in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 13 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2673 In this digest: Re: IN> Dead Prince #1: Makatiel IN> Superior Victory: Reliquarium IN> Mariel IN> Worded Angel of War IN> A new Minor Choir (Part 1 of 2) Re: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Confused about de Marches. Also Michael and Baal, but that's seperate. Re: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace RE: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Shamanism PT2 Re: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Stones of David RE: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Shamanism PT2 RE: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Shamanism PT2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:50:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dead Prince #1: Makatiel At 10:24 AM -0700 6/8/02, Michael Walton wrote: >--- EDG wrote: >> I still haven't settled on a pronunciation of his name: >> Mah-kah-teel or Mah-kah-tee-ehl? > > I believe that the latter is correct. 'Show I intend to pronounce it. (Seems about right -- Gabriel is "ree-el," after all...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:15:38 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Superior Victory: Reliquarium Christmas Bots Run Amok What you need is a Superior Level Calabite. Calabites have a bonus for destroying artifacts. Perhaps Belial can do something. Or Haagenti, "Troll Burgers, the meal that keeps on giving." Or maybe they'll all just go *pop* when they run out of free Essence. Or suddenly achieve sentience and start fighting each other for essence and the right to reproduce! Battle Bots ala Kobal, yeah! I've run out of things to say, BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:15:43 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Mariel >Expurgation: This attunement conferred the ability to erase written >knowledge. See Alaemon's Attunement, "Lucifer's Document Shredder" (GMS p23) "I still don't like this ship. I have a queer feeling about it." Chief Officer (of the Titanic) Henry Wilde, in a letter to his sister. BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:15:43 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Worded Angel of War > Does that mean that the Angel of Acting (or the Demon of >Overacting) gets double Essence from performing in a show >where his character is an actor? After all, he's acting >like he's acting... "You never fooled me! I was only, ACTING!" John Lovittz, SNL, "Master Thespian" Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:25:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: IN> A new Minor Choir (Part 1 of 2) This is my first stab at a new minor Choir; this is the rough, rough draft, so comments are welcome. Sorry if it's a little long, Beth. Ryan R. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nicolae entered the small room where the Mecurian was chained to a chair and shut the door behind him. The angel looked up when he entered the room, but said nothing. Nicolae still couldn't believe his luck. He had been working as an apprentice for his coven for a decade now, and still had not been given a chance by his masters to possess real power. All he had been given in return for his loyalty was hard work, insults and beatings. The last time Nicolae had asked his masters to initiate him into the cadre of Hellsworn, he had nearly died from the punishments they inflicted on him. And he had come crawling back -- when he was able to crawl. For the longest time, all Nicolae could do was take out his fustratation on defenseless animals and infants. Now, it would seem the Symphony itself had given him a chance for real power. The problem was, Nicolae wasn't sure how to use the angel he captured. It was dumb luck that he recognized the angel and realized that it was a Mecurian. It took more than a few tazer shots to take it down -- for a bit, Nicolae thought that it might not go down. But it did, and now it was chained up in his kitchen. And Nicolae wasn't sure how to proceed from here. He could hand it over to his masters and hope for a reward, but he knew that they would just take the angel and hand it over to their demonic masters, and take all the credit. He wanted to contact a demon himself, but he didn't have the skill to summon one. And there was always the chance that angel might have something or know something that he could use. Nicolae sat there, brooding, when the angel spoke to him. "Do you realize what you are doing is evil?" Nicolae sneered. The angel had been trying to talk him out of being evil ever since it woke up. "What do you mean, _angel_?" Nicolae spat out the last word. "That it's evil for me to want the power others have abused me with my whole life? That it's evil to be willing to do anything to achieve that power? That the fact that I will do whatever I want with you is evil? Please, spare me. I am going to take the power I deserve and I am going to use you to get it." "Then there is no way I can persuade you to give this up, and try to reclaim your soul before it is completely cast away?" "There are no such things as souls. Only power in this lifetime matters. Now be silent. I need to think." The angel sighed, and then turned his head to the nearby window, where the first rays of dawn were filtering in. Softly, the angel began to speak to himself. Nicolae looked up, frightened and angry. "What was that?" Nicolae ran over to the angel, and grabbed its face, forcing it to look at him. "You better not be trying to sing a Song, angel. Tell me what you said!" The angel looked him in the eye. "It was angelic. It means, 'I will suffer no evil to live when it's my choice.' " The chains exploded around the angel as he burst from the chair, hoisting Nicolae up by the throat and tossing him across the room. Before Nicolae had a chance to realize what happened, the angel was on him, picking him up and pressing him hard against the wall, which began to crack from the pressure. Stunned, Nicolae tried to deny what was happening through broken teeth. "You--You're a Mercurian. You aren't allowed to hurt me." "Wrong, buddy boy. Yesterday I was a Mercurian. Today I am a Malakite. And my third oath is 'I swear I am going to spend the rest of this morning kicking your ass.' " ************************************************************************ Once upon a time, there was a reliever who was about to fledge. It had done very well serving Heaven, and most that knew it were anticipating a very bright career. However, this reliever had a problem. It simply could not decide what choir it wished to belong to. Many days passed as it tried to decide, but it couldn't. It's despair grew, because it thought that the fact that it couldn't decide was a failure on its part. And then Janus found it crying. Janus asked the reliever what was the matter. "Well, Mister Janus." (The reliever had a habit of calling everyone Mister or Ma'am -- most found it endearing.) " I don't know who I want to be. I mean, there's the Seraphim, and they are so regal and majestic. And the Cherubium have such a great job. And Ofanim like yourself are so cool with all that speed and stuff. Elohim are so respected. Malakim get to kick demon butt. Kyriotates get to be everywhere at once. And Mercurians are so much fun. And then there's all the minor choirs -- too many to mention. How can I decide to be just one?" Janus thought for a moment, then said, "Well, why not be all of them?" Then, with the reliever's permission, the Archangel gathered the reliever up and made him into the first Grunothim, a minor choir whose resonance was for, well, resonances. Grunothim aka, the Jacks (as in 'Jack of all Trades') RESONANCE A Jack's resonance is for angelic resonances. Every day, at dawn, they take on a new, random angelic aspect. The aspect from the previous day is lost, and in it's place the angel acquires the ability to mimic another Choir's resonance for a day. The Jack also is contrained by that Choir's dissonance conditions. Upon assuming a new angelic aspect, the Jack will know instinctively what it's new resonance and dissonance conditions are, even if it's for a minor choir that the angel has never heard of. DISSONANCE The Grunothim acquire a new dissonance condition each day, identical to the condition of the angelic aspect they are duplicating. When resonanting as a Seraph, Jacks take dissonance from lying. When resonanting as an Elohite, they take dissonace from acting from emotionally. Once the angel aquires a new aspect, the former dissonance condition no longer holds. A Jack who was a Seraph yesterday but isn't today can lie at will without dissonance. MANNER AND APPEARANCE Grunothim tend to carry with them the 'always ready to help' attitude prevalent among relievers. They very sincerely want to help others as much as they can. However, their personalities are rather mercurical, colored by whatever choir they are emulating that day. For example, a Jack emulating a Seraph will have some tendancy to act as a Seraph would in any given situation. His personality would shift slightly the next day, when he is emulating an Ofanite. Celestially, Grunothim appear as brightly glowing relievers, who are surrounded by a translucent image/hologram of the choir that they are presently emulating. Typically, Jacks will pick up a lot of different skills over time -- they are generalists, not specialists. Rarely will any Jack study any skill or Song long enough to master it -- they prefer to know a little about everything rather than a lot about a few things. Jacks tend to prefer Attunements to Songs, since Attunements don't have to be studied in detail and practiced. MECHANICS At dawn every day when the angel gains his daily essence, roll 3D6, one at a time. The first two die results determine which table to use -- the third selects the choir. (The table design was set up so that equal weight is given to all major choirs). As this is not a standard roll, no Interventions are possible. When the result indicates 'Minor Choir', the GM selects the choir the Jack emulates (obviously, emulating a Grunothim is redundant and therefore impossible). As an example, at dawn, Frediel the Grunothim rolls a 3, a 5, and a 1 in that order. For the next day, he will emulate an Ofanite. At the next dawn, he rolls a 5, a 2 and a 6. He losses his Ofanite speed to take on the possession abilities of a Kyriotate. First Die (Table 1): 1-3 Use Table 2 4-6 Use Table 3 Second Die (Table 2): 1-3 Use Table 4 4-6 Use Table 5 (Table 3): 1-3 Use Table 6 4-6 Use Table 7 Third Die: ********************************************************** Table 4 Table 5 Table 6 Table 7 1-3 Seraph 1-3 Ofanite 1-3 Malakite 1-3 Mercurian 4-6 Cherub 4-6 Elohim 4-6 Kyriotate 4-6 Minor Choir Upon selecting the new Choir, the angel takes on that Choir's dissonance conditions. If the angel was in the middle of an action which would be dissonant to his new Choir, he stops by reflex before he gains dissonance. For example, if Frediel was in the middle of lying when dawn comes and decides he needs to be a Seraph today, he will immediately stop talking. He may then continue to speak, but risks dissonance for lies. A similar thing happens if a Jack is in the middle of acting emotionally when dawn turns him into an Elohite. Naturally, this effect can be quite embarassing, so Jacks try not to be doing anything really important when dawn comes around. SPECIAL NOTES on certain choirs: Cherubium: Jacks emulating Cherubs can form attunements. These attunements dissolve on their own when the Jack switches Choirs. If the Jack later emulates a Cherub again, he can reform the attunements as usual. If the Jack remains a Cherub for two days in a row, his attunements do not dissolve until the Jack is something other than a Cherub. Since the attunements typically only last a day, the Cherub-Jacks tend to use their resonance for short-term gains, like tracking missions (rather than security missions). Malakim: Jacks do not gain the Malakite immunity from Trauma nor their immunity to Falling. They only gain access to their resonance for honor. When a Jack emulates a Malakite, the third and fourth oaths he swears do not have to be the same every time, but the Jack must have at least four oaths, like any Malakite. If the MalaJack swears more than four oaths, they cease to be binding when the Jack switches choirs. True Malakim take a very dim view of this practice, as they believe a code of honor should be rigid and not s u b j e c t to random change. Other angels (like Micheal) note that the temporary nature of the oaths can be used to great effect. In any case, MalaJacks typically either pick the same oaths every time or choose oaths that are by nature of short-duration (ie, "I will spend all of today hunting demons of Lust"). Kyriotates: KyrioJacks can the Kyriotate ability to possess others, but not the ability to split themselves up. When a Jack first emulates a Kyriotate, his Vessel (if he was using one) fades into potentiality over the course of five minutes. The Jack has that much time to find a host to possess. If he doesn't, his Vessel fades and he takes Celestial form. He then has the normal amount of time to find a host before being ejected to Heaven. (If you are using the Eden Ban, he remains Celestial, making disturbances, until he can find a host). If a KyrioJack is in a host when dawn swtiches him to another choir, a random Vessel of his will materialize within twenty feet of the host and he will enter it without needing to roll. If he has no Vessel, the Jack assumes Celestial form when ejected. SIDEBAR: Most Jacks are very interested in learning the Kyriotate trick of multiplicity, since they think of themselves as having multiple natures. Most think that a Kyriotate Archangel would be able to fashion an attunement which would enable them to learn the trick of it, but so far Jordi hasn't seen a reason to. As a side effect, most Jacks will go far out of their way to help save animals and promote the word of Animals, hoping that someday Jordi will be pleased enough to reward them with multiplicy. While Jordi smiles upon their efforts, it hasn't been impressed enough yet to give them what they want. But that doesn't keep them from trying. Minor Choirs: Jacks can emulate any Choir of angel that ever existed, but only randomly. This includes every Minor Choir. It is possible for a Jack to emulate the resonance of a choir which no longer exists. Jacks also occassionally emulate the Grigori resonance as well. No Jack has ever managed to duplicate the Bright Lilim resonance though -- it would seem that the hand of Lilith is required for that particular trick, as always. One might suppose that a Jack could buy the resonance from her, but none so far are willing to pay the price. It is rumored that a Jack once emulated the resonance of a Minor Choir Lucifer created when he was still an Archangel -- the Jack died shortly afterward. Now emulating that particular choir is seen as an incredibly bad omen. {More to follow tomorrow) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:37:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 - --- cassandra benner wrote: > Since man was a cave creature it worshipped many things, Point of order here. In shamanistic cultures the spirits were respected, sometimes even feared, but they were not truly worshipped. A totem was a guide who gave valuable advice rather than an icon to be venerated. That's one of the many differences that Westerners have trouble understanding. Of course, IYC it may be different. > Jordi still accepts and likes the humans that truly > understand the planet > and the animals, he even gifts them. > Appearing to them in the guise of an animal that he finds > deep in the soul of the human. One of the PC's in the IN campaign that would someday like to run again [sigh] is a Kyrio of Animals who has a Roles as a totemic guardian. He spends part of his time on Earth initiating Humans into precisely the kind of relationship that you describe here. I wish that I could say that I thought of that, but it was all the player's doing; all I did was agree. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:40:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 - --- Unni Solaas wrote: > Er.. What about the inuits, samis, all the > gatherer-hunter peoples in Siberia/Russia, Borneo, etc.? Inuits are Native Americans. So were the Aztecs, Mayans and Toltecs. Native American is not limited to what is now the continental United States, it also encompasses South America and what is now Canada and Alaska. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:49:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Confused about de Marches. Also Michael and Baal, but that's seperate. - --- W S wrote: > I'm poor. I feel your pain. Diapers are expensive. > A) In the Marches, is there an ethereal and celestial > form? IIRC, Celestials in the Marches appear as their most recent Vessels. They can't take Celestial form there. > B) Can or can not those in the Marches enter > Dreamscapes? Can Dreamscapes be impacted in any way > by those in the Marches? Yes and yes, thought the capacity for either is limited without the Songs of Dreams or certain Attunements granted by Dreams or Nightmares. I don't have access to the Pyramid playtests, either (for the same reason that you don't), but I suspect that Ethereals have an edge here. > C) Can a celestial enter Heaven or Hell while Dreaming > on Earth? If she were to find an Ethereal-to-Celestial Tether, yes... but such things are extremely rare. > Michael is a Champion. He promotes the Great Warrior > ethos wherein a single solider can and will turn the > tide of a battle. [snip] > Baal is a General. He demands strict adherence to his > orders. [snip] > They seem to be about as different, Warrioring > style-wise, as possible. Not really. Michael is a champion, yes, but he is also a general. Baal is a general but he is also a champion. They differ mainly in which aspects of the Word they choose to emphasize. As to Baal's Word, the War encompasses not only the War between Heaven and Hell but the internal war between selflessness and selfishness fought in the soul of every individual Human. Every war atrocity committed by a mortal is a victory for Baal in that War. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:54:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Unni Solaas Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Michael Walton wrote: > Inuits are Native Americans. So were the Aztecs, Mayans > and Toltecs. Native American is not limited to what is now > the continental United States, it also encompasses South > America and what is now Canada and Alaska. I know. I've just never thought about inuits as indians. (Yes, over here in the Old World we still call all native americans who aren't inuits indians. This is probably Bad, but I don't care overly much about political correctness. Whitch reminds me that I should come up with another Song that combines choirism with sexism like the Song of Scolding did. Hmmm.... Maybe something for the Manly Malakite... This is all your fault, mr. Walton!:) - -- Stercus, stercus, stercus, moriturus sum! Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:54:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace I can't see Heaven using these; an Artifact that can cause innocent angels to Fall just for associating with an Outcast doesn't really strike me as serving Heaven's cause. I know, the point is to get them to go away before the real Dissonance shows up -- but there are reasons for not doing that. Especially if one serves an Archangel who uses Outcasts for covert ops. At the very least, these things would be another sticking point between Michael and Dominic. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:02:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 - --- "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" wrote: > But if Jordi wants to gain more human support for his > word, then why limit > those that could become his priests? I can certainly see > reason to say the > shaman needs to have a belief system that supports or > follows one of those > traditions, but couldn't a black person, raised in > Ireland, become a Celtic shaman? I see Cas's logic in this, so I don't agree with the spirit of it. I do think that it could've been worded better, though. Something along the lines of, "A Shaman must have a belief system that promotes both harmony with nature and the best qualities of human nature." This wouldn't necessarily exclude European cultures, but modern Western culture is definitely out. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:09:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Shamanism PT2 - --- cassandra benner wrote: > Jordi will take whatever animal shape he desires to > appear in front of the shaman. Makes sense. > So how does he decide what totem animal to gift the > powers of to the shaman to be? > Well, resonating them with all of his available choir > resonance s he figures > out what animal they most connect with, then he takes in > to account the > physical qualities of the shaman, a small man does not > become a hulking bear or buffalo after all. Why not? I would think that Jordi would be more concerned with how "big" someone is in spirit. I know plenty of big, beefy guys who are spiritual midgets. And at 5'6" and 165 lb. my own totemic affiliation is Tiger. > Next time I ll discuss the powers and gifts associated > with the totems of > the three most common totems in modern day society, Wolf, > Raven and Cat. Most common in whose society? There are no wolves in Africa or Polynesia and cats are not native to Australia. This needs to be a bit more inclusive, Cas. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:16:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 - --- cassandra benner wrote: > Shamans no longer perform a real human need This is simply not so. Shamans act as historians and teachers for their tribes. They have a vital role in the transmission of their respective cultures. > The shaman by becoming a shaman then is elevated in his > tribe/clan to a > position that even the cheifs of the tribe will respect, > he is above yet apart from them. Apart, yes. Above, no. > He is not bound by thier laws He most certainly is, and has some additional restrictions placed on him by the demands of his totem, to boot. > >In addition, Jordi knows that > >the human animal requires society, rules, and > expectations of behavior in > >order to survive. > > And its one of the reasons he loathes it so... Jordi's objection to Human society isn't that they have laws and conventions -- so do all social animals (look at the elaborate greeting rituals of wolves sometime). Jordi's problem with Human society is that Humans no longer operate by instinct. In fact, much of civilization (from Jordi's perspective) seems to be focused on circumventing instinct. That's what he objects to. > The nature of the shaman is to be the bridge between the > animal, and the human. No, the job of the shaman is to be the bridge between the material world and the spirit world. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:08:35 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Stones of David From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > > Being a refined individual who _NEVER_ goes for jokes > that involve male sexual organs, I will of course > refrain from pointing out that the above sentence can > be taken in a completely ribald (dare I say, kinky?) > way...* What, no Little Saminga jokes at *all*? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:00:51 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 >Not a lot of lions in Ireland, Noop, but there was once.. ;) >Blood calling to blood might induce someone to become an African shaman if >they were black, but what if they were not at all called, interested in or >had any desire to be an African shaman? Thats the thing, if they was not called to be so then they would not hbe a totemic shaman (as i am presenting here), they might well end up as a druid, or cthonic mage, all of which fit happiliy in to sorcery as we see it presented at the moment. Hmm, actually, i dont think druids are covered other than with a ritual or two... >What if the oak, thorn and ash >called to them, as it did to the druids of old? Or are druids not Celtic >shaman? Indeed, i did say that the duird was the version of the shaman for the celts. See above statement about sorcery. >Why would the culture of a different continent call to someone who >is third or fourth generation Irish? >From all the sites online about -traditional- irish craft, youd think that the americans invented it... Bearing inmind thatwhat we know and do these days is not really what it was like in the old days, even the order of bars ovates and druids say this. They happiliy admit that they do not at all represent what the druids once were. We only have very fragmentary evidence of what the various tribes and clans do. Much of it was written by the people they were opposed by as well, so it is with a strange respect/contempt, and the writting of it is very skewed. >Are a person's loyalties only decided by the color of their skin? Of all the pagans and occultists i know, i can not think of one black (or non white) person who follows the celtic paths, they fall on to what their race is perceived to do. However, the white man goes about basterising all the practices of other contries and twists them in to something else entirely. A Houngan and a Vodun (or voodoin if you wish to call them that) both utilize the same, or very similar loahs/spirits, yet the practices of them are vastly different. >Archangels are the ones who set the limits on who and how their servitors >are limited. Yup, exactly. Not as if every angel has access to every resonance is it... See what im getting at here? Jordi only allowing a person of a particular bloodline to be >his servants seems to be a severe limitation. Its not him limiting it, but the persons own beliefs. England as a countrie really hasnt had non white people in it for very long, it was only with the wars that there was an influx of african and caribean families, as well as the indian families. Whilst our culture has merged some what with theirs we still do view them with fear, restarint and suspicion. >If the purpose behind having >shaman in his organization is to encourage humanity to appreciate nature, >he's limiting his ranks for a ridiculous prejudice. *nods* Yup, its amazing he allows shamans to work for him at all isnt it. I mean, his angels are far superior to everything on the planet anyways, as are all the other angels.. And as we all know each and every angel DOES have access to other choir resoances.. No, really.. they do.. ;) >What about someone who really desires to help, but has a mixed bloodline? Hmm, lets look at liosianna for this answer, the mulattos (sp?) neither white, nor black nor spanish nor french. They still fit in to the current Xtian and vodoun sects happily. As they have no amountable american indian blood in them, i would (in my game) allow them to be shamans who follow the african totems. Or i'd let them be a Soldier of the Loah etherials. Letting some one be a shaman gives them an extra choice to play soemthing not represented inthe game. It only limits them if they think that a shaman is the steroe typical native indian or african. Thats the limit the player imposes, nto the games mechanics (which are coming eventually). >Do all people born in America have to be Amerindian shaman? IMG id say only an player who wants to be an american indian could be an american indian shaman. Irish people born in america could still play celtic shamans.. Are they >forbidden to be shaman at all because they have the poor genetic luck to >have a father of Polish/Irish decent and a mother who is German/Jew? The germanic player could still play a shamanic type character, but they would really tend towards the worship of a deity from the tuetonic mythos, and thus be an ethereal soldier. If they were to play a germanic/jewish person, i as a gm would get them to write the background of the character fully, and then tell me what has made them chose shamanism over god, and how ww2 affected the characters bloodline. As for a pole.irish, the celts were in that area.. The celtic mythos covers much of europe, if you study such writtings as the mabinogion, you'll realise that the stories correspond exactly to nordic, finnish, scottish, welsh, irish and in a number of cases, greek myths.. >DS1 Cheers for the comments. Remember folks, im just tossing out ideas here, you dont have to use them, its not at all cannon! Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:04:38 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 >From: Michael Walton > Inuits are Native Americans. So were the Aztecs, Mayans >and Toltecs. Native American is not limited to what is now >the continental United States, it also encompasses South >America and what is now Canada and Alaska. Indeed they were and are all native americans, but the middle american shamans work differently to how the southern american shamans do. Well, they dont really, but textually they do the same thing, have many similar totems, but what we know of american indian shamanism this day and age is a very different thing to what it once was. Im not fond of all this fluffy stuff, i like to look at the roots of it all. Appologies to Beth in advance, if this post is deemed OT, but it does directly answer a valid point made and is inreference to a post about the ON topic stuff. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:10:02 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Shamans PT1 >From: Michael Walton > > cassandra benner wrote: > > Since man was a cave creature it worshipped many things, > Point of order here. In shamanistic cultures the spirits >were respected, sometimes even feared, but they were not >truly worshipped. A totem was a guide who gave valuable >advice rather than an icon to be venerated. That's one of >the many differences that Westerners have trouble >understanding. Of course, IYC it may be different. Just as god was once used as a guide.. Just as god (and his priests) gave valuble advice and information.. But god did turn round and say worshoip me. Totemism is used inconjunction with the worship of the Great Earth Mother. All the animals live on the earth, and are part of her, the shamans were the conduits for this, the priests of the great earth mother if you will. The animals totem spirits could be likened to the angels.. But then that wanders in to ethereal worship.. The totemic shaman (as represented here) knows that there is an over arching power to the universe, and that the animals are the way for him to understand the power on a more personal level. > One of the PC's in the IN campaign that would someday >like to run again [sigh] is a Kyrio of Animals who has a >Roles as a totemic guardian. *nods* Ive had a player do the exact same thing in my game as well, and that was when i 1st started to play IN.. Cheers for feedback. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:12:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: Re: IN> Shamanism PT2 On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, cassandra benner wrote: > With out further ado.... > > Shamanism in In Nomine Part 2 > This is an interesting concept. But my question is: Why? Why bother creating an entirely new catergory of character/Sorceror (as you seem to be doing)? It makes more sense to me to simply call these guys/gals Jordi's Soldiers, Soldiers-in-Training, and/or Saints. Jordi can given them all the special Songs he feels like in order to duplicate any powers you had planned to describe for them. In addition, I don't really see Jordi restricting his favor on basis of geneology. "Yes, you truly understand animals, young human. You understand their place in the Cycle, and yours. You have spent your life promoting my Word and teaching others to do so as well. However, since you are French, I can't reward you. You should have been born Navajo -- think about that the next time you reincarnate." Now, Jordi might be more inclined to reward people from those cultures because of their history of respecting animals, but I don't Jordi will turn away someone who really exemplifies the behavior he wants all humans to follow. Especially since there are so few of them. Ryan R. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:14:21 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 > I see Cas's logic in this, Thankyou. >I do think that it could've been worded >better, though. *sniffles* i just opened up and started typing.. its something ive been meaning to do for a while.. >Something along the lines of, "A Shaman >must have a belief system that promotes both harmony with >nature and the best qualities of human nature." This >wouldn't necessarily exclude European cultures, but modern >Western culture is definitely out. *nods* sounds good, mind if i throw this in to the final errated version ? (fully mentioning you in the web page a few times as well..) Modern western culture is indeed out, but if we look at the historical roles of the shaman we still find the druid fits the role some what, if not totally, they still used totemic guides.. (salmon, stag, boar and bear, not to mention horse and hound as the most common ones..) Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:21:17 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Shamanism PT2 > Why not? I would think that Jordi would be more concerned >with how "big" someone is in spirit. I know plenty of big, >beefy guys who are spiritual midgets. And at 5'6" and 165 >lb. my own totemic affiliation is Tiger. *nods* Hence the shuffling of the forces, and the possible addition of the new force.. i knew some one who after a very -spiritual- vison dramatically changed over the course of a few months, physically they seemed larger, more defined. They had a dream vison and met Bear. They wasnt a small person to begin with, but after that vison, they did change some how. No not growing a foot larger or anything like that, but they went about some rigourous weigh trainign to change the fat to muscle, they desided to stop shaving, and got all beardy and hairy, and they seemd just different some how. > Most common in whose society? There are no wolves in >Africa or Polynesia and cats are not native to Australia. >This needs to be a bit more inclusive, Cas. Those three are the most common in western society, and they are the first 3 of many that i will write up. Not the only three, after them will be Eagle, Spider and Bear. I have a long list of totems.. I will piost about 9 all in all to the list then the rest will be put on to a webpage and on to the yaoo group as well for the members of that group to chew over. In time i will errata it all and make a v2 of shamanism in IN. Unless SJG makes a more comprehensive book about the different faiths and things for IN and how they interact in the presented main rule book presentation of the game. (ie not overly fluffy & not all dark and gothique and tortured) Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2673 ********************************