in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 2 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2692 In this digest: Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo Re: IN> A Song for Nybbas Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo IN> New Heresy Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> Just when you thought... Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> New Heresy IN> The Ruiners RE: IN> Dragons and Unicorns Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> Just when you thought... Re: IN> The Ruiners Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> The Ruiners IN> Artefact for Nybaas and Andre Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> New Heresy Re: IN> The Ruiners Re: IN> The Ruiners RE: IN> The Ruiners Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo Re: IN> The Ruiners Re: IN> The Ruiners Re: IN> The Ruiners Re: IN> Artefact for Nybaas and Andre RE: IN> The Ruiners IN> Non-canon Plot seed.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:03:13 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo A few problems- 1) It's 1 essence a week. Although I think the cost is also a bit cheaper... 2) Every X period of time, the Celestial risks loosing all their Essence. 3) Every Y period of time, the Celestial has to resist simply snapping and spending whatever essence they have to get out- even if it means taking a crippled, three legged dog. However, if you had a VERY old celestial, with a Will of 12, who never, never NEVER got a negative intervention... Ya'know, I wonder what actually happened to Gebbelith. I mean, sure, he /claims/ he was trapped in the Dagger... but are you gonna trust Secrets? *In the last days of the world- when mighty Gebbelith again roams the Earth* __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 00:11:39 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> A Song for Nybbas I loved this. And if someone could teach me the song, I have a Need/6 waiting right here.... - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 00:14:01 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo > > However, if you had a VERY old celestial, with a Will > of 12, who never, never NEVER got a negative > intervention... Now's a good time for me to mention The Limbo Heresy: What if the Symphony is God's *vessel*? - -- Casca "Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing." --Margaret Chittenden, writer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:38:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> New Heresy http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/heretics/LaurenceH.htm It's still very much a rough draft, but I wanted commentary anyway, so _that's_ all right, then. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/13/02(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:53:15 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice Lane" To: "IN List" Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:38 PM Subject: IN> New Heresy > http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/heretics/LaurenceH.htm > > It's still very much a rough draft, but I wanted > commentary anyway, so _that's_ all right, then. :) My first reaction -- if you want a Bright High-Contrast campaign where angels really act like angels, and you don't mind playing "kick-the-canon" (1) to get there, this is the first change any DM should make. Well done. Almost *too* well done, but well done. - -- Chuckg (1) Such a delightfully pithy turn of phrase. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:07:09 -0700 From: edenesque@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Just when you thought... I have trouble coming up with ideas for Andrealphus, Asmodeus, Baal, Kobal, Kronos, Lilith, and Malphas... but with all these other demons who might be swimming about, second-order missions shouldn't be hard to come up with.<<< Constructing a high-priced hotel/brothel using the Reef as a scenic background for self-indulgence (Andrealphus, possibly Mammon and/or Nybbas). Blowing it up because it would be cool and a symbol of defiance to the envriomentalists, the Australian government, and the more nature-minded Archangels (Jordi and Novalis), all at the same time. Bonus points if the destruction is blamed on the radical enviromentalists and the Australian government cracks down, prompting calls for the overthrow of the tyrants (Furfur/possibly Lilith or Malphas). A good, secluded spot for clandestine meetings and deals (Alaemon and Fleurity). Making sure that secret deals don't go down without the Game's notice (Asmodeus). Destroying the Reef so that the sealife will have nowhere to live (Magog, Saminga, Baal on a dull afternoon maybe). Spying on/converting people (Kronos, because you never know where or when someone will be in the right place and circumstances to meet their Fate). Setting up a demon with a sea monster vessel to patrol the reef, getting gullible tourists to part with hard-earned cash to see it, and then having the monster devour the tourists (Haagenti, Saminga, possibly Kobal, but it seems a little crude for him). ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:20:41 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy I think I like this version a lot. He's more flexible and in some ways a bit better suited for the task as Commander. Besides, nothing like watching canon wince every once in a while. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 00:35:58 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy From: "Maurice Lane" > > It's still very much a rough draft, but I wanted > commentary anyway, so _that's_ all right, then. :) Interesting take on it, Moe. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 02:30:23 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy >http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/heretics/LaurenceH.htm > >It's still very much a rough draft, but I wanted >commentary anyway, so _that's_ all right, then. :) ...this is giving me Ideas (TM) for a noncanon setting I'm working on. Mind if I fold-spindle-mutilate a bit? ^^ I *like* this. It's *almost* as strange and unnerving as my unfinished 'Dominic the Mercurian' idea... ...ooooh, better spin on that. Dominic *or* Laurence... *Bright Lilim* Archangel. And yes, Lilith is unchanged. Heh heh heh... ^^ ~S.D. Ryukage ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "So you were an artist. Big deal! Elvis was an artist. But that didn't stop him from volunteering for the military in time of service. And that's why he is The King. And you're a schmuck." Serendipity the Muse, 'Dogma' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:59:44 -0700 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: IN> The Ruiners In the early 1980s, a pre school had come under legal investigation. The mother of one of the children there had filed charges of child molestation and abuse against the staff. The horrible nature of the crime led to media frenzy. Christopher's emotional state as he read these reports was quite dangerous. Child molesters who get the attention of the Archangel of Children have a lifespan measured in milliseconds. He sent a Seraph and an Elohite in Roles as legal aids for the accused. They would be able to gather more information on them to assist in the final kill. The report came back within thirty minutes of the initial meeting and shocked Christopher as it came in; all three of the accused were completely innocent of the charges. The interview had revealed that the woman who had filed the complaint was an alcoholic and a schizophrenic who had been detached from reality for many years. To make things worse, many children were being coerced into giving false statements about abuse that had never happened. The Archangel of Children fought back as best as he could; he sent in Soldiers that were child psychologists to counter the damage that was being done to the children, he rallied his angels to get the facts out and clear the names of the day care workers. But it was futile at this point. What had begun with humans was now in the hands of the combined forces of Media and Fate. Nybbas had a spectacular opportunity to get long running news story and Kronos latched onto a rare chance to seal several Fates at once. By the time the case was over, the accused were destitute, the accuser had died from alcohol poisoning and dozens of children were mentally scarred. Christopher was enraged beyond reason once things had settled. He stormed out of his playhouse and many in Heaven feared that he was on the edge of a Fall. He flew to the one being that could help him make sense of all of this. Michael took him into the Groves and let the Archangel of Children say what was on his mind. He listened silently to what Christopher was feeling and thinking about what had happened. When he was done, the First Seraph spoke bluntly about what went wrong. Christopher had been too quick to judge and hasty to believe that his charges were in danger. Devotion to a ward was the lifeblood of a Cherub, but he had gone too far. The Archangel of Children had also forgotten that Hell would fight viciously on any battlefield without regard to who got hurt. The Archangel of War counseled Christopher to remember the pain of this defeat and figure out a way to turn it back on Hell ten fold. Christopher remained silent for a long time after Michael had spoken. The power of the Truth behind his statements broke through his murderous state and caused him to reflect. He suddenly had inspiration about how to fight back in such a way that Hell would tread lightly around him. The Ruiners were born from that moment. The Ruiners are a group of Christopher's angels that are dedicated to taking out Hellsworn and demons in a very unconventional manner. They use the hysteria caused by abuse of children against their targets. Once the Ruiners have chosen a Soldier of Hell or a demon, very few things will save them. The methods used are quite varied and used for the greatest shock value. In one recorded instance, a Malakite with a Body Bag and the Vessel of a nine year old girl arranged to have the girl's body found in a demon's house while the other Vessel, as an "innocent passerby", phoned the police about it. Another case caused the suicide of a Hellsworn when computer records showed "proof" that he was a member of a child pornography ring. The Ruiners show no mercy towards their victims. They make sure that the media finds out about these "crimes" and then step back to watch the end results. They destroy Roles, ruin lives and then cheerfully Soul Kill the remains. Membership in The Ruiners is primarily Elohim and Malakim as they are the angels most capable of handling some of the more distasteful aspects of this work. Because what they do involves actively creating an untruth, Seraphim are discouraged from joining but they are welcome in support roles with Cherubim and Ofanim. Mercurians are used to gather information on the target, but tend to stay out of any situations that could lead to violence against Hellsworn humans. Kyriotates usually make sure that the police or a reporter happens by the area when things get ugly for the target. The existence of The Ruiners is more than a little controversial with Heaven. The tactics they use have brought them under close scrutiny by the Servitors of Judgment. Christopher responded by allowing Dominic's angels access to their information and the right for them to stop a mission as long as the reasons are explained. To date, only one target was saved but only so The Game could destroy him. Servitors of The Media have a particular loathing of The Ruiners; although they provide good news stories, they are using *their* tactics against Hell. As for Christopher, he watches the actions of The Ruiners and knows that he has learned a harsh lesson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:59:56 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Dragons and Unicorns - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Williby [mailto:parksideninja@hotmail.com] Whenever the nature of unicorns is discussed, I get a vivid mental image of that scene in Legend where the girl goes out into the river to touch the unicorn. Then I picture the unicorn looking up, and savagely attacking her. _______________________________________________________________ I always remember the part of "The Once and Future King" where the younger brothers of the Orkney Clan want to impress their mother. They talk a chambermaid into helping them hunt for a Unicorn. they kill it, behead it, and bring it to show her at breakfast. Which then reminds me of "The Godfather" and my mental references spiral downwards from there. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:26:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo - --- EDG wrote: > What kind of a creature would have 600 million Forces? > > I ask because after 150 million years, a celestial in > Limbo would > accumulate 54,750,000,000 Essence. Dividing by 15 (per > level per Force), > and then again by 6 (maximum vessel level), leaves a > vessel/6 of a creature > that naturally has 608,333,333 Forces. Which would be an incredibly buff Vessel indeed -- if the Celestial could stay in Limbo that long without a) going insane or b) failing the Will roll and taking a Vessel -- any Vessel -- just to get out. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff." -- Frank Zappa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:29:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo - --- Eric Bertish wrote: > Now's a good time for me to mention The Limbo Heresy: > > What if the Symphony is God's *vessel*? That makes Limbo the only thing that is truly outside of God's presence -- which should make it a much scarier place for angels. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff." -- Frank Zappa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:36:15 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine-Nobilis cross thingy idea. At 12:51 PM -0500 7/1/02, David Edelstein wrote: >Eric Bertish wrote: >>So how different is this incarnation of Nobilis from the one before? I have >>the small pink hardcover version. > >The mechanics are basically the same, as is the cosmology. Mostly, >the big edition goes into much more detail and gives many more >examples, so now it's actually possible to plan and run a campaign >using the rulebook. They also repaired a few things, here and there. Most notably the injury system (which now... well, makes sense. ) Plus, the book itself is just gorgeous. If a touch unwieldy. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Mercurian of Revelation (candidate for the Word of Obscurity) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:42:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy Okaaaaay... Khalid as a Bright Lilim? I'm really looking forward to this. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff." -- Frank Zappa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:45:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Just when you thought... Y'know, it occurs to me that Haagenti may already have agents on the Great Barrier Reef. At least some of those Crown-of-Thorns starfish may be Gluttons in animal Vessels. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff." -- Frank Zappa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:51:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Ruiners [shudder] This is the darkest portrayal of Christopher that I've seen to date. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff." -- Frank Zappa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:02:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Unni Solaas Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Michael Walton wrote: > Okaaaaay... Khalid as a Bright Lilim? I'm really looking > forward to this. It's already there.:) Check out the heretics link on Moe's website! - -- Stercus, stercus, stercus, moriturus sum! Unni Solaas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 09:43:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy Charles Glasgow wrote: > My first reaction -- if you want a Bright High-Contrast campaign where > angels really act like angels, and you don't mind playing "kick-the- > canon" (1) to get there, this is the first change any DM should make. Seconded. I have often felt that the default In Nomine setting is "unrealistically" dark -- unrealistic if you really believe in heaven and angels, which, after all, some of us do. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 13:58:01 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy >From: Earl Wajenberg >Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy >Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 09:43:56 -0500 [snip] >Seconded. I have often felt that the default In Nomine setting is >"unrealistically" dark -- unrealistic if you really believe in >heaven and angels, which, after all, some of us do. Alternatively, if you want to make only a minor tweak instead of playing kick-the-canon, you can try for much of the same effect just by giving Laurence a new Vow. And call *that* "Laurence's Last Lesson". :-) As to the exact phrasing of the Vow, I'll leave that up to those who are better with words than I am. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:51:23 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Ruiners Cameron McCurry wrote: > Christopher's emotional state as he read these reports was quite dangerous. > Child molesters who get the attention of the Archangel of Children have a > lifespan measured in milliseconds. You know, this is the "obvious" reaction you'd expect from the Archangel of Children, but I don't think it's actually how Christopher _would_ react. "Child-molester-evil-nasty-kill-KILL!" is a very human reaction, but it's purely emotional. Christopher's priority is protecting children, not exacting vengeance. He'd be aware that (a) a lot of molesters were molested themselves as children, and (b) killing a child's molester will rarely do the child any good and may just add to the child's trauma (especially if it's a relative, which it often is). For serial predators, I can certainly see Malakim of Children being dispatched to end the threat. But I would hope the Archangel of Children has better ideas for ending child abuse than just splattering the abusers because that will make HIM feel better. > The methods used are quite varied and used for the greatest shock value. In > one recorded instance, a Malakite with a Body Bag and the Vessel of a nine > year old girl arranged to have the girl's body found in a demon's house while > the other Vessel, as an "innocent passerby", phoned the police about it. > Another case caused the suicide of a Hellsworn when computer records showed > "proof" that he was a member of a child pornography ring. I really don't think the Archangel of Children would do this. First of all, it's a VERY non-angelic tactic. And since he's not naturally adept at subterfuge, it's too likely it would backfire on him. Once Hell figures out he's doing this, it would be a pretty simple matter for a more wily Prince (like Asmodeus or Nybbas) to expose one of these "fake" molestations and use it to weaken the credibility of other abuse allegations. Then there is the fact that, as far as I can tell, the Ruiners aren't actually protecting children. They are going after various demons and Hellsworn targets of opportunity and _using_ children (or "fake" children) to bring them down. In the process turning the world into a scarier place for children by increasing the number of abuse stories, in this case by adding false ones. How does this further the Word of Children? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:48:00 +0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> Artefact for Nybaas and Andre Ok, if your under 16 dont read any further thankyou. If your a GM in a Dark/Bleak game, keep reading. Note, this may shock, offend or ammuse people. You have been *ahem* warned. (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) (spoiler space) Mary Lou sat there, on the chiar in the office. The big big office. She felt so small. Small, insecure and ugly is how she felt. She looked around the office, at all the pictures of starlets and stars on the wall, at all the videos and dvd's bearing peoples names on them. She ran things through her mind once more. "i want to be a model, im pretty, i got the bust for it and the lack of hips for it. Im not blonde, but thats ok, hair dye will sort all of that out. And i wrote a letter to the talent agency, who interviewed me, then sent me here, saying this was a good place to get noticed. Well, im here, the secratary let me in, she was beautiful. Big boobs, big lips and so blond it was like sunlight. I was told to wait, so im waiting... i know all about the storyies tat peopel say about this business, but i only want to be a dancer, or just a stage extra, not a full blown star, well maybe oneday.." It was then that the door opened and a slightly overweight man, in perhaps his middle fourties walked in, mug of coffee in hand. She looked him over, he was balding too she noticed, but it was pulled tightly back in to a small pony tail. She felt naked under his breif gaze. "ah, mary lou... come get comfy on the couch, i hear you want to be a star..." ++++++++++++++ Casting Couch This artefact only works on humans, just 5 force humans, nothing else. For every 5 minutes spent on the couch, or every 10 minutes within the couches level in yards (or meters), the victim must make a willpower check, or temporarily loose 1 willpower for half an hour. This effect is cumulative, so 10 mins makes the loss last for 1 hour and so forth. Howerver, the Artefact will only work on humans who willingly sit on (or near) the couch (a large leather affair). It basically opens thier minds to more extrovert/hedonistic/sadistic ideas, biut does this throughthe weakening of the will. Each level of the artefact reduces the targets willpower roll by 1 +++++++++++++ Nigel wasnt so bad she thought after a while, all he wanted to do was just chat about her background, to learn about her. He wanted to know how she planned to get in to starbiz, what she wanted to acheive, what sort of rumours she'd heard about the biz. As she was in to her secound cup of coffee, and nigel in to his third, she found herself very comfy on the sofa, she felt good having some one actually concerned for her well being in the biz. Nigel even offered to let her shoot her promo video in the office, that way every one who needed to see what a star she was would see what a star she was. When Nigel was spent, they both collapsed on the sofa, she licked her lips clean as he buckled his trousers up, and wondered why so many people had heard bad rumors about the couch, it wasnt at all bad to her... "well babe, ill get my people to call you, you were great, i'll make you a star..." With that she found herself being scooted out of the office. Only one thing filled her mind. "Im Gonna Be A Star!!!" ++++++++++++++++++++ *is surprised it wasnt done sooner* TY 2 FS for making me write this. ;) Cas *Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.* In Nomine @ http://www.angelfire.com/goth/psyber/i-n.html In Nomine yahoo @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inveritas ADnD forum @ http://www.drunkendwarfinn.co.uk ADnD stuff @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADandD_Stuff _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:02:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Pedersen Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy Very cool version of Laurence. (Of course, considering the source :-)...) One question, though. It says he participated in the Purity Crusade, just as in canon. Wouldn't that have left him rather dissonance-ridden? As I understand it, the Mercurian dissonance condition is violence against anything _except_ demons, not violence against only humans. This, to me, has always indicated that violence against ethereals, undead, and other non-demons was dissonant for Mercurians. Did Uriel's Mercurian attunement remove this problem? Or did Uriel just take dissonance from his Mercurians as soon as they got it? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:12:24 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> New Heresy Kelly Pedersen wrote: > > Very cool version of Laurence. (Of course, considering > the source :-)...) > One question, though. It says he participated in the > Purity Crusade, just as in canon. Wouldn't that have > left him rather dissonance-ridden? As I understand it, > the Mercurian dissonance condition is violence against > anything _except_ demons, not violence against only > humans. No. It's just humans. The original printing of IN was vaguer than that (vague, or explicitly said "anything except demons"--I can't remember which offhand), but that was erratad. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:38:48 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> The Ruiners > You know, this is the "obvious" reaction you'd expect from the Archangel > of Children, but I don't think it's actually how Christopher _would_ > react. "Child-molester-evil-nasty-kill-KILL!" is a very human reaction, > but it's purely emotional. Depends on who you talk to. Some would rationalize that since a child molester is incurable and a danger to others, removing them permanently would be the most humane thing to do. > But I would hope the Archangel of Children has better ideas for ending child > abuse than just splattering the abusers because that will make HIM feel better. Absolutely. But as a former Servitor of Stone, I would imagine him having no problem with more violent solutions. > First of all, it's a VERY non-angelic tactic. Some Elohim would have no problems in using tactics that would cause some demons to squirm. And darker campaigns would definitely see more underhanded tactics being used against the enemy. The idea behind them was based on an actual case from the early 80s where some children were coerced into giving false statements just to shore up a case. Perhaps the tactics used are questionable, but that was why I submitted the idea. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:37:17 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> The Ruiners Cameron McCurry wrote: > Depends on who you talk to. Some would rationalize that since a child molester > is incurable and a danger to others, removing them permanently would be the most > humane thing to do. That would be a pretty thin rationalization, since it assumes a lot of things that aren't necessarily true. And it would be a very human rationalization, rather than an angelic one. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:41:20 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> The Ruiners > You know, this is the "obvious" reaction you'd expect from the Archangel > of Children, but I don't think it's actually how Christopher _would_ > react. "Child-molester-evil-nasty-kill-KILL!" is a very human reaction, > but it's purely emotional. ** ** While I find the idea of Ruiners fairly rehensible, I will point out that they were presented as a "dark campaign" idea of Christopher. I don't think Christopher would resort to such tactics or even like it much if another AA in an attempt to assist Christopher's word did anything like them, but it would certainly make a good twisted version of him. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:17:28 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Vessels out of Limbo At 09:03 PM 7/1/02 -0700, you wrote: >A few problems- As I said, I don't have _Heaven & Hell_, so I expected that these things would crop up. As such, *I* don't necessarily call them problems: >1) It's 1 essence a week. Although I think the cost >is also a bit cheaper... Could be. That's just what I happen to remember. And at 1/week, that's still a little shy of 87 million Forces. >2) Every X period of time, the Celestial risks loosing >all their Essence. I don't see this as a problem. Sure, it *could* happen - but the initial post postulates that it *hasn't*. >3) Every Y period of time, the Celestial has to resist >simply snapping and spending whatever essence they >have to get out- even if it means taking a crippled, >three legged dog. Which is why the angel in question has a high will. Again, the initial post postulates that this *hasn't* happened. >However, if you had a VERY old celestial, with a Will >of 12, who never, never NEVER got a negative >intervention... a) Yes, that's the premise. b) Sure, why not? c) Well, consider that negative Interventions have only been *around* for an amazingly tiny fraction of the time he's been in Limbo (on the order of 0.0134%), IIRC. Even if he rolled one at the *first possible opportunity*, that's still 149,980,000 years in Limbo, give or take a few millennia. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 21:33:39 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> The Ruiners > > You know, this is the "obvious" reaction you'd expect from the Archangel > > of Children, but I don't think it's actually how Christopher _would_ > > react. "Child-molester-evil-nasty-kill-KILL!" is a very human reaction, > > but it's purely emotional. a) Why is "purely emotional" a bad thing for a Cherub (as opposed to an Elohite)? > > But I would hope the Archangel of Children has better ideas for ending >child > > abuse than just splattering the abusers because that will make HIM feel >better. b) Ending child abuse is Christopher's long-term goal. Ending child abusers is his short-term goal. However, progress toward either of these goals will indeed make him feel better (if only because it supports his Word). I don't see the problem. > > First of all, it's a VERY non-angelic tactic. c. Sez who? Certainly not a large segment of the Archangels (generally known as the "War Party," I think.) And almost any angel who doesn't work for a non-combatant angel will administer a Smite when appropriate. As for the sneakiness of the Ruiners, I can see almost any Elohite doing this -- and it sounds exactly like something Michael would come up with. He knows *all* the ways to fight, not just the obvious up-front ones. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:50:14 -0300 From: "vez o'rama" Subject: Re: IN> The Ruiners >From: "Janet Anderson" >c. Sez who? Certainly not a large segment of the Archangels (generally >known as the "War Party," I think.) And almost any angel who doesn't work >for a non-combatant angel will administer a Smite when appropriate. As for >the sneakiness of the Ruiners, I can see almost any Elohite doing this -- >and it sounds exactly like something Michael would come up with. He knows >*all* the ways to fight, not just the obvious up-front ones. > >Janet Anderson Michael? The Seraph? Falsifying evidence to put away a few hellsworn and demons? I dunno. There are simpler, more blunt ways to deal with hellsworn and demons, especially on an individual basis. Emphasis on the 'blunt'. ;) - - vez p.s. Dealing with Child Pornography is quite separate from destroying infernals with Child Pornography. Even in the dark. IMO. :) Perfectly acceptable in a Backwards campaign, however. :) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 21:56:29 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> The Ruiners >Michael? The Seraph? > >Falsifying evidence to put away a few hellsworn and demons? Planting, not falsifying. A subtle but significant difference. > >I dunno. > >There are simpler, more blunt ways to deal with hellsworn and demons, >especially on an individual basis. > >Emphasis on the 'blunt'. ;) Well, that *was* Christopher's first response, and as I said, I don't think it's inappropriate at all ... Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:36:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Artefact for Nybaas and Andre [smacks forehead] After four years working in the entertainment industry, I am so ashamed that I didn't think of this. ===== Michael Walton, #US2002023848 "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff." -- Frank Zappa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:43:08 -0400 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> The Ruiners - -----Original Message----- From: Janet Anderson [mailto:dorigen@hotmail.com] As for the sneakiness of the Ruiners, I can see almost any Elohite doing this -- and it sounds exactly like something Michael would come up with. He knows *all* the ways to fight, not just the obvious up-front ones. Janet Anderson *** *** Except that sometimes how you do something does matter. If Angels indulge in demonic/horrific tactics than the only thing that makes then different from Demons are the colors of their wings. In a dark/bleak/grisly setting, this sort of tactic may make sense. In real world (or approximating) settings, I see this as a quick way to Fall. At some point the tactics used and the reasons they are chosen or not chosen has to count for something. Maybe doing something like this might have a reason to be done once. But overuse of such lying and underhanded tactics means that Hell has already won. Why doesn't Michael fake child molesting evidence to remove politicians he thinks are hindering the War? Because he has to better than that. The War is about human destiny, not using humans as game pieces. My opinion, I guess. But I think that Michael would strongly object to The Ruiners. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:35:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Kanako Otaku Subject: IN> Non-canon Plot seed.... [ KICK THE CANON!!! KICK THE CANON!!! KICK THE CANON!!! ] "Army In The Marches" A *VERY* non-canon plot seed Superiors aren't stupid, well, with the exception of Saminga anyway. Lilith certainly isn't stupid. So it won't be completely impossible if she had *some* sort of back-up plan when she signed up with Hell. After all, she's definitely the only Superior capable of switching sides at a whim (Well, maybe not at a whim, but still pretty easily). Going to Heaven however, is not a good prospect to her. If she should turn Renegade, Novalis is the *only* Archangel she is assured will help her should she do so. She also has an arrangement with the Archangel of Trade for aid should she do so, but that's only two Archangels. The slim chance that Laurence *won't* kill her is only due to the fact that he *might* consider convincing her to switch sides completely may be more honorable. Dominic would also love to jump at the chance to remove her, Michael too, unless Yves says something, which Lilith can't count on. And if Heaven chooses not to help her, Asmodeus, Baal or maybe even the Lightbringer himself *will* kill her. Since she was worshipped by early civilizations as a pagan goddess, she has her fair share of worshippers and has her own territory among the other Pagan gods. While her worship has declined steadily over the centuries, she still has a strong enough power base to hide there. And the Ethereals certainly aren't going to kill her. This would increase her dwindled power in the Far Marches, albeit slightly. Then there is also her dreamscape. She may have the capability to change it, and since neither Blandine nor Beleth can find it, she can proceed doing this unhindered by them. Since she's a human, she can create Ethereals through her dreams. She also has some degree of control over what Ethereals she dreams, so what's stopping her from creating an army of them? Lilith certainly has had enough time to do so. She also knows that many, if not all, of the Ethereals under Beleth don't like their situation. She could easily convince them to join her, as they would work readily for anyone other than Beleth. She may also hav eties to the Grigori, who probably wouldn't mind helping her out if it means getting back at Heaven. So, what i'm thinking is, what if she did have a back-up plan in case she should feel the Need to leave Hell and declare absolute neutrality? Or, decide to offer her serivces to whoever decides to give her the better offer? What if, over the centuries, she has not only been amassing a dormant army to fight for her, either by dreaming them up or they are by-products of the Lilim creation process, but also established alliances with the Grigori and the more powerful Ethereals *and* transformed her dreamscape into some sort of stronghold? To top it all off, she's been doing a few projects to slightly increase the number of people who worship, or at the very least, think she exists? Imagine what kind of damage she could do with a set up like that......... So, if you will, or dare, take a look at this premise......... Asmodeus in sitting in his desk, queitly recording the "re-education" of another Renegade when he hears the sounds of Malphas heading his way, clearly worried. Rare. Malphas then reveals that he has just heard the most insane, yet potentially dangerous rumor in centuries: Lilith's rebelling. At about the same time, Beleth's screaming voice can be heard throughout Hell, shouting that the Ethereals working for her have disappeared and that some of her Servitors have seen Grigori headed for the Far Marches. With Lilith. While Malphas Asmodeus might have dismissed, Beleth's ranting merited Asmodeus' full attention. Eventually, Lucifer himself hears these things and calls the Princes together. Oddly, Lilith's not the only one missing. Valefor is as well. This only reaffirms the suspicion that Valefor *is* Janus, but it also added an extra worry: What if Heaven was in on Lilith's plans? Hell would pretty much be screwed if that was the case. Vapula then reveals that a few months earlier, Lilith collected the Geasa she had on him and asked for his thousands of his best weapons. Baal then recalls that he had recruited a large amount of Lilim, whose contracts had ended all roughly a week before today. The remaining members of the Shal-Mari quad confess that they haven't seen Lilith in a week. Come to think of it, most of the Princes haven't seen any Free Lilim in roughly five days. Nybbas then reveals a tape of Lilith and Eli talking over dinner. All this, as well as Beleth's earlier revelations seem to point to the conclusion that Lilith has switched sides, and she's taken the Free Lilim with her. After several hours of planning and speculation, Asmodeus leaves, under orders from Lucifer himself to find more information on this matter. The Prince of The Game plans to go into a Tether of Justice, intent on calling Dominic. Dominic, apparently, has beaten him to it. He calls on Asmodeus, demanding that he tell him about a few things. Apparently, Gabriel and Janus have vanished from Heaven, and Yves has locked himself up, alone, in his Library. Lilith has also collected all the Geasa she holds over on Jean, in exchange for a state of the art, anti-celestial security system. The two agree that strange things are happening. Blandine has also given reports that her scouts have seen a large mounting of Ethereal activity in the Far Marches. They have also spotted the Grigori, and Eli as well. Whatever's going on there, it's big. Damn BIG. They reluctantly agree to share whatever information they can find, if only secretly. Eventually though, the rumors run rampant, and both sides are worried out of their minds. In the Marches, an army of eerily Lilim-like ( in appearance ) Ehtereals have popped up. They haven't done anything, yet, but their mere presence is alarming both Blandine and Beleth, who have chosen to go ihto an uneasy alliance, to hold off what appears to be an invasion. Of course, this throws in Redemption possiblities for Beleth. What is certain: Lilith and the Free Lilim are gone. The Grigori have gone into the Far Marches. Eli has been sighted near the Far Marches. Janus, Gabriel and Valefor are missing ( Or maybe it's just Janus and Gabriel ). The Ethereals are mounting some sort of attack force ( Blandine and Beleth have both confirmed this ). Heaven and Hell both paranoid about this ( Hell more than usual ). The rumors: Lilith is rebelling and the Grigori, Free Lilim, Ethereals, Eli, Janus, Valefor and Gabriel have joined her in the Far Marches. Lilith is plotting the destruction of both Heaven *and* Hell Eli has been plotting with Lilith ever since he left Heaven ( I like this idea ). The question on every Celestial's mind: What in the name of God is going on in the Far Marches anyway? What the PCs will be trying to do is figure out just *what* is going on in the Far Marches, find their missing Superiors, and if the opportunity presents itself for the angels, *try* to convince Lilith to switch sides and put her new found army to Heaven's use, on the demonice side, the GM chooses if the demons *try* to make either Gabriel or Eli Fall ( they're close enough as it is, mioght as well help them along ). It's highly unlikely that Lilith will be welcomed back by Hell, but the prospect of having the most powerful of the Ethereals, *and* the Grigori in their side might make letting her back in more acceptable, since she's the only one they would trust. Not even Asmodeus is willing to kill Lilith if it would cost a virtual army of allies. Heaven would also want Lilith on their side for that reason, and a few angels might try to talk her into doing that. Maybe Novalis? The question are rampant though. Why did Lilith do this in the first place? Are the Ethereals and Grigori really allied with Lilith? Just why did Gabriel, Janus and Valefor disappear? Was Eli really plotting with Lilith? Are the Ethereals intent on starting a war with the Celestials? Just what are those Lilim-like Ethereals lurking on the enge of the Far Marches? Figuring this all out is the main objective, for both sides. Conversely, you could play as one of the Free Lilim Lilith has taken with her. Since Lilith herself hasn't really told them anything about her plans, ( good luck getting her to do *that* ) she has said that her Daughters should try to take as many of the remianing Lilim as possible to her. She's even offered to remove a geas for every Lilim one of them brings in. Gabriel has been spotted near the Marches, but Lilith hasn't seen her at all. Same goes for Janus and Valefor. Eli on the other hand, *is* in the Far Marches, but hasn't contacted Lilith yet. To add a few more twists, Lucifer has crowned one of the older Free Lilim still in Hell as a Princess, with a Word *highly* similar to Lilith's ( profile coming soon ). While the secretive Djinn Prince of Dark Writing ( profile also coming soon ) is *still* in what was once Lilith's domain in Shal-Mari, he's become even more reclusive, since the other Princes are highly suspicious of him, and most want him dead. He still maintains an almost fanatical faith in Lilith, and refuses to allow her Princess Daughter to take what he deems is still Lilith's domian. If anything, he reasons, that part of Shal-Mari shold go to *him*, not her. Well? What do you think? Told you it's non-canon, probably impossible, but it has potential. I should finish the write-ups for the two new Princes soon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! 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