yours. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2648 ********************************