in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 13 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2672 In this digest: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace Re: IN> Yet more Undead IN> Dead Prince #2: Mariel (Version 2.0) Re: Techinal Difficulties ( WAS: Re: IN> A new Minor Choir (Part 1 of 2)) Re: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Stones of David IN>RE: Techinal Difficulties (But about IN too) RE: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Dead Prince #1: Makatiel IN> Technical Difficulties RE: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace IN> Shamanism PT2 Re: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Shamans PT1 RE: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Stones of David RE: IN> Stones of David RE: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace RE: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN>RE: Techinal Difficulties RE: IN> Stones of David ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:17:46 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace A rough idea; any comments welcome. Please note that I don't know much about the details of 'vitanda', only the general description, so more information (or mention that I'm *way* off) also welcome. ^_^;; ~S.D. Ryukage *** Dominic and Asmodeus are the only Superiors known to hand these out, though precisely who came up with them is unknown. (Eli denies every accusation.) These relics take the form of a chain-link necklace of some silvery metal, with a complicated (though tiny) clasp and a small charm. (The charm varies with each necklace; common ones reflect the wearer's Choir/Band and/or Word. The only constant is the sigil on the back, only visible to celestials: the angelic or demonic for 'Outcast'.) The clasp is impossible to undo, and the necklace will not break or bend, nor is it long enough to pull off over the wearer's head. These necklaces are based on the Catholic Church's old practice of 'vitanda'. In effect, this made anyone who associated with an excommunicate of the church an excommunicate themselves. A vitanda necklace does the same thing, only adapted for Celestials. Divine necklaces only affect angels, and infernal ones only affect demons. Any appropriately-aligned Celestials who are in the presence of the wearer for 24 hours (cumulatively) takes a note of 'phantom dissonance'. This dissonance will fade the next time the celestial regains Essence ... and the next phantom note will appear in 12 hours of time in the wearer's presence. Again, it fades the next time the celestial regains Essence ... but after six more hours in the wearer's presence, the real notes start appearing. Every six hours (total) in the wearer's presence after that will result in a new note of dissonance. These notes take half as long to 'work off' in a Tether or similar manner, but are still quite real. A vitanda necklace only works on the Corporeal and Ethereal planes (though it's rumored to be effective in Blandine's tower, Beleth's, and Gabriel's volcano...) Note that this does not say 'if the wearer isn't in Celestial form' - as long as the wearer is in the appropriate realm, it's effective. It's also immediately recognizable (if only by appropriately-aligned Celestials), and allows the wearer to be tracked by Judgment or the Game for as long as s/he has it on. Both sides are rumored to be working on versions that affect Celestials of the *opposing* alignment, but neither has succeeded - it seems the necklace 'echoes' off the wearer to determine who it affects. If a Celestial Falls or Redeems while wearing a vitanda necklace, the chain shatters and the charm vanishes ... to reappear in Heaven or Hell, in the hands of Judgment or the Game. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:18:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yet more Undead At 5:02 PM -0400 6/11/02, Eric Bertish wrote: >(This comes from my game, where Moe's Malakite keeps the Flowerchild's >crowns in Scabbardspace, and in one notable instance used a CoJ to threaten >a Hellsworn: "Do you see this? It will make you feel fluffy. Do you *want* >to feel fluffy? Then TALK!") I hope you know that the idea of MOE running a Malakite of the Sword makes my brain ache... >Yes, we're all insane. If you ever meet me in person, have me do my >"Thursday! Is! Thorsday!! on the WB!" routine. Are you going to be at the next Arisia? O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:29:00 -0400 From: EDG Subject: IN> Dead Prince #2: Mariel (Version 2.0) Edited to reflect an enmity with Raphael. - -EDG Mariel Djinn Princess of Oblivion "The world is a construct, built of the memory of Archangels who have long since forgotten its meaning and a God who no longer cares. Destroy the world, and let the Void reign supreme once more." Mariel was a bitter Princess. She had once been the Angel of Memory, and although the Word had been stripped, her affinity for it had not - even after she was granted the Word of Oblivion by Lucifer. So she remembered what it had been like before the Fall - remembered being an angel - remembered Heaven. She knew what the Fall had cost, what her devotion to Lucifer had brought her, and that Raphael, her old master and friend, was still in Heaven, righteous and pure Elohite that she was. Mariel knew and remembered all of this, and hated Heaven for it. Hated Raphael for it. Even though she was a Djinn, and could not hate, she hated Raphael for remaining what Mariel herself had once been - a pure and shining angel - and for having what she could not have - the cool touch of Heaven, the righteousness that came of being an Archangel, the power that came of being the Archangel of Knowledge. But what is Knowledge, if there is no Memory? Yet somehow, Raphael had survived without Mariel, was still surviving when Mariel was freed six thousand years after the Rebellion, and didn't even seem to have noticed the absence of the Angel of Memory. Mariel was a bitter Princess. Dissonance Mariel was not foolish, however. She did not forbid her servitors creation, but compelled them to destroy more than they had created. Any act of creation had to be followed, within 24 hours, with an act of destruction equal to or greater than the creation. This could be physical destruction, mental destruction (erasing memories, for example), or emotional destruction (dissolving an angel's Role, for instance), but it had to take place within a day or dissonance would result. Band Attunements Balseraphs: Mariel's Liars brought the Void to individual objects by removing them from the normal flow of the Symphony. Any object affected by this attunement could not be perceived by the general public: for anyone to notice it, they first had to make a Perception roll to notice that something was out of place, and then a Will roll to penetrate the illusion. These rolls were at +2 if the object physically touched the person attempting to perceive it. The illusion lasted for a number of days equal to the Balseraph's Celestial Forces, and cost 3 Essence to activate. This attunement could also be used on living creatures; all effects were as listed above, but the duration was measured in hours, and the cost was 5 Essence. The Balseraph could also affect himself, but the cost was 5 Essence, and the duration was measured in minutes. Djinn (restricted): Djinn of Oblivion used their resonance to bring death to the minds of their victims. Anyone to whom one of these Djinn was attuned had to make a Will roll every night at dusk to avoid following their murderous inclinations. For an additional 2 Essence at the time of attunement, the Djinn could cause suicidal tendencies; these functioned the same way as the murderous tendencies, above, but the Will roll was at - -2. A successful murder coerced in this fashion caused no disturbance if the victim of the attunement was mortal; suicide caused disturbance as though the Djinn had killed the victim, but caused no dissonance to the Djinn for harming his attuned. Calabim (restricted): These Destroyers were potent forces of the Void. They could use their resonance to inflict Mind Hits (instead of Body Hits) on the corporeal plane, and added their Corporeal Forces to the target number *or* the check digit of any attempt to damage a nonliving information source. Habbalah (restricted): Habbalah of Oblivion could create auras of fear around sources of information, living or nonliving. These auras cost 1 Essence and required a successful resonance roll to activate; the duration of the aura was determined by the check digit of the resonance roll (see the "time required" section of the Lilim resonance; a check digit of 7+ created a permanent aura). Anyone approaching the information source had to make a Will roll, at a penalty of the Habbalite's Ethereal Forces, in order to avoid fleeing in terror. Lilim: To a Lilim serving Mariel, it was as though the entire Symphony had a Need: to stop being played, to be still and silent, to rest for a while. This was a favor they could grant, at least in parts: by spending Essence, a Lilim of Oblivion could generate a sphere of non-influence around her, where her own personal reality pushed back the bounds of God's Symphony. In a sphere with a radius equal to one yard for each Essence spent, no disturbance would be heard for damage inflicted - but no Songs could be sung, no other supernatural powers could be used, celestials could not leave their vessels and no celestials in their native form could enter. This sphere moved with the Lilim, and was visible - very faintly - as a field of intangible, impossibly small, glinting green crystals hovering in the air around the Lilim. Shedim (restricted): A Shedite of Oblivion had the option of corrupting its host by removing bits of the host's memory. Instead of forcing the host into depravity, the Shedite could remove the memory of one event from its host's mind, erasing it entirely from his thoughts. This did, however, require the usual Contest of Wills in order to succeed. Shedim of Oblivion left total amnesiacs in their wake, people unable to function in society because they'd lost the memory even of how to walk and talk. Impudites (restricted): An Impudite serving Mariel dealt damage as he drained Essence: 1 Hit per Essence taken, depending on which realm he was in (Body Hits on Earth, Mind Hits in the Marches, Soul Hits in Hell). It was a subtle destruction - 1 Hit a day for as many days as it took - and while this could do enough damage to kill a human (although the hits were curable, by normal and supernatural means) or to inflict Discord, this attunement did not allow the Impudite to strip a Force from an affected soul or spirit. Servitor Attunements Chill: This attunement reflected Mariel's connection with the Void, and anyone using it could inflict the uncaring cold of oblivion upon his victims. The demon with this attunement had command over the temperature in the area, and could lower it by 20 degrees (Fahrenheit) or a fraction thereof for every Essence spent on the attunement, in a radius equal to his total Forces in yards. This attunement could also be focused: a single, cubic-yard area within that radius could be dropped by 40 degrees Fahrenheit (or a fraction thereof) for every Essence spent. Although this typically snuffed candles, put out fires, and chilled ovens, it is rumored that an especially powerful servitor of Oblivion actually froze a flame by using enough Essence on this attunement, and that the icy fire (now a Relic containing the Songs of Ice) sits in Belial's stateroom as a trophy. (Nobody who's actually seen Belial's stateroom will confirm or deny the rumor.) Expurgation: This attunement conferred the ability to erase written knowledge. For one Essence, the demon using this attunement could cause a number of written (or drawn) pages equal to his Celestial Forces to blank completely, their contents lost forever. This attunement could also affect the human memory: the cost was 3 Essence, but memories of a number of events equal to the demon's Celestial Forces were completely and irrevocably excised from the victim's thoughts. Distinctions Knight of Oblivion: A demon with this distinction could create a miniature black hole between his hands, drawing objects toward him. Knights of Oblivion could use the Corporeal Song of Attraction automatically (although the Essence cost still needed to be paid): the check digit of the Song was equal to the Knight's Celestial Forces. Anything touching the Knight because of the Song took Hits (in the appropriate realm) equal to the check digit of the Song every round that it remained in contact, until the Song lapsed. Captain of the Void: A Captain of the Void was the worst foe of knowledge and memory. He could use the Expurgation attunement without Essence cost, although he was still limited to (total Forces) uses per day on written documents, or (total Forces) uses per week on human memory. He could also choose to spend Essence on the attunement, which did *not* count against his uses with this Distinction. Baron of Undoing: These demons could unweave the very fabric of the Symphony around an object. For 7 Essence, they could remove an object or event from people's memories entirely; they could still perceive it, but had no memory of it whatsoever, including its workings, its function, and its place in the world. This could be done to a living creature as well, although the Essence cost was increased to 10. In either case, the duration of the erasure was a number of days equal to the Baron's Will; anyone could pierce the attunement and regain his memories of the object, event, or person with a successful Will roll, at a penalty of the Baron's Celestial Forces. Relations Allied: Gebbeleth, Saminga Associated: Baal, Belial, Beleth Neutral: All others except: Hostile: Asmodeus, Kronos Rites - - Destroy a person's memory of a cherished person, object, or event - - Remove all physical records on the corporeal plane of a person, object, or event (+2) Chance of Invocation: 0 One did not call the Void; one heeded the Void's call. Invocation Modifers +1: a suicide note +2: an unmarked grave +3: a corpse with no identifying marks +4: an amnesiac (Remnants count) +5: a relic of an extinct species +6: destroying an item or creature that is the last of its kind ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:43:13 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: Re: Techinal Difficulties ( WAS: Re: IN> A new Minor Choir (Part 1 of 2)) I'm oh so very happy that this isn't just happening to me. In addition to being confusing, I am getting the WORST cases of deja vu. Luckily they seem to have a root in reality. This time... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:13:53 -0700 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 "cassandra benner" eloquently and succinctly wrote: > However, there is a price. > Isn't there always a price? > The shaman gains the dissonance condition of jordi. Jordi's Dissonance Conditions: [1] "Jordi's angel cannot allow themselves to be swayed by concerns of human society, its rules, or its expectations of behavior." and [2] "They gain dissonance if they value human life above animal life. When they kill, it must be cleanly and without pain, as is the custom of Jordi." - IN Core rules p. 124 Quibble: A shaman burdened with Jordi's dissonance condition[1] can no longer perform his or her usual role in society. In the anthropological literature I've read shamans are the *keepers* and *purveyors* of human society, rules, and expectations. Jordi's dissonance condition would prevent shamans from teaching other humans the very thing that Jordi would like them to learn - respect and concern for animals. In addition, Jordi knows that the human animal requires society, rules, and expectations of behavior in order to survive. To require his shamans to act in a non-human fashion would likely get them killed and be counter to the idea that an animal should follow its nature. I would suggest the price be something like: Shamans lose access to all granted powers if they fail to promote an ecologically-balanced way of life for humans and animals or if they violate dissonance condition[2]. Vaughn - - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - "Well, Seth, self-proclaimed demon hunters are currently out of fashion in modern human society, their obvious benefits not withstanding. So, yes, I would request an updated role for this mission." - Emeth, Seraph of Creation to Seth, Elohite of the Sword ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:56:05 -0400 From: Amanda Kilgore Subject: Re: IN> Stones of David > *OBIN Content? Well... > > Do you really want me to go there? > > ;) Moe... you went there. You dragged us all with you. And still you groaned when the sick puns didst fly. Or aren't you ready to tell the list about your little campaign? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:01:25 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: IN>RE: Techinal Difficulties (But about IN too) - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Williby [mailto:parksideninja@hotmail.com] I'm oh so very happy that this isn't just happening to me. In addition to being confusing, I am getting the WORST cases of deja vu. Luckily they seem to have a root in reality. This time... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com Okay, so in "The Matrix" Deja Vu was caused by the program glitching when the machine intelligence wanted to change something. IN deja vu; caused by Vapu Tech misfiring on a scale grander than he could have wished? Or Jean's Tech-Nazis editing your brain from something you shouldn't have seen? DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 04:36:24 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 - -----Original Message----- From: cassandra benner [mailto:casiopia@hotmail.com] > A Shaman must be from a distinct genus bloodline, > IE Native American, Celtic, Pictish and so forth. Minor quibble - Why? I like the idea of shamans, especially since I dislike the idea of Jordi being nothing but an eco-terrorist which it seems he is often depicted as. But if Jordi wants to gain more human support for his word, then why limit those that could become his priests? I can certainly see reason to say the shaman needs to have a belief system that supports or follows one of those traditions, but couldn't a black person, raised in Ireland, become a Celtic shaman? DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:50:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dead Prince #1: Makatiel At 10:24 AM -0700 6/8/02, Michael Walton wrote: >--- EDG wrote: >> I still haven't settled on a pronunciation of his name: >> Mah-kah-teel or Mah-kah-tee-ehl? > > I believe that the latter is correct. 'Show I intend to pronounce it. (Seems about right -- Gabriel is "ree-el," after all...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:38:12 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Technical Difficulties I've always assumed it was a MajorDome glitch, I have perfect faith in my ISP. They have never failed (to bill) me. Still, I think the glitch is getting worse. It used to be one repeat every few digests, but lately it has been occuring much more frequently. Time for a virus sweep and a reinstall. (IMNSHO) Help a man in trouble and he will remember you when he's in trouble again. - -James Feibleman- BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:14:09 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace - -----Original Message----- From: S.D. [mailto:dragon48@mail.ptd.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:18 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace A rough idea; any comments welcome. Please note that I don't know much about the details of 'vitanda', only the general description, so more information (or mention that I'm *way* off) also welcome. ^_^;; ~S.D. Ryukage *** My question is why? Are servitors of Judgment/The Game supposed to trick Outcaste's into wearing these things? Do vitanda get handed out to angels/demons that are suspected of being close to tripping/going renegade? "Put this on or else! Refusal is dissonant! Trust the computer!" DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:42:13 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Shamanism PT2 With out further ado.... Shamanism in In Nomine Part 2 Why does Jordi have any truck with shamans? Well, humans are still animals, albeit the vast majority are arrogant, ignorant and petty little things. But they are still animals all the same and he is the lord of animals. It s only right that we should fear, respect and accept other animals, just the same as he does God and the other angels. So, now lets focus on the forms he takes when he appears in the dreams of his shamans, and how the shaman gains the totem powers. 000000000000000000000 The Lion and the Man, a tale. And he went to the water front, looking for his brother, but did not find him there, He asked the crocodile if he had seen his brother, and the crocodile said that he had not, nor would he eat such a scrawny thing, but the antelope in the plains may have seen him. So the went to the plains and asked the antelope is they had seen his brother, but they said all they had seen was the lions, perhaps they had seen the one he was looking for. So he went to the lions, and asked them if they had seen his brother, to which the leader said yes I have seen him, but I will only tell you where he dwells if you life with us for three years . Seeing no other solution, Born in Thunder said he would live with the pack for three years, and so he did. When the time came for the third year to end, Hunts with Pride called Born in Thunder to him, telling him that he would take to his brother. They left the plains, and came to the savannah, where Born in Thunder saw the two-legged creatures. Hunts with Pride, what are these things, and why are they afraid of us They are afraid because they do not respect us, they hunt us Yes, I was once like them, but now I understand Go to your brother, he is there in the village Whilst he is my brother, you are my pack, I owe allegiance to you and the pack alone And so the lion and the man walked back to the plains, from the savannah, and lived there. The hunters that came after were awed by the man living with the lions and troubled them no more, telling their sons of the lion and the man when they wanted to hunt lion. When the sons went to see the lion and the man, they saw only lions, one of which was old and weary. This they decided would be a good one to hunt, as it was weak. As they drew their bows, a black maned lion sprang from a rock, and pinned the hunters to the ground with its paws. It stayed there til night, keeping them pinned down, but they saw the lions, they saw the tranquillity and resourcefulness of the plains hunters, and they respected them. When dawn had come, the lion stood off of them, and took the form of a powerful young warrior. I am Hunts at Night, once I was called Born in Thunder, go from this place and never return. And so they fled, telling the tribes elders of the lion who became a man. One elder stood up and told the tale of how when he was young, he got lost in the caves, his brother was sent to look for him, but his brother never returned, and that he was called Born in Thunder. 0000000000000000000000000000000000 In the tale Jordi appeared as Hunts with Pride, the rest of the pack were hosts of jordi, Born in Thunder was tested and for three years lived as a lion, turning his back on the humans, and living the rest of his live with his chosen totem animals. Jordi will take whatever animal shape he desires to appear in front of the shaman. So how does he decide what totem animal to gift the powers of to the shaman to be? Well, resonating them with all of his available choir resonance s he figures out what animal they most connect with, then he takes in to account the physical qualities of the shaman, a small man does not become a hulking bear or buffalo after all. Then he takes the forces of the shaman and re arranges them slightly (allowing the player to move up to 1 force and the associated attributes around). Jordi may even add an additional 6th force to the shaman and fully make them Symphonically Aware. Then, once the forces are rearranged, he gives them their new name, making sure they understand that they are no longer just human anymore, and that they represent the animal in all human society forever more. Next time I ll discuss the powers and gifts associated with the totems of the three most common totems in modern day society, Wolf, Raven and Cat. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:48:07 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 >From: Unni Solaas >Er.. What about the inuits, samis, all the gatherer-hunter However you did >write "tend to", so...:) It would have been a long email if i had mentioned each and every one of the tribes, more so if i had named each tribe by its name as opposed to just labeling it like "armerican indian" or just "maoiri". Theres are a lot of genus's that as a whole make a race, but those races have a hell of a lot of tribes. The tend to was the covering of my butt for all those i know i missed out. ;) Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:12:49 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 > > However, there is a price. > > Isn't there always a price? > > The shaman gains the dissonance condition of jordi. > >Jordi's Dissonance Conditions: [1] "Jordi's angel cannot allow themselves >to >be swayed by concerns of human society, its rules, or its expectations of >behavior." and [2] "They gain dissonance if they value human life above >animal life. When they kill, it must be cleanly and without pain, as is the >custom of Jordi." - IN Core rules p. 124 *nods* Thats the one.. >Quibble: A shaman burdened with Jordi's dissonance condition[1] can no >longer perform his or her usual role in society. Shamans no longer perform a real human need, they are the bridge between this world and the other world. If the shaman once was a banker, and then gets called back to tribal lands, he must leave his job and begin life with the tribe as the conduit to the other world. >In the anthropological >literature I've read shamans are the *keepers* and *purveyors* of human >society, rules, and expectations. Each societies -shaman- had very differing tasks, i took the broad over all feel of the shaman, or in this case the Totemic Shaman. The shaman by becoming a shaman then is elevated in his tribe/clan to a position that even the cheifs of the tribe wil respect, he is above yet apart from them. He is not bound by thier laws, but must know thier laws and adjudicate when called to do so. In IN terms this will not really mess things about at all. You got a man, whose job it is is to look after the land and be one with the land, humans are part of the land, he was once human, but now he is apart from them. Folks seem to forget that humans are animals too.. >Jordi's dissonance condition would prevent >shamans from teaching other humans the very thing that Jordi would like >them >to learn - respect and concern for animals. They are still very able to do this task though, as it is what the shaman does (both in old times and in modern times). >In addition, Jordi knows that >the human animal requires society, rules, and expectations of behavior in >order to survive. And its one of the reasons he loathes it so.. Humanity has gotten to big for its boots, and has forced the eco system to change dramatically (especially in the last 1000 years, more so in the last 500 years). >To require his shamans to act in a non-human fashion would >likely get them killed and be counter to the idea that an animal should >follow its nature. The nature of the shaman is to be the bridge between the animal, and the human. This world and the other world. If the human cannot adapt to being a shaman it would not be a shaman at all. Jordi does test them. >I would suggest the price be something like: Shamans lose access to all >granted powers if they fail to promote an ecologically-balanced way of life >for humans and animals or if they violate dissonance condition[2]. Hmm, thats a gooden.. have that As Well as the primery one. ;) >Vaughn Many thanks for your thoughts on the matter. If you'd like to know more about the topic in general, i can chat to the shamans i know, and the people who follow that way of life, they would probably be happy to tell you where i got my inspiration from for this work. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:22:26 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 > > A Shaman must be from a distinct genus bloodline, > > IE Native American, Celtic, Pictish and so forth. > > >Minor quibble - Why? > >I like the idea of shamans, Thankyou. >But if Jordi wants to gain more human support for his word, then why limit >those that could become his priests? Its more of a human barrier really. Those who have strong bloodlines find that those blood lines call to them. frex: I have always had a soft spot for the celtic myths. I have red hair, and am built in what would be a good aproximation of the celts women of old. (compact but with underlying strength, from both the battles and the farming). Last year i decided to look in to the family tree, and for the bulk of it, many of my forebears were all from england, and those that were neither saxon nor norman came from ireland. Actually the bulk of my family are irish. I would take this as a way of the blood line calling to me. >I can certainly see reason to say the >shaman needs to have a belief system that supports or follows one of those >traditions, but couldn't a black person, raised in Ireland, become a Celtic >shaman? As a human, he would have the african blood line calling to him, which whilst having many of the similar totems, is very different to the celtic mythos of the shaman. The american indians (inc inuit & south american tribes) and the africans are really the steroetypical shamans that we as a world know of, few bother to think that a druid is a shaman, or that in the wastelands of russia there are still people who have shamans. Game wise, well, i persoanlly would not allow a non celtic blood lined perosn to become a celtic shaman, i would allow them to become an african shaman, who happens to be living in ireland. The irish (and celtic) mythos is one that calls specifically to those who have the blood in them. >DS1 Many thanks for the comments, it has made me think about one or two modificatiosn or erratas for when this all gets put on to a web page.. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:55:29 +0200 From: Mark Subject: Re: IN> Stones of David Rocky Horror Picture Show??? Andre of course! Mark the Habbalah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 15:54:31 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: RE: IN> Stones of David >"You've got the Stones of David" > >Malakim equivalent of saying "You've got big balls." which is to say a lot >of chutzpah. This might refer to the little David that slew Goliath, or it >might refer to an anatomical part of a certain superior, depending on what >kind'a "stones" the Malakim in question has. > Lilim saying of someone who is Big, Burly, and Unlikely to hit first; used to imply a lack of capability (and often an undertone of lack of imaginative usages for said 'stones'). Carries the unspoken warning of 'Don't bother satisfying any of his Needs'. Kamika-Z, who couldn't resist, even if he wanted to... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:57:19 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: RE: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace >My question is why? Are servitors of Judgment/The Game supposed to trick >Outcaste's into wearing these things? Do vitanda get handed out to >angels/demons that are suspected of being close to tripping/going renegade? >"Put this on or else! Refusal is dissonant! Trust the computer!" No. These are for angels/demons who were *sentenced* to banishment. The whole thing is supposed to be for those deemed too dangerous to other angels/demons but also too dangerous to simply Outcast/whatever-the-Infernal-is-'cause-Renegade-doesn't-work. It also kind of reflects my opinion of excommunication *and* deliberate Outcasting - what's the point when the net effect is to put the person beyond the Church/Heaven/Hell's reach permanently? The necklaces do that as strongly as possible, but at least they let Judgment/the Game *track* the wearer for future note. It also works very very well with BalDominic. };-) ~S.D. Ryukage ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:55:31 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 - -----Original Message----- From: cassandra benner [mailto:casiopia@hotmail.com] > > A Shaman must be from a distinct genus bloodline, > > IE Native American, Celtic, Pictish and so forth. > > >Minor quibble - Why? > >I like the idea of shamans, Thankyou. >But if Jordi wants to gain more human support for his word, then why limit >those that could become his priests? >I can certainly see reason to say the >shaman needs to have a belief system that supports or follows one of those >traditions, but couldn't a black person, raised in Ireland, become a Celtic >shaman? As a human, he would have the african blood line calling to him, which whilst having many of the similar totems, is very different to the celtic mythos of the shaman. The american indians (inc inuit & south american tribes) and the africans are really the steroetypical shamans that we as a world know of, few bother to think that a druid is a shaman, or that in the wastelands of russia there are still people who have shamans. Game wise, well, i persoanlly would not allow a non celtic blood lined perosn to become a celtic shaman, i would allow them to become an african shaman, who happens to be living in ireland. The irish (and celtic) mythos is one that calls specifically to those who have the blood in them. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* *** Not a lot of lions in Ireland, sounds like he'd have to move to Africa if he wanted to help Jordi, which sounds very counter productive. Blood calling to blood might induce someone to become an African shaman if they were black, but what if they were not at all called, interested in or had any desire to be an African shaman? What if the oak, thorn and ash called to them, as it did to the druids of old? Or are druids not Celtic shaman? Why would the culture of a different continent call to someone who is third or fourth generation Irish? Are a person's loyalties only decided by the color of their skin? Archangels are the ones who set the limits on who and how their servitors are limited. Jordi only allowing a person of a particular bloodline to be his servants seems to be a severe limitation. If the purpose behind having shaman in his organization is to encourage humanity to appreciate nature, he's limiting his ranks for a ridiculous prejudice. What about someone who really desires to help, but has a mixed bloodline? Do all people born in America have to be Amerindian shaman? Are they forbidden to be shaman at all because they have the poor genetic luck to have a father of Polish/Irish decent and a mother who is German/Jew? DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:37:22 +0200 (CEST) From: Unni Solaas Subject: Re: IN>RE: Techinal Difficulties It's happening again....:( Now I've got all the Technical Difficulties posts again, plus quite a few of the others from the same period. And I got one of Beth's posts about Moe's malakite for the *third* time! I say have the list daemon excorcised! - -- Stercus, stercus, stercus, moriturus sum! Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:43:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: RE: IN> Stones of David - --- "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" wrote: > > "You've got the Stones of David" > > This might refer to the little David > that slew Goliath, Being a refined individual who _NEVER_ goes for jokes that involve male sexual organs, I will of course refrain from pointing out that the above sentence can be taken in a completely ribald (dare I say, kinky?) way...* Moe *OBIN Content? Well... Do you really want me to go there? ;) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2672 ********************************