in_nomine-digest Monday, July 1 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2691 In this digest: IN> Joktan, Promotor Fidei, Habbalite of the Game Re: IN> Just when you thought... IN> Saw Patton last night... Re: IN> Saw Patton last night... IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. Re: IN> Just when you thought... IN> Vessels out of Limbo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:07:25 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: IN> Joktan, Promotor Fidei, Habbalite of the Game He was one of the original Fallen. It's sometimes wondered: what went through the minds of those first broken-elohim when they saw that they had become something new, to be called demons? Not that he believes he is a demon, of course. Before the Fall, he was called Mnason, "diligent seeker." Working under the supervision of Dominic, his purpose was to examine the nooks and crannies of the law, trying to find those sticky points where confusion might gain a toehold, and either bring a solution to Dominic for judgment, or bring the problem itself before him for resolution. He was fertile soil for the Lightbringer's rebel philosophy, and with a will raised his sword against his fellows on the terrible Day. - ----- "Why did they not understand? The Lightbringer had questioned God. One must question before one can be answered. They willfully blinded themselves, wrapping themselves in their faith. Foolish. Faith untested shatters at the lightest blow. It was therefore necessary that we take up arms, and strike the very blow, in order that our comrades might question, and be answered, and emerge with their faith the stronger." **Joktan, "The Crisis of Faith" - ----- In the darkness of the exile that followed, some of the first Fallen dared to question the Lightbringer's wisdom, claiming that he had led them into defeat. Taking a new name, Joktan was one of the most vociferous in defending the justice of their cause, and in exterminating those who became violent. Lucifer did not forget. Though a Princedom was for the moment not available -- Asmodeus was the representative of Dominic's angels that was to lead the Game -- Joktan took a place with Mammon as one of Asmodeus' most honored (and diligent) servants. There he was carefully watched, as a prime example of what these unusual, deluded demons would do. Joktan provided example that the Habbalah could be a valuable asset to Hell. Indeed, Joktan's statement, "The Crisis of Faith," (one of the oldest written works in Hell, predated only by Lucifer's Testament) is still taken by many Habbalah as the model of their beliefs and philosophies. - ----- "I looked about me and saw weaklings. Some were disgusted with their new forms. The Calabim were particularly horrified. The Shedim were bothered least. But we, the Habbalah, were unchanged. We still wore the simple bipedal forms that we always had. In this we awoke to the truth. We were not Fallen, we were not what were being called demons. Just as we had sought to follow the greater interest into the very Pit, so we were called to do God's work amidst the rebels. We were His chosen angels, retaining our old distinguishing ability and given the marks of the new race so that we might project His divine Will among them and from them. Only one thing was missing. To complete our work, our pristine angelic perfection had to be cloaked away under the hideous looks of the new race; His final test, to see whether we accepted our new task. With the brand and the knife and the lash, we showed Him our faith." **Joktan, "The Crisis of Faith" - ----- As befits one of the original Habbalah, Joktan's delusions are not restricted to the basic belief that he is an angel. Joktan believes that, in fact, like Uriel's purity keeps Malakim from Falling(oh, *bother* CDaU. Joktan believes it), only Joktan's continued existence keeps Elohim from Falling. This delusion is subtly reinforced by his title. For writing "The Crisis of Faith," and extraordinary efforts that set some patterns which are followed still today in Hell's government of the Habbalah, Lucifer gave Joktan a Word: "The Loyal Opposition." For centuries, Joktan has exemplified and promoted his Word with skill and fervor. Though the Word had been sought by Factions, Joktan was able to smooth relations as much as one can with Factioneers, displaying the same knack for running a system within Hell's bizarre collection of tempers and temperaments as he had in the early days. Today several even report to him, helping him carry out his work. This work consists of roughly three major parts, though indeed Joktan considers his "work" to include all of Hell. First, Joktan works to enshrine the notion of the Loyal Opposition in human systems, in such forms as the adversarial legal system, the muckraking newspaper, and the gadfly protester. Where there is not opposition, he will create it, stirring up as much unrest as he can. He often uses demons of Factions for this purpose. Second, Joktan is a major part of Hell's internal propaganda machine, especially when dealing with Habbalah. He is well-known, and Habbalah having their own doubts may come to see him (usually for a comfortable, enlightening interview, followed by exruciating investigation by the Game). Lastly, Joktan performs the duties of a Word-bound demon of the Game, primarily keeping an eye on fellow Gamesters. When the Catholic Church instituted a formal position whose duties were to seek out and raise every possible objection to the canonization of someone for sainthood, Joktan promptly took credit, also taking the name of the position as an additional title: "Promotor Fidei," Promoter of the Faith. This gained the notice of Uriel and later Laurence. Fortunately for Joktan, perhaps, he hasn't made it onto Laurence's "hit list" yet, nor the professional attentions of the Order of the Eternal Sword, primarily because they don't believe his claim. His primary enemy in Heaven is actually Mihr, Dominic's Angel of Mercy, who sees in Joktan's position a demonic mockery of her own. - ----- "Why do we bother testing humanity, angels, demons, ourselves? Does God not know of what mettle we are? Of course He does. We are His hands, His eyes, His tools in this world. He will bring all things to light and judge them there, and he will do so by whatever means He desires, including us. This is His perfect justice, expressed in our kind more perfectly than in any other being, muddled human, lower angel, broken demon. Therefore do not restrain yourselves in any way from seeking the rhythm which is uniquely yours, for to do so is to attempt to thwart His will in the Universe, and you will be scourged, and His object will be completed regardless when imperfection is exposed, in you. "Then, beware, for while we *know* our divine mandate, we take on faith no article but this: that imperfection must be excised." **Joktan, "The Crisis of Faith" - ----- Today, you will find Joktan whispering in the ear of the loyal lieutenant, or putting doubt in the mind of the zealous crusader. He ensures that there will always be someone ready to test the mettle of a new idea. He sees to it that, no matter how impossible it may seem for someone rational to accept a horror or a malfeasance, there is always someone willing to support and defend it -- philosohpically, or in literal legal terms. The nickname for the Promotor Fidei, after all, has even made its way into popular culture. It is better known as "The Devil's Advocate." William ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:44:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Just when you thought... - --- EDG wrote: > Inspired, oddly enough, by Kim's anomalocaris > Cherub. Way cool, but a question from the AA looking over my shoulder: just what would a demon be doing around the Great Barrier Reef in the first place? I mean, there must be a reason, otherwise Agrathin wouldn't be having his negative opinion reinforced on a regular basis... (pause) There's a seed there, I just know it.* :) Moe *Or seeds, even. Everyone, don't be shy about coming up with them. Come on in; the water's fine... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Saw Patton last night... ...and it really, really, _really_ should be added to the 2nd Edition IN Main Book Filmography. (pause) No, really. :) Moe Patton Saint of War Corporeal Forces: 3 Strength: 5 Agility: 7 Ethereal Forces: 3 Intelligence: 6 Precision: 6 Celestial Forces: 4 Will: 10 Perception: 6 Skills: Artistry/2 (poetry), Dodge/6, Driving/4, Emote/3, Fighting/4, Knowledge (History/3, Military History/6, Strategy/6), Languages (French/4, the usual plethora/3), Large Weapons (axe/4, saber/5), Ranged Weapons (revolver/4, rifle/4, tank gun/4), Riding/6 (horse), Savoir-Faire/3, Small Weapon/3 (Knife), Tactics/6 Songs: Battle (All/3), Shields (All/3), Tongues (Ethereal/4, Celestial/3), War (All/4) Attunements: Blessed, Proficiency (saber), All of Michael's Servitor Attunements Oh, like this is a surprise, or something. I mean, he practically came out and admitted it, the last time that he was on Earth. Let's look at the evidence, shall we? Pious, profane (often at the same time), open about his past lives, absolutely fearless, anachronistic in his personal sense of honor, insanely good at his chosen profession, an utter inability to suffer any kind of coward or fool, openly in love with the very idea of honest warfare - gee, that sounds really, really diagnostic. How Hell missed this one for so long is a mystery: probably a combination of internecine fighting and the logical enough belief that not even Michael would put someone this obvious into play. To be fair, Patton doesn't get to play on Earth often - - and he's gotten fewer chances to do so in the last few centuries. The fact that he got repeat tours of duty on the corporeal plane in the first place was due primarily to the above skill set and personality profile: Michael has long established that the Saint was, frankly, too damn good to be kept on the shelf for too long. Unfortunately, there's that minor little problem with not suffering fools gladly: while this is not necessarily considered to be a problem by the Archangel of War (how could it be a problem? Michael's just the same way, after all), not everybody agrees - and some of those disagreeing are quite powerful indeed. Patton thus does not get out of Heaven nearly as much as he'd like to. So, why does he get out at all? Simple: Michael sometimes gets a funny little feeling that something big that involves his Word will go down fairly soon, and when that happens Michael absolutely hates not being able to stack the deck beforehand. When that happens, out go the Saints - and it's positively amazing how many of them 'grow up' just in time to affect major battles, campaigns or wars. Check out Patton's World War II campaigns for some stellar examples of what form that influence takes (and even more stellar examples of what kind of trouble he routinely gets himself into lately). Since that campaign, Patton has stayed in Heaven: somebody's got to help train Michael's armored divisions, after all. Every attempt of his to get into corporeal combat again has been squelched, much to his extreme annoyance: as just one example, during the Yom Kippur War the Saint had to be physically restrained from 'requisitioning' a tank from the motor pool and driving it through the closest Tether to Israel. He still fumes about that. It's only recently that Patton's even remotely settled down about the subject, and that's only because Michael himself personally promised the Saint that he'll get one more extended mission. So, if celestials encounter him on Earth, it might just be because the Archangel of War is certain this time that the Big One's coming up... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 05:30:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Saw Patton last night... Heh. From what I know of Patton, he'd be gratified that somebody finally understood his direct line to God. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:37:53 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. So, I just got Nobilis last night. I strongly recommend folks find someone to buy a copy and then borrow it ;) One of the ideas presented therein is that non-rationlizable miracles can drive normal folks insane- either temporarily or (in extreme cases or repeated exposure) permanently. Such effects don't impact the supernatural types, or those directly bound. I like this idea, personally. It seems a better way to encourage subtlty than simple declarations of 'doom befalls Celestials who act too openly!' because God Said So/Lucifier Likes Subtle. For one, even the least caring-about-humanity demon (or angel) is painting a big neon sign right over their area if they start driving groups of normals mad... Anywho. It could make a neat variation in the standard world if mortals who see a Celestial Form, or very obvious miracles or attunments (Flight, NC, hands-wreathed in green flames, etc) which basically can't be rationalized drives normal humans mad. Normal humans, in this case, is anyone without the potential for a 6th force- even the potential will spare them dementia celestia, although they might still not be in the best mental health afterwards. Or something. :) Just a thought. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:44:59 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. > One of the ideas presented therein is that > non-rationlizable miracles can drive normal folks > insane- either temporarily or (in extreme cases or > repeated exposure) permanently. Such effects don't > impact the supernatural types, or those directly > bound. Ooh. This also gives Blandine's Dissonance conditions a much better rationale. Beleth's, too, to a lesser degree. So how different is this incarnation of Nobilis from the one before? I have the small pink hardcover version. - -- Casca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 12:51:14 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. Eric Bertish wrote: > So how different is this incarnation of Nobilis from the one before? I have > the small pink hardcover version. The mechanics are basically the same, as is the cosmology. Mostly, the big edition goes into much more detail and gives many more examples, so now it's actually possible to plan and run a campaign using the rulebook. - -David - -- From too much love of living, From hope and fear set free, We thank with brief thanksgiving Whatever gods may be That no man lives for ever; That dead men rise up never; That even the weariest river Winds somewhere safe to sea. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:52:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. - --- W S wrote: > One of the ideas presented therein is that > non-rationlizable miracles can drive normal folks > insane- either temporarily or (in extreme cases or > repeated exposure) permanently. [snip] > I like this idea, personally. It seems a better way > to encourage subtlty than simple declarations of 'doom > befalls Celestials who act too openly!' because God > Said So/Lucifier Likes Subtle. It works OK if you don't have Aballam in your game -- driving mortals mad is one of his goals. And as for attracting angelic attention, well, angels aren't immune to Madness' Attunements. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Be aware that most people are operating on a highly condensed version of the 10 Commandments... the part about murder." -- Mark Bricklin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 13:10:50 -0500 From: "Gregg Forge" Subject: Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns >Upon learning that dragons will never ever exist in the canon In Nomine >game (EPG discussion board), I have posted this tid-bit to my Ideal In >Nomine page: <¡El Snippo!> Well said. VERY well said, and something I -mostly- agree with. Kamika-Z, who would think that there's the rare hardier uni... _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:46:04 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. True. But I don't think Abby is cannon. Course, neither is this. But, if you want the two to work together, just say that dementia celestia is distinctly seperate and non-recreatable by Aballam's Madness, and that it does him no good- it's a madness from outside the Symphony, and so doesn't help his Word. It actually indirectly harms it, since suffers from demetia are incapable of going further insane. Whee, madness. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:04:05 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Personally, I preferred Moe's unicorns. It was instructive to note that the Purity Crusade's grave sin was killing the innocent along with the guilty (1)... as opposed to just killing the innocent. - -- Chuckg (1) Which is still unforgivable, natch. However, the converse is also true - -- just because you were whacked by Uriel or his raiding parties, that doesn't automatically mean you were a saint. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:14:48 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Of course the original legends of unicorns didn't depict them as pure white magical ponies who loved little girls, but nasty, evil beasts who _deserved_ to be killed..... Our modern notions of unicorns, like many of the rest of our pop-culture fairy tales, were primarily Victorian inventions, with little resemblance to the original medieval versions. - -David Charles Glasgow wrote: > Personally, I preferred Moe's unicorns. It was instructive to note that > the Purity Crusade's grave sin was killing the innocent along with the > guilty (1)... as opposed to just killing the innocent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:36:46 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns *comes back from setting his bowl of milk outside* No idea what you're talking about. Ladeda... :) Although I would be curious- can anyone provide some references to unicorns as being Evil, Viscious Horned Beasts of Sex and Violence? And don't refer me to 'the original stories', as I've read a fair number and unicorns never came up. At least refer me to a specific tale- as well as the source for said tale, if possible. But, as far as I can recall, Unicorns have a fair bit of history as being fairly pure critters- up to dark ages alchemy, in the least- in which the alicorn (the horn of a unicorn) was pure gold or silver, and soverign to almost all posions and disease. Mind, I haven't studied dark ages alchemy in some time or any depth. :) And, just once, can someone find SOMETHING from our historical/fairy cultured stories that hasn't been horribly twisted from the original form? Just a personal request, from the bit of my head that says 'all absolutes are lies!' __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:37:26 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Whenever the nature of unicorns is discussed, I get a vivid mental image of that scene in Legend where the girl goes out into the river to touch the unicorn. Then I picture the unicorn looking up, and savagely attacking her. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:50:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Dragons and Unicorns W S wrote: > Although I would be curious- can anyone provide some > references to unicorns as being Evil, Viscious Horned > Beasts of Sex and Violence? And don't refer me to > 'the original stories', as I've read a fair number and > unicorns never came up. At least refer me to a > specific tale- as well as the source for said tale, if > possible. I don't have a direct Evil Unicorn reference, but there is an on-line version of Jorge Luis Borges' "Book of Imaginary Beings" with a unicorn entry at: http://www.hum.aau.dk/romansk/borges/vakalo/zf/html/the_unicorn.html None of the sources cited makes the unicorn sound particularly viscious, though it has been used to represent evil allegorically. (But then it has also represented Jesus and the Holy Ghost.) The earliest sources (Ctesias and Pliny) merely give "natural history" descriptions of it as a fierce beast. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:25:06 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. >So, I just got Nobilis last night. I strongly >recommend folks find someone to buy a copy and then >borrow it ;) I've had one for two weeks, for a PBEM, and I second this recommendation. However, both Shedim and Kyriotates already impact on humans' sanity; and as for other effects, I prefer to assume that humans who see something really strange either don't believe it, think it's an optical illusion, block it out of their memory -- or start investigating what happened. Especially if such things occur more than once in their experience. (Once is accident, twice is coincidence, three times ...) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 20:01:15 -0400 From: Michael Nutt Subject: Re: IN> Just when you thought... > Way cool, but a question from the AA looking over my > shoulder: just what would a demon be doing around the > Great Barrier Reef in the first place? I mean, there > must be a reason, otherwise Agrathin wouldn't be > having his negative opinion reinforced on a regular > basis... > > (pause) > > There's a seed there, I just know it.* :) Well, here are the things that immediately come to mind... 1. Chomping divers, either for the rush of the slaughter (Samingans), or to inspire terror in those who don't get attcked personally (Beleth). 2. Figuring out how to turn such a wonder of natural beauty into an enormous revenue-generating, soul-destroying tourist trap (Mammon, Nybbas, Valefor). 3. Scarfing up various reef denizens to illegally resell to collectors for scads of money (Mammon). 4. Tearing things up for the thrill of seeing the reef die forever (Belial, Saminga). 5. Searching for Haagenti's latest seafood craving (Haagenti). 6. Plundering shipwrecks (Valefor). 7. Testing the latest Technological wonders to create amphibious scouts, miners, or troops (Vapula). I have trouble coming up with ideas for Andrealphus, Asmodeus, Baal, Kobal, Kronos, Lilith, and Malphas... but with all these other demons who might be swimming about, second-order missions shouldn't be hard to come up with. - -- Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:54:45 -0400 From: EDG Subject: IN> Vessels out of Limbo So here's a question for you folks. I don't have Heaven & Hell, where it talks about Limbo and how to get out of it. So I'm not sure I've got these rules correct in my head... but here goes. A celestial in Limbo regains 1 Essence per day. A vessel, built in limbo, costs 15 Essence * the level of the vessel * the number of Forces the thing that usually inhabits that kind of body has. (A rat would usually have 1 Force; a human would usually have 5.) What kind of a creature would have 600 million Forces? I ask because after 150 million years, a celestial in Limbo would accumulate 54,750,000,000 Essence. Dividing by 15 (per level per Force), and then again by 6 (maximum vessel level), leaves a vessel/6 of a creature that naturally has 608,333,333 Forces. Now, it's understood that the angel who'll stay in Limbo, fuming and plotting his revenge against the Archangelic masters who cast him out, for 150 million years is a rare angel indeed. But it could happen. And when he gets out... ...star dragons, anyone? - -EDG ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2691 ********************************