in_nomine-digest Wednesday, August 7 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2736 In this digest: Re: IN> Revised Mike and Lilith attunements Re: IN> Evil Mike part 4 Re: IN> Revised Mike and Lilith attunements RE: IN> Evil Mike part 4 RE: IN> Evil Mike part 4 IN> A theory on God Re: IN> A theory on God IN> a Happy Endings Contest? Re: IN> a Happy Endings Contest? Re: IN> A theory on God Re: IN> A theory on God RE: IN> Evil Mike part 4 Re: IN> A theory on God Re: IN> A theory on God Re: IN> A theory on God Re: IN> A theory on God Re: IN> A theory on God ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:50:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Revised Mike and Lilith attunements - --- Kanako Otaku wrote: > Djinn: > Djinn in Michael's service are generally bodyguard > Demons. They are automatically attuned to a specific > Demon of War and gain 1 Essence whenever they aid that > Demon in battle. Should the one the Djinn is supposed > to be helping dies, they become dissonant. Should the > Djinn die while trying to protect, or when helping the > Demon, they are unaffected by Trauma. This is better. > Habbalah: > The few Habbalah of War are always paired with Lilim, > as their Band Attunements work well in combination. > Habbalah can, at the cost of 1 Essence and a touch, > use their resonance to give a person a Need to fight > another person. Needs clarification, as in "...a Need (of a level equal to the CD of the Resonance roll) to fight..." > Lilim: > His step Daughters are Michael's most favored Demons. > More often than not, they oversee the supplies that > are given to Demons of War. For 1 Essence they can > add their Celestial Forces to a Geas attempt to make > the Geased aid the Lilim in battle indirectly. This > may be done by providing a weapon, knowledge of a > weakness but never actually fighting. I don't think this needs the Essence cost, myself. > Shedim: > Shedim of War become dissonant whenever they leave the > host's body without engaging it in a battle. They are > also automatically successful in possessing someone in > a battle. I'm not sanguine about the added Dissonance condition, but it's good otherwise. > Knight of The First Strike: > Knights of War can instantly can add an additional 2 > damage to a successful attack, provided that the > target does not know of the Demon's presence before > the attack is actually done and that the target has > equal or less Forces than the Demon. +2 damage seems kinda weak for a Distinction. A bonus of the demon's Celestial Forces is better, IMO. > Captain of War Mongers: > Captains of War are masters at making people start > fighting for no sensible reason. They can sense any > underlying hatred or bitterness towards another person > or group, and with a touch, they can make a person use > that reason to start a conflict. This may be > countered with a Will Roll. This is more like it. 0:> > Baron of Conscription: > For 3 Essence per target, they can make a target fight > a battle for the Demon. The number of targets > however, is limited to the number of the Demon's > Forces on that plane and may only be used on those > within the Demon's line of sight. This may be > countered with a Will Roll. See above. > Dissonance Conditions: > It is dissonant while in Lilith's service to not kill > a number of beings of equivalent 5 Forces or more in > one week. It is also dissonant to allow someone who > is fatally wounded or terminally ill to live. Lilith > greatly respects the souls of the dead and it is > highly dissonant, if not lethal, to soul-kill anyone > other than an Angel. > > Band Attunements: > > Balseraphim: > They can add a +1 to their CD whenever they attempt to > talk someone into commiting suicide or killing someone > else. (Would've been a +2, but I thought that was > rather cheesy) Sounds good to me. I'd limit the bonus to successful attempts, though (otherwise it turns into a penalty). > Djinn: > They can automatically attune to anyone who is > planning to kill, or is in the act of killing someone. I don't see a problem with this, actually. Just needs a clarification as to the replacement for the CD (demon's Corporeal Forces?). > Lilim: > Whenever a Lilim invokes a Geas to have that person > kill, they may add their Celestial Forces to that > Geas. Clarification: to the level of the Geas or (as I suggest) the TN? > Shedim: > They can automatically succeed in possessing someone > who is feeling hesitant to kill another person. > However, they become dissonant whenever they do not > kill the one that the person they possessed was trying > to kill in the first place. (Yes, this sucks. Got any > ideas?) How about, "...succeed in possessing someone who is contemplating or in the act of committing murder." Leave the Dissonance part in though; that's good. > Vampire: > Lilith's version of the Captain. These Demons have > pale vessels, usually well-dressed and are charming. > All have a seduction/5. These Demons gain 1 Essence > or gain regain 1 HP (Their choice) per quarter gallon > of blood they drink. However, they get 1 point of > damage per second they spend in direct sunlight. Ah, yes, that's better. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"There are two things that stand in the way of happy marriages

-- men and women." -- Rev. David Moore

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 21:48:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Kanako Otaku Subject: Re: IN> Evil Mike part 4 Eastern myth. Or I could go western, where if they were really old, they are immune to sunlight. =====

"Pure Evil can't be stopped, why do you even try?"

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:03:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Kanako Otaku Subject: Re: IN> Revised Mike and Lilith attunements Balseraphim: Whenever they use their resonance to start or prolong any form of conflict, even just a shouting battle, they gain 1 Essence. 2 if the battle involved physical combat. They must be a participant in the conflict however, to gain Essence. Djinn: Djinn in Michael's service are generally bodyguard Demons. They are automatically attuned to a specific Demon of War and gain 1 Essence whenever they aid that Demon in battle. Should the one the Djinn is supposed to be helping dies, they become dissonant. Should the Djinn die while trying to protect, or when helping the Demon, they are unaffected by Trauma. Calabim: Destroyers of War are Michael's second favorite Servitors. Most of his Captains are Calabim. Calabim automatically succeed in using their resonance to destroy an opponent's weapon *before* a battle. Habbalah: The few Habbalah of War are always paired with Lilim, as their Band Attunements work well in combination. Habbalah can, at the cost of 1 Essence and a touch, use their resonance to give a person a Need of level equal to the CD of the resonance roll to fight another person. Lilim: His step Daughters are Michael's most favored Demons. More often than not, they oversee the supplies that are given to Demons of War. They can add their Celestial Forces to a Geas attempt to make the Geased aid the Lilim in battle indirectly. This may be done by providing a weapon, knowledge of a weakness but never actually fighting. Shedim: They are automatically successful in possessing someone in a battle. Impudite: Whenever they have hostile forms of physical contact, such as punching, with a person, they can use their resonance to take 1 Essence per contact. Any Essence taken in this manner from one target in excess of the Demon's normal capacity is lost. Servitor Attunements: Strike With Great Vengeance: For 1 Essence per damage taken, they can add that same amount of damage to their next successful attack. This may be done until the Demon no longer has Essence or the target has been successfully hit. For example, an Angel hits the holder of this attunement for 2 damage, for 2 Essence the Demon can add an extra 2 damage to the damage to his next attack until the attack is successful. This may not be used on anyone except the one who dealt the damage to the Demon. Unholy Frenzy: Holders of this attunement can take twice the damage they normally do whenever in battle. However, they lose 1 Essence whenever they take damage beyond their normal capacity. Example, if the Demon has 4 HP, they gain an extra 4 HP, but lose 1 Essence if they take more than 4 hits. Distinctions: Knight of The First Strike: Knights of War can instantly can add damage to a successful attack equal to their Forces on that plane, provided that the target does not know of the Demon's presence before the attack is actually done and that the target has equal or less Forces than the Demon. Captain of War Mongers: Captains of War are masters at making people start fighting for no sensible reason. They can sense any underlying hatred or bitterness towards another person or group, and with a touch, they can make a person use that reason to start a conflict. This may be countered with a Will Roll. Baron of Conscription: For 3 Essence per target, they can make a target fight a battle for the Demon. The number of targets however, is limited to the number of the Demon's Forces on that plane and may only be used on those within the Demon's line of sight. This may be countered with a Will Roll. Basic Rites: - -kill an Angel ( 1 for Corporeal, 2 for Ethereal, 3 for Soul-Death ) - -start a small scale, armed conflict such as a riot - -participate in a violent uprising - -use the weapon of an opponent against them - -kill someone who has surrendered to you Now, for Lilith's... Dissonance Conditions: It is dissonant while in Lilith's service to not kill a number of beings of equivalent 5 Forces or more in one week. It is also dissonant to allow someone who is fatally wounded or terminally ill to live. Lilith greatly respects the souls of the dead and it is highly dissonant, if not lethal, to soul-kill anyone other than an Angel. Band Attunements: Balseraphim: They can add a +1 to their CD whenever they succeed in talking someone into commiting suicide or killing someone else. Djinn: They can automatically attune to anyone who is planning to kill, or is in the act of killing someone. CD is determined by the Demon's corporeal Forces. Calabim: Calabim can, with a touch, instantly cause the destruction of anything artificial that is keeping a person alive. Examples are pacemakers, artificial hearts, iron lungs and the like. Habbalah: They are automatically successful at using their resonance to give someone a reason to kill another. The CD is determined by the Demon's corporeal Forces. Lilim: Whenever a Lilim invokes a Geas to have that person kill, they may add their Celestial Forces to the level of the Geas. Shedim: They can automatically succeed in possessing someone who is contemplating the killing of another or of themsevles. However, they become dissonant whenever they do not kill the one that the person they possessed was trying to kill in the first place. Impudite: Impudites of Death are primarily scavengers. They can take Essence from someone near death as if they were Charmed. Servitor Attunements: Animate Dead: Holders of this attunement can reanimate any corpse within their line of sight for an amount of Essence equal to the amount of Forces it had when still alive. The duration of this effect is equal to the Demon's corporeal Forces. Hands of the Reaper: For 1 Essence and a touch, Demons with this attunement can do 1 point of damage to the one they are touching. Additional Essence causes additional damage. This may be countered by a Will Roll. The target may also take a Will Roll whenever the Demon attempts to add an additional point of damage. The damage appears in the form of decay. Vampire: Lilith's version of the Captain. These Demons have pale vessels, usually well-dressed and are charming. All have a seduction/5. These Demons gain 1 Essence or gain regain 1 HP (Their choice) per quarter gallon of blood they drink. However, Demons get 1 point of damage per second they spend in direct sunlight. Grim Reaper: Her Barons. They gain 1 Essence for every death within the Demon's presence. Essence gained in excess of the Demon's capacity is lost. They are always invisible to all except Seraphim when they remain motionless. They tend to be given vessels with pale appearances, much like someone who has been dead for a few days, and always have a black or purple hood,or some sort of clothing to cover their faces. =====

"Pure Evil can't be stopped, why do you even try?"

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 00:08:03 -0600 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN> Evil Mike part 4 << Eastern myth. Or I could go western, where if they were really old, they are immune to sunlight. >> For the record, There is no mythology, eastern or western, that describes vampires burning in sunlight. The closest thing to such is in Dracula -- the Count is without power in the day, but he is unharmed. The burning- in-sun thing comes from the early silent films, and has been a cinematic tradition from there on. Now, if you define Anne Rice and Bela Lugosi as mythology, that's fine (and, IMO, our modern movies are as valid as any other culture's oral stories), but you might want to specifically say "modern mythology" to avoid confusion. And if anybody can show me actual referances to recognizably vampiric creatures actually combusting in sunlight (as opposed to just being averse to it ala D&D drow) in pre-cinema mythology, I will grant the point. But I've _never_ seen it myself. - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:08:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Kanako Otaku Subject: RE: IN> Evil Mike part 4 Wait a moment while I research on which Chinese myth that was. Or you could try the Philippine verison of the vampiric myth. Basically, the body, waist down is left behind, while the upper body grows wings and starts sucking up blood. The only was to kill it is to expose either half to direct sunlight, or pour salt on the lower half. I'm from the Philippines and I know this myth pretty well. Even if the whole salt thing makes no sense. =====

"If there wasn't evil on every single being on the planet, Hell wouldn't be here."

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:50:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Kanako Otaku Subject: IN> A theory on God I've just been thinking. Heaven professes God is good. Even if it's not that clear, it's an underlying reason, if not *the* reason they do what they do. Also, there is this belief that God is omnipotent. These two statements or beliefs can't work well in the IN universe. Why? Okay. God is an omnipotent force. It (I use "it" since I think God doesn't have a gender) can do what it wants. God, by Heaven's view, is good. But if an omnipotnet bineg is good, evil cannot exist. Since Hell and Lucifer are around, evil exists. So God is either not omnipotent, or he's not good. Now, Lilith thinks God as an absent tyrant. This is wrong too. She thinks God is evil. Wrong. By the same argument as above, God cannot be evil. So, what *is* God's stand on things? Simple. God's in the same ideological boat as Lilith. They're both neutral, but have leaned more to one side or another. Lilith has chosen no side, as she is human. She's neither demon nor angel. She's only in Hell becuase Lucifer made the better offer. God has no side either, but Heaven is closer to getting it's alliance, simply because they are doing what he wants them to do to the best of their ability. Well, that's just my two cents. =====

"If there wasn't evil on every single being on the planet, Hell wouldn't be here."

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:01:28 +0930 From: "G N E Z D A" Subject: Re: IN> A theory on God Why can't God be omnipotent, good *and* still have evil existing? Perhaps he's allowed evil to exist because it'd make life more exciting for humans (if evil didn't exist at all, can you imagine how boring the world would be- no action movies for a start! :)), perhaps he's allowing evil to exist because without the threat of evil we won't truly appreciate the 'good' things in life? I'm sure there are other possibilities. That's just my thought anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:26:50 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN> a Happy Endings Contest? I thought it would be a happy ending for Lucifer... > God > Divine Creator of the Symphony > "The World- eh. It seemed like such a good idea at > the time." [...] > God's Fallen. And shows no signs of wanting to get > back up. So this means that if an Angel rolls an intervention they are going to catch it either way? But it's supposed to be an ending, so it doesn't matter anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 05:34:28 -0700 (PDT) From: W S Subject: Re: IN> a Happy Endings Contest? > So this means that if an Angel rolls an intervention > they are going to catch > it either way? > > But it's supposed to be an ending, so it doesn't > matter anyway. Yep. Das Angels are the badly outpowered rebels now, taking up arms against impotent throne. OTOH, there would probally be an army of demons willing to help 'em- possibly inclusive of Lucy himself. After all, if God Falls (or, more accurately, Jumps- Falling implies he became imperfect) then he would set himself up as the continued Almightly Lord thing. Which is a position that Lucifier distinctly wants for himself. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:29:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher Anthony" Subject: Re: IN> A theory on God Kanako Otaku said: > Why? You're confusing omnipotence (all-powerful) with omniagence (all-moving). The difference is one of action: a being with power over all things can still choose not to act. You're also confusing good with omnibenevolent. An omnibenevolent, omniagent God might eradicate evil to provide His charges with a better world in which to live (but since He'd be controlling their lives, it wouldn't make much of a difference), but a good, omnipotent God might just as easily leave evil be, considering that a) His charges need temptation with which to temper their souls, and b) He needs evil against which to be good. > Now, Lilith thinks God as an absent tyrant. This is wrong too. She > thinks God is evil. Wrong. By the same argument as above, God > cannot be evil. I'm not sure I follow your chain of logic here. When have we defined Lilith to be wrong on all counts? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 12:11:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A theory on God Kanako Otaku wrote: > But if an omnipotnet bineg is good, evil cannot exist. This is the classic set-up of the Problem of Evil. In Nomine is geared for the classic counter, the Free Will argument: Even though God is both good and omnipotent, He cannot create free moral agents and also guarantee that none of them will misbehave, producing evil -- since, if their behavior can be guaranteed, it is not free. If they *do* fall into sin, He can't very well go around constantly removing the consequences of sin, or their actions are not really free in any significant sense. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:33:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: RE: IN> Evil Mike part 4 - --- Kanako Otaku wrote: > you > could try the Philippine verison of the vampiric myth. > Basically, the > body, waist down is left behind, while the upper body > grows wings and starts sucking up blood. Sounds very similar to a Panangalin (sp?) -- basically a flying blood-sucking head. Different versions of the same myth, perhaps. In IN these could in fact be different versions of the same creature. Whether they're demons of Nightmares and/or Death or particularly nasty Ethereals is a matter of what you want for your campaign. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"There are two things that stand in the way of happy marriages

-- men and women." -- Rev. David Moore

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:37:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> A theory on God - --- Kanako Otaku wrote: > God is an omnipotent force. It (I use "it" since I > think God > doesn't have a gender) can do what it wants. God, by > Heaven's view, is > good. But if an omnipotnet bineg is good, evil cannot > exist. The logical problem with this is the assumption of human motivations for expunging evil. A truly omnipotent being would have no need for such motives -- it would, in fact, have motivations that we are quite incapable of understanding. IN canon is very much in keeping with this; even the Archangels don't understand why God doesn't just say, "Boo!" and make Hell and all the demons disappear. The beings closest to God (with the possible exception of Yves) have no idea how He thinks or why He does what He does. Without that level of incomprehensibility what you have is just lots and lots of power rather than true omnipotence. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"There are two things that stand in the way of happy marriages

-- men and women." -- Rev. David Moore

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:48:46 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A theory on God At 12:11 PM -0500 8/7/02, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Kanako Otaku wrote: > >> But if an omnipotnet bineg is good, evil cannot exist. > >This is the classic set-up of the Problem of Evil. >In Nomine is geared for the classic counter, the Free Will >argument: *beth gives earl the cookie* Yup. - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:29:27 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> A theory on God This quote is taken from _The Pilgrim's Regress_ by CS Lewis: the term "the Landlord" refers to God, as the whole piece is an allegory. "I see you have been among the enemy's people. In these latter days there is no charge against the Landlord which the Enemy brings so often as cruelty. That is just like the Enemy: for he is, at bottom, very dull. He has never hit on the one slander against the Landlord which would be really plausible. Anyone can refute the charge of cruelty. If he really wants to damage the Landlord's character, he has a much stronger line than that to take. He ought to say that the Landlord is an inveterate gambler. That would not be true, but it would be plausible, for there is no denying that the Landlord does take risks." "But what about the charge of cruelty?" "I was just coming to that. The Landlord has taken the risk of working the country with free tenants instead of slaves in chain gangs, and as they are free there is no way of making it impossible for them to go into forbidden places and eat forbidden fruits. Up to a certain point he can doctor them even when they have done so, and break them of the habit. But beyond that point -- you can see for yourself. A man can go on eating mountain-apple so long that nothing will cure his craving for it: and the very worms it breeds inside him will make him more certain to eat more. You must not try to fix the point after which a return is impossible, but you can see that there will be such a point somewhere." "But surely the Landlord can do anything?" "He cannot do what is contradictory: or, in other words, a meaningless sentence will not gain meaning simply because someone chooses to prefix to it the words "the Landlord can". And it is meaningless to talk of forcing a man to do freely what a man has freely made impossible for himself." - --- Genevieve - --- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:19:57 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: Re: IN> A theory on God That landlord bit reminded me forcibly of a recent episode of the Simpsons wherein Homer asked his neighbor, "Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?" Which of course lampoons the notion that an omnipotent deity must be able to do absolutely anything. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:58:54 -0600 From: "Wade Lahoda" Subject: Re: IN> A theory on God - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kanako Otaku" > I've just been thinking. Heaven professes God is good. Even if it's not > that clear, it's an underlying reason, if not *the* reason they do what > they do. Also, there is this belief that God is omnipotent. These two > statements or beliefs can't work well in the IN universe. > > Why? Classic Problem of Evil. It's not unique to the In Nomine universe, it's a problem that's been wrestled with here in reality, too. Enough has been discussed about it that you could probably spend half of an undergraduate philosophy program doing nothing else, if it weren't for damned departmental regulations that demand breadth from their undergrads. =) Here's /my/ take on how it works in the In Nomine universe: God is omnipotent - but he isn't sure whether he wants to be good or evil. God, like everyone else, has a Destiny - and a Fate. Unable to chose between the two, God split himself into billions of tiny parts - ie: the Symphony. God is everything, and everything is God. The War is God's internal struggle between his Destiny, and his Fate. Of course, Selflessness and Selfishness don't mean much if Self is all there is - so perhaps it's more of a struggle between self-preservation and self-annihilation. Suffice to say, if God chooses his Destiny, the Angels will win(in a High Contract Straight up campaign). If he chooses his Fate, the Demons will win(in a high contrast straight up campaign). Or is it if the Angels win, God will choose Destiny, and if the Demons win, God will choose Fate? It's really one and the same thing. The Angels have faith in God saving them come Armageddon - in other words, they have faith that, come decision time, God will chose good. They just hope he'll do the right thing. Of course, virtually no one realizes this - maybe Yves and Kronos do, and *maybe* Lucifer. Heaven and Hell are like scaled up versions of the little Angel and little Demon sitting on your shoulders, trying to sway you one way or another. *Everyone* is part of God - everyone has no free will, or complete free will, depending on how you choose to look at it. Perhaps the Symphony is just God's version of a grand thought experiment. In case it wasn't obvious, above views greatly shaped by the Kronos write-up in Heaven and Hell. Maybe he just used his Balseraph resonance on me. ;) A. Wade Lahoda ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2736 ********************************