in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 18 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2679 In this digest: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? RE: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? IN> New Word Contest For June RE: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? RE: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? IN> Jumping Malakim... Re: IN> Jumping Malakim... Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? RE: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? IN> Dominic, without the Hood (RE: Ethnic backgrounds) IN> K.K. (Re: Jumping Malakim...) Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 05:53:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? - --- "Harfield@eidosnet.co.uk" wrote: > I don't know about the archangels - personally I'm of the > mindset that > beings of such power can look like whatever they want - > but the important > question is what ethnic backgrounds do the Other Side > favour? Considering their opinions toward humanity in general, I'd say that demons tend to go for whatever ethnicity is the majority in the regions where they operate -- when they have a choice. But just like with angels, a demon takes whatever Vessel his Superior gives him: Malphas probably hands out Vessels of varying ethnicities to his demons (and probably tends to keep his demons within the same ethnic group with each new Vessel) just to factionalize them that way. Belial may favor the darker-skinned races just because they look like they've gotten some sun. Asmodeus' demons appear to be members of whatever group will make it easier to get the job done (which isn't always the majority; at one of my old jobs I was amazed at how easily a person of color can turn invisible in an otherwise all-White environment just by putting on a uniform and a name tag). Furfur would do the exact opposite of blending in; his demons would have Vessels that stand out. That group of demons in Latino Vessels crashing the KKK rally? Probably Furfurites. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 05:56:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? - --- Roger Williby wrote: > > Now, of course some people have a different idea of what > a redneck is. If you've ever used a Song of Motion to get a beer from the refrigerator, you might be a redneck demon... ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:34:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Unni Solaas Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, John Dallman wrote: > I mean, can /you/ see Lucifer in a vessel as an American redneck? Yes I can. This _does_ however depend upon which version of Lucifer you "like" to have around, and which legeneds and folklore about the devil you as a GM choose to blame Lucifer himself for, as opposed to blaming Prince Wossname or demon Joe or even an (or several) ethereal. In Scandinavian folklore (and therefore most European folklore, seeing as these tales wandered all over the place) there is a quite strong image of the Devil at someone who could teach certain skills to those who were willing to deal with him. Especially fiddlers had a reputation of learning skills from the Devil. An exceptional fiddler called 'Myllarguten' who lived 150 years ago was said to have leaned to play the fiddle by 'Gamle-Erik' (Old Erik = Old Nick) himself. We even have a piece of music aptly named 'Fanitullen' - literally 'The Devil's Tune'. A wild piece of fiddlemusic that is supposed to have been played first by Himself while he was sitting of top of a big barrel of beer. You can read that story here: http://www.espen.com/papers/fanitullen.html Now the rednecks I belive are mostly of Scottish and Irish (and English?) decent. They have a lot of similar folklore and tradition with Scandinavia, and they certainly knew how to play their intruments. I have no problem whatsoever imagining a redneck Lucifer teaching a redneck fiddler some new tricks and tunes on the flute or the fiddle. (Not to mention the banjo...;) After all: Lucifer wants the whole of mankind to end up in the Pit, right? So therefore Lucifer would make sure to be around in various disguises in every nation and every layer of society at various times, right? (Which incidentally mean that I have no problem seeing him as some mysterios African wanderer 'gifting' a Ghanese musician with an amazing skill on the drums. Or as an equally mysterious person teaching the mitibiq (a wind intrument) to someone in Iran.:) But, like I said, it all depends on what sort of Lucifer you like. The smooth, suave, cool, gentleman Lucifer from some novels, movies and comics fits rather poorly with the image of the fiddler on the beerbarrel.:) - -- Stercus, stercus, stercus, moriturus sum! Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:06:45 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >I dunno. I see a Japanese Novy a lot easier, because a) the Orient has all >these cool proverbs like "The bending reed survives the storm, the >unbending >oak does not" and b) she fits the cliche of 'ancient master who you think >you can break over your knee, but will in fact outlive everything including >yourself '. I can see this. >Zadkiel, on the other hand, is definitely black to me. Do you know, Zadkiel is a *blank* to me. I've never been able to picture her at all. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:11:31 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? On the subject of redneck Lucifer I also have this to say: Now, the devil went down to Georgia He was looking for a soul to steal. (commence wild fiddlin') _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:13:11 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >Do you know, Zadkiel is a *blank* to me. I've never been able to >picture >her at all. It would be nice if everyone pictured all superiors in this way. And would much better reflect their true nature. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:00:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? I rather liked the symbolist and abstract pictures for most of the Superiors in the main book -- Marc as a golden silhoutte, for instance. That struck me as better conveying the idea of a personified principle that did specific human forms. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:18:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? - --- Unni Solaas wrote: > In Scandinavian folklore (and therefore most European > folklore, seeing as > these tales wandered all over the place) there is a quite > strong image of > the Devil at someone who could teach certain skills to > those who were > willing to deal with him. Especially fiddlers had a > reputation of learning skills from the Devil. There's a song called "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" (at least, I think that's the title) that fits in perfectly with this idea of Lucifer. > Now the rednecks I belive are mostly of Scottish and > Irish (and English?) descent. I would think mostly English, seeing as how Anglo-Saxons are the majority here. But the principle still stands. > I have > no problem whatsoever imagining a redneck Lucifer > teaching a redneck > fiddler some new tricks and tunes on the flute or the > fiddle. (Not to mention the banjo...;) Oh Lord, give us *deliverance* from such jokes... > (Which incidentally mean that I have no problem seeing > him as some > mysterios African wanderer 'gifting' a Ghanese musician > with an amazing > skill on the drums. Or as an equally mysterious person > teaching the > mitibiq (a wind intrument) to someone in Iran.:) Daily Essence to you, Unni! ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:29:04 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? From: "Unni Solaas" > On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, John Dallman wrote: > > > I mean, can /you/ see Lucifer in a vessel as an American redneck? > > Yes I can. Same with me - he would pick his vessel for maximum effect on the people he would be around, after all. Especially if he's going down to a certain state I can't name, since it would border on taking my reply into a banned thread. ;:;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:42:52 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? I am starting to think that ethnicity of Superiors should be added to the list of banned topics. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:51:07 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >I am starting to think that ethnicity of Superiors should be added to the >list of banned topics. *sigh* I'm starting to agree with you. Janet Anderson (getting out the ten-foot pole again) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:02:29 -0400 From: "Adams, David" Subject: RE: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? From: Eric Bertish Zadkiel, on the other hand, is definitely black to me. I'm thinking specifically of an angel TV show that used to air Sunday evenings.... yes, her. And David. I don't know how they got the Aryan thing with him. Maybe it is due to the corralation drawn between Stone and some unsavory organizations promoting the Aryan race? I see David as an obsidian statue animated sort of how they portray the statues moving in Interview with a Vampire. As to what he looks like when he goes on the corporeal, I tend to see him in a very strong and muscular vessel of whatever race is predominate in the community closest to where he is. Just my two cents, Dave p.s. Notice how short e-mails are when you just use the parts you refer to and discard the rest. It's a lot easier on the eyes and you spend less time trying to figure what part of the whole e-mail the reply addresses. Please try to remember to cut out what we have already read in previous e-mails. It is bad enough that we are getting those e-mails multiple times from the server. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:25:33 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Cameron McCurry wrote: > I am starting to think that ethnicity of Superiors should be added to the list of banned topics. Why? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:52:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Ryan M Roth Subject: IN> New Word Contest For June Hello Everyone: I thought I'd propose a contest for the list. Entries should be posted to the list by July 1st. I will be the judge in this case, and will announce the winner on July 2nd. The idea is to encourage thought on celestials with odd or unsual Words. Contest rules I have selected at random (by flipping through an old dictionary and pointing to a random page) seven words. Contestants are to create a well-developed character who is either a celestial who currently is Word-bound to one of these Words, or a character who's life/carrer as been profoundly influenced by one of these words. Points will be awarded on a ten point scale for Originality, Technical Merit, and Craziness. Bonus points will be awarded for well thought-out background histories. Bonus points will be awarded for using more than one of the words in the character's background. Points will be subtracted for poor grammar and spelling. Contestants can use either the plural or singular form of the words. Contestants can use the noun or verb form of the word (including -ing forms), if applicable. The words for June are: Rut Gimmick Frisson Bullock Stymie Calumny Temerity I don't currently operate a IN webpage, but I may prevail upon others to post exceptional entries. Have Fun. Ryan R. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:33:27 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: RE: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? My $.02... why not. When David showed up in my game, he was an animated rock statue. I think the phrase I used was "vaguely African features," but if any Archangel were to unambiguously prefer a black vessel, I definitely think it would be David. After all, his favorite Vessel is described in roughly this fashion. His picture in G:IN is whiter than his picture in S1, and I prefer S1's version. Somebody mentioned that there was a picture of Dominic with his hood down. This surprises me, and I'd like the reference if anyone knows it. At any rate, I pick Dominic and Jean as being the most likely angels to transcend notions of gender and race in their celestial appearances; Dominic since he so rarely takes any kind of a human form at all, and Jean since he's an Elohite and they make rather a big deal of not requiring the "extraneous" characteristics. ( "Barcode! Barcode!" Down, fiend!) I do like Jean's picture in G:IN though (a graying white man with chiseled features). Khalid's preferred vessel is *quite* well-described, no need to dwell on that here. Novalis... well, the image I have is that of her picture in G:IN, which is white. Celestially, I very much like Beth's notion of her basic form being a giant ladybug with doubled wings. (I don't think we ever talked about the basic form Blandine might have chosen, and by extension Beleth and Asmodeus, since those three all tend to appear in human form nigh-on *all* the time.) Gabriel's half-page picture in Superiors 3 always struck me as looking quite Asian, in fact. The long, straight black hair does that, and there's a certain ambiguity about the eyes that allows that to be read. Eli's picture in the Liber Reliquarum is... icky, to me. Not Smif's best work. I'm not sure what effect he was going for, but it looks pixelated and scratchy. Purely my humble opinion, of course. Perhaps if Jordi were ever to manifest in a human vessel, he'd look like one of the southwestern bloodlines of Native American. Not that I haven't spouted off on-list before about fluffy NA stereotypes, but if you're going to be human, pick one with positive associations with your Word. In America, at any rate. In Japan, he might be Ainu; in New Zealand, Maori. Janus' picture in G:IN is a little abstract to base anything on. When I've considered him, I always picture him as a coherent whirlwind in Celestial form; on Earth, I more often picture him appearing as a great rushing of wind, speaking to his Servitors and manipulating objects as necessary. An old, inhuman Archangel. I have no solid picture of him as a human. Laurence's Vessel is well-described in S1 and his picture in G:IN matches it. If I had to pick a geographic origin I'd say Italian, since after all it is the keeper of Rome and the Vatican. Marc always seemed pretty white to me; Michael likewise, as his picture in G:IN is *awesome*; and Yves is also well-described. Pity about the cigarettes, though. I just take that little tidbit and use it to remind myself that the Archangels (and especially Yves) are not going to exactly reflect my own values and preconceptions. (It seems to set a bad example, to me -- Yves isn't going to get lung cancer, but the humans watching him might. So why does he do it? I don't know, and I find considering the idea a curious experience.) William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:46:06 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >From: "Janet Anderson" >Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:06:45 +0000 [snip] >I can see this. Or Novalis done up as Kwan Yin. >>Zadkiel, on the other hand, is definitely black to me. > >Do you know, Zadkiel is a *blank* to me. I've never been able to picture >her at all. Ever since I read a [certain series of novels I've already done IN comparisions to three times over], I've always seen Zadkiel as a six-foot-plus tall graceful blonde, well-muscled but beautiful, and absolutely not beefy or ungainly. Think Wonder Woman with a Joan of Arc haircut in blonde. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > Yves is also well-described. Pity > about the > cigarettes, though. [snip] So why does he do it? Because it was originally a French game, and the French don't have the same love/hate relationship with Big Tobacco that we Americans have? ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:00:05 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? > > I don't know about the archangels - personally I'm of the >mindset that >beings of such power can look like whatever they >want - but the important >question is what ethnic backgrounds do >the Other Side favour? > >Depends on the impression they want to make, if they're dealing with >anyone who an impression can be made on. And on the dignity of the thing. >I mean, can /you/ see Lucifer in a vessel as an American redneck? > > I could reference Rev. Phelps, Pat Robertson, or Pat Buchanan, but the perfect reference that came to mind was the Distinguish Southern Gentleman sort, which, admittedly, even by Yankee Standards, is incredibly red of neck. Kamika-Z, tongue-in-cheekish _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:01:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Michael Walton wrote: > > --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > > Yves is also well-described. Pity > > about the > > cigarettes, though. [snip] So why does he do it? > > Because it was originally a French game, and the French > don't have the same love/hate relationship with Big Tobacco > that we Americans have? I thought it was to make Yves look like George Burns, widely known for (1) smoking, or at least holding, cigars and (2) playing the part of God. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:07:17 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? > > Oh, g*ds, no. Zadkiel's got far more of a sultry-ish > > thing going. At least, in my head. She's the mom who > looks good. >The one you expect all your friends > to lean over and whisper to you, >"Dude, that chick > is SO hot..." whereupon you just give them a look > and >say, "Dude...that's my -mother-." > > Oh, heck yeah! That's Zaddie, all right. The one >element that needs adding is that, just like that >archetypal hot mom, she'd never initiate such inappropriate >contact (please note that I'm talking about the archetype >here, not the actuality) -- but how she'd punish anyone who did! > I contest that, and only for -one- reason (and that reason is sort of the theory behind another bit of fic); if the subject is one of her attuned, and such inappropriate contact was the one thing that would keep someone from going forth and doing something that would help them meet their fatee...if the subject of such an attunement had been confiding many things, for a long time, and she knew what quality of person that this individual was... Kamika-Z ...and bear in mind, that's a MIGHTY big if... >===== >Michael Walton, #US2002023848 > "Be aware that most people are operating on a >highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... >the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup >http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:11:39 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? > > > Now, of course some people have a different idea of > > >what a redneck is. > > If you've ever used a Song of Motion to get a beer from >the refrigerator, you might be a redneck demon... > >===== -GAH!- Here. Have a laugh point. Now get out, and take yer stupid with you! ;) Kamika-Z ...if you only 'get it up' when sharing sibling roles with another demon... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:17:44 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >I rather liked the symbolist and abstract pictures for most >of the Superiors in the main book -- Marc as a golden silhoutte, >for instance. That struck me as better conveying the idea of >a personified principle that did specific human forms. > >Earl Tell me, who comes to mind when you think of peanut butter? Better yet, what comes to mind when you think of spammers? Or, even better; when you think of an angry, militant feminist? Sometimes, a personified principle comes built-in with a distinctive 'look', whether we like it or not. Kamika-Z, sorta doubting the Demon of Gangstah Rap has many light skinned vessals... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:23:44 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >>I am starting to think that ethnicity of Superiors should be added to the >>list of banned topics. > >*sigh* I'm starting to agree with you. > >Janet Anderson >(getting out the ten-foot pole again) > I don't think you're going to find any Grigori matching that height requirement ANYWHERE in Eastern Europe, anymore. However, I can give you a a good $5 Czech, if that will help... Kamika-Z ...why Five Dollah? Cause he's 500 cent(imeter, that is...) > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:39:40 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >Cameron McCurry wrote: >>I am starting to think that ethnicity of Superiors should be added to the >>list of banned topics. > > >Why? > For once, I'm inclined to agreeing with Edelstein; I think it's a perfect example of something that isn't addressed in the main book or In Nomine, which might hold some bearing on not only sales demographics, but the sort of impression the line makes, overall. Bear in mind, this DOES improve considerably over the course of the Revelations Cycle, I noticed, especially when we get to Heaven and Hell, and there's the No Dinero turf war, with an Asiatic - -vessaled Elohite who is specifically avoiding a part of town due to the reactions that he is getting. They're not even bad reactions, mind you, but they are rather valid cause for someone trying to be rather low-profile to change their routes of getting about. The ethnicity of a Role should also play an advantageous part in things, on occasion, though. The eccentric Trader who happens to prefer an arabic vessal might find himself with a good deal more support from a community where he 'meshes'...as well as getting a good deal of covert support from the local undercover Khalidians. Likewise, if Andrealphus is putting someone in to further corrupt a sorority house, then the Lustie should be be at an advantage if it's a 'prestigious' all-black membership and the vessal happens to look like, say, one of the tennis-playing Williams sisters. Kamika-Z, who thinks it should be discussed, even if it is 'hotbutton'. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:50:52 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? >I mean, can /you/ see Lucifer in a vessel as an American redneck? No, but I can see him as a Southern Gentleman, ala "Colonel Sanders". >From my heart and from my hand Why don't people understand My intentions -Weird Science BC Petery http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:50:52 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >> "The bending reed survives the storm, the unbending oak does not" > They have proberbs like that in African too. I thought that was from Aesop (Greek). "Filmore, some capers you _have_ to pull, whether you want to or not." -Dr. Tod, "Thirty Minutes Over Broadway", Wild Cards, Vol. 1 Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:50:49 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> Jumping Malakim... >>>> Don't be a dissonant Malakite >>>> at the Eighth Virtue. >>> >>>Don't be a dissonant ANYTHING at the 8th Virtue. >>> >>>Unless you LIKE being thought of as a party favor.... >> >> A very dissonant Shedite, begging for redemption, would probably >> be okay! O:> > >KK, on the other wing, would just LOVE to find out where it's being held... I don't see how KK gets a Geas by allowing a Malakite to destroy her Vessel. I'd think a Malakite would Need to destroy her Celestialy. Especially if that Malakite owed her for a Vessel killing. "Ha ha. I think I'll run off an join a media circus." -Pete Pete, Demon of Misinformation http://www15.brinkster.com/ugwump/IN/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:07:05 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Jumping Malakim... >From: BC Petery >Subject: IN> Jumping Malakim... >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:50:49 -0400 >I don't see how KK gets a Geas by allowing a Malakite to destroy her >Vessel. "I shall not suffer an Evil to live, if it is my choice." This Oath covers Vessel-killing as well as soul-killing. If KK can get a successful look in a Malakite's eyes, that's at least a Need/1 (and probably no more than a Need/2, given that it's not much of an effort for her to fulfill the Need given how cheaply Kobal is subsidizing her Vessel replacement. Maybe a Need/3 if you consider Trauma 'significant risk'.) >I'd think a Malakite would Need to destroy her Celestialy. That's a Need/6, but KK would Choose not to fulfill that one. :) >Especially if that Malakite owed her for a Vessel killing. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:20:35 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Well, I had answered David privately, but to sum up my opinion. I have seen this discussion happen before on the list. It generally disintegrates into two threads that don't die easily: 1. Eli must be a black man! Look at his picture in the main book! 2. Why does it say that David favors African vessels and he is portrayed as a white man? I find it far easier to just say that a Superior is going to show up in whatever Vessel would blend in. >>The ethnicity of a Role should also play an advantageous part in things, on occasion, though. Which can be played out in a campaign. That's what role playing is for. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:33:10 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >I find it far easier to just say that a Superior is going to show up in >whatever Vessel would blend in. Change "Superior" to "celestial" and you've got my vote ... Janet Anderson (who strongly suspects that the answer to the second question is "because the illustrator didn't read the text") _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:44:22 -0500 From: "Brook Freeman" Subject: RE: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Demon Princes(s's)? > > I don't know about the archangels - personally I'm of the mindset that > > beings of such power can look like whatever they want - but the > > important question is what ethnic backgrounds do the Other Side favour? > > Depends on the impression they want to make, if they're dealing with > anyone who an impression can be made on. And on the dignity of the thing. > I mean, can /you/ see Lucifer in a vessel as an American redneck? Yes and my mind immediately sprang to the song about the fiddle contest with the Devil. Brook ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:17:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Dominic, without the Hood (RE: Ethnic backgrounds) At 1:33 PM -0400 6/18/02, William J. Keith wrote: >Somebody mentioned that there was a picture of Dominic with his hood down. >This surprises me, and I'd like the reference if anyone knows it. Twice, off the top of my head. Both in Final Trumpet. p. 5 and (I think) p. 105. >Celestially, I very much like Beth's notion of [Novalis'] basic form being >a giant ladybug with doubled wings. (I don't think we ever talked about >the basic form Blandine might have chosen, and by extension Beleth and >Asmodeus, since those three all tend to appear in human form nigh-on *all* >the time.) I've generally thought of Blandine as a snow-leopard, and Beleth as some mutation of a panther. Asmodeus, I see as what happens if you gigerize a Chinese dragon. Long, twisty and drippy and with lots of claws and empty eyes of black flame, against black scales, and all of it should be one glistening oozing length of black, except in celestial form you can see it all too clearly in all the different shades of black. With fangs, too. Something that you can describe piece by piece, but when you try to put the pieces together into a whole in your mind, you start making the SAN checks. The Cherub version of him, therefore, was probably something like a Chinese dragon with feathered wings. (Sort of like the DragonTales dragons, with featherwings...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:01:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> K.K. (Re: Jumping Malakim...) At 7:07 PM +0000 6/18/02, Charles Glasgow wrote: >>From: BC Petery >>Subject: IN> Jumping Malakim... >>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:50:49 -0400 > >>I don't see how KK gets a Geas by allowing a Malakite to destroy her >>Vessel. > >"I shall not suffer an Evil to live, if it is my choice." > >This Oath covers Vessel-killing as well as soul-killing. [...] A further comment about K.K.: Yes. She's a munchkin. She's an ___*NPC*___ munchkin. Her schtick specifically depends on a Prince's favor, and thus, is completely up to the GM's whim. (If the GM doesn't like this schtick, then she'd be no fun to play.) She was created as an NPC to harass PC Malakim (or PCs who know Malakim; perhaps one of them could find some way to put K.K. in enough of a bind that she'd reliquish this hook on this particular new-fledged Swordie?). So anyone who thinks she's abusive can rest assured that she's an NPC and as such, only the GM's opinion about her matters. (So we don't get _that_ bit of flamewar again, hopefully...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:40:27 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? Cameron McCurry wrote: > Well, I had answered David privately, You did? > I have seen this discussion happen before on the list. It generally disintegrates into two threads that don't die easily: > > 1. Eli must be a black man! Look at his picture in the main book! > > 2. Why does it say that David favors African vessels and he is portrayed as a white man? Really? I've been on the list longer than anyone else here, I think (even Beth), and while I've seen the topic come up before, I've never seen it "disintegrate" into those arguments. > I find it far easier to just say that a Superior is going to show up in whatever Vessel would blend in. That's fine, if the thread were about how you personally would handle Superior ethnicities in your campaign. The discussion is about the predominant imagery used in the supplements, however. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:45:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? - --- Gregg Forge wrote: > However, I can give you a a good $5 Czech, if that will > help... As long as the Czech doesn't bounce. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:49:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? - --- Gregg Forge wrote: > For once, I'm inclined to agreeing with Edelstein; I > think it's a > perfect example of something that isn't addressed in the > main book or > In Nomine, which might hold some bearing on not only > sales > demographics, but the sort of impression the line makes, > overall. That must be the Trump you hear, because I, too, agree with David on this one. > The ethnicity of a Role should also play an > advantageous part in > things, on occasion, though. The eccentric Trader who > happens to > prefer an arabic vessal might find himself with a good > deal more support from a community where he 'meshes' Quite so. > Kamika-Z, who thinks it should be discussed, even if it > is 'hotbutton'. Which raises my estimation of you considerably. :> ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:30:37 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >--- Gregg Forge wrote: > > However, I can give you a a good $5 Czech, if that will > > help... > > As long as the Czech doesn't bounce. > He's a mortal! He can't yoyo. But he CAN work at No Dinero... Kamika-Z, keepin' it on topic...;) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:37:04 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Ethnic backgrounds of Archangels? >--- Gregg Forge wrote: > > For once, I'm inclined to agreeing with Edelstein; I > > think it's a perfect example of something that isn't > addressed in the >main book of In Nomine, which might > hold some bearing on not only sales >demographics, but > the sort of impression the line makes, overall. > > That must be the Trump you hear, because I, too, agree >with David on this one. > That's when I considered the Final Trumpet, and REM, but that's a Forbidden Thread™, so... > > The ethnicity of a Role should also play an > > advantageous part in things, on occasion, though. The > eccentric >Trader who happens to prefer an arabic vessal > might find himself with a >good deal more support from a > community where he 'meshes' > > Quite so. I was going to shoot for a different example, but Rev 3 gives a good example of how even a positive reaction can be a bad thing, such as with the asian-looking Swordie. Still, it does give a good deal of 'realism' to the idea, especially if one's Role develops a close gathering of friends. > > Kamika-Z, who thinks it should be discussed, even if it > > is 'hotbutton'. > > Which raises my estimation of you considerably. :> > What, it was that low? ;D Still, many thanks. Kamika-Z, live, with the latest issues... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2679 ********************************