in_nomine-digest Friday, September 6 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2764 In this digest: Re: IN>Something to chew on Re: IN>Something to chew on Re: IN> Skill Difficulty IN>Something to chew on Re: IN> Skill Difficulty Re: IN> Skill Difficulty Re: IN> Celform Artwork IN> Ping! Re: IN>Something to chew on Re: IN>Something to chew on Re: IN>Something to chew on RE: IN>Something to chew on RE: IN>Something to chew on IN>Sweet, sweet Symphony RE: IN>Something to chew on IN> =?iso-8859-1?Q?Aruanah_-_Kyriotate_of_Creation=2C_Angel_of_The_Moment?= RE: IN>Something to chew on Re: IN> Ping! RE: IN>Something to chew on IN> Hey, E. Bertish ... RE: IN>Something to chew on Re: IN> Ping! IN> Looking at Adam and Eve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:36:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ong, Harvey" Subject: Re: IN>Something to chew on >Andrealphus: Her human form is whatever you must lust after, taken up >a notch. She usually has red hair. Her celestial form is either the >most sexual man or woman you have ever imagined, with long black hair >and very exotic features. I prefer a black haired Andrea myself, with eyes a deep shade of green. >Beleth: Her human form is an utterly ugly and terrifying human with no >eyes, bone-white skin, wispy hair, the works. Her celestial form is... >well, no one is sure. Whatever it is, whenever you look at it, you see >your worst fear... For human form, i've always taken to IN:Anime for it. Wearing black robes, really beautiful, with a halo of ghosts around her. As for Celestial, nothingness. Whenever she "appears" Celestially, all you see is nothing, no indication that she's there other than her voice and the chills down your spine. >Lilith: She always appears as a woman with a wild bush of luminous >white hair, with soft glowing white skin. She looks like a Lilim, sans >the horns and green skin really. Other than the fact that I prefer Lilith with black or chestnut colored hair, this is fine by me. Oh, and I always, ALWAYS tend to make her dress in Japanese when in Shal-Mari. Don't know why, but I can't get rid of the image of Lilith in a black kimono with red cherry blossom designs out of my head. ===== "A good author can make the mind imagine." "A great author can make the mind believe." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 01:43:45 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: Re: IN>Something to chew on > >For human form, i've always taken to IN:Anime for it. Wearing black >robes, really beautiful, with a halo of ghosts around her. As for >Celestial, nothingness. Whenever she "appears" Celestially, all you see >is nothing, no indication that she's there other than her voice and the >chills down your spine. Gah! I need to buy that book! ;-; > > >Other than the fact that I prefer Lilith with black or chestnut colored >hair, this is fine by me. Oh, and I always, ALWAYS tend to make her >dress in Japanese when in Shal-Mari. Don't know why, but I can't get >rid of the image of Lilith in a black kimono with red cherry blossom >designs out of my head. Hey. I really like that image of her. It fits somehow. This is how I imagine Lilith actually, except she's glowing white, and she doesn't look so... feral and evil and stuff. http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff6/graphics/people/terra.jpg _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 23:51:00 -0400 From: Michael Nutt Subject: Re: IN> Skill Difficulty EDG wrote: > > Unfortunately, I haven't playtested this at all. Suggestions are > > welcome; I'm aware that CP costs here are high, but it does solve the > > problem of a character starting out with no combat skills at all and > > becoming a Kung Fu Grandmaster after two average sessions. and John Dallman followed up with: > Well, this makes it cheaper to buy up stats than skills, which doesn't > seem right. Easier ways to deal with this: > > * Don't give out experience every session: give it out at break points in > the campaign. > > * Don't let them buy up their skills by more than one level at a time. I personally like the second one, although there should also be opportunities for Superiors to grant skills at a faster rate. I like to think of it as a Superior flash-updating a Servitor's BIOS, basically. :) Your genuine munchkins will be buying up stats and Forces instead of skills, since it's more cost-effective that way -- you get to improve *all* the skill target numbers when the stat goes up. Also, you get all the extra perks from having more Forces -- more Essence, extra hits, and better target numbers for any Songs. The GM has to keep an eye on what players are buying with their XP, and shouldn't be shy about saying, "No way, bud." If you don't want people learning high-level skills in comparatively short amounts of time, make them spend their points on other things -- servants, Roles, artifacts, attunements, other skills, what have you. If your players aren't receptive to the idea that you'd like to slow down the speed at which they're acquiring abilities, then you've got bigger problems than a cinematically coarse skill system. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 07:53:59 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN>Something to chew on > Haagenti: His human form is a huge and fat man with red hair (think > something like Fat Bastard from Austin Powers) and his celestial form is > like in Canon- giant angry evil death demon. Did you ever see Mr. Creasote from _Monty Python's The Meaning Of Life_? You remember... "Oh dear. I have trod in Mssr.'s bucket." [snip] "Just one mint... It's wafer thin." *BOOM!* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 08:32:05 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Skill Difficulty At 11:38 PM 9/4/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Well, this makes it cheaper to buy up stats than skills, which doesn't >seem right. Why? It's easy to do push-ups and lift weights. It's hard to learn how to fight with a sword. >* Don't give out experience every session: give it out at break points in > the campaign. The GM, unfortunately, has to strike a balance between how easy his life is and how rewarded his players feel. Giving out experience at non-predictable intervals, and giving out an increased amount at those intervals (9 CP at the end of a three-session story arc, instead of 3 CP per session), will tend to be more rewarding for the players, but they don't have the sense of constant feedback and being able to apply the skills they've been working on if they're not gaining experience at a regular rate. >* Don't let them buy up their skills by more than one level at a time. Again, an admirable suggestion, but the most workable version of this that I can think of involves having two copies of every character (the player's sheet and the GM's sheet). While this is a useful strategy (not least because the GM doesn't have to keep asking "What's your Emote again?"), it isn't necessarily the best one, since it involves, at least to a slight extent, betraying player trust. On the other hand, you have the problem of putting trust in your players not to abuse the rules, which - while normally not something you have to worry about - can become a problem with that one guy who always plays the Balseraph. Don't get me wrong: those are both good ideas, and would work admirably in a more regulated setting (such as an online game, where the rules are monitored by the program), but involve a lot of work in a tabletop game. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 05:43:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Skill Difficulty - --- John Dallman wrote: > * Don't give out experience every session: give it out at > break points in the campaign. I find that this leads to frustrated players, but YMMV. > * Don't let them buy up their skills by more than one > level at a time. I prefer this method. I also apply it to stats. I've yet to hear a complaint about it. =====

Michael Walton, #US2002023848

"Don't repent. Stop sinnin'." -- old cowboy saying

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 17:24:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celform Artwork At 5:29 PM -0400 9/3/02, William J. Keith wrote: [Re forbidden music warnings] >> But the moment that it veers away into "Do >>it like X, or Y which is just THE perfect Q music..." -- it's into >>the Forbidden Music Thread.) > >More like "So here's this xylophone MIDI I wrote, trying to evoke the >sensation of what it's like to be an Elohite." But I'll keep it Web-bound >if I do anything with it, since it treads on delicate borders. *nod* Though that sort of discussion, if it's _JUST_ regarding the music itself, is okay. It's just when it drifts... Then again, there's always yahoogroups. If you do something like that, heck, I'll set up a yahoogroup for it, if you want me to instead of doing it yourself. O:> - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 12:50:12 -0400 From: EDG Subject: IN> Ping! And just so that this isn't a completely wasted post... - -EDG Crissaegrim Large Weapon: Power 5, Accuracy 1 Crissaegrim is a sword, light and swift and silvered. Its hilt was crafted to look as though it were covered in feathers, and its blade is quick with flowing runes in an ancient, almost-forgotten (but still Earthly) language: "That they might stand against the Darkest Forces". Although it is the size of a longsword, it can be held easily in one hand, and the blade is light enough to allow it to be used along with a shield. Crissaegrim has two properties which will be immediately obvious to its wielder: it is blindingly fast, allowing for two attacks per round (one before anything else, except supernatural powers and Ofanim of War, and the other at the wielder's normal initiative), and if the wielder forgoes all attacks for a round, he may defend with Crissaegrim, adding its Power either to his defense roll or to the check digit. Crissaegrim is, sadly, a unique weapon. It's not that more couldn't be made: in fact, the enchantments and metals are fairly easy to come by, if you know where to look. It's not that it's especially deadly: even in its day there were more powerful weapons, and in the age of firearms, Crissaegrim seems almost outmoded. It's that anyone skilled enough to duplicate the weapon also knows its legend, and considers duplicating the artifact to be a slight to the memory of the lost Great Eagles... (Crissaegrim is a relic of a lost era. It does not have a character point cost; finding the sword, or retrieving it from a demonic wielder, should be an adventure worthy of the blade in and of itself.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:15:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Something to chew on At 7:56 PM -0400 9/4/02, Josh Moger wrote: >Don't know why. Can't explain. Doesn't make sense- >But Laurence is forever blond in my mind's eye. IIRC, the French Laurent _is_ a blond. With a crew cut. - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:25:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Something to chew on At 1:43 AM +0000 9/5/02, Sirea Theyal wrote: >> >>For human form, i've always taken to IN:Anime for it.[...] >Gah! I need to buy that book! ;-; Definitely! (And it's relatively inexpensive, as it's a 32-pager.) >>Other than the fact that I prefer Lilith with black or chestnut colored >>hair, [...] Ah, yes, my conception of Lilith... Well, I had the first Movie Trailer dream of her being played by whossname, Kate Mulgrew, who does the Voyager captain. Which is basically because I figure that Lilith is _short_. Like, five-foot-two at most. Black hair with red highlights, tanned/naturally tan skin, eyes like green ice with a darker green rim around. Sure, she can change her form -- auburn hair, darker eyes, freckles; African; Oriental; Nordic -- but that's the form that I see as her original one. And even though she's short, she still radiates the power of a Princess, and people feel it. (If Adam were kicking around, I'd make him short, too.) - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 13:49:45 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN>Something to chew on Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Ah, yes, my conception of Lilith... > > Well, I had the first Movie Trailer dream of her being played by > whossname, Kate Mulgrew, who does the Voyager captain. Which is > basically because I figure that Lilith is _short_. Like, five-foot-two > at most. Black hair with red highlights, tanned/naturally tan skin, > eyes like green ice with a darker green rim around. Interestingly, this is roughly my conception of Adam and Eve's coloration -- largely because you could get all the various colorations of humanity from that start, with just modest genetic drift. The tan skin is a ruddy brown, like that of American Indians. Also, they have "inter-racial" features (really pre-racial), and the hair is wavy. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:42:08 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN>Something to chew on Normally I keep out of the "what would so-and-so look like" in Amber, In Nomine or any list, because it really is a matter of choice. Especially Amberlist which I sometimes wish did have a policy against trying to name actors for people in the books because it occurs all the time. And this is not meant to be an "actors" thread, but I have always thought Kobal would look somewhat like Marty Feldman. I mean, he's a Demon Prince and can choose to look like what ever he wants, but I just think he would find it a gas to choose a vessel that has something quirky like a wandering eye and such a lopsided grin. There would be this important council meetings with Kronos and Asmodeus ranting and pointing fingers as they made demands on the others. And there Kobal would sit, eyes looking in two different directions with the uptight Princes never knowing if he is paying any attention to them or just thinking of snide remarks to make about Andy. Let the other DPs show off in fancy vessels and puffed up Celestial forms. Kobal knows it's nothing but smoke and mirrors, anyone of them could *choose* to look like anything they wanted, so why play to their egos and try and look cooler, or meaner, or tougher or bigger? Which is probably the same reason Yves chooses to look like George Burns did in the movie "Oh God" DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 18:53:39 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: RE: IN>Something to chew on Well, I personally have the bad habit of seeing all my characters in anime terms, I never really can put a real life person to a characters face, nor do I ever really want to. And now that I think about it, my Lilith is also really short. Around 5'3". Adam was 4'11", and Eve was a whooping 5'5". _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 18:59:58 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: IN>Sweet, sweet Symphony I had a funny thing happen to me a while ago. I'm at college now, and I was at the book store trying to buy my math book (blinkin $100 book!) when I looked over at the candy rack, and saw something that just made me laugh. It was a Hershey's Symphony chocolate bar. Normally that wouldn't be anything funny, but I recalled having read Moe's Angel of Chocolate write-up on his page a few days back, and laughed. Heaven and Hell got their own candy bar line to supply their Soldiers! I had to buy one. - -Sirea, Free Cherub and fellow lover of the mystical chocolate _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:20:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN>Something to chew on At 6:53 PM +0000 9/5/02, Sirea Theyal wrote: >And now that I think about it, my Lilith is also really short. Around 5'3". >Adam was 4'11", and Eve was a whooping 5'5". Why was Adam the shortest? First-created? - --Beth, arcangel@io.com / archangel@sjgames.com In Nomine Line Editor http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:42:25 +0100 From: "Nick Ashton" Subject: IN> =?iso-8859-1?Q?Aruanah_-_Kyriotate_of_Creation=2C_Angel_of_The_Moment?= Here is an Angel myself and a player have been working on for an upcoming angelics campaign, I thought I might share the background with you. Its for an NPC, the player wanted to explore some themes from his reading of Nietzche (*sigh*) and we decided the angel he was creating would need a rather special patron... though Aruanah is not an Archangel, he has a powerful word (in my game anyway) and I'll be playing on the idea that he might be promoted in-campaign. Hope you enjoy! ++++++++++++++ Aruanah – Kyriotate of Creation, Angel of The Moment "Every man has his folly, but the greatest folly at all, in my view, is not to have one." -Zorba the Greek God is omnipresent, he is everywhere in the movement of a breeze, the breath of the sunlight and the clashing of thunder in the storm. God exists now, here, everywhere and always. It is in the moment that God is to be seen, anything that takes us away from God in the moment is the beginning of the path away from God. Our purpose is to worship God in the here and now, in the twinkling of an eye at the setting of the sun. Our purpose is to worship God, we are to worship when we are happy, to worship when we are in pain and to worship in the here and now. Aruanah, as the Angel of The Moment, has been charged with maintaining the flow of Creation, guarding the presence of God in the here and now. As a powerful Kyriotate he can know the meaning of a moment for a multitude of people and places, and he is devoted to turning as many moments as possible towards the joy of God. One of the first angels created by Eli as Archangel of Creation, Eli told Aruanah to 'live for the moment', and this simple truth has resonated within him ever since. Aruanah was involved with the servitors of Stone, and later the Grigori, in helping the fledgling humanity develop their intuition and spiritual nature. He got his Word for the moment when individuality is surrendered to the release of a communal fervour, the primal unity necessary for the primitive humans’ social and spiritual advancement. But although instrumental in the early development of Man, before and after The Fall, The Moment suffered a series of setbacks as that very advancement began to take hold. Aruanah was distraught at the banishment of the Grigori and the wholesale slaughter of the Nephallim. Their only crime, as he saw it, was the surrender themselves fully to the beauty of the moment. Indeed it is rumoured that only the intervention of Eli and Yves prevented Aruanah from battling alongside them. As civilisation grew the Angel of the Moment clashed frequently with Uriel (who held Aruanah at least partly responsible for the fall of his beloved Rome) and with Dominic, who’s Inquisition had forbade Aruanah from appearing in his satyr's form. When religion developed to focus on one God, and words like Revelation and Enlightenment cam to the fore, the spiritual aspect of Aruanah's word was diminished. More than any angel other than Jordi, Aruanah has distanced himself from the politics of the religious establishment, which he sees as dangerously stolid. Although he believes that its controlling nature and dogma can detract more from God’s word than it adds, he has been known to use the church as a tool for his messages. During the Middle Ages Aruanah had greater worries than promoting his Word in the face of cynicism from the conservative members of the Host, or attempting to keep the new institutions from losing touch with Creation. He also had to fight a growing battle against the corruption of his word by the Demons of Lust and Sloth. These Demons would even go so far as to usurp his ancient rites and practices by tainting the ideals of Dionysian revelry in corrupt mockery of his Word, and the response of the Host often spilled over into attacks on the more ‘natural’ worship of Aruanah’s charges. Since humanity has grown more sophisticated Aruanah has adapted his role. During the period of so-called Renaissance and Enlightenment Aruanah was busy helping the oppressed to appreciate the beauty of a single moment, while diverting the oppressors into away from hurtful intent. In particular he patronised the people of Africa, many of whom where still performing the ancient rites he had taught them so long ago. These he brought hope and peace by encouraging them to contact the Symphony through song, though their instruments as well as the lands they sang of had been stolen from them. The Industrial Revolution presented a new challenge for Aruanah, focussing yet more minds on "progress" to the future at the expense of the enjoyment of the present, while damning many to drudgery and soulless city slums. As he continues promoting hope and challenging the grind of the modern production line, he is having great success through promoting the Gospel church, Jazz, Blues and other 'Music of Black Origin'. Despite this success, he has again clashed with the more militant Archangels, who are frustrated by his unwillingness to force the music into direct celebration of God. Christian Rock is a project that Aruanah has not had any input on, much to Laurence’s chagrin. God is the Symphony and is present in every moment- indeed is made up of every moment, so a moment of Joy for one person is a more powerful celebration of Gods Light than a hundred soulless renditions of Handel's Messiah. Although wary of Lust, and hostile to the destructive Gluttony, Aruanah's main opposition in Hell is to Fate- The Damned have been removed from Creation and the cycle of experience. Aruanah would never expect promotion to Archangel status, and would certainly never plan for such. The mere idea is of course frowned upon by the more regimented sections of the Seraphim Council. But there is a void to be filled, and the existing archangels are struggling to cover the gaps left by the death of Raphael, the absence of Eli and the exile of Gabriel. It is hard to see who would be better suited. "You want to build a monastery. That's it! [...] Well, I'm going to ask you a favor, holy abbot: I want you to appoint me doorkeeper to your monastery so that I can do some smuggling and, now and then, let some very strange things through into the holy precincts: women, mandolins, demijohns of raki, roast sucking pigs ... All so that you don't fritter away your life with a lot of nonsense!" –Zorba the Greek ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 14:33:00 -0600 From: Julian Mensch Subject: RE: IN>Something to chew on > >And now that I think about it, my Lilith is also really short. Around 5'3". > >Adam was 4'11", and Eve was a whooping 5'5". > > Why was Adam the shortest? First-created? I don't know Sirea's reason, but I do think there's irony in the traditionally passive, weak-minded first woman being taller than both her dominant husband and his first wife, who is intellectually and spiritually her superior. It's a neat visual. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 22:17:35 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Ping! >It's that anyone skilled enough to duplicate the weapon also knows its >legend, and considers duplicating the artifact to be a slight to the memory >of the lost Great Eagles... Oh, come on, don't be like that; tell us the legend. Please? Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 00:29:24 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: RE: IN>Something to chew on > > >And now that I think about it, my Lilith is also really short. Around >5'3". > > >Adam was 4'11", and Eve was a whooping 5'5". > > > > Why was Adam the shortest? First-created? > > I don't know Sirea's reason, but I do think there's >irony in the traditionally passive, weak-minded first >woman being taller than both her dominant husband and >his first wife, who is intellectually and spiritually >her superior. It's a neat visual. > Well, Adam was 4'11" inches with slightly walnut colored skin, shirt and very curly brown-black hair, and two black eyes. Lilith was 5'3", had lighter, golden skin, with long auburn hair and green eyes. She got her unique appearance when she gained the Word of Freedom. Eve was tall, at 5'5", had more pale and rosy colored skin, and long brown hair, with two watery blue eyes. My rational? Well, Adam was made first (untrue actually, Adam and Lilith were made from the same material at the same time, they "split" and took on their distinct aspects) and had a little less potential than Lilith, and turned out shorter, while Lilith was a little more graceful and muscular, and was taller. Eve however, was a fluke. She was made to be around 5' flat, but -someone- played with the material and she ended up being tall and looking quite a bit different. She was also mentally stunted in order to make certain events easier to happen... Well, now that ou mention it, it does give a unique vision. My Adam was imposing but really not too strong, he was overblown on his Naming power. Lilith could have wiped the floor with both of them easily, and -did- so with Adam when she got fed up (she decked him in their last argument and sent him flying into a tree), but Adam and Eve were still uber-humans, compared to today's stock. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 00:45:47 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Hey, E. Bertish ... Something with your name on it and a virus in it just tried (unsuccessfully) to board my computer. Take note. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:57:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Shih Subject: RE: IN>Something to chew on - --- Sirea Theyal wrote: > Well, Adam [snip] and two black eyes. Wonder how he got those shiners. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:15:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher Anthony" Subject: Re: IN> Ping! Janet Anderson said: > Oh, come on, don't be like that; tell us the legend. Please? I'm afraid I'm a little short on my Tolkien at the moment, but Crissaegrim was the name of the impassable mountain upon which Thorobaldin's (sp?) Great Eagles lived. They didn't make it past the First Age, though, and all that's left of mighty Crissaegrim is the sword... - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:54:19 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve - -----Original Message----- From: Sirea Theyal [mailto:sireabloodtear@hotmail.com] > > >And now that I think about it, my Lilith is also really short. Around >5'3". > > >Adam was 4'11", and Eve was a whooping 5'5". > > > > Why was Adam the shortest? First-created? > > I don't know Sirea's reason, but I do think there's irony in the traditionally passive, weak-minded first >woman being taller than both her dominant husband and his first wife, who is intellectually and spiritually >her superior. It's a neat visual. > My rational? Well, Adam was made first (untrue actually, Adam and Lilith were made from the same material at the same time, they "split" and took on their distinct aspects) and had a little less potential than Lilith, and turned out shorter, while Lilith was a little more graceful and muscular, and was taller. Eve however, was a fluke. She was made to be around 5' flat, but -someone- played with the material and she ended up being tall and looking quite a bit different. She was also mentally stunted in order to make certain events easier to happen... Well, now that you mention it, it does give a unique vision. My Adam was imposing but really not too strong, he was overblown on his Naming power. Lilith could have wiped the floor with both of them easily, and -did- so with Adam when she got fed up (she decked him in their last argument and sent him flying into a tree), but Adam and Eve were still uber-humans, compared to today's stock. ** ** ** There's been enough written this week along this line of thought that I have a question. Does everyone's campaign include the fact that Adam was some overbearing, bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve always considered a brain dead moron? Who let Archie and Edith Bunker into the Eden Experiment? What gives? "First, Lucifer proposed, two perfect specimens would be needed, one male and one female. They would be created from scratch, since he didn't want the experiment tainted by subjects who had already experienced the harshness of ordinary life. God created a man - whom Yves named Adam - and a woman, Lilith." Three sentences later, after Lilith has bailed on the show, it says that God creates Eve. God created this venal, fault ridden, doom-the-experiment-from-the-beginning, male and then followed it with a "mentally stunted" female???? Sure, Adam and Eve had their faults; they were HUMAN after all, so they made human mistakes. But why does Adam have to be depicted as some sort of KKK redneck while Eve gets even worse treatment as a born again Gorean Red-silk slave girl? Personal Opinion; Adam and Eve are exactly as written by Mark Twain in "A Diary of Adam and Eve" which is both hilarious and poignant and I think truly shows what a spiritual man Mister Twain was, despite his cynicism. It is one of the few books that can make me cry when I read it. If you're really lucky, some community theatre group near you will do the stage version called "The Apple Tree". DS1 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2764 ********************************