in_nomine-digest Friday, June 14 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2675 In this digest: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 RE: IN> Shamans PT1 Re: IN> Dead Prince #2: Mariel (Part 2) RE: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace RE: IN> Shamanism PT2 RE: IN> Worded Angel of War IN> The Guf(sp?) Re: IN> Confused about de Marches. Also Michael and Baal, but that's seperate. IN> A new minor Choir (Part 2 of 2) IN> Seraph of Flowers Attunement IN> Shamanism PT4 Spider Bear & Coyote IN> Shamanism: Limits set Re: IN> A new Minor Choir (Part 1 of 2) RE: IN> Shamanism: Limits set Re: IN> Shamanism: Limits set IN> Shamanism PT xxx IN> Techinal Difficulties Re: IN> Shamanism: Limits set Re: IN> Shamanism: Limits set IN> Dominic's Kitten Re: IN> Dominic's Kitten RE: IN> Shamanism: Limits set (ds1) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:00:48 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Walton [mailto:thunderdog_sa@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:03 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 - --- "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" wrote: > But if Jordi wants to gain more human support for his > word, then why limit > those that could become his priests? I can certainly see > reason to say the > shaman needs to have a belief system that supports or > follows one of those > traditions, but couldn't a black person, raised in > Ireland, become a Celtic shaman? I see Cas's logic in this, so I don't agree with the spirit of it. I do think that it could've been worded better, though. Something along the lines of, "A Shaman must have a belief system that promotes both harmony with nature and the best qualities of human nature." This wouldn't necessarily exclude European cultures, but modern Western culture is definitely out. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com I know modern culture is most highly offensive to Jordi, but there are certainly some of the "New Age" philosophies that are responsive to man's damage to the planet. But that is beside the point I was making. I would feel more comfortable with the Shaman if it were not set up tied so closely to the human's genetic structure. I have so many mixed "heritages" in my own personal family tree that I could never qualify because I do not have a clear linage. Does this mean I could never have an epiphany of the spirit and become someone who wishes to promote harmony between man and nature? And to go back to my original example, could not a black person, raised in a Celtic village, who has been a member of that village since birth, as was his father, and his father's father, and so on... Why would that Irish born native have to become an "African" shaman when he was raised with a belief structure that is foreign to Africa? The "type" of shaman a person becomes should be based on his belief, not his blood. In my opinion. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:13:02 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Shamans PT1 - -----Original Message----- From: cassandra benner [mailto:casiopia@hotmail.com] Of all the pagans and occultists i know, i can not think of one black (or non white) person who follows the celtic paths, they fall on to what their race is perceived to do. However, the white man goes about basterising all the practices of other contries and twists them in to something else entirely. A Houngan and a Vodun (or voodoin if you wish to call them that) both utilize the same, or very similar loahs/spirits, yet the practices of them are vastly different. **** I've never met an Archangel either, but they are in the game we play. I know two persons of color that I would call "occultists" though one is more of a "new age" kind of person and the other just a fantasy enthusiast who is a member of the Society for Creative Anachronisms and enjoys playing Call of Chthulu. For that matter, I do know many black gamers and I find the number of unconscious limits that people put on black characters demeaning. If there is no logical reason for a limit to exist in the game then why have that limit in the game? And for the record, Voodoo, Vodun, or which ever you wish to call it, began as the African slaves tried to add Christianity to their native religions, which were all mixing together as people from various tribes along the coast of Africa were thrown together. White people of the time were not bastardizing African religions. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 05:52:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dead Prince #2: Mariel (Part 2) - --- EDG wrote: > Chill: The demon with this attunement had command over > the temperature in > the area, and could lower it by 20 degrees (Fahrenheit) > or a fraction > thereof for every Essence spent on the attunement, in a > radius equal to his total Forces in yards. The connection to Oblivion seems a bit tenuous to me, but it's balanced and playable. > Call of the Void: This attunement allowed the user to > implant thoughts into > the head of another. With 4 Essence, the user could > cause his victim to > consider thoughts of suicide - or of murder This would be perfect as the Djinn of Oblivion Attunement; they can't harm their Attuned, but their attention drives the Attuned to harm themselves. > Knights of > Oblivion could use the Corporeal Song of Attraction for > free As in no Essence cost or they automatically succeed? > the level of > the Song and the check digit were both equal to the > Knight's Celestial Forces. So, free levels of the Song _and_ auto-success? > Captain of the Void: Mariel's Captains expanded their > Knight powers: their > pseudo-vacuums were actually miniature black holes, > damaging anything they touched. Reasonable. > Baron of Undoing: This exceptionally powerful ability > gave the Baron using > it the ability to effectively stop time, for the cost of > 7 Essence. For > every minute that went by in the outside world, the demon > experienced ten > minutes; the ability lasted for objective minutes equal > to the demon's > Celestial Forces, or until the demon dispelled it. This > power could only be used once per day. Needs clarification. Can they create a stasis field around another being or an object? What effects does the stasis field create (i.e. immunity to damage and/or invisibility to all forms of detection while outside of time)? > Rites > > - Destroy matter equal twice your total Forces in cubic > feet > - Convince a human to commit suicide (+2) Destroying the memory of something (say, destroying records) should also be an Oblivion Rite. > Chance of Invocation: 0 > > One did not call the Void; one heeded the Void's call. Amen! > +1 A cold fireplace > +2 A mass grave > +3 A suicide > +4 One of Gabriel's servitors > +5 One of Gabriel's servitors, bound and gagged > +6 Gabriel or Belial These don't quite gel, methinks. How about: +1: a suicide note +2: an unmarked grave +3: a corpse with no identifying marks +4: an amnesiac (Remnants count) +5: a relic of an extinct species +6: destroying an item or creature that is the last of its kind ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:39:55 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: RE: IN> Relic: Vitanda Necklace >I thought both Dominic and Asmodeous hated Outcasts and Renegades and sought >to destroy them? I could see other Superiors that might consider >Outcasting as a punishment, but not Dominic. Asmodeous might if he had some >plot ongoing, to catch other offenders, but I really don't see Judgement >being a fan of this. All I know is that I've *seen* Outcasting as a sentence of Judgment before - though I don't remember if it was in Sups 1, campaign logs, or something else. And the principle does work - forcing the angel to stay out of Heaven until s/he is suitably repentant, punishing the angel and protecting Heaven at the same time. And as I said before, 'renegade' isn't precisely the right term for the Infernal equivalent that would wear a necklace, as it implies that the demon *chose* to Run Away, not that he's an infernal excommunicate. ~S.D. Ryukage ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:43:19 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Shamanism PT2 - -----Original Message----- From: cassandra benner [mailto:casiopia@hotmail.com] Just think of those souls who finally get to heaven, and when questioned at the gates they get all miffed cos they was born in the wrong country.. Just like joan of arc was born a girl instead of a boy, if she was a he perhaps history would be very different.. **** Terrible example, Cas. Joan of Arc was persecuted by humans, not by Archangels. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:44:23 -0500 From: "Brook Freeman" Subject: RE: IN> Worded Angel of War > To take it a step further, a play could be written specifically for the > purpose of having multiple layers of actors acting liek actors who are in > another play and so on, just to generate all that additional essence. I'm > sure this wouldn't work, but wouldn't it be fun? It's called "Six Characters in Search of an Author" by Pirendello (sp?) When we did it the six 'characters' from an author's unfinished play when to a reporatory company doing live television (with real cameras on stage that were being projected onto screens at the back of the stage) and more cameras in the audience also being projected and THEN the local public broadcast channel came and shot that all for real live television broadcast (and the can repeats later). So that's what actors playing characters playing actors for a camera that is being filmed by a camera that is being filmed by another camera and being broad cast for what 8 times the essence? Brook Freeman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:04:37 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: IN> The Guf(sp?) I saw a movie a while back, one of those movies about Revelation. I forget most of the plot but there was this neat story told by one of the main characters. The story was about a place in Heaven where all human souls reside prior to being born. On a personal note, as a small child I claimed to have memories of Heaven(since forgotten). At any rate, I think this place would make a great plot device. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:01:55 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Confused about de Marches. Also Michael and Baal, but that's seperate. > > C) Can a celestial enter Heaven or Hell while Dreaming > > on Earth? > > If she were to find an Ethereal-to-Celestial Tether, > yes... but such things are extremely rare. Blandine and Beleths' towers are extremely rare? Well, perhaps. But not hard to find. - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:38:12 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> A new minor Choir (Part 2 of 2) I agree with the Rev. Pee Kitty. The Grunothim need a few more problems. A second dissonance condition such as, "Making commitments that their ephemeral nature will not allow them to keep." For instance, as a Cherub, making a promise to keep track of someone for more than one day. Or, as a Malakite, if a temporary oath was to solve a problem and the problem remains unresolved. Wee! I'm a Rules Lawyer! Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/pete.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:38:12 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Seraph of Flowers Attunement >"I have to kill him. I am a Malakite. This is what I >_do_." > >"No." Do what I do. Get out your gun, take careful aim, and start making will rolls. "We don't morally censure you, we just want the money." -Michael Palin, The Blackmail Sketch Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 05:22:13 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Shamanism PT4 Spider Bear & Coyote Heres another triumvate of Totemic Spirits. I hope you're enjoying it all so far. Yes I know there have been some comments made, but by the gods I've not seen the list this active from just a couple of members for a long time. Spider The great spider is acknowledged as a creatrix and a fearless stalker of prey, able to bind its victims in webs, and some even to poison the victim in to paralysis or death. Solitary hunters whose domain is small yet deadly to those who enter it, they bring fear and fascination to new heights. Almost all spider shamans are female.(1) Rituals of the Spider 1: Touch of the Web The spider shaman connects to the spiritual web of the surrounding environment. They gain a +3 to all perception check (except taste) when in an area equal to twice their total forces in yards (or meters) that they have performed the ritual in. As a side note, the shaman never seems to lose or mislay items in their own home or personal space. 2: Call of the Arachnid The shaman can converse to spiders, understanding fully what they say, this is a telepathic effect, but the shaman usually talks out loud to the spider, and listens intently as the spider replies. They can talk to all spiders that are in Corporeal Forces yards (or meters) area. This effect lasts for 30 seconds per level of CD. 3: Carapace if the Spider The shaman an imperceptibly change the thickness and toughness of his skin. They gain an Armour Rating equal to their Corporeal Forces, this effect last for CD rounds of combat or CD minutes in a non-combat situation. 4: Crawl the Web The shaman can with a successful ritual roll climb and smooth surface, except glass, with great ease. This effect lasts for CD minutes. Side note: the shaman seems to have a suddenly superb grip, and never unintentionally drops things from clumsiness. 5: Venomous Bite With a successful ritual roll the shaman can either spit or bite a target and inject them with a poison. If then spit the poison, it becomes a Paralytic poison. The target must make a successful Corporeal Forces check or be immobilized for CD minutes. It the venom is injected, it deals CD X2 damage. The shaman can use this method of attack an amount of times equal to his Corporeal Forces. It can be spat for Corporeal Forces in yards (or meters) 6: Form of the Spider With a successful ritual roll, the shaman can now take the form of a spider, of any shape or size (providing that sort of spider exists in his environment). This is considered as a Vessel level equal to the CD of the ritual roll for the determination of Body Points. They gain all associated abilities of spiders, like climbing, weaving web, and venom. This effect lasts for CD hours, but can be ended at will. Bear Slow, ponderous, hard to anger is how the Bear is seen. Whilst they may seem clumsy beings, they are in tune with the lands around them. In many cultures, the Bear is considered the Totem Guide of many healers. However, when provoked he can move swiftly and deal great damage to those in his path. Rituals of the Bear 1: Harmonious Sense The shaman can with a ritual roll gain an additional +1 to his environment during times of great stress. In times (or locations) of peace and solitude, the bonus is +2. 2: Voice of the Bear The shaman can with a successful ritual roll converse with the slow and ponderous animals. This effect lasts for minutes per level of CD. Why so long? Bears a slow in answering, thinking fully on the answers, and when they do answer it is slowly, much like the AA of stone. 3: Tranquillity With a successful ritual roll, the bear can instil a great sense of peace and calm in all those around it. It emanates from the shaman for Corporeal Forces in yards (or meters), and lasts for CD minutes. When in this area, the victims must make a successful Willpower roll or they will be unable to take any dangerous or violent action on anyone in the area. Even if the succeed they are still unable to attack the shaman himself, as he is just so damn calm its scary. 4: Strength of the Bear With a successful ritual roll the shaman can add the CD of the roll to his strength for 30 seconds X Corporeal Forces. Also, the CD carries over to any Brawl Damage that happens in this time. 5: Rage of the Bear When fully provoked, (IE taking more than 5 body points, or repeatedly insulted) the shaman lets out a deafening roar, and goes in to a berserk rage against his target. He gains CD X5 extra Body points, +3 strength but suffers from a -1 agility and precision for the next CD rounds. If the target is killed before the end of the effect, he then will target the next nearest living thing, be it friend or foe. 6: Body of the Bear The shaman can now take the form of a large bear, one that is typical to the area he is in. This is considered as a Vessel level equal to1 + the CD of the ritual roll for the determination of Body Points. The effect lasts for CD hours, but can be ended before that time if the shaman wishes to revert to human form again. Whilst in this form they gain +4 strength, +10 Body Hits, they also heal half the damage they may have taken whilst in human form. They do however lose 1 Precision, and 1 Agility. Coyote Cunning is the trickster, bold in one breath but a coward in another. One moment he is good-natured, the next he can be a cruel trickster. Wherever he goes, trouble seems to follow, and only his word is his bond, but even then he may have his fingers crossed.(2) Rituals of the Coyote 1: Voice of the Coyote With a successful ritual roll the shaman can converse with any coyotes he meets, but this effect only lasts for CD hours. 2: Laugh of the Coyote The shaman can make a victim feel greatly embarrassed or greatly at ease and comfort with a successful ritual roll. This may be resisted with a successful Willpower roll, Minus the CD of the ritual. This effect lasts for CD minutes. 3: Cunning Sense With a successful ritual roll the coyote shaman can take stock of an area and what items he can use to embarrass or humiliate some one. A successful use of this ritual will add +3 to the CD of the Laugh of the Coyote ritual if used consecutively. They also gain a +1 to any perception checks for the next CD minutes that involve sight. 4: Leap of the Coyote Sometimes the shaman causes too much embarrassment to its victims, and they lash out. With a successful ritual roll, the shamans adds the CD of the ritual to any escape or dodge attempts against anyone he has angered in the last days equal to his corporeal forces. This effect also allows him to get out of bonds such as handcuffs, ropes, and so forth, but he must still make an agility or precision roll successfully to slip the bonds. The CD bonus does get added to this. It will not allow him to pick the locks of doors, or any electronic device however. 5: Mewl of the Coyote With a successful ritual roll the shaman can make himself seem so lowly and pathetic that the victim feels pity for him. This allows the shaman to attempt a Fast Talk check to get away from his corporeal captors. The victim may resist with a successful intelligence roll however. This effect only lasts for the one Fast Talk roll however. If the shaman tries the ritual on the same person within fifteen minutes, they receive a +1 to their willpower for resisting him. 6: Body of the Coyote With a successful ritual roll, the shaman can now take the form of a Coyote. This is considered as a Vessel level equal to the CD of the ritual roll for the determination of Body Points. They gain +1 perception whilst in this form as well as other associated abilities, such as great speed and a savage bite. Whilst in this form they gain +1 to all the other Coyote Ritual CD's. However, whilst in this form they lose 1 Strength, as coyotes are not the greatest of fighters, preferring to gang up on the enemy. (1) As has been noted by M.Walton in another group, the spider as female is indeed a mainly native american thing, but in other cultures it is invariably a male spirit, and also associated with shamanism. (anansi for one) (2) Coyote is one of the many trickster style totems, Rabbit and others are also considered as such by many cultures. I will post the third of three Totemic Spirits in about 14-16 hours, once ive been to work and back. Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 05:41:03 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Shamanism: Limits set Ok, i dont have time this morning to answer all the mails individually, perhaps this evening i will go through them one by one and answer as best i can. This may veer a little offtopic later on today, but for this missive i will keep it as On as possible. Why have i set the limits i have on the races and countries and origins of the character? Well, a game with out limits is not fun. As was mentioned in a reply that i not long read, the person mentioned that the shaman though raised in the country not of his racial origin would still feel the pull, if only as it was his parents, grandparents and culture telling him that that was what he was. I made comment about vodoun, indeed i know it was brought about during the slavery era, i also knmow that it is just an adaptation of the baptist style of christianity, many of the preachers and houngans use christain texts in thier prayers and offerings to the loahs. However, point aside, we as a bulk still view voodoo as -black mans magic-. If thats seems racist, then close your eyes and dont look at the world anymore. It is not racist, but it is a comment on society. Im not terribly sure as its only 630am and i have no books to hand, but Voodoo does get a mention in IN. As does Necromancy, as does Alchemy. Shamanism does not. If you dont like the fact that its an AA handing out these powers to his sorcerers then just shrug your shoulders and say "well, it must come from the ethereals, so i'll just remove heaven from the equation" I do that in my games, if something doesnt fit right. Hell, ive done it with shamanism in IN as well. At the end of the day, its just a game. I saw a gaping hole of something very missing and posted what i saw as right fotting for it in my games. Hey, in my games shamans work for AA's and Ethereals. No biggie. The EPG isnt out yet, and i dont think it will really mention ethereal soldiers or shamans in this light, from the blurb, it seems to concentrate more on playing an ethereal, than the various cultures in the face of this mudball. Racism is a touchy subject, and at the end of the day, if i have offended anyone with my comments, then i appologise, i did not intend to, i do not deem what i have said to be racist. But hey, why isnt there a black AA? Eli is a white mane, well he's coloured white in the books, but we've mentioned a few times that he should have been black. Davids only vessel (thats manshaped) is that of an african as well, i think thats mentioned in one of the books about how eli made a vessal for him and its the only one he has and what it generally looks like. Its only a game, and at the end of the day you dont have to use the ideas i have presented here. I have presented Totemic Shamanism that is based on the Wests view of shamanism as a whole. If i wanted to i could write about each of the cultures differing styles of shamanism and how it fits in to IN, but that would get boring fast for those of the people on this list that want hard and fast and funny or cruel hings to throw at the players (and gms..). If you look at the rules books you'll find similar treatment of the other cultures. Actually, theres very little mention of what the War is like around the world. Its all american-centric. It mentions other relgions, and shamanism is a way of life much akin to relegion. It is a respect of something greater than the self. As for do i think black people have different souls? Well, other than a blatent goad for a flame war, as far as i am concerened a person is a person is a person. I have freinds, and some of them are from differing cultures, at the end of the day, they have two eyes, a mouth, two arms and two legs, thats human to me. Body shape, not soul type. Remember, its just a game, and a game with out boundaries is boring. Think what IN would be like if every angel could use every attunement or rite or resonance. ITs only a game. Toodles Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:55:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A new Minor Choir (Part 1 of 2) Ewwwwwww. I don't even want to think about the game balance issues that these guys would generate. Not to mention their cost in GURPS IN. OTOH, they're great for players who get bored quickly and change PC's every other game. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 04:05:45 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Shamanism: Limits set - -----Original Message----- From: cassandra benner [mailto:casiopia@hotmail.com] Ok, i dont have time this morning to answer all the mails individually, perhaps this evening i will go through them one by one and answer as best i can. This may veer a little offtopic later on today, but for this missive i will keep it as On as possible. Why have i set the limits i have on the races and countries and origins of the character? Well, a game with out limits is not fun. As was mentioned in a reply that i not long read, the person mentioned that the shaman though raised in the country not of his racial origin would still feel the pull, if only as it was his parents, grandparents and culture telling him that that was what he was. *** A game with arbitrary and unreasonable limits ain't a lot of fun either. You have yet to provide any reason for limiting shaman "styles" due to skin color except that it fits your particular prejudices. I find it slightly appalling, but as you said, you can run your game however you want. On the whole, I find the shaman a less than reasonable subject for an AA to support, and the way you've written it would probably send Dominic into toxic shock. At it's best, Jordi is promoting religious cults that are counter to the "popular" Christian cults that Heaven supports, at it's worst, shamanism supports people worshipping Jordi as a God. I would never consider using it in a game I ran. But, in the interest of trying to find ways to adapt it or make it useful, I am debating it with you. I have never been interested in starting a flame war, I just wanted an answer to my question of why a person's skin color matters. Your answer is, in my understanding, because you don't want black people to be druids or white people to be African shaman. I find this a very close minded manner of viewing things. The write up of Bright Lilim points out that there are some AA's who would very likely never have a Bright in their organization but that often players will pick a difficult concept and try to make it work, and then goes on to list Bright Attunements for every Superior. Why? Because even though the writers of the game thought that the chances of a Bright wanting to be in Dominic's hierarchy, they realized someone might want to play a Bright Lilim of Judgment. I know a lot of players like this. The more difficult a concept seems to be, the more that's what they want to do. The idea of playing an angel who has a demonic parent is pretty much inspired by the same sort of "imp of the perverse" that many people have. As far as the rest of your religious debate, I am not going to enter into it. I have no desire to discuss your prejudices about other people's cultures and religions. Arbitrary limits are poorly chosen limits. That you choose to keep them set in that fashion is your prerogative. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 04:46:22 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> Shamanism: Limits set IMO, To place limits on something without having a reason beyond 'limits are neccesary' means they rarely are. The limits which exist in IN (and most other good games) exist for the purpose of balance and definition, not to reduce storytelling ability. Balance: If everyone can do everything, then the reaches a simple stalemate in a hurry. So people have limited abilities which encourage teamwork and cooporation between a group. Definition: Providing a visual image for the celestial forms and suchlike. Creating the politics of Heaven and Hell out of a mishmash of angelology and deciding how the best story could be told. Racial limits serve neither purpose, unless those races have inherent balance issues or because it breaks the definition too far. Frankly, given the fair number of RL counterexamples that have been shown, limiting shamanism (which is a sorta neat idea that I'll probally steal, in some form, for my own games) is silly. And your primary defense seems to be that 'it's a game, you can retcon it however you like'. While true, it's not much of a reason. WS Malakite of Fate Angel of Socratic Logic. 'What'dya mean Malakites can't serve Fate?' Who just had another awful idea. Dark Malakim are insane, Discord wracked monsters... and they can't Fall... but what if a Malakim were to try and Jump? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:56:06 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Shamanism PT xxx I think this is getting way too complicated. I'd just make Shamen like Soldiers for the Etherials. That way you can have "Mystic Warriors", too. I'll Shut Up Now, BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:58:01 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Techinal Difficulties If it wasn't happening to me I'd think it was a bad practical joke. I can't think of a clever tagline, BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 05:45:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Shamanism: Limits set - --- cassandra benner wrote: > > Why have i set the limits i have on the races and > countries and origins of the character? > Well, a game with out limits is not fun. So true. > I made comment about vodoun, indeed i know it was brought > about during the > slavery era, i also knmow that it is just an adaptation > of the baptist style of christianity Not precisely. Voudoun, Santeria, Candomble and all of the other syncretic faiths are hybrids of Christianity and traditional African and Native American religions. They vary in the exact proportions of each ingredient. The Christian component is also not necessarily Baptist -- sometimes it's derived more from Catholicism (some Catholic Saints are revered as Loa, for example). > However, point aside, we as a bulk still view voodoo as > -black mans magic-. Yes, that is the perception. There are White voudounistas, though, especially in New Orleans. > Im not terribly sure as its only 630am and i have no > books to hand, but Voodoo does get a mention in IN. > As does Necromancy, as does Alchemy. > > Shamanism does not. Which is why I like the basic idea of your offering -- it fills a gap in the published material. > Racism is a touchy subject, and at the end of the day, if > i have offended anyone with my comments, then i appologise I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not offended. And as an African-American, I'd be the first one who'd have reason to be. > But hey, why isnt there a black AA? Because my version of Raziel isn't canon. 0;> ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 05:54:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Shamanism: Limits set - --- W S wrote: > Racial limits serve neither purpose, unless those > races have inherent balance issues or because it > breaks the definition too far. This is why I said that Cas's original statement could've been better worded. You're right in saying that racial limits don't make sense -- but cultural limits are critical to the definition issue that you bring up. Going by this principle, becoming a shaman would be limited not by the color of one's skin but by the culture that one identified with. The RP issue tied to this is that a person who identifies with a culture other than that of his ethnic heritage is going to have trouble fitting in with both groups; a Black man who wants to become a druid will be regarded by suspicion by other Blacks (who'll see him as an "oreo") and by the druids he tries to emulate (who will need serious convincing regarding the applicant's sincerity). If a player is aware of these RP issues and can be trusted to treat them in the sensitive manner that they deserve, I say let him play the concept. But don't let a player bring in a blond, blue-eyed voudoun priestess just to be different. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:14:25 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: IN> Dominic's Kitten Is Dominic's kitten canon? And what is its name? I have seen three or four different stories mentioning the kitten and each calls it by a different name. Can I get a final word on this? _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:22:13 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's Kitten > Is Dominic's kitten canon? No. It was first mentioned with the submission of the Angel of the Selfless Gift. > And what is its name? I have seen three or four different stories mentioning > the kitten and each calls it by a different name. The name is whatever the writer thinks it should be. Of course, there is a certain futility of naming an animal that won't come when you call it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:16:14 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: RE: IN> Shamanism: Limits set (ds1) >From: "Bergeron, R F A game with arbitrary and unreasonable limits ain't a >lot of fun either. *nods* But sometimes you need certains, and definites. Frex: Michael is the AA of War, he has a bloody big axe, and is darned good with it. This is a certain. If i was handed a rule book that said "well, he sometimes has an axe, it all depends on who's runnign the game, if i was running it he wouldnt but when Bob Smith runs it, he has it witha bloody big axe." >You have yet to provide any reason for limiting shaman "styles" due to skin >color except that it fits your particular prejudices. No, not mine, but the world as a whole, not each and every person thinsk line that, but when from an overall perspective its looked at, you fidn that people do consider voodoo to tbe the black mans magic, and wicca to be the fluffy teen majik and satanism to be the goth metaler magick. These are definites. However, i know of two white men, who work with Mme Racine. Who's she? look her up, those who know know, those who dont, well go find out, you might like to add her as a soloder or npc oneday, facinating woman. >On the whole, I find the shaman a less than reasonable subject for an AA to >support, Very possibly, but hey, michael still has the dogman of the warrior cults that were raised in him name. Those cults were what represented him on earth, just as shamanism is something that could be benificial to heaven. Bearing inmind that many of the shamanic mythos's have one allpowerful creator god behind them. There might be intermediaries such as lesser gods, or totem spirits, but the Big God still gets the essence. >and the way you've written it would probably send Dominic into >toxic shock. *chuckle* Find a cult that dominic hasnt had a screaming hissy fit at. >At it's best, Jordi is promoting religious cults that are >counter to the "popular" Christian cults that Heaven supports, at it's >worst, shamanism supports people worshipping Jordi as a God. As i mentioned, many of the shamanic mythos's have One almighty creator god at the head of the, this is how i would run it in my games and have run it in the past. >I would never >consider using it in a game I ran. Thats your choice, not once have i said "righty ho chaps and chapesses this is cannon, what i say goes, this is now how you will play your games period" >But, in the interest of trying to find ways to adapt it or make it useful, >I >am debating it with you. And im enjoying it as well, it allows me to try to get across the point of it thats in my head. I have never been interested in starting a flame >war, Good to know, im sure that beth is as we speak putting the sausages and burgers away. >I just wanted an answer to my question of why a person's skin color >matters. Your answer is, in my understanding, because you don't want black >people to be druids or white people to be African shaman. And now that i am back from work i will answer it, in game terms as well as in irl terms. IRL: To my knowledge, there are currently 3 people in the order of bards, ovates and druids who are not white, or who cannot trace thier linage back beyond the 1900's in this country. Game terms: As above. >The write up of >Bright Lilim points out that there are some AA's who would very likely >never >have a Bright in their organization *smiles* So, what your saying is it might never happen but it can yes? Ok, lets look at what ive said so far.. Shamans can work for jordi. Going by your statment this is fine yes? Shamans can work for ethereal sprits this is fine yes? You however do not like the real life things i put in to my games such as racism? Then prey you never have the chance to play in any of my games, not even WoD or AD&D. Racism and Clanism and Tribism is rampant. It is a dynamic that is as old as man itself. Tribe A hate tribe B because tribe B look sdifferent, war ensues. German leader A doesnt like Jewish population B so war ensues. >but that often players will pick a >difficult concept and try to make it work, and then goes on to list Bright >Attunements for every Superior. Just as i have given the powers that jordi (or shamanic totems) might gift if that system was used. As some one mentioned at some pointand i agree with whole heartedly, David, Jordi, Novalis, Blandine and Eli are the ones i would think most likely to have shamanic soldiers in thier ranks. Why? Because even though the writers of >the game thought that the chances of a Bright wanting to be in Dominic's >hierarchy, they realized someone might want to play a Bright Lilim of >Judgment. Just as some one might want to play a shaman of jordi, he who represents the animals on this planet, who inturn is tied the the larger Creator God. >I know a lot of players like this. The more difficult a concept seems to >be, the more that's what they want to do. By which definition, players want to play shamans cos its hard for a shaman to be working for heaven... The idea of playing an angel who >has a demonic parent is pretty much inspired by the same sort of "imp of >the >perverse" that many people have. Oddly, none of my players have expressed the wanting to play such a character. >I have no desire to discuss your prejudices about other people's >cultures and religions. Not mine, but humanity (esp western humanity) as a whole has. Its somethign that i have looked at and studied some what, not in any great detail, but to some amount. >Arbitrary limits are poorly chosen limits. Thats just like saying "well he's a mercurian but he's gonna go round killing humans, cos he wanted to be a malakite but never made the grade" A killer mercurian is a no no as far as the rules go. Sure a player might want to play it, but after a session, he'll see that from the amount of heavenly adversity he's facing and coming against, thats its wrong for a mercurian to act in that manner. >That you choose to keep them set >in that fashion is your prerogative. *nods* Yes, at heart i am a realist. I know racism is a rife thing, and i play my games somewhat dark and not so bitter sweet, where it is a struggle not to just give in and let the mercurian go on a killing spree. However i also allow for the fact that its a game and that supernatural powers in game exist, so real life does need to be ignored in amny areas, but in some, it needs to be reinforced. >DS1 Toodles Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2675 ********************************