in_nomine-digest Friday, September 6 2002 Volume 01 : Number 2765 In this digest: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN>Sweet, sweet Symphony Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve RE: IN>Something to chew on Re: IN> Aruanah - Kyriotate of Creation, Angel of The Moment Re: IN> Aruanah - Kyriotate of Creation, Angel of The Moment IN> Uh, sorry. Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN>Sweet, sweet Symphony RE: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve RE: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve RE: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord RE: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" IN>Something to chew on Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve RE: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:40:01 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > > There's been enough written this week along this line of thought that I have > a question. Does everyone's campaign include the fact that Adam was some > overbearing, bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve always considered a brain > dead moron? I've never done much with Eve, but I've usually had Adam be someone who let his pride get in the way of his ability to treat Lilith as an equal. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:43:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Forman Subject: Re: IN>Sweet, sweet Symphony Not sure if you know or care: the Symphony candy bar has been out quite a while...at least ten years. I know because, unfortunately, I've eaten my share of the bloody things :) - --- Sirea Theyal wrote: > I had a funny thing happen to me a while ago. I'm at > college now, and I was > at the book store trying to buy my math book > (blinkin $100 book!) when I > looked over at the candy rack, and saw something > that just made me laugh. It > was a Hershey's Symphony chocolate bar. Normally > that wouldn't be anything > funny, but I recalled having read Moe's Angel of > Chocolate write-up on his > page a few days back, and laughed. Heaven and Hell > got their own candy bar > line to supply their Soldiers! I had to buy one. > > -Sirea, Free Cherub and fellow lover of the mystical > chocolate > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN > Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 01:30:15 -0600 From: "Wade Lahoda" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" > There's been enough written this week along this line of thought that I have > a question. Does everyone's campaign include the fact that Adam was some > overbearing, bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve always considered a brain > dead moron? Personally, I see In Nomine's Adam and Eve as both being fairly typical human beings. Lilith too, at least before the shit hit the fan. Top of the line humans, but pretty average people. Adam and Eve both being of pretty decent intelligence. The standard folklore reason Lilith left was because she refused to submit to Adam. I see the IN Lilith leaving because of refusing to submit to GOD. Not wanting to be part of an "Experiment". So she took off - at the time, relatively few hard feelings. Of course, in the IN universe, Adam, Lilith and Eve were also not, by a long shot, the first humans. They were just very isolated humans. Perhaps God created them out of whole-cloth, or perhaps he just whisked them from the outside world as infants or somesuch. I prefer the second option. It isn't "And then God created man", it's "So man evolved, and God thought man was pretty nifty. So he took some as pets, isolated them in a cage, gave them plenty of human food, and watched them as an experiment. If he had been a mortal, he would have poked and proded them with instruments. As it was, he was God, so he just used his omniscience." =) A. Wade Lahoda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 01:05:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ong, Harvey" Subject: RE: IN>Something to chew on >And now that I think about it, my Lilith is also really short. Around >5'3". Adam was 4'11", and Eve was a whooping 5'5". My Lilith is around 5'5". Then again, the only Superior I got that's really tall is Laurnece, at 5'11". I'm asian, so really tall characters don't appeal to me that much. As for Adam and Eve, Adam's the same heigt as Lilith, while Eve is a little shorter at 5'3". ===== "A good author can make the mind imagine." "A great author can make the mind believe." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 17:35:29 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> Aruanah - Kyriotate of Creation, Angel of The Moment Hey, At 08:42 PM 9/5/2002 +0100, 'twas written: >Here is an Angel myself and a player have been working on for an upcoming >angelics campaign, I thought I might share the background with you. > >Its for an NPC, the player wanted to explore some themes from his reading of >Nietzche (*sigh*) and we decided the angel he was creating would need a >rather special patron... though Aruanah is not an Archangel, he has a >powerful word (in my game anyway) and I'll be playing on the idea that he >might be promoted in-campaign. Hope you enjoy! > >++++++++++++++ >Aruanah ­ Kyriotate of Creation, Angel of The Moment Oh, I liked this. I hope you don't mind. ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools Aruanah Shedite of Fate The Demon of Instant Gratification The twelve-year old boy sitting across from the angel sat uneasily in his chair. His eyes were bloodshot and there were flakes of snot around his nostrils; a perceptive man might even be able to make out the grains of white powder that the boy had failed to conceal. Prepubescent hands grasped almost desperately at a lit cigarette; the angel, frowning, was studying the pack of Winstons and looked as though he wouldn't give it back. "Is this what you've come to, Aru? After so long with us?" the angel asked, her voice a flat, dangerous whisper. "No." The boy's voice was raspy, thick, but still high: puberty hadn't set in yet. He took another drag from the cigarette. "So. How's Eli?" "You know damn well he's down here somewhere." "Ah, yes. His famous walkabout." "Come back with me. We can still work this out." There was pleading in the voice; Aru knew it well. "And what would that do? Eli's gone, God doesn't care. Dominic's doing his best to take care of the rest. Every week we find more angels to kill; it's better here, at least there's a party going on somewhere." "You didn't talk this way when you were still one of us." The boy was silent a long time. "I didn't know...there was such wonder in forgetting." He glanced down; the cigarette had burned down to ashes. "It's time for me to go. The band will be leaving soon." "I'll have to fight you." "You?" Aru snickered. "You're a Mercurian. You wouldn't know how to fight. And you forget what happened the last time you tried something cute. You killed that runaway." "Better that than to let you corrupt her." "That's the beauty of it...I wasn't in her anymore." He laughed again. "She was trying to get home." The Mercurian paled. "The crackwhore had gotten to be a burden." He spit on the floor. "Now can I go?" "You'll pay for this, Aru. For all your sins." "So you say. So you say." And then he was gone. Aruanah didn't Fall, he Jumped. As more and more people turned away from the simple, natural joy of Faith to the unrelenting diversion offered by the modern world, he felt a quiet wrench; a fundamental shift in his way of thinking. Dismayed, he tried to reach Eli, only to be thwarted by the Archangel's disappearance from Heaven. As the days and weeks turned into months and years, Aruanah's faith in Heaven's righteousness, so long his bedrock, grew weak. A chance encounter with a high-ranking Servitor of Lust further unnerved the wavering Angel of the Moment: in their own way, weren't demons also merely living in the now? He became drawn to raves and nightclubs, seeking to comprehend the pleasure that Servitors of Lust, Fire, the lost Oblivion and the later Hardcore drew from such places. And then one day he understood. He awoke screaming in Kronos's Archive, unaware of how he'd gotten there. Brief flashes illuminated his memory: an argument at the gates with the Angels of Final Judgment, a struggle with Habbalah and Djinn, Kronos himself looking on with interest. As he rose from the ground, he discovered that he relished the sheer joy of power and domination, and something in his heart told him that he would no longer need to protect the mortals whose existences he shared. He had become a Shedite, and it was good. Kronos was waiting for him in a small room nearby. A Habbalite took notes while the new demon narrated his tale, omitting no fact, offering new insights into the nature of human distraction. The Prince of Fate was impressed: clearly, this was another way of bringing mortals to Hell's Gates. He promised the new Shedite his patronage, provided that he first prove his worth by bringing a mortal to his fate. This was, of course, a trap: no Shedite can force a mortal to his fate, but it was worth a try anyway. Imagine Kronos's surprise, then, when Aruanah showed up in the Archives, his mortal host in tow. The mortal, a rock musician, had chosen his fate instead of being forced into it. The experiment was a success. Delighted, the Prince of Fate sent the Shedite off on another mission. Three mortals later, Lucifer himself took an interest, and granted Aruanah the Word of Instant Gratification. He's been on the rise ever since. Since his binding, Aruanah has enjoyed considerable autonomy, and is free to come and go as he pleases. He has yet to earn a Distinction from Kronos, but he doesn't really care: all he wants is to corrupt someone, and to corrupt someone now. Nothing pleases him more than to 'initiate' a teenager into the death spiral of non-stop partying, drugs, and unrelenting fun. He knows enough to get free from his host at just the right moment, although he has cut it close once or twice. It's also worth noting that none of his past hosts have fully recovered their lives after being ridden by Aruanah: he takes pride in this, and wears it like a badge of honor in Hell. And every so often he'll pop into Hell with a new mortal in tow, eager to receive some kind of recognition from Kronos. The Prince of Fate has taken notice, and wonders privately whether or not it would do the Shedite good if he were to be ignored in Hell... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 17:39:13 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: Re: IN> Aruanah - Kyriotate of Creation, Angel of The Moment Hey, At 08:42 PM 9/5/2002 +0100, 'twas written: >Here is an Angel myself and a player have been working on for an upcoming >angelics campaign, I thought I might share the background with you. > >Its for an NPC, the player wanted to explore some themes from his reading of >Nietzche (*sigh*) and we decided the angel he was creating would need a >rather special patron... though Aruanah is not an Archangel, he has a >powerful word (in my game anyway) and I'll be playing on the idea that he >might be promoted in-campaign. Hope you enjoy! > >++++++++++++++ >Aruanah ­ Kyriotate of Creation, Angel of The Moment Oh, I liked this. I hope you don't mind. ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools Aruanah Shedite of Fate The Demon of Instant Gratification The twelve-year old boy sitting across from the angel squirmed uneasily in his chair. His eyes were bloodshot and there were flakes of snot around his nostrils; a perceptive man might even be able to make out the grains of white powder that the boy had failed to conceal. Prepubescent hands grasped almost desperately at a lit cigarette; the angel, frowning, was studying the pack of Winstons and looked as though she wouldn't give it back. "Is this what you've come to, Aru? After so long with us?" the angel asked, her voice a flat, dangerous whisper. "No." The boy's voice was raspy, thick, but still high: puberty hadn't set in yet. He took another drag from the cigarette. "So. How's Eli?" "You know damn well he's down here somewhere." "Ah, yes. His famous walkabout." "Come back with me. We can still work this out." There was pleading in the voice; Aru knew it well. "And what would that do? Eli's gone, God doesn't care. Dominic's doing his best to take care of the rest. Every week we find more angels to kill; it's better here, at least there's a party going on somewhere." "You didn't talk this way when you were still one of us." The boy was silent a long time. "I didn't know...there was such wonder in forgetting." He glanced down; the cigarette had burned down to ashes. "It's time for me to go. The band will be leaving soon." "I'll have to fight you." "You?" Aru snickered. "You're a Mercurian. You wouldn't know how to fight. And you forget what happened the last time you tried something cute. You killed that runaway." "Better that than to let you corrupt her." "That's the beauty of it...I wasn't in her anymore." He laughed again. "She was trying to get home." The Mercurian paled. "The crackwhore had gotten to be a burden." He spit on the floor. "Now can I go?" "You'll pay for this, Aru. For all your sins." "So you say. So you say." And then he was gone. Aruanah didn't Fall, he Jumped. As more and more people turned away from the simple, natural joy of Faith to the unrelenting diversion offered by the modern world, he felt a quiet wrench; a fundamental shift in his way of thinking. Dismayed, he tried to reach Eli, only to be thwarted by the Archangel's disappearance from Heaven. As the days and weeks turned into months and years, Aruanah's faith in Heaven's righteousness, so long his bedrock, grew weak. A chance encounter with a high-ranking Servitor of Lust further unnerved the wavering Angel of the Moment: in their own way, weren't demons also merely living in the now? He became drawn to raves and nightclubs, seeking to comprehend the pleasure that Servitors of Lust, Fire, the lost Oblivion and the later Hardcore drew from such places. And then one day he understood. He awoke screaming in Kronos's Archive, unaware of how he'd gotten there. Brief flashes illuminated his memory: an argument at the gates with the Angels of Final Judgment, a struggle with Habbalah and Djinn, Kronos himself looking on with interest. As he rose from the ground, he discovered that he relished the sheer joy of power and domination, and something in his heart told him that he would no longer need to protect the mortals whose existences he shared. He had become a Shedite, and it was good. Kronos was waiting for him in a small room nearby. A Habbalite took notes while the new demon narrated his tale, omitting no fact, offering new insights into the nature of human distraction. The Prince of Fate was impressed: clearly, this was another way of bringing mortals to Hell's Gates. He promised the new Shedite his patronage, provided that he first prove his worth by bringing a mortal to his fate. This was, of course, a trap: no Shedite can force a mortal to his fate, but it was worth a try anyway. Imagine Kronos's surprise, then, when Aruanah showed up in the Archives, his mortal host in tow. The mortal, a rock musician, had chosen his fate instead of being forced into it. The experiment was a success. Delighted, the Prince of Fate sent the Shedite off on another mission. Three mortals later, Lucifer himself took an interest, and granted Aruanah the Word of Instant Gratification. He's been on the rise ever since. Since his binding, Aruanah has enjoyed considerable autonomy, and is free to come and go as he pleases. He has yet to earn a Distinction from Kronos, but he doesn't really care: all he wants is to corrupt someone, and to corrupt someone now. Nothing pleases him more than to 'initiate' a teenager into the death spiral of non-stop partying, drugs, and unrelenting fun. He knows enough to get free from his host at just the right moment, although he has cut it close once or twice. It's also worth noting that none of his past hosts have fully recovered their lives after being ridden by Aruanah: he takes pride in this, and wears it like a badge of honor in Hell. And every so often he'll pop into Hell with a new mortal in tow, eager to receive some kind of recognition from Kronos. The Prince of Fate has taken notice, and wonders privately whether or not it would do the Shedite good if he were to be ignored in Hell... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 17:40:50 +0800 From: Manny Nepomuceno Subject: IN> Uh, sorry. Hey, Apologies for sending that twice. As I was sending the first one, I noticed some errors I missed out on fixing and halted the send; it was only after I edited and re-sent the message that I noticed that the first one got through after all. Again, my apologies. ;) Manny Neps http://www.geocities.com/angeloffools ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 12:37:31 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Heh. Well, IMC Adam and Eve and Lilith were NOT created by God alone, and all three of them were tampered with by outside forces. Lilith got away pretty clean, but Adam was infected with Hubris, and Eve was made to be prone to docile and weak behavior. Lilith saw this after she left abnd became angry at Heaven and God, because she thought God made her that way. She doesn't know the Truth of it... So basically, even though my Adam and Eve have now reconciled their problems (Adam is a humble and caring person, he sealed his powers away long ago and roams the Earth, while Eve managed to snap to and break her mental limiter, and no one knows where she went), they still were tainted to begin with. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:55:13 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >Anyone> But you do seem to agree with Mark Twain... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 12:59:48 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: Re: IN>Sweet, sweet Symphony Well, I live in MA, land of We-Always-Get-Stuff-Really-REALLY-Late-(Or-Not-At-All) Seriously though, I haven't seen one in about 10 years anyway, so... ^_^ _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:46:11 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Williby [mailto:parksideninja@hotmail.com] >Anyone> But you do seem to agree with Mark Twain... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: If you've ever read him beyond "Tom Saywer" you'd know how much he would'a been a servant of Factions too. He had about the same low opinion of religion as Robert Heinlein. I'm not agreein with him, I'm just supporting him because the boss told me to do it this time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 13:18:59 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >There's been enough written this week along this line of thought that I >have >a question. Does everyone's campaign include the fact that Adam was some >overbearing, bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve always considered a brain >dead moron? > >Who let Archie and Edith Bunker into the Eden Experiment? > >What gives? > I wondered about this too, and was about to ask a) where it says this in canon and b) if not, why this seemed to have gotten into the "IN List Urban Legends" along with, for example, Laurence being clueless and all Lilim having a thing for Malakim (neither of which I remember seeing in Canon either). Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:34:59 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW) wrote: > There's been enough written this week along this line of thought > that I have a question. Does everyone's campaign include the fact > that Adam was some overbearing, bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve > always considered a brain dead moron? > > Who let Archie and Edith Bunker into the Eden Experiment? Lilith, I'd say. At least, these pictures of Adam and Eve sound very much like the way Lilith would describe them, I think. On the other hand, Jewish legend describes Adam and Eve as cosmically tall giants, wreathed about with celestial glory, and altogether superhuman by current standards. In "Paradise Lost," Milton's Adam and Eve are more human, but are still depicted as perfect physical specimens of noble minds and exalted spirits, ultimately seduced by ambition, like and by Lucifer. How are Adam and Eve depicted by Twian? I've only seen tiny excerpts of the play version. Earl P.S.: Lilith, by the way, does not appear as Adam's first wife until the Middle Ages, in a funky little anthology called "The Alphabet of Ben Sira," containing spoofs of several Bible stories. Before that, she's just a demoness, sometimes said to conceive children by men she lies with as they sleep, sometimes said to have seduced Adam after the Fall from Eden and thus to have mothered the Lilim. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:42:05 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve - -----Original Message----- From: Earl Wajenberg [mailto:earlw@mc.com] How are Adam and Eve depicted by Twian? I've only seen tiny excerpts of the play version. Earl Very human, and of course, with humor. I remember Adam's "naming" pretty much going "All you things in the air, you're flyers. All you things on the ground, you're crawlers. And all you things in the water, you're swimmers." and then going to sleep because he'd had a busy day. It is far too muvch to go into. Read Twain, it is worth it. He also has a story about a miner who eventually gets to heaven after riding around the universe on a comet. I can't recall the name though. DS1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:11:17 +0000 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >From: "Janet Anderson" >Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 13:18:59 +0000 >I wondered about this too, and was about to ask a) where it says this in >canon and b) if not, why this seemed to have gotten into the "IN List Urban >Legends" along with, for example, Laurence being clueless About girls? It's not commonly agreed that Laurence is clueless about the War, or even Council politics. Women troubles, OTOH -- well, nobody expects Sir Galahad to be the Love Doctor. :-) >and all Lilim having a thing for Malakim (neither of which I remember >seeing in Canon either). Actually, IIRC that's from the Bright Lilim section of the IPG. So it is Canon. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:11:59 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: RE: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >If you've ever read him beyond "Tom Saywer" Are you accusing me of having read "Tom Sawyer?" The only things written by Mark Twain that I actually have read are his short essays and letters. I refuse to read anything considered "classic" fiction. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:41:01 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >About girls? It's not commonly agreed that Laurence is clueless about the >War, or even Council politics. Women troubles, OTOH -- well, nobody >expects Sir Galahad to be the Love Doctor. :-) I would expect Sir Galahad to be quite comfortable in areas concerning love, at least in the courtly and chivalric senses of the word. If you envision Laurence as a European knight figure, then it would follow that he should be rather well "acquainted" with the opposite sex. (Not that terms of sex or romantic love should even apply, but for the sake of argument, why not?) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:55:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Roger Williby wrote: > I would expect Sir Galahad to be quite comfortable in areas concerning love, > at least in the courtly and chivalric senses of the word. If you envision > Laurence as a European knight figure, then it would follow that he should be > rather well "acquainted" with the opposite sex. *Sir Galahad* in particular, the son of Sir Launcelot, was completely celibate, in the most widely circulated versions of the Arthurian cycle. It would be reasonable to picture him as confused or repulsed or both by any serious sexual advances, though he would be letter perfect on the etiquette due a lady (or anyone else). Translating this to Laurence, it's hard to believe a millenia-old Archangel would be confused by flirtations from Bright Lilim or other celestial groupies, but he might well be embarassed or annoyed. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:03:46 -0400 From: EDG Subject: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord At 10:41 AM 9/6/2002 -0400, you wrote: >I would expect Sir Galahad to be quite comfortable in areas concerning >love, at least in the courtly and chivalric senses of the word. If you >envision Laurence as a European knight figure, then it would follow that >he should be rather well "acquainted" with the opposite sex. (Not that >terms of sex or romantic love should even apply, but for the sake of >argument, why not?) There's a difference between knowing the words and being able to sing them, and Laurence is quite capable of knowing every courtly nuance ever created and still being tongue-tied around the new Bright. And just to bring this post on-topic: Ethereal Discord: The Moves A celestial with this Discord is slick - too slick. Anyone of the opposite sex (regardless of gender orientation) will feel as though the celestial is hitting on them; anyone of the same sex will feel as though the celestial is causing problems with the opposite sex. This happens regardless of what the celestial is actually doing: if one with a male vessel is sitting at a cafe, by himself, eating quietly, then women will assume that he's staring at their legs (or something similar), and men will assume roughly the same thing (that he's staring at the women's legs). In terms of mechanics, this Discord penalizes all reaction rolls by its level. In addition, at levels 4-6, it acts like a Celestial Discord of 3 levels lower, unless the celestial actually *does* hit on someone of the opposite sex that day! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:10:29 -0400 From: "Roger Williby" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord *snip* Anyone of the opposite sex *snip* anyone of the same sex will feel as though the celestial is causing problems with the opposite sex. *snip* You haven't made any allowances for homosexuality here, would a gay man assume that a celestial in a male vessel is hitting on him? Or would he find himself thinking that he was in competition with said celestial? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:18:21 -0400 From: "Adams, David" Subject: RE: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord From: Roger Williby You haven't made any allowances for homosexuality here, would a gay man assume that a celestial in a male vessel is hitting on him? Or would he find himself thinking that he was in competition with said celestial? You missnipped, the text regardless of orientation in parenthesis right after your first snip. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:20:31 -0400 From: "Josh Moger" Subject: Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord >*snip* Anyone of the opposite sex *snip* anyone of the same sex will feel >as though the celestial is causing problems with the opposite sex. *snip* > >You haven't made any allowances for homosexuality here, would a gay man >assume that a celestial in a male vessel is hitting on him? Or would he find >himself thinking that he was in competition with said celestial? Well, you cut it out with your middle snip. >>>>Anyone of the opposite sex (regardless of gender orientation) will feel as though the celestial is hitting on them; anyone of the same sex will feel as though the celestial is causing problems with the opposite sex<<<< As he made a point of saying 'regardless of gender orientation' it seems that to mean nothing about competition, and more about making one person feel uncomfortable and another feeling, if anything, protective and hostile. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:24:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord Roger Williby wrote: > You haven't made any allowances for homosexuality here, would a gay man > assume that a celestial in a male vessel is hitting on him? Or would he find > himself thinking that he was in competition with said celestial? The way I read it, the Discord doesn't depend on the orientation of the viewer, but on the sex of the vessel. Thus, if a celestial has a male vessel and this Discord, everyone, male or female, straight or gay, will have the impression that he is ogling the women. You could go on to design a "Gay Moves Discord" that broadcasts the impression you are seeking to make advances on anyone of the same sex as your vessel. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:28:20 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" Laurence is one of those angels that has hugely expanded his Word from its literal meaning. Just as Novalis has taken a Word for angiosperm plants and expanded it to include mercy and peace, Laurence has taken a Word for a class of hand-held edged weapons and expanded it to include a lot of other stuff. Without the "other stuff," he would be no more qualified to be Commander of the Host than would the Angel of Knives. What is the "other stuff"? I think it includes: Honor -- everyone agrees to that, though "honor" is a very nebulous concept in modern Anglophone society. I doubt that there is an Angel of Honor distinct from Laurence. If there is, it's in trouble. Chivalry -- a sub-set of honor in some codes, but not others, and a concept going through troubled and tumultuous times. It includes ideals of fair play and courtesy. Noblesse oblige -- "Benevolent, honorable behavior considered the duty of persons of high rank or birth." In short, Laurence has made his Word be How the Strong and Great Ought to Behave., or at least this is the sector of the expanded Word that qualifies him as Commander. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:22:23 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Laurence, Courtly Manners, and a New Discord At 11:10 AM 9/6/2002 -0400, you wrote: >You haven't made any allowances for homosexuality here, would a gay man >assume that a celestial in a male vessel is hitting on him? Or would he >find himself thinking that he was in competition with said celestial? In point of fact, I have. You snipped it, however, in your reply. This Discord affects people by sex, not gender orientation. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:38:48 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" And remember, his Word is not just "Swords". He is THE Sword, as in the Sword that will strike down evil. And to be frank, that gives him a lot of Word juice to begin with, because when people think of smiting evil and such, they imagine it being a sword in nearly any culture, or at least a sword shaped weapon. He's the weapon of God, the sword against the darkness, the honorable knight, and a class of weapons that the world used as it's primary melee weapon until guns were made. (In fact, my Laurence has many looks- he often appears as a knight from any culture. He's just a likely to be a Samurai as he is a Knight. His default celestial form however, is the black winged christian warrior of God look.) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:50:23 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" At 11:28 AM 9/6/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Laurence is one of those angels that has hugely expanded his >Word from its literal meaning. Just as Novalis has taken >a Word for angiosperm plants and expanded it to include >mercy and peace, Laurence has taken a Word for a class of >hand-held edged weapons and expanded it to include a lot >of other stuff. Without the "other stuff," he would be no >more qualified to be Commander of the Host than would the >Angel of Knives. As something to think about, though, in English, one of the given meanings of "sword" is "an agency or instrument of destruction or combat" (Merriam-Webster, definition 2a). Whether the word has that meaning because of the Word, or vice versa, is a matter for debate. ;) - -EDG by which I mean, "Neat post, Earl!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:09:48 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" >In short, Laurence has made his Word be How the Strong and Great >Ought to Behave., or at least this is the sector of the expanded >Word that qualifies him as Commander. Beautiful. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 12:23:57 -0400 From: BC Petery Subject: IN>Something to chew on > Ah, yes, my conception of Lilith... I think the most interesting design I've seen for Lilith was in the Comic, _Mr. Blank._ "Lilith ... represented the genetic cradle of civilization, I wanted [her] to be as raceless as possible, containing a trace of every ethnicity." - -Christopher J. Hicks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:58:07 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Does everyone's campaign include the fact that Adam was some overbearing, bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve always considered a brain dead moron? Who let Archie and Edith Bunker into the Eden Experiment? >From the way it was going, one would think everyone looked down on Adam and Eve and Lilith was the 'hero/heroine' of the experiment. This whole discussion is well timed as I hadn't considered what happened to Adam yet in my game. Jeff =) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jctrinityRPG _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 21:51:03 +0300 From: "Bergeron, Robert F., DS1(SW)" Subject: RE: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve Roger Williby wrote: > I would expect Sir Galahad to be quite comfortable in areas concerning love, > at least in the courtly and chivalric senses of the word. If you envision > Laurence as a European knight figure, then it would follow that he should be > rather well "acquainted" with the opposite sex. - -----Original Message----- From: Earl Wajenberg [mailto:earlw@mc.com] *Sir Galahad* in particular, the son of Sir Launcelot, was completely celibate, in the most widely circulated versions of the Arthurian cycle. It would be reasonable to picture him as confused or repulsed or both by any serious sexual advances, though he would be letter perfect on the etiquette due a lady (or anyone else). Earl Sir Galahad was also the picture of courtesy and nobility at Arthur's Court and tho many woman swooned as he passed he paid court to none of them. He was the "Perfect Knight" in all the ways that his father failed. He had no problems with women. Of course, there's always the Monty Python version... Galahad: "Can't I have just a little peril?" Lancelot: "No, it's too perilous." Galahad: "I bet you're gay." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:47:37 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> A brief meditation on "The Sword" In short, Laurence has made his Word be How the Strong and Great Ought to Behave., or at least this is the sector of the expanded Word that qualifies him as Commander. Earl WOW. *applauses* Bravo! Bravo! That was beautiful. =) Jeff _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:16:17 +0000 From: "Sirea Theyal" Subject: Re: IN> Looking at Adam and Eve >Does everyone's campaign include the fact that Adam was some overbearing, >bluffing, cowardly schmuck and Eve always considered a brain dead moron? Well, my Adam was never meant to be that way, his power infected his mind and drive him to Hubris. He used to see Lilith as an equal, and even as a superior in the way selfless love can make one think. His naming power accumulated until it was like a Word-bound gone mad- he couldn't control his own power and it went to his head. > >Who let Archie and Edith Bunker into the Eden Experiment? > >From the way it was going, one would think everyone looked down on Adam and >Eve and Lilith was the 'hero/heroine' of the experiment. Well, actually, my Lilith was very immature and irresponsible at first. She got all huffy with her own wounded pride, and failed to see what was happening to Adam before it was too late. She ran of like a child, and now sorta regrets what she did. > >This whole discussion is well timed as I hadn't considered what happened to >Adam yet in my game. > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2765 ********************************